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Special Committee Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, 1991 debate -
Wednesday, 28 Oct 1992

SECTION 12.

I move amendment No. 50:

In page 10, line 8, to delete "may" and substitute "shall within 6 months of the passing of this Act".

I am glad to hear the unqualified support given by my colleague for the Law Society. Section 12, which relates to the previous sections, provides for the Law Society, with the concurrence or agreement of the President of the High Court, to make rules of procedure in relation to complaints received under sections 8 and 9. It states that such rules provide that a solicitor in respect of whom the complaint has been made and who is the subject of investigation shall have a right to be heard in connection with the investigation of that complaint. In relation to that it would seem that if this Act is to work it is important that such rules are made. If we had a clearer view as to how the Law Society is going to operate this system, both on allegations of misconduct and other issues, we would probably have travelled quicker today than we have.

If this function is to be given to the Law Society I do not like the idea of their having a discretion to make rules of procedure. The proposal is to delete the word "may" and to substitute the words "shall within six months of the passing of this Act". That would require The Law Society within six months of the passing of this Act to make the rules of procedure to apply to the complaints procedures and it would require that the concurrence of the President of the High Court be obtained within the six months period. It takes too long in practice for rules to be made when they are discretionary. Indeed, in the context of some legislation passed in recent years, even the rules committees of the courts have sometimes taken up to two years to make simple rules as to how to operate new statutes. I do not think that is good enough. I urge the Minister to accept this amendment. It seems to be a straight forward common sense amendment and would ensure that the procedures provided for under the Act will operate within a reasonable time scale. We should know how those procedures are going to operate.

In relation to section 12, the amendment endeavours to bring about procedures protecting the interests of the solicitor in relation to the complaints submitted. What procedures is the Minister hoping to implement to protect the interests of the person who has made a complaint? The present procedure is that when a complaint is made and if the Law Society feels there is a valid reason to pursue the complaint, the complainant is invited to meet officials of the Law Society. Evidence is taken and subsequently the Law Society interviews the solicitor. To my knowledge there is no facility available where the complainant has an opportunity to vet the evidence submitted by the solicitor. Even though a summary of the complainant's evidence is supplied to the solicitor no summary of the solicitor's evidence is supplied to the complainant. That is the way it operated in one of the cases I monitored recently. A summary of the complainants evidence was supplied to the solicitor but the complainant was not allowed to be present when the solicitor was examined or brought in to give evidence but no summary of his evidence was made available to the complainant. That, in my opinion, makes the whole procedure meaningless. All that happened in this case was that the complainant got a letter saying that, having interviewed the solicitor involved, the society found no evidence to take the case further and if the complainant wanted to pursue the matter further they could take it to the disciplinary committee of the High Court. To me that makes the procedure meaningless and I ask the Minister to let me know how the proposes to protect the interests of the complainant.

I want to raise a small point in relation to Deputy Shatter's amendment. He wants to substitute "shall" for "may". The section would read "the society with the concurrence of the President of the High Court shall make rules within six months". The President of the high court may not be in a position to do this within six months. He is a very busy man and it is putting an onus on the President of the High Court to concur within the six months and that might cause a difficulty.

What Deputy Allen is talking about are the present procedures. We are giving the Law Society new powers in the interests of the consumer of legal services and I envisage that these new powers will be accompanied by new procedures which will be needed to allow the Law Society to operate its new powers. I can more or less copperfasten that by saying that under section 15 we will appoint an independent adjudicator to whom the complainant can go if he is dissatisfied with the way the Law Society have handled matters. Therefore, there is an onus on the Law Society to adopt proper rules of procedure to ensure that the matter is properly considered, otherwise the complainant will have the right to go to the independent adjudicator.

In relation to Deputy Shatter's amendment, section 12 is an enabling provision which will facilitate the society to make whatever rules, and possibly amending rules, they consider necessary, in the light of experience of the operation of sections 8 and 9. It does not place an obligation on the society to make rules but they may find it useful to do so; in fact, they will probably find it necessary to do so. This amendment proposes to place a time limit on the society within which they would have to make procedural regulations relating to sections 8 and 9. The feeling at the moment is that there is no need to place such a time constraint on the society.

