Special Committee Pigs and Bacon Bill, 1934 debate -
Wednesday, 10 Apr 1935

SECTION 68.

Question proposed :—" That Section is stand part of the Bill."

Deputy Dillon

I should like to ask the Minister a question with reference to sub-section (6), which reads as follows :—

(6) Neither the Minister nor any inspector shall be liable for any loss or damage arising from the exercise by an inspector of the powers conferred upon him by this section and no action shall lie against the consignor or any other person for or on account of any such loss or damage as aforesaid.

An inspector can seize part of a consignment, or he can take a sample. Is it suggested, therefore, that if a buyer in England purchases a parcel of bacon from an Irish factory and the Department confiscates a bale from that parcel, the consignee must pay for the whole parcel and has no remedy against the consignor ?

Minister for Agriculture

I do not think that is so. This means that a consignee could not take an action against a consignor who had contracted to deliver so many bales by such a date. If there was any delay the consignor would have this as a defence. I do not think it would go further than that. As a matter of fact, this particular sub-section was referred to by the bacon curers when they met me, but when they were told that only something like three pounds of meat had been seized in something like seven years under the Fresh Meat Act, they said they thought that they would take a chance that it was not going to be operated to their disadvantage.

Deputy Dillon

Do you not think, from the point of view of our foreign markets, that sub-section should be amended to make it clear that the consignee would not be liable to pay for any part of the parcel confiscated ?

Minister for Agriculture

I think there is a sort of legal code built up in connection with this. In the case of eggs, there have been quite a number of confiscations, and I think the consignee has to get what he ordered before he pays. The consignee does not pay for the eggs confiscated.

Deputy Dillon

I imagine there must be something in the Eggs Act to provide for that, because once goods are consigned and carried forward to a railway company the liability of the consignor ends. Nevertheless, if after the eggs have been handed to the railway company, eggs are abstracted by the Department at the port, long after they have become the liability of the consignee, still the consignee pays only for as many cases of eggs as reach him. I imagine there must be some section in the Eggs Act to provide for that.

Minister for Agriculture

I do not know, but I would be inclined to say that there is a similar section in the Eggs Act. I may be wrong.

Deputy Haslett

The same question arose under the Eggs Act, as I raised it with the Minister's predecessor, where power such as this was given to an inspector to enter any place. The places that my friends are interested in were the railway stations and the ports. They held that eggs were so perishable that if the inspection caused them to miss a boat or a market there was nothing to protect them and they were alarmed at that. The only thing we could get was an assurance from the Minister that it would not be operated in such a way as would interfere with their trade.

Deputy Dillon

The point I am raising is not the same as the one to which the Deputy refers. My point is as to the liability of a consignee for a bale of bacon seized. This Bill seems to have deprived him of his remedy against the consignor. However, it will meet my objection if the Minister looks into it and satisfies himself that this section does not make the consignee liable for the cost of a bale of bacon which has been seized by the authorities.

Minister for Agriculture

I shall look into that point.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 69 to 73, inclusive, agreed to.

Chairman

Before we go to Part III of the Bill, there are amendments by Deputy Belton that it seemed to me will produce very involved discussion, if they are taken in numerical order. I suggest that we should discuss Deputy Belton's amendments from 169 to 175 before we deal with Parts III and IV. These are amendments dealing with Joint Board.

Deputy Belton

So long as they are not prejudicing the others.

Chairman

That will give Deputy Belton a chance of getting a decision on the question of a Joint Board.

Deputy Dillon

Are the two things inconsistent ?

Deputy Belton

If the Bill is passed as it stands, my amendment will be cut out, and the work will be duplicated. The suggestion made by the Chairman is a good one.

Deputy Dillon

I understand the amendments propose the establishment of a new Board.

Deputy Belton

A Joint Board.

Deputy Dillon

To be constituted from members of the two existing Boards.

Deputy Belton

I do not agree with the constitution of the existing Boards.

Deputy Dillon

The Bill provides for the setting up of a Joint Board, constituted from the members of the two existing Boards. The Deputy does not propose to abolish that.

Deputy Belton

No. I suggest a limitation of their powers. The Joint Board, if adopted, takes away some powers from the other two Boards.

Deputy Dillon

If the latter amendments are adopted, numerous consequential amendments will be necessary, withdrawing certain powers from these Boards.

Deputy Belton

Exactly.

Minister for Agriculture

This is the best way to deal with the matter.

Deputy McGovern

Would it not be better to deal with the constitution of the Pig Marketing Board first ?

Minister for Agriculture

The Committee can discuss the constitution of the two Boards here.

Deputy Dillon

The difficulty is that there are certain alternative proposals with reference to the constitution of these Boards. I do not know whether it is desirable for Deputy Belton to move his amendments now or to discuss the whole question of the constitution of the Boards on a section.

Deputy Belton

Can the Committee not discuss any other relevant amendments when discussing my amendments ? If an amendment of mine would cut across another amendment, why not discuss the other relevant amendment before adopting mine ?

Minister for Agriculture

I think amendment 169 will allow a discussion on the constitution of the two Boards.

Deputy Belton

I move amendment No. 169 :—

After Section 153 to insert the following new section :—

PART V.

154.—(1) There shall be established in accordance with this Part of this Act a Joint Board (in this Act referred to as the Joint Board) to be styled and known as the Joint Pigs and Bacon Marketing Board, to fulfil certain functions of common concern to Pigs and Bacon Marketing Boards as hereinafter set out.

(2) The Joint Board shall consist of all members of the Pigs Marketing Board and all members of the Bacon Marketing Board which shall be known as the Constituent Boards.

