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Special Committee Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, 1991 debate -
Tuesday, 30 Jun 1992

SECTION 1

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 5, subsection (1), lines 11 and 12, to delete "Solicitors (Amendment) Act, 1991" and substitute "Regulation of Legal Professions Act, 1991".

I have the honour of moving the first amendment to the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, 1991 — Special Committee Stage by proposing that we change the title of the Bill to something wider. It is, I think, incumbent on this Committee and on the Government to reserve for itself the right to regulate other matters with regard to the legal professions and not just the solicitors profession. Also with regard to the administration of justice, in certain ways as we go along, and which immediately and directly spring from the workings of the professions and the way in which the courts interact with them in delivering a service to the public. To take the first point, it is a remarkable development of legal history in this country that we have two arms of the profession, but that while one arm is entirely and totally regulated virtually in everything it does and in every way it performs, the other arm of the profession, namely the bar, has been completely without any statutory regulation whatsoever — from its foundation right through to the current day. The Oireachtas has never introduced any legislation to impose or introduce any regulation whatsoever on the way the Bar operates. The genesis of this legislation is that it arises from reactions by the public to the quality of legal services it gets or, more particularly, it fails to get on occasion. As a Committee and as a Legislature we are trying to address those concerns and those reservations. I am speaking specifically as a member of the Dáil who believes that our duty is to try at the end of this legislation to have achieved a formula that will ensure a better service for the public. I said on Second Stage that that is the brief I hold in this Committee and I am not here to defend the particular interests of the profession of which I am a member or of any particular viewpoint within or outside that profession, but to work from the general idea of trying to see it from the view point of the public and see where the professions fail the public and how they can be prevailed upon to improve. I am speaking as a member of the public, as a member of the Legislature and as a practising solicitor in saying that, in all of the years I have been in any way involved, 50 per cent of the blame for the poor delivery of services to the extent with which it exists rests with the Bar and it is incumbent on us, if we are serious as a committee in attempting to provide legislation that will address the shortcomings in the delivery of legal services, to ensure that in whatever legislative proposals we lay down we draw in that arm of the profession that provides 50 per cent of the problem. That is the first point; the second point is that, for far too long, the two professions use each other as an escape route whenever they are confronted with complaints from the public. When it comes to the delivery and the quality of the service, the solicitors invariably say it was the Bar or the barristers' problem and if ever you can address the Bar or the barrister, they say that if the solicitor or the solicitors had instructed them differently, they would obviously have acted accordingly, but they did only as they were entitled to do.

In attempting to address this problem, I have constantly found difficulty in trying to understand the position of a member of the public who has frontline contact with a solicitor and who is told by the solicitor that the problem rests with someone else working on the case who has now retreated behind the doors of the Bar Library and who is, in effect, unapproachable directly and is open to virtually no recourse of discipline, public or otherwise. I believe we have to begin as a Committee and as a Legislature to try to break down this doublehand act that is played. I also believe it is basically unfair — and here I am speaking as someone who has been in practice as a solicitor — that we can regulate solicitors in such a way they are subject to very close scrutiny within their profession. Anyone who has studied this in the preparation of this legislation will come rapidly to the conclusion that the solicitor's profession is the most heavily policed profession in the country. There can be absolutely no doubt about that in terms of its own internal regulation and in terms of the extra professional regulations that are placed upon it by the Department of Justice, by the disciplinary committees and by the Law Society, working through the High Court. There may well be good reasons why those regulations are there and — yes, some profession must be the most policed profession in the country. It may well be that the solicitor's profession has got to be that because of the degree of trust that is reposed in it and the degree of confidentiality that must exist and the importance of preserving those two elements. I am at a loss entirely to understand how it is that the same considerations, or something approaching the same regime, does not apply to the Bar. I cannot understand why they cannot be subject to a regime that draws them in the direction of the High Court if they are subject to or guilty of or accused of gross professional negligence in the course of their duties and as professionals they are as capable of negligence as the next. There is nothing peculiar about them, but over the years there has been this amazing hands-off attitude to that profession, so that is a third reason why I believe there is basic unfairness, if you are going to treat one arm of the profession one way, you should extend it to draw all people into it.