This section, together with sections 8 and 9, will come into operation three months after the passing of the Bill, and the operation of sections 8 and 9 is not contingent on the making of rules under section 12. Perhaps for their own benefit and, in view of the fact that the independent adjudicator is now being brought on the scene, the Law Society will consider it necessary to make rules. I would refer Deputy Shatter to section 16 of the Solicitors' (Amendment) Bill, 1960, which deals with the setting up of a disciplinary committee. The wording used in section 16 of that Act is exactly the same as the wording we are using here, and I quote: ". . .. the Disciplinary Committee, with the concurrence of the President of the High Court, may make rules regulating . . ..". My understanding is they made those rules.

I am working on the assumption that this Bill, or sections of it, will become operational within the three month period, but my view is that rules should be put in place first.

I have no difficulty with the idea that, as experience with the working of the system develops, there may be suggestions to improve or change the rules. However, if this system is to work and to be fair to both the client or consumer of the legal profession and to members of the legal profession, the procedures the society uses should not be veiled in mystique, where you only discover how the system works as you work through it and the rules change each day. The society should publish a set of rules and make them available to people who have complaints they wish to have processed and to the members of the profession who fall under that system. In the context of not pushing this amendment, I suggest that we look at this again on Report Stage with a view to amending the section to impose an obligation on the society not merely to make a set of rules but to publish a set of rules and procedures within three months of the Bill passing. There has been a long gestation period for this Bill. There is no reason the society cannot work on those rules over the next few weeks or months as we are processing the Bill; in reality they have a good deal longer than three months. I take what Deputy Ahern said that the President of the High Court might be otherwise engaged, and who knows how long he will be engaged in his current predicament or writing his reports on current events. If things continue as they are, it will probably be appropriate that we have a censorship Bill operating in the House. If he gives explicit reproductions of some of the evidence, it might offend the Censorship of Publications Board.

(Interruptions.)

If the President of the High Court is not available there is no reason the President of the High Court should not be able to nominate someone to operate in his stead in particular circumstances. I will conclude on that. It is not simply a question of the society making rules. I think the society should be required to publish them and they should be accessible.

Getting back to the point I made, section 15 deals with complaints that have been heard by the society and by the complainants who are dissatisfied with the society's handling of that complaint. I would ask the Minister to reconsider the procedures he is now proposing under section 12. Where he is proposing to give the solicitor the right to a hearing, surely the complainant would have a right to all the evidence submitted in relation to the complaint, and the complainant would be present when there is a response to the solicitor involved. Surely that is in the interests of fair play.

The point I am making is that if the complainant does not get a fair hearing from the Law Society he will be able to go to the independent adjudicator, and that will put the onus on the society to give him a fair hearing. In relation to what Deputy Shatter said——

Surely it would be reasonable to insert in that section a clause to the effect that the complainant would have the right to audience, a right to respond to the solicitor's response and to have evidence submitted by the solicitor. That, in effect, would reduce the number of complaints to the independent adjudicator.

That is inherent in the section but I will consider what the Deputy is saying. I agree with many of the views expressed by Deputy Shatter. We have to deal with the Law Society in relation to the formulation and the operation of this legislation. My inclination is not to proceed by way of statutory obligation, compelling the Law Society to make rules within a certain period. I will be having further discussions with the Law Society and we will proceed — dare I say it and I hope Deputy Shatter will understand this word — by consensus.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 50a not moved.

I move amendment No. 51:

In page 10, line 9, after "received" to insert "by the Society".

This is a technical amendment in relation to the same section. The section currently reads:

The Society, with the concurrence of the President of the High Court, may make rules of procedure in relation to complaints received under sections 8 and 9 of this Act . . ..