I put down this amendment because I was not satisfied that there was equitable representation of the two main interests concerned on the two Boards. There is an earlier amendment affecting the constitution of the Bacon Marketing Board and the Pigs Marketing Board which I would prefer. By that the Bacon Marketing Board would be constituted as originally proposed in the Bill and the Pigs Marketing Board constituted exclusively of Pig producers. Then, there would be two boards, one consisting exclusively of curers and the other exclusively of pig producers. There are matters that the Bacon Marketing Board is given the exclusive right to decide and matters that the Pigs Marketing Board is given the exclusive right to decide. I refer to the production order of the Bacon Marketing Board, which affects pig production, in the making of which the Bacon Marketing Board has exclusive authority. The bacon curers have, in effect, exclusive authority to make the order, because it is provided that there will be seven bacon curers, or representatives of curers on the Bacon Marketing Board. On any matters affecting curing interests those seven curers will agree and the chairman will have no authority except formally to say that they agreed and the order is made. That gives the whole authority on big matters to the bacon curers. The Pigs Marketing Board will consist of three pig producers nominated by the Minister. We will assume that they will be three perfect representatives of pig producers. The other three, making 50 per cent. of the entire ordinary members of the Board, are nominated by the Bacon Marketing Board, directly representing the curers, or representatives elected by curers on the Pig Marketing Board. In fixing the price of bacon or in the matter of pig production they have full authority to snap their fingers at the chairman, provided they are unanimous. From the very nature of their interests it is difficult for them ever to be unanimous, because if pig producers put up a fixed price the bacon curers will say: " We cannot work at that price." There you have the element of disagreement, with the result that in all matters seriously affecting pig producers' interests you have the snag in the Board that there will be always dissent. It is then the duty of the chairman to make a decision on the evidence put up by both sides. The result boils down to this, that the chairman of the Pigs Marketing Board will be the Board in all matters of that kind, because there will not be agreement amongst the members because of the constitution of the Board. I can quite understand that a Pigs Marketing Board, consisting entirely of producers, would not be a feasible proposition, because it might fix the price of bacon and destroy the whole trade, or fix a price for pigs that would be too dear for curers. There are interests to be served in the Pigs Marketing Board that would, in my opinion, be best served by a Board consisting entirely of pig producers. There are interests of the curers dovetailed in the industry as a whole that would be best served by a board of bacon curers, as is proposed in the Bill. There are matters of common concern, such as the production order to be made by the Bacon Marketing Board, that are of vital concern to pig producers, and they should have a voice in that, if only to state their case. The fixing of the price of pigs is a matter of vital concern not only to the industry as a whole but to the bacon curers. I mention these two at random. There may be other matters that should be decided by a composite board. I have no fixed ideas as to what the powers of the Chairman of the Joint Board should be. I am concerned only with the principle. Boiled down it amounts to this, that the bacon curers would have a board that concerns them, the pig producers a board that concerns them, so that a Joint Board in matters of common interest would be a distinct improvement to the Bill, and to the industry, and would, I am sure, ease the Minister's position, as all interests would be given a right, in matters of common concern, to have a say. That is my case for the establishment of the Joint Board. I do not know if what I heard is true, or if the Minister knows of it, that separate Boards did not work well in Northern Ireland, and that it is contemplated establishing a Board consisting of three pig men, three bacon men, and three members nominated by the Minister and to dissolve the other two Boards. While I do not say that I favour that, I would favour it in preference to the two Boards we have here.

Minister for Agriculture

As the Deputy has put the matter to me I was not aware of that.

Deputy Belton

I only heard it on Thursday or Friday last.

Minister for Agriculture

I do not think Deputy Belton's fabric for constructing these Boards differs very much from what is in the Bill. Deputy Belton starts by having Bacon and Pigs Boards. We need not go into the numbers, but they are all curers on one Board and all producers on the other Board.

Deputy Belton

That is my idea.

Minister for Agriculture

When you combine them you have half and half, a Joint Board. We have a Bacon Board of curers.

Deputy Belton

Which deals with the production order.

Minister for Agriculture

I shall come to that in a minute. I want to deal with the question of constitution first. We might, if you like, have had a Pig's Board, composed entirely of producers, and, in that way, have two boards but we would find it very difficult to get any sort of cohesion or agreement between the two boards.

Deputy Belton

Let the Chairman do that.

Minister for Agriculture

We have a Joint Board which we call the Pigs Board. The only difference between the two schemes is that we have not a producers' board.

Deputy Belton

The Minister will appreciate the confidence producers would feel if they had a board of their own.

Minister for Agriculture

Let me deal with the working out of those proposals. The first matter of which Deputy Belton speaks is the production order. There is an amendment down by me which proposes to change this question of dealing with the surplus bacon from the Bacon Board to the Pigs Board. That makes a great difference from Deputy Belton's point of view.

Deputy Belton

That is Section 108, but the Pigs Board is still not a pig producers' board.

Minister for Agriculture

In practice, how will it work out ?

Deputy Dillon

Perhaps I will be permitted to interrupt the Minister at this point. The Minister assents to Deputy Belton's statement that the Pigs Board is not a producers' board yet.

Minister for Agriculture

Not entirely.

Deputy Dillon

Deputy McGovern has an amendment down suggesting that certain members of the Pigs Board should be elected by the producers.

Deputy Belton

That question will come up for consideration later.

Deputy Dillon

That proposal is to give elective representation to the producers on the Pigs Board.

Minister for Agriculture

I should like to deal with the working out of the matter in practice. Take the production order. The Pigs Board fixes certain price for pigs and the Bacon Board know what they can get for bacon. They know the different regulations with regard to levies, bounties and so farth and they have a fair idea of what the market can absorb. They make a production order which will give, in their opinion, as many pigs as they can deal with. The Bacon Board stops there. If the Pigs Board think that the Bacon Board did not make their order high enough for killings, they can say " We will deal with the surplus." By the production order there, you get the very same thing done as Deputy Belton is seeking to have done by the Joint Board. In the end, the Joint Board, composed of producers and curers, deal with the surplus.

Deputy Belton

I have considered that point. If the bacon curers erred to a considerable extent by making the production order very low or by consistently keeping the production orders low in order to facilitate themselves in getting rid of their bacon at a good price, a situation would be created in which that Section 108 could be brought into operation. But if they only err very slightly, you cannot make a case for that. If they are merely conservative as regards their production orders, they will be cribbing the price of pigs—creating a surplus, lowering the price and getting well away with their article. Then, again, when the pig producers on the Pigs Board feel that they should go in and manufacture the surplus pigs into bacon, they are only 50 against 50 on that Board, which means that the question of manufacturing these pigs into bacon will depnd on the Chairman.