The point that concerns me in the context of this legislation is that we will be coming to talk about matters disciplinary later and I believe it is incumbent on us to legislate for the Bar in the overall regime we are talking about. More importantly, and later again in the legislation, we will come to talk about educational procedures and all the Government can agree to do is to provide an overall aspirational clause saying that "we would hope in time to have a single school of education" or that "nothing should be done in legislation to prohibit us" or that "the Minister may provide for a single school of education". Such an idea is crucial to any serious reform of the legal profession, but that involves drawing the Bar as a profession directly into the legislative code. We will not ever provide it any other way and let no one here in this Committee fool themselves that we can ultimately achieve what I believe is the desirable objective, in a small country within a small profession, of having a single school of legal education.

One of the things that perhaps members of this Committee do not realise about legal education, as provided at the moment by both the Law Society and the Bar, is that students attending institutions of the two separate schools of third level professional education are not entitled to the normal access to third level education grants available to students in all other institutions in this country because of the control and direction of them reposing directly in the hands of the professional bodies; the Law Society and the Bar. Students attending Blackhall Place or going to King's Inns cannot get assistance of State educational grants and all that the Law Society has achieved so far is a special arrangement with banking institutions to help the students get loans to meet the costs.

Those are practical problems on the ground that are experienced by students, by clients of the profession and by members of the public generally and we are trying, in some way, to address them in this legislation, but I believe we are doing it in an incomplete, half-hearted way and all I am saying is in tabling an amendment to the short title of the Bill I am signalling that the measure is only half baked and only half hearted and until we begin to broaden to it to include both professions and other matters that spring from it with regard to the administration of education and justice generally, it is only a half hearted start to the whole affair. That is why I am proposing a change to the short title because I will be proposing, further down, in amendments I propose to circulate, amendments that will be wider than merely dealing with solicitors alone.

Chairman

At this stage, we are dealing with a Bill which specifically deals with solicitors and the Incorporated Law Society and I do not in any way want to restrain or constrain the debate, but I would rather we did not evolve into a Second Stage debate on barristers and so on because it is not entirely relevant.

Yes, Chairman, I want to avoid the temptation of speaking on a Second Stage debate and, in fact, much of what Deputy McCartan has now said, I myself said at Second Stage and, from recollection, he would also have said it. There is no point in changing the name of the Bill to the Regulation of Legal Professions Act when the only profession being regulated in the Bill is the solicitors' profession and in my view there is no point in adopting such a change because it would be misleading as to what this Bill is doing. Nevertheless, I agree with the view expressed which is that it is entirely anomalous that legislation deals with disciplinary matters and matters of misconduct in relation to the solicitors' profession and that the Bar is exempt. Indeed, many of the problems which the general public experience in the area of litigation derive as much from the conduct of the Bar as they do from the conduct of the solicitors' profession and it is in my view, not correct that this particular area be approached in this way. It is approached in this way simply because it is traditional. The solicitors are regulated — I am not suggesting they should not be — and the Bar is not and I suspect the tradition is very well maintained by the Attorney General's Office who no doubt have had a major input into this legislation. The Minister may correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is right to say that the Attorney General's Office only recruits members of the Bar as its staff. There was an advertisement for recruitments to the Attorney General's Office some time ago and basically people were told that only barristers need apply. There is nothing, as I understand it, in the Statutes which would, for example, exclude a solicitor from being an Attorney General and perhaps it is time to sweep the cobwebs out of that office and to end the special pleading it engages in on behalf of the Bar. In my view it would have been better for the Government to have adopted a more radical approach and, instead of simply having a Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, to have legislation which regulated both legal professions and which amalgamated the education systems of both legal professions and removed the exemption of the Bar from public scrutiny. I believe we should have done something else, that it now appears everyone in the Oireachtas favours, which is swept the Bar out of the 16th century and brought them into the latter end of the 20th century and even allowed them sniff the air of the 21st century by abolishing wigs and gowns because apparently they will not do so until they are legislated out of wearing them. It may be quaint that they still want to go around in 15th century costume, but it is certainly no longer relevant in the modern world. The mere fact that the Bar adheres to this rather quaint and somewhat anachronistic style of dress is indicative of the Bar's need for reform.

I am happy to say that the first attack on the dressage of the Bar was launched with the Judicial Separation Act and until we have a legal Professions Act we are presumbaly not going to tackle that problem. This Bill deals with the solicitors' profession, a mere change of name cannot give it a different approach and it seems to be Government policy to only, at this stage, regulate the solicitors profession. I made the speech that Deputy McCartan made just now, on Second Stage and I do not want to delay the deliberations of this Committee by going on at any greater length than I have gone on, but I would ask the Minister, when responding, to indicate, considering his recent public relations foray into this area by way of issuing in advance of the actual debate taking place at Committee Stage on the Criminal Evidence Bill, his own thoughts on the Bar's dressage. He might indicate whether the Government now have any intention of bringing in some regulatory measures in relation to the Bar so as to ensure that clients of the legal profession, generally, have similar protections no matter which end of the legal profession they are dealing with and — I suppose to plead a special case — also to ensure that all lawyers are treated equally. Certainly, very often, if things go wrong in litigation, it is the solicitor who carries the can for the barrister who may not have been as proficient in his advice as he should have been. The day has come when that type of difficulty should be moved out of the legal profession.