The suggestion is that after the words "received" it should read "complaints received by the Society under sections 8 and 9 of this Act". It is purely a drafting amendment. I presume the Minister may respond and say that if they are received under sections 8 and 9 of the Act they have to be received by the society. Otherwise, they would not be complaints under sections 8 and 9 of the Act. It is a tidying up suggestion to take my colleague Deputy Browne's suggestion today, that there is no harm that when we have sections in the Bill that they actually will be understandable. There is a merit in the individual sections in the Bill being understandable and I ask the Minister to accept this amendment. It is a drafting amendment. I could argue that there is no need for it, but there is no point in using oblique or difficult language when things can be explicit.

Deputy Shatter anticipated me yet again in the reply I was going to give. Seeing that the proposal he has put forward does not do any violence to the language of the section, I have no problem in accepting the amendment.

We can take it from the Minister that he will make amendments on Report Stage in protecting the rights of the client.

I will be discussing that with the society and if necessary we will be bringing in an amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 12, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 13.

I move amendment No. 52:

In page 10, subsection (1), line 15, after "solicitor" to insert ",".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 53:

In page 10, subsection (1), line 18, to delete "payable".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 54:

In page 10, subsection (2), line 22, after "section" to insert "(to the extent that it has not been rescinded or varied by the High Court pursuant to an application under section 11 (1) of this Act)".

The amendment is needed to allow for the possibility that a contribution sought by the Law Society when imposing a sanction on a solicitor under sections 8 or 9 of the Bill might be rescinded or varied by the High Court following an appeal against the sanction brought by the solicitor under section 11 of the Bill. The position that applied after such a High Court decision would be the appropriate one for the purpose of section 13 (2).

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 55:

In page 10, subsection (2), lines 25 and 26, to delete "amended" and substitute "substituted".

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 13, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I want to raise some points on section 13. As I understand this section — and I have no particular argument with what it provides — it seems to imply that, following an investigation of a complaint, a determination or a direction is given under the Act, a solicitor may be required to contribute £1,000 towards the contribution, or £1,000 payment towards the fees of the society or costs of the society. I want to clarify this. As I understand when the society receives a complaint it can make a direction to a solicitor to produce the file or the papers and then the society might investigate the complaint and discover it is groundless. My interpretation of his section is that, where a direction has been given to produce files or papers and even where it is discovered that a complaint is groundless, the society could require the solicitor to pay a sum not exceeding £1,000. I want the Minister to clarify that because it would appear that that is not a reasonable provision.

The second issue I wish to raise is a difficult one but I think it should be raised and I would not be doing my duty in the context of teasing out the implication of this Bill for everyone concerned if I did not raise it. There is an assumption here that if a complaint is made against a solicitor which, when investigated, is proved groundless, or, let us say, when a complaint is investigated it is discovered that the person who made the complaint is either malicious or has personality difficulties and there is no real valid complaint against the solicitor at all, the society has to investigate it — and that does happen and anyone who works in the legal profession would know of such happenings. What will the position be of that solicitor against whom it is held the complaint was groundless? I am raising that particularly because there is an assumption that if a complaint is made against a solicitor the solicitor hands over the file. It does not do the solicitor any harm once the complaint is found to be untrue or to have no basis but the reality is a solicitor faced by a complaint from a malicious client may not only suffer great emotional distress, may he lose considerable time in setting out the work he has done for his client and defending himself in front of the Law Society.

This is equivalent to a doctor who has an allegation of malpractice made against him. A solicitor so confronted may feel the need to protect his position by seeking representation. Indeed, in front of the Law Society committee a solicitor may decide he wants to be represented by a colleague in the legal profession — a solicitor or counsel because the solicitor may be too emotionally distraught by allegations made or feel he or she is too close to what is happening to deal with it properly.