Minister for Agriculture

The same difficulty arises in the case of the Joint Board. That is also a case of 50-50.

Deputy Belton

The pig producers willl have a chance of making their case before the Chairman and exchanging views with the curers on the question of the size of the bacon production order.

Deputy Dillon

Will they not have that opportunity on the Pigs Board as it is to be reconstituted by the Minister's amendment ?

Minister for Agriculture

Not in respect of the production order.

Deputy Dillon

I thought the Minister said he was going to transfer that ?

Minister for Agriculture

No. I was referring to the manufacture of surplus bacon.

Deputy Smith

Is it conceivable that the Bacon Marketing Board would deliberately set out to have a small production order, seeing that that Board would know the quota with which they would be dealing and would have a reasonable knowledge of the general demand for what they were going to turn out. I imagine that these men would only be too glad to produce enough bacon to meet these demands rather than insist on under-production, as Deputy Dillon suggests.

Deputy Belton

They are not working to a quota on the whole of their production. They are not working to a quota in respect of the home market.

Minister for Agriculture

But they would like to fill the home market, too.

Deputy Belton

If there are three sides of bacon and only a demand for two, it is very different to the bacon curers if you reverse the position.

Minister for Agriculture

The Pigs Marketing Board will fix the price and will allow a certain amount to the bacon curer for his work, including profit. I do not think that it would suit the Bacon Marketing Board to have few pigs and big profits. The Pigs Marketing Board could come along and say " Last month you got big profits; we are going to increase the levy and get that back."

Deputy Belton

The pig producers cannot say that because they have no board. The Pigs Marketing Board is as much a bacon curers' board as it is a pig producers' board.

Minister for Agriculture

Nobody would, I think, suggest that a Board consisting of only producers should fix the price.

Deputy Belton

I do not suggest that but I do suggest that the Joint Board fix it and fix the production order.

Minister for Agriculture

In the Bill, it is provided that the Joint Board fix the price

Deputy Belton

You have a Bacon Curers' Board and a Joint Board but no Pig Producers' Board.

Minister for Agriculture

They would have no function. What could they do ? There is no order which they would have to make.

Deputy Dillon

The purpose of the Deputy's proposal is, I think, to ensure that the producer will not be salted, that at every season he will get the cost of production, plus a fair margin of profit.

Deputy Belton

And that the producer should be given confidence by having a Board to look after his interests, as the curers have a Board to look after theirs

Deputy Dillon

The interest of the producer is to get a fair price for his product allowing him a reasonable margin of profit. If there were inserted in the Bill an amendment providing that, in fixing the price of pigs, due regard be had to the producers' overhead costs and that these costs be set out in detail, with the margin of profit, surely the interest of the pig producer would be effectively protected at all times.

Deputy Belton

That would be an improvement.

Deputy McGovern

If pig producers knew that they had a right of representation which was recognised by the Minister it would have a psychological effect on them.

Deputy Dillon

Perhaps the Minister would indicate now whether he proposes to accept amendment 147.

Minister for Agriculture

Of all those amendments, I prefer 175. That takes into account the cost of production but I hold that you must take everything else into account first.

Deputy Dillon

Amendment 147 sets out certain things which are to be taken into consideration, and how they are to be taken into consideration, and it requires publication of the findings with reference to them.

Minister for Agriculture

I should like to have a discussion on that point because there are difficulties with regard to it.

Deputy Dillon

If the Pigs Marketing Board is to be constituted as in the Bill, will the Minister accept amendment 147, which places upon them the obligation to take into consideration the cost of production—labour, rates on agricultural land and buildings, feeding stuffs, pig mortality and disease, interest on capital and depreciation of equipment—and to set out in Iris Oifigiúil particulars of these costs. In my opinion, that would give an effective guarantee of an economic price for the producer. If we get that, it does not seem to me to matter very much how the Pigs Marketing Board is constituted. We would have laid before us, under this amendment, the grounds on which they fix the price order for pigs.

Minister for Agriculture

That amendment could not be accepted in toto because it follows a different principle from that which we have tried to follow in the Bill.

Chairman

I do not think that we should discuss the merits of the amendment now. We shall deal with the amendment in its proper place. Deputy Dillon merely wants to know whether the Minister proposes to accept the amendment or not.

Minister for Agriculture

I should be inclined to follow the lines of amendment No. 175, the last paragraph of which refers to " cost of production of pigs and particularly cost of feeding-stuffs for previous four months."

Deputy Haslett

I think that there is a good deal to be said for the substance of Deputy Belton's proposal. It is desirable that confidence should be established in the minds of pig producers by giving them representation. If you take sub-sections 2 and 3 of Section 120, dealing with the constitution of the Pigs Marketing Board, and if you sought to establish that the producers have a look in there, I am afraid you would have a sore time of it. The elected members of this Pigs Marketing Board are to be ordinary members of the Bacon Marketing Board. The nominated members are to be persons representative of the pig producers in Saorstát Eireann. That may work out all right in the end but, somehow, it does not establish confidence. The Minister mentioned on Second Reading his difficulty in getting pig producers adequately represented. That is a problem to be faced later.

Minister for Agriculture

I had not finished dealing with Deputy Belton's amendment. As Deputy Belton says, there is a board of bacon curers who will look after their own interests. How is that done ? By dividing amongst themselves what bacon there is and what pigs there are and settling what quantity of bacon must be released from cold store and that sort of thing. If we were to deal with the pig producers on the same lines and to say to them: " You must produce not more than 1,000,000 pigs per year," it would be quite sensible to have a board composed of producers alone to divide it among themselves, but we are not doing that. There is no function under this Bill, in my opinion, for a board of producers alone, because there is nothing they can deal with unless we are going to limit production. Then, we would certainly have a board of producers alone and say to them: " Divide 1,000,000 pigs and do it whatever way you like ; the bacon curers are not going to interfere with you." There is another thing which I should like to mention and it is that it is extremly difficult in respect of a Bill like this to get any sort of agreement. The only way in which we thought we could get a Bill like this across was to stick as closely as we possibly could to the recommendations of the Tribunal. In the establishment of these boards we did that, and we only departed from it in the matter of the extra powers of the Chairman. As a matter of fact, it is almost 12 months ago now since we called every single bacon curer in the country to a meeting in the Department, at which I told them that there was a difficulty arising in regard to this Bacon Marketing Board and that it was possible that, say, the large and medium curers might combine and wipe out the small men or that the small men might combine against the large and medium men, and that I thought there should be the power of veto given to the Chairman, to which they unanimously agreed. If you depart from what has been agreed to in regard to a Bill like this, it is extremely difficult to get things right again with all the interests concerned. Of course, if the Minister makes an agreement with the curers which is unjust, naturally the Dáil should depart from it, but unless there is good cause shown, I think we should not depart from it.