A simple question, at the risk of irritating my legal experts. Would the Chair rule that any of that discussion is in order?

Chairman

The amendment is in order.

Yes, but is the discussion on barristers, etc. in order?

Chairman

I have allowed the amendment, but have asked that Members would restrain themselves and not engage in a Second Stage debate on barristers as opposed to solicitors.

I would like to thank Deputy Shatter for his intervention. Can I simply explain to the Committee, lest they think I am going off on an entire tangent, that I am not, I hope. I am merely asking the Committee to reserve to itself the possibilities of taking a small step other than the current ambit of the legislation. Can I explain to you very succinctly the one area I am particularly concerned about; that is the establishment in section 15 of the special adjudicator or investigator as he is being called and broadly spoken about as the "ombudsman" of the legal profession. The Minister made much play of this at Second Stage, that we are getting an ombudsman for the legal profession. We are not, we are getting an investigator/ adjudicator for the solicitors' profession, not for the legal profession. Here is a role of an office that I believe can be broadened not just to deal with solicitors, but to deal with barristers also, where it is appropriate. But, more particularly, the point has been made by many individuals, in the administration of justice that where, for example, in the course of his or her investigations, he or she highlights a problem in the way the court administers its business and he or she should be entitled to a remedy and the ombudsman should be entitled to make a recommendation to say that the rules of court be changed in this way or that. We are actually cutting ourselves out of that prospect. I have an amendment, No. 10 if you look at it.

Chairman

We will stick to amendment No. 1.

I am just signalling that in amendment No. 10, and in this context, I will be proposing to change the idea of the adjudicator as talked about in section 15, into a legal affairs ombudsman. We have to give meaning to the legislation in the way it is being talked about. I am merely asking the committee to agree to broaden its hand in this small way, so it is not something that is designed to launch a broadside at the Bar. I am not interested in that, but I am interested in seeing that the public who have problems about the way legal services are being delivered will be getting a fair deal under this legislation, that is all.

Chairman, I would like to support the comments made by Deputies McCartan and Shatter and without repeating anything they have said, I would like to put it in this way, that the Bill is concerned with the services provided by solicitors. There are occasions when it is only the solicitor who is involved in the provision of the service. However in very many cases the provision of the service by the solicitor contains within it the necessity for co-operation with the solicitor not only by barristers but engineers, doctors, actuaries and other professional people.

Section 8 renders a solicitor open to a complaint, via a client, that the services being provided by the solicitor were inadequate. It may well be that the solicitor who is the end result, the delivery point of the service, may in fact be providing an inadequate service, not through any fault of his but because he has not received the co-operation he requires from the counsel in the case, the doctor in the case, the engineer in the case, the actuary in the case and so on. For that reason, I believe Deputy McCartan's amendment and line of argument is well taken and, indeed, having regard to your constraint about broadening the matter, I hesitate to broaden it even further by bringing in other people on whom the solicitor relies for the delivery of his service and who avoid the complaint that what he is providing is adequate or not. I think the point is well taken for that reason.

As this is my first contribution on this Bill, I should formally declare that I am a practising solicitor and I believe that admission is reasonably required for the record.

Chairman

As the revised motion regarding our procedures is now circulated, we can report progress on this amendment and then go on to the procedural matter, if that is agreeable? Preferably, we could dispose of section 1 first.

I will be brief. We have been waiting since 1983 for this legislation. The legislation deals with both the training and regulation of solicitors and, more importantly as far as I am concerned, it deals with the interests of the public in relation to abuses and negligence. To broaden out the terms of reference of the Bill at this stage would be an error but future legislation which I believe is necessary could deal with the other issues raised by Deputy McCartan. It would be wrong at this stage to broaden the terms of reference of the Bill to take into account the other side of the legal profession. I would not agree with the amendment.

