We come to amendment No. 114 in the name of Deputy Yates. Amendments Nos. 115 and 116 are related and it is suggested to take 114, 115 and 116 together.
SECTION 30.
I move amendment No. 114:
In page 26, subsection (1), line 46, after "grading" to insert "and where such staff are drawn from the Department of the Environment or local authorities, each appointment shall be subject to the consent of the individual concerned".
What I am seeking here is that when staff are transferred from local authorities and/or the Department of the Environment to the National Roads Authority it should be done on a voluntry basis, that there would be no jackboot transfers, that people would be given the option. I understand they are protected when it comes to retaining their grades. For example, a county engineer in Donegal might not want to move to Dublin. Such moves should be voluntary.
I support that. I understand that some of the amendments tabled by the Minister were the result of representations made in this connection, but I think Deputy Yates's proposal would copperfasten the voluntary nature of any staff transfers.
Before dealing with the substantive point of these amendments, I want to clarify the purpose of sections 30 and 31. The purpose of section 31 is to provide for the transfer of staff from public authorities and my Department to the National Roads Authority. The purpose of section 30 is to enable the National Roads Authority to employ its own staff. Section 30 will apply where, for example, the National Roads Authority advertises a particular job but it will have nothing to do with the staff transfers envisaged in section 31. If the National Roads Authority advertises a job and a civil servant or a local authority official applies for it, and is offered an appointment, the terms and conditions will be determined under section 30. There will be no question of that person being entitled to continue the conditions of service applying to him or her as a civil servant or local authority employee. The decision to apply for and accept the job would be entirely at the discretion of the individual. Accordingly, Deputy Yates's amendment to section 30 seems more appropriate to section 31 and I will discuss it in that context.
I already indicated in my Second Stage reply that I did not think it appropriate to give individuals a veto under section 31. The realities are that the functions to be carried out by the National Roads Authority are, to a significant extent, already performed by officials of my Department reporting to an interim non-statutory authority. If the statutory National Roads Authority is to be effective, it is essential that these officials continue to work for the new body. They have the requisite expertise, they will provide continuity and they have built up excellent working relations with local authorities. It would be unreasonable and foolish to deprive the National Roads Authority of this talent bank and expect it to recruit its staff from scratch.
At this point I want to stress that I have not decided what mechanism to use to provide for the continuity of staffing to the National Roads Authority. As I mentioned, departmental staff could be transferred under section 31 but another option would be for my Department to provide staffing services to the National Roads Authority under section 32. Section 31 provides an enabling power for the transfer to the National Roads Authority of staff not only from the Department of the Environment but from local authorities or other public bodies where their principal duties relate to functions being taken over by the National Roads Authority. It is not intended that there would be a wholesale transfer of staff from local authorities or other public bodies though the option of selective transfer or provision of services is being provided for.
While I cannot accept the opposition amendments I am, however, moving a separate amendment to section 31 which will provide for prior notification of and consultation with employees and of trade unions where transfers are proposed. It is my intention that there will be full consultation with staff interests before any final decisions are taken. The amendment also provides that the prior agreement of the National Roads Authority in addition to that of the Minister will be required before anybody is transferrd from any public body other than the Department of the Environment. This was suggested by the National Roads Authority and I consider it reasonable.
Does the Minister have anything else to say on section 31?
That is all I have to say.
I think the Minister's amendment No. 116 is an improvement. If push comes to shove it seems that if staff do not wish to be transferred but if a public authority want to transfer they will be transferred. That is the bottom line.
That is the reason I am over here.
I do not know if that is reasonable. Is this standard procedure in other areas where people have moved from the Civil Service to the semi-State, like Coillte Teoranta and other semi-State bodies?
Yes.
Perhaps consultation with the trade unions could be started early so that we will know the position on Report Stage.
It is my understanding that transfers to new State bodies are on a voluntary basis. What the Minister is suggesting would be a new departure.
Absolutely not; it is standard practice.
I do not know of any case where staff were transferred without their agreement.
An example would be the Central Statistics Office moving to Cork; there is a dispute about that at the moment.
That is a different issue, it is a relocation. They do not have a change of job. Coillte Teoranta is an example.
I am not happy with the position, but I will have further consultations with the trade union.
Would the move be temporary?
Not necessarily. It would be for as long as the NRA exist. We are not going to resolve the matter today. I would ask that these consultations be brought forward and perhaps the transcript of this debate could be sent to the union officials.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 30 agreed to.