Deputy McGovern

With regard to this representative Board, who is to say whether the pig producers are getting a fair show or not ?

Chairman

That is a separate question which will be reached later on.

Deputy Smith

The proposals set out by Deputy Belton are not, to my mind, as clear as the proposals contained in the Bill. As the Minister says, the bacon curers are only interested in the distribution of the quota allotted for the time being. They are also interested in seeing that home requirements in bacon are met, and I could not imagine these men deliberately setting out to reduce production in order to do what Deputy Belton seems to fear. On the other hand, you have the Pigs Marketing Board, and what could be a fairer arrangement than to have three representatives of the pig producers and three representatives of the bacon curers, presided over by a chairman, to fix and determine the price at which pigs will be bought and sold for the period In the event of failure to agree on the numbers, the chairman hears the case from the bacon curers' end and also from the producers' end, and, after hearing the case for and against, he fixes the price at which pigs will be sold. I think that that is the best way in which you can meet the producers' viewpoint. Deputy Belton admitted that it would not be fair to have the Pigs Marketing Board entirely composed of producers and, seeing that he has admitted that, I do not see how he can get any fairer means of determining the price than to have both interests present, as in a Court, with a Chairman in the same position as a judge, hearing the evidence on both sides and determining, in the event of failure to agree, what will be a fair price for a certain period.

Deputy Belton

That is my proposition.

Deputy Smith

That is what is contained in the Bill.

Deputy Belton

It is my proposition.

Deputy Smith

That is the section which deals with the Pig Marketing Board. That is its constitution ; that is what is in the Bill. I say that it is a question far above and distinct from the question of the disposal of bacon because it is, to my mind, a matter entirely for those who are in that business. I cannot see the point in the sort of involved scheme which Deputy Belton recommends. To my mind, it is not half as clear or as workable as the proposals contained here.

Deputy McGovern

Would the Deputy approve of nomination ? How can they be representative ? I say that they are not at all representative of the pig producers.

Chairman

That does not affect the principle we are discussing.

Deputy Dillon

Surely, the question very acutely arises as to the constitution of the alternative to Deputy Belton's scheme ? Deputy Belton puts up one scheme and the Minister puts up another. If we are to choose between the two, we must know what the two schemes are. Deputy McGovern says that a great deal of the objections to the Minister's scheme would disappear if the producers' representatives on that Board were elected and I think it is very relevant to inquire whether the Minister intends to provide for the election of the representatives on the Pig Marketing Board in place of nomination as at present suggested by the Bill. Until we know that, we cannot fairly compare the Minister's scheme with Deputy Belton's.

Deputy Belton

I should like to submit, with regard to the point made by Deputy Dillon, that it is a point which does not exactly arise.

Deputy McGovern

I say that they will not be representative as the Bill is drafted at present.

Deputy Belton

We are not on the question of representation or nomination at the moment. Deputy Smith has made a point that nothing can be fairer than that equal representation to decide the price of pigs. That is precisely my proposition with regard to the Joint Board ; that is what I am aiming at.

Deputy Smith

It was not the Joint Board I was referring to.

Deputy Belton

I know it was not, but the Joint Board as conceived by me has another function. It will have the power to deal with another matter which makes for the same function of price fixing. I should like to put to Deputy Smith that if the Bacon Marketing Board, in making a production order, is it not doing something that directly affects the price of pigs. I should like Deputy Smith's answer to that.

Deputy Smith

Yes, of course, but——

Deputy Belton

It does. Now, that is the answer.

Deputy Smith

They are not deliberately doing something which affects the price.

Deputy Belton

They are; they are fixing a production order for a period.

Minister for Agriculture

They do not fix the price of pigs.

Deputy Belton

No ; they do not say that a pig shall be 50/- a cwt. or 5/- a cwt., but they say that the number of pigs consumed for the making of bacon within the period will be a certain number, without any regard to the number of pigs through the country. That is the outlet. That is the pipe through which the pigs must flow, and the number of pigs that can go through that pipe in that period automatically fixes the price, and what is more important, fixes the demand for the consumption of pigs. Deputy Smith said, and I agree with him, that there should be a Board with a fifty-fifty representation of bacon men and pig men who meet to fix the price of pigs. It was the ideal, he said, and surely the argument is equally strong that a fifty-fifty representation should meet and fix that production order, having regard to the elements stated in the Bill ?

Deputy McGovern

Yes, on a representative basis.

Deputy Belton

We will come to that later on. In that, I am with Deputy McGovern, but we are not on it just yet. The Pigs Marketing Board, as it is here, has no right over a production order in respect of bacon. What I visualise is that the making of that production order should be lifted from the Bacon Marketing Board and given to the Joint Board. The fixing of the price of pigs should be lifted from the Pig Marketing Board and given to the Joint Board. In that Joint Board we have equal representation for the consideration of all the elements that go to the fixing of the price of pigs.

Deputy Smith

Would Deputy Belton say if the inclusion on the Joint Board of pig producers will increase the market for bacon in any way ?

Deputy Belton

There is an amendment down, on which I am not very keen, that there should be one pig producer on the Bacon Marketing Board and one bacon curer on the Pig Marketing Board. I would rather, if the Joint Board is conceded, have exclusive Boards.

Minister for Agriculture

This is all that is between us. In the Bill, we have a Bacon Marketing Board or a Joint Board, if you like.

Deputy Belton

That is right.

Minister for Agriculture

And all Deputy Belton wants it a producers' board.

Deputy Belton

But I take the production order from the Bacon Marketing Board and give it to the Joint Board.