Firstly, I would like to come to a point made by Deputy Shatter in the course of his contribution. He referred to what he called my foray into the public relations business, in relation to the Criminal Evidence Bill. Deputy Shatter is no slouch at the public relations game himself and he is on record in the Official Report on the Committee Stage and Second Stage of the Criminal Evidence Bill as lamenting the fact of the absence of the press and the fact that that Bill, a very important landmark piece of criminal legislation, was not getting sufficient publicity. What he calls my foray certainly helped to highlight the provisions of the Bill and I believe Deputy Shatter cannot have it both ways. Does he want this brought to public attention, or does he not?

In relation to the amendment in the name of Deputy McCartan, I take the point that the Deputy is making. As he rightly says, he wants to give a signal that both branches of the legal profession should be included and should be regulated by legislation. The Bill before us is a Bill to amend the Solicitors Acts, 1954 and 1960. While I would accept that other issues arise for consideration in connection with the barristers' profession and the general administration of justice, particularly in light of the comments of the Fair Trade Commission in their recent report, these are matters for separate consideration.

As Deputy McCartan has rightly pointed out, legislation in this area has always dealt with solicitors. The solicitors' profession has been the only one to be regulated by legislation. I think there was an attempt made — my history might be inaccurate — to regulate the Bar by legislation in the early 1790s but it was given short shrift by the Lord Lieutenant of the day. Nothing has happened since. The actual amendment in the name of Deputy McCartan would change the title of the legislation from the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill to the Regulation of Legal Professions Bill. There are two branches to the legal profession and the terms of the legislation deal with solicitors only. It seems to me to be somewhat ludicrous to have legislation which is titled Regulation of Legal Professions Act in section 1, then it goes on to another 74 sections dealing with only one profession, which is what is before us. If I were to accept the amendment in the name of Deputy McCartan regardless of how well intentioned it is and regardless of how much I might agree that barristers should be regulated by legislation the simple fact of the matter is that we would need a whole raft of sections here to deal specifically with the Bar because the Bill is specifically geared towards solicitors. If I agreed with that we would have a situation where the title and the remainder of the Bill were totally inconsistent, which is something I cannot accept obviously, or alternatively I would have to withdraw the Bill and we would all have to come back here at some time in the future when we have sufficient new sections drafted to deal with barristers. From that point of view, while the motives are laudible, I cannot accept the amendment.

Could the Minister say if it is his intention at any stage to bring in such legislation. Would it be his desire and his utmost thought?

Well it has been brought to my attention, Deputy, very recently that, following the Fair Trade Commission report on the provision of legal services, the Bar have introduced a voluntary system of regulation which consists of an investigation and disciplinary committee on the one hand which includes two lay members and also an appeals committee, to which you can appeal from that, which is headed I am told by a retired High Court Judge. I do know that the Bar have not exactly fallen over themselves to publicise the existence of this committee. They have not been handing out hand bills or anything like that. I have referred a few of my constituents to that particular committee. I have told them to report back to me. I would be most anxious to see how it operates in practice. If the voluntary self regulation which is being undertaken now by the Bar does not work, then certainly it would be my intention if they were in a position to do so to bring in some sort of regulation for the Bar and as Deputy McCartan says at the very minimum to extend the jurisdiction of the independent adjudicator to the Bar.

Has the Minister sought the views of the Attorney General's Office as to whether they would co-operate in drafting that legislation?

Chairman

Deputy McCartan has the right to conclude on his amendment

I thank the Members for the views expressed. I have got a fair indication that there is not widespread support. I had also tabled — but it would not have been taken in the normal course of events until the end — a proposal to change the long title of the Bill to include the other various matters that I propose to take. Chairman, because this will have an impact on some of the amendments I was proposing to the Bill later in terms of extending the powers of the so called Ombudsman and other matters I would ask the question to be put because it will have a bearing on attitude to certain sections. I would like to finally conclude by saying it was not my intention to redraft the entire piece of legislation but there are some cornerstone provisions in it that could very usefully be extended and particularly this so called Ombudsman could have been very usefully extended to cover both professions and indeed aspects of the administration of justice.

Chairman

Are you pressing the amendment?

Chairman

I seek the guidance of the committee here as regards taking a division on the actual amendment. I think it would probably be more appropriate if we proceed in accordance with normal voting procedures for the moment. We will conclude on the amendment first by taking a vote. The question on amendment No. 1 is that the amendment be made.

Amendment put.
The Special Committee divided: Tá, 2; Níl, 8.

McCartan, P.

Taylor, M.

Níl

Ahern, D.

O'Dea, W.

Davern, N.

O'Donoghue, J.

Dennehy, J.

Quill, M.

Martin, M.

Roche, D.

Amendment declared lost.
Progress reported.
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