Throughout this Bill there is one assumption we should confront. There is an assumption that most solicitors are hookey and out to fiddle their clients. In fairness, Deputy Allen, myself and others today have made the point that we accept there is a problem with the minority of solicitors and they need to be dealt with because they are creating a huge problem for the legal profession, as the profession knows to its cost, in the context of complaints being made against the profession's funds, where some of these gentlemen leave the country. I carry no can for those people but I am concerned about the position of the solicitor who under this system is the recipient of a complaint that is malicious who may lose a number of weeks' work in his practice because he is under stress, who has to incur expense or rely on the goodwill of colleagues to represent him and is found to have dealt in a satisfactory way with the complainant's legal affairs.

Should this legislation not allow for some penalty to be imposed on a complainant whose complaint after full investigation is found to be vexatious? There is an assumption in section 8 or section 9 that the society does not have to conduct an investigation when a complaint is made if it deems the complaint vexatious and frivolous. The assumption is that, almost on its face, the society will be able to adjudge complaints vexatious and frivolous. The society will receive many complaints which may seem extremely impressive from the manner in which they are made against the solicitor and it is only at the conclusion of a full investigation and a determination that the society will discover that the complaint was vexatious and frivolous. At that stage, some of the damage will have been done to the person who is the subject of that complaint.

I do not believe we should put in place a system where someone who makes a valid complaint which is then investigated and the society feel that what occurred should not have happened but as it was not particularly serious they may feel that there is a conflict of evidence and they cannot reach a determination. I am not suggesting that people who make complaints and who were not successful in establishing the facts in full of their complaint should be financially penalised. What I am suggesting is that when the Law Society reaches a decision that a complaint was vexatious or made out of malice there should be a penalty imposed or, if the society cannot impose a penalty on the complainant because he is not a member of the society, it should be able to make a report to the President of the High Court who should be able to determine whether a financial penalty should be imposed.

In that context I come back to the case I mentioned earlier in which a person is currently suing a variety of solicitors through the High Court for events that happened many years ago — and I think suing the Law Society as well. As I understand it the person has not been successful in the interim stages. If such a person sought to malign a number of solicitors there could be open season to bring consecutive complaints against the Law Society which, on their face, may sound impressive but could tie up the Law Society's investigative procedures and the solicitors involved for a long time. There would be nothing in this legislation to prevent a repetition of a series of complaints by someone who had been represented by five or six solicitors over a period of years, all of whom had done their best but, at the end of the day, they were being maligned by the person they sought to assist.

I particularly want to emphasise again that I am not talking about the generality of complaints but about the small number of individual complaints made by people out of malice or who may be unwell and decide they are going to take a case against someone who some years earlier was of help to them. If we allow for a fine to be imposed on a solicitor — and I have no objection to that — who has behaved improperly to the extent of his being required to pay some of the society's costs, we must make provision for the other side of this problem.

In relation to the first point the Deputy made about a solicitor paying the cost of giving a direction to somebody to produce documents, I do not know what costs would be involved there. In what way is it going to cost the Law Society to direct somebody to produce documents? If the Deputy prefers, I will discuss it with the draftsman with a view to taking it out. It does not apply to section 8 (1) (v) or section 10. In so far as it refers to a direction under section 9 to produce documents, I will look favourably at that. In relation to the second point, I see a certain logic in what the Deputy is saying and I shall discuss it with the draftsman. I may be in a position to bring in an amendment to that effect.

The point is well made by Deputy Shatter and it brings to mind a recent incident in my own home town where a solicitor had to take an injunction against somebody who was picketing outside his office. The man got his day in court and was listened to and had various witnesses including his legal team. Members should read the account of that case in the Dundalk Democrat. The complainant, who was picketing outside the solicitors’ office alleged in court that the solicitor had had a nervous breakdown — which was untrue — when his case was being heard in court. I will not go into the details because it may be appealed to the High Court, but on the imposition of a penalty the point is well made because in this instance the man lost his case, the solicitors took an injunction restraining him from interfering with them and their office and their barristers who were involved, Owen Fitzsimons and somebody else. There was a penalty in that he lost all costs in relation to the case that the solicitors took. If some frivolous complaint was brought there should be some penalty if it was found to be frivolous.

Question put and agreed to.
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