Minister for Agriculture

I think that is all that is between us. I do not think the Deputy can make any case for a producers' board, because they would have nothing to do. The only thing left is the taking of the production order from the Bacon Marketing Board and giving it to the Pig Marketing Board. That would meet all Deputy Belton's arguments.

Deputy Haslett

There is one argument it would not meet. Deputy Smith made the point that as long as you have three members representing the producers, it is right in principle, but they are elected by the Bacon Marketing Board, so that the whole——

Deputy Smith

They are not elected by the Bacon Marketing Board.

Minister for Agriculture

The bacon representatives are.

Deputy Smith

The three producers are nominated by the Minister, but the other three members are elected by the Bacon Marketing Board.

Deputy Dillon

I have listened to the discussion between Deputy Belton and the Minister, and, so far as I am concerned, if the Minister will provide for the election of the members referred to in sub-section (3) of Section 120 by the producers as opposed to their nomination, and will provide that the Pig Marketing Board shall take into consideration the relevant matters referred to in certain amendments on the paper, to wit, cost of production of pigs, when fixing a price order for pigs, I am prepared to support the scheme as it stands in the Bill, but if he cannot give either of those things, I am of opinion that we must try to hammer out some scheme in conformity with that proposed by Deputy Belton. If he gives undertakings under these two heads, the Pig Marketing Board will function quite satisfactorily.

Minister for Agriculture

I do not think there is very much between us. Deputy McGovern has a point of view; Deputy Belton has a point of view; Deputy Dillon has a point of view; and I have the Bill here. I think the two points raised by Deputy Dillon are the only two points in dispute. There is, I should say, a third point raised by Deputy Dillon. The three points are :— (1) that the production order should be a matter for the Joint Board—I call it the Pigs Board, but others refer to it as the Joint Board; (2) that we should have elected representatives to represent the producers, and (3) that the cost of production of pigs should be considered in fixing the price. If any Deputy can put up a workable scheme with regard to election, you may be quite sure I shall welcome it. Personally, I believe we should allow the Bill to stand as it is in respect of the first Board, that is, that which the Minister nominates, because I am afraid that if you have a method of election to the first Board, it will take months to get into operation, no matter how simple you may try to make the scheme. I am personally keen on getting some sort of a section drafted—I have failed to get it for Committee Stage because it is so difficult for the Report Stage, which will not now be taken until after the Easter holidays. I will try to introduce a fairly wide section requiring the Minister to set up machinery of some sort for future elections. Personally, I am altogether in favour of that if it can be done. I think I can truthfully say that in any case where the Minister has the power of nomination he gets very much more blame than kudos.

Deputy Belton

The Minister would be very foolish to nominate if he can avoid it.

Minister for Agriculture

I think the proposal that the first Board be nominated ought to stand.

Deputy McGovern

Why not allow the county committees of agriculture to nominate representatives for the first Board ?

Deputy Maguire

Does Deputy Belton mean that under his proposition there would be equal representation on the Joint Board for the pig producers and the bacon curers ?

Deputy Belton

I meant the two Boards to come together. It would be a case of six and six.

Deputy Maguire

I take it that the purpose of their work mainly would be to determine production ? That is the only point where the producers would come in.

Deputy Belton

The production of bacon and the price-fixing of pigs.

Deputy Maguire

The producer, of course, would be materially interested in the question of production, but we must also assume that the bacon curers would have a material interest in determining the approximate output that they could market.

Deputy Belton

At a price, and that is the whole snag.

Deputy Maguire

Might not the producers be liable to interfere unfairly with the bacon curers, who, after all, will have the question of maximum output in their minds ?

Deputy Belton

At a price and a profit. The production order, of course, materially affects the price of pigs.

Deputy Maguire

I see that both parties share in either the profits or losses ultimately under the Bill.

Deputy Belton

It was because of that that the Minister saw the necessity of having joint representation on the Board that is to fix the price of pigs. Why does he not also see the necessity for joint representation on the Board that is to fix the production order which indirectly—perhaps I should say directly—affects the price of pigs ?

Deputy Maguire

If the Minister's function is to allot quotas and the market is there, then neither the Board as proposed nor a Joint Board can to any extent determine the market or output. There might be the margin that the Deputy spoke of, but assuming that you had the whole market in the hands of producers alone ?

Deputy Belton

But I would not.

Chairman

I am afraid that Deputy Belton and Deputy Maguire are carrying on this little side-issue on their own.

Deputy Dillon

May I inquire through you, Mr. Chairman, from Deputy Belton, how the bacon production order could have any very vital effect on the price-fixing of pigs if there is a provision that an economic price for pigs, based on the costs of production, must be fixed by the Pigs Marketing Board ?

Deputy Belton

In theory, the Deputy is right, but we know in practice the sort of interpretation that is put on certain elements in building up a thing. It is because of that that I would like to have representatives of the other interest there to press their interpretation.

Deputy Dillon

I suggest to the Deputy that if we have elected representatives of the pig producers on the Pigs Marketing Board that they would be there to make their case when the price of pigs is being fixed. They will make their representations then as to the correct interpretation of the costs of production. Further, the publication in the Iris Oifigiúil will entitle us, if we believe that a system of under-estimation of the costs of production has been pursued by the Chairman of the Pigs Marketing Board, to raise the matter in the Dáil.

Deputy Belton

And we all know the answer the Minister would give if such a question were raised. What satisfaction would it be to the man who had sold his pigs as to whether the order was right or wrong ? What I am concerned with, mainly, is making the machine as near perfect as possible. I am not concerned with the facilities that we may have for pointing out flaws in the machine. It is the satisfactory working of the machine that I am concerned with.

Deputy Dillon

May I remind the Deputy that the pig producers have far more votes than the bacon curers, and if we are going to create a situation in which the pig producers will be defending their interests on the basis of the costs of production at the polling booth then, with all deference to the Minister for Agriculture, may I say they can make their voices much more emphatically heard in the Fianna Fáil clubs than the bacon curers ?

Deputy Belton

If I were on the public platform I think I would have a good answer to make to the Deputy, but as I am sitting here on this Committee I will refrain. What I am concerned with here is to make this Bill bullet-proof against Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and all the rest. That is what we here are concerned with.

Minister for Agriculture

I am prepared to give an assurance that I will introduce on the Report Stage an amendment for the setting up of some sort of machinery for the holding of elections after the first. Are the members of the Committee agreed on that ?

Deputy Dillon

I accept that.

Deputy Beegan

Is the Minister agreeing to the principle of a Joint Board ?

Minister for Agriculture

No. I am dealing now with the question of the election of members. After the first election, I am agreeable that machinery should be set up for the subsequent elections.

Deputy Belton

It was only since this Bill came on the scene that I discovered that there was some sort of a pig producers' organisation. When I read the Report of the Pig Tribunal I found that that particular organisation gave evidence before it. When you have pig producers organised in that way—of people who went to the trouble of collecting and giving evidence before the Pig Tribunal—I would give them the right, even at the first election, of either electing a number of pig producers on the Board or, at any rate, of putting a panel before the Minister to nominate representatives from. I think the Bill visualises procedure of that kind.

Minister for Agriculture

Of course, it is impossible to put everything into a Bill, but in practice what will happen is this : The Department will write to organisations such as Deputy Belton has referred to for lists of names, and also to other organisations that we may think would be useful in submitting names. In that way we hope to build up a panel of 50 or 60 names. There are other points to be taken into consideration such as to try and get representation for producers from the northern parts, the southern and the midlands. As well you have to bear in mind that you do not want to get three representatives of similar types of producers. One, for instance, would need to be representative of the pig producers, another of the small men and so on. You have also to be careful that the three are not representative of the one type of production. One, for instance, should be a man representative of those who grow their own feeding-stuffs, another of those who buy feeding-stuffs. These are all matters that would have to be taken into consideration by the Minister when making nominations.

Deputy Smith

As regards the selection of the three representatives on the Pigs Marketing Board I would prefer to see it in the hands of the Minister. My reason is that I believe that no machinery you might set up would have regard to the important considerations which the Minister has just outlined as necessary in selecting representatives. I could not imagine any Minister ignoring producers to such an extent that he would select people who would not be of the type just referred to by the Minister. I think it would be very difficult indeed to set up machinery that would give the same satisfaction as the method outlined by the Minister.

Deputy McGovern

If the matter were left in the hands of the Minister he might find himself in a very difficult position. For instance, he might find himself up against very strong pressure from an organisation of pig producers, so that the small producers would have no representation on the Board at all. The result would be that the big feeders would get more than their fair share of representation on the Board. I think the fairest way would be to divide the country into areas on the basis of production, and on that basis fix the machinery for election.

Deputy Dillon

I think that the Minister's proposal is reasonable. In view of the fact that it is necessary to get the Pigs Marketing Board into operation at the earliest possible date, it is reasonable that the Minister should nominate the first three, and that hereafter the members representing the producers should be elected. I take it that the Deputy would not stand out for the setting up of machinery for the first election of the Pigs Marketing Board ?

Deputy Smith

I think we would need to be satisfied that the machinery to be set up for elections would be such as to ensure that the considerations mentioned by the Minister as requisite in selecting three for the first Board would also be borne in mind at the subsequent elections.

Minister for Agriculture

I think it would be impossible to do that.

Deputy Smith

Then I think it would be wrong to set up machinery for the subsequent elections, because I am afraid the result would be that, so far as the pig producers are concerned, the representation on the Board would be confined to one part of the country, and that the other parts would be completely ignored.

Deputy McGovern

Not if you divide the country into areas. In the northern parts we have nearly all small producers.

Deputy Maguire

I am inclined to hold largely with the point of view that has been expressed by Deputy Smith. The principle of election is sound theoretically, but in view of all that has been said, I think you would get a better representation of the pig producers' interests on the Board by the other method.

Deputy Dillon

I think we should agree that the first Board be a nominated one, and thereafter that a system be devised whereby the producers would elect, not members on the Board, but would submit a panel from which their representatives would be chosen.

Minister for Agriculture

I think we might put that question aside for the moment. I am prepared to introduce an amendment on the Report Stage providing for the setting up of election machinery after the first election, and if necessary, that the Orders bringing it into operation be laid on the Table of the House.

Deputy Smith

Certainly. We would like that.

Deputy McGovern

Will the Report Stage be discussed by a Committee of the whole House ?

Minister for Agriculture

Yes. I think that if we got those three or four big principles straight we would get through the rest quickly. I quite agree that it is necessary to take into consideration the cost of production of the pig, but the Committee will have to remember that that cannot be a primary consideration, because, as I explained on the Second Stage, this Bill is trying to avoid the necessity of regulating production.

Deputy Belton

The production of pigs ?

Minister for Agriculture

Yes. We could have said that we were only going to allow a million pigs to be produced. That could have been done by licensing sows, boars, and so on. Having produced that number of pigs, we could have let them take their chance with regard to price. Seeing that we are going the other way—taking whatever number of pigs there is, and giving the best price possible in the circumstances—it may be necessary at times to keep the price of pigs below the cost of production, in order to cut down production.

Deputy Belton

That is strengthening still further my argument about the Bacon Production Order.

Minister for Agriculture

I am just making the argument that the cost of production must not be the primary consideration. The capacity of the markets must be the first consideration.

Deputy Belton

The capacity of the markets at 1/6 per lb. and the capacity of the markets at 1/- per lb. are two different things.

Minister for Agriculture

Quite right. That must be taken into account.

Deputy Belton

That is where the producer of pigs wants a say in the matter.

Deputy Smith

One weakness I can see in the Bill is that it does not attempt to regulate or control the production of pigs. I imagine that the machinery which is being set up here under this measure will ensure that such regulations or amended legislation will have to be introduced in a short time, no matter how the Pigs Marketing Board operates with regard to the fixing of prices.

Deputy Dillon

I have converted Deputy Smith. This is an epoch-making occasion.

Deputy Smith

Common sense always converts me.

Minister for Agriculture

Quite possibly Deputy Smith is right.

Deputy Belton

It seems inevitably coming, but it has not come yet.

Minister for Agriculture

I think the only outstanding point between us is whether this protection order should be made by the Bacon Marketing Board or a Board composed of the two parties.

Deputy Dillon

I cannot accept the Minister's view in regard to the cost of production. However, I do not want to interrupt him.

Deputy Belton

The cost of production ? What does the Deputy mean ?

Deputy Dillon

The Minister sets out that this element of the capacity of the market to absorb must be a dominant consideration. That may be, but it is vitally necessary that the public and the producer should know from time to time whether the price fixed is actually an economic or an uneconomic price.

Minister for Agriculture

I have no objection to the public knowing it. The producer cannot get it at all times. That is the point.

Deputy Dillon

Very possibly. What I require is that the economic price will be set out, and that side by side with it the actual price fixed will be set out as well. I think it is idle to have a Bill of this kind at all, unless we are going to set out on every price making order the true economic price of the pigs, and, side by side with that, what the Minister describes as the actual price.

Minister for Agriculture

The fixed price.

Deputy Dillon

I take it that the hypothetical price under this Bill is actually the market price. Is not that so ?

Minister for Agriculture

Yes.

Deputy Dillon

And the fixed price is the price which the people are going to get ?

Minister for Agriculture

Yes.

Deputy Dillon

I really want, side by side with those two prices, the economic price—the price that pig producers should legitimately expect to get, taking into consideration their cost of production.

Deputy Smith

The producers themselves would be the best judges as to whether or not the actual price is an economic one. Why should we go to all that trouble ? When the actual price is fixed it will be for the producers to determine whether or not they should produce pigs at that price. Surely when there is no means here of curtailing or limiting production, the question which Deputy Dillon raises is not of any use.

Deputy Belton

We have now sat for two hours and twenty minutes, and I would suggest an adjournment. Having got each other's views, let us, in face of that, consider our own views, and adjourn this meeting.

Minister for Agriculture

Let us not adjourn until we see what is between us.

Deputy Belton

I am prepared to sit as long as the Minister wishes, so long as we do not come to a decision. So long as you want to exchange views I am prepared to sit.

Deputy Beegan

As regards the Joint Board, I suggest that if you had four bacon curers and three of the producers, with a chairman appointed by the Minister, and having a casting vote, that would instil confidence.

Deputy Belton

It is not the numbers I am concerned with; it is the principle.

Deputy Haslett

Assuming that you have consented as regards the setting up of machinery, that machinery would not be incorporated in this Bill ?

Minister for Agriculture

It would.

Deputy Smith

Did you not say you could do it by order ?

Minister for Agriculture

I thought what the Deputy asked was whether or not it would be provided for in this Bill. We should have to provide for it, but we need not set it out.

Deputy Smith

I should like the Committee to understand that until we see the sort of machinery which is proposed, many of us here do not accept that point.

Minister for Agriculture

When we adjourn I want to say something on that matter.

Deputy McGovern

In case it becomes necessary to limit production, I would suggest one way of doing so, and that is by limiting the number of pigs which any one man may produce. If one man produces three or four pigs, he should not be limited, but in the case of another man who produces 500 pigs there could be a limitation imposed.

Deputy Belton

The trouble in regard to this Bill is only a flyblow to what that trouble will be when we reach it.

Chairman

It is not in the Bill, and it is not in order to have a discussion on it.

Deputy McGovern

I am only making a suggestion, and I think it is worthy of consideration.

Minister for Agriculture

On what points does Deputy Belton want to adjourn ?

Deputy Belton

We have now had one another's point of view on the machinery of the two Boards and of the suggested Joint Board. I think the Minister was relenting a little bit as regards the production order going to the Pigs Board, which is the Joint Board. There are certain things on which I am determined to stand out, and I would rather have agreement.

Minister for Agriculture

I can go a little bit to meet the Deputy. We could perhaps require the Bacon Marketing Board to consider anything which the Pigs Marketing Board might put up to them, with regard to the number of pigs in the country and so on.

Deputy Belton

As I said earlier in this discussion, if the Bacon Marketing Board erred to a very large extent in fixing the production order, then the Pigs Marketing Board would be justified in going on. If they only erred slightly, a little on their own side——

Deputy Smith

They have two means of getting back at them. The Pigs Marketing Board could come back on the Bacon Marketing Board in the way of a levy for the next quota period. They could also come back on them in regard to the killing and disposing of the surplus.

Deputy Belton

The Deputy overlooks the important fact that the Pigs Marketing Board, which he alleges can come back on the Bacon Marketing Board, is as much a curers' board as it is a producers' board.

Deputy Smith

You have agreed to its composition. You have agreed that its composition is the only composition you could devise.

Deputy Belton

I have not.

Deputy Smith

You have. You have said that the only fair Pigs Marketing Board was a Board composed of three curers and three representatives of the pig producers, presided over by a Chairman who would have a casting vote in the event of failure to agree. You have stated several times here that that is the only Pigs Marketing Board that would be fair.

Deputy Belton

I do not think anybody here heard that except the Deputy. I have not said that. The Pigs Marketing Board is as much a Bacon Curers' Board as it is a Bacon Producers' Board.

Deputy Dillon

Might I intervene ? We have heard the constitution of the Board argued very fully. May I ask if the Minister will now make a final statement as to his views on the price fixing order ? That is the crux of the whole question.

Minister for Agriculture

Amendment 175 sets out my views. I am prepared to accept what is set out there.

Deputy Dillon

Will the Minister accept the proposal for the publication in Iris Oifigiúil of the determinations made in respect of those matters with the order fixing the price ?

Minister for Agriculture

Does not that sort of thing lead to interminable controversy ? We were asked to give the costings in beet production. Apart from the political propaganda of trying to make the Minister out as saying that 4½d. was a just wage, there were such questions as " Does the Minister think a man could harrow an acre of land in four hours" ? Every single item will lead to all sorts of controversy.

Deputy Dillon

I am prepared to go a long way to meet the Minister. I put down a very comprehensive amendment, and I fully recognise that portions of the amendment are partly for the purpose of politically embarrassing the Minister. I am prepared to waive those parts of the amendment.

Deputy Haslett

That is a full confession.

Deputy Smith

It was unnecessary.

Deputy Dillon

I suggest that paragraph C should be published.

Minister for Agriculture

Certainly that could be considered. There is what you might call the standard ration.

Deputy Dillon

The standard ration could be arrived at on lines similar to the British report. I do not know if it is in the Irish report. If the Minister is prepared to set out the relevant costs of production, either contained in paragraph (a) of my amendment, or in paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d), and (e), of Deputy Belton's amendment together with paragraph (c) of my amendment, I am prepared to accept that.

Minister for Agriculture

I think that is the line we might follow, taking amendment No. 175 with amendment No. 147 (c); we could follow that all right. I think we now have got down to the stage of understanding one another's point of view and there should not be any great difficulty in getting through the Committee Stage fairly quickly when we meet again. Deputy Belton does not want any decision to be taken now ?

Deputy Belton

I would rather not at the moment.

Minister for Agriculture

I think we have got over two of the differences with regard to the election of members and the cost of feeding the pigs. The only difficulty is the production order suggested by Deputy Belton. I am afraid it would upset the whole Bill; it would upset all the agreements we have got from the different interests concerned and we would have to put the Bill through against the opposition of practically everybody concerned if we were to change that principle. We could go a small part of the way by asking that the Bacon Marketing Board, in conjunction with the Pigs Marketing Board, should take into consideration several matters, the outstanding thing being the supply of pigs likely to be available. That is about as far as we could go. Apart from that, there are one or two things which it might be well to dispose of before adjourning. There is the point with regard to substitutive members which Deputy McGovern appears to dislike. It might be well to know what his real objection is.

Deputy McGovern

I cannot understand why there should be 14 substitutive members to fill possible vacancies.

Minister for Agriculture

That is a rather small point.

Deputy Belton

It does not cost anything.

Deputy McGovern

You might find it serious. The 14 substitutive members would be watching for their opportunity and the members appointed would not be supposed to be playing the game if they did not get that opportunity. The organisation might be finding fault with the men actually appointed. You will find the substitutive members will be there and it will mean paying 21 instead of seven members the greater part of the time.

Minister for Agriculture

We will watch that point carefully, but of course it is not a point of principle.

Deputy Smith

Are we to take it that we will have no further discussion with regard to anything that interferes with the machinery set up relative to the composition of boards ?

Deputy Belton

That would be tantamount to taking a decision.

Minister for Agriculture

We could have a vote on it, if Deputies so desire, when we come to the points concerned.

Deputy Belton

I do not think it would be advisable to reach any decision now. Better wait until we meet again this evening.

The Committee adjourned at 12.35 p.m. until 6 p.m.

The Committee resumed at 6.10 p.m.

Members present :—Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan); Deputies P. Beegan, P. Belton, J. M. Dillon, A. Haslett, M. J. Keyes, P. McGovern, B. Maguire, T. J. Murphy, M. O'Reilly, P. Smith.

Deputy S. Moore in the Chair.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 169.

Chairman

I think we were taking a decision on Part V.

Deputy Dillon

Deputy Belton is now addressing the assembled Deputies on the Local Government Estimate.

Chairman

It is not satisfactory to leave over a thing that has been so fully discussed without a decision. I think we shall have to take a decision on this matter now. If we leave it over and come back to it again it will not be satisfactory.

Mr. Dillon

On the amendment, the Minister gave a qualified undertaking to-day. I should be glad if we could have exactly what his intention is. One suggestion was that he would nominate representative pig producers on the first Pigs Board and subsequently provide machinery for their election ; another that he would require the Pigs Board to publish certain details of the costings on which they arrived at the net fixed price.

Minister for Agriculture

As a matter of fact I have got a short statement typed, so that I may have correctly what I undertook to do.

Deputy O'Reilly

What does Deputy Dillon mean by costings ?

Deputy Dillon

We discussed this for two and a half hours this morning and as we departed one Deputy said he hoped that no Deputy would come along this afternoon and raise a discussion on it again. I think it was Deputy Smith said that.

Deputy O'Reilly

It is quite a legitimate question to ask but, as long as there was a satisfactory discussion, I do not mind.

Deputy Smith

If Deputy Dillon had been absent I would have been very much more emphatic about what I said.

Deputy Dillon

I have no doubt.

Minister for Agriculture

As I mentioned before the adjournment, I am prepared at the Report Stage to introduce an amendment giving me power to make by Order under Part IV of the Bill provision for the election of producer members of the Pigs Marketing Board by associations of pig producers, county committees of agriculture, and any other more or less representative bodies. As I doubt the feasibility of finding any one body sufficiently representative to elect producer members, I propose taking power to enable such bodies to nominate a panel of producers from whom I would ultimately select the three members necessary. This means that the producer members of the first Board will be nominated but that future members will be either elected if there is one sufficiently representative body to elect them, or will be nominated by me from a panel, the members of which would be elected by associations of producers or county committees of agriculture. I cannot be more definite on that point until the Report Stage.

As regards the considerations to be taken into account by the Pigs Board when fixing prices, I am prepared to accept as the basis of an amendment which I will introduce on Report the matters from (a) to (e) in Mr. Belton's amendment No. 175, together with (c) in Mr. Dillon's amendment No. 147, and to require the Board to publish from time to time particulars of the composition and price of a standard ration.

I do not consider that there need be apprehension that curers will deliberately restrict production so as artifically to create a surplus of pigs and thereby influence the price of pigs. I do not consider that one curer will be specially interested in the price of pigs. He will be interested in the margin between the price fixed for pigs and the price of bacon produced. That margin will, in effect, be fixed by the Pigs Marketing Board but, granted that it is the margin which is of interest to the curer, it follows that it is all in the interests of the curer to produce as much bacon as he can. Apart from this consideration, there are other reasons relating to the method of allocation which should normally encourage all curers to produce as much bacon as they can. On this understanding I take it that amendments Nos. 169 to 175 will be withdrawn as well as the various other amendments dealing with the constitution of the Boards.

Chairman

In the absence of Deputy Belton, I take it we cannot expect the amendments to be withdrawn, so I will put them to the Committee.

Amendments Nos. 169 to 174, inclusive, put and negatived.

Amendment No. 175, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 73 put and agreed to.

Amendment No. 43 not moved.

Section 74 put and agreed to.