Thursday, 29 Jan 2004

Priority Questions.

Internet Grooming.

Questions (1)

John Deasy

Question:

1 Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he has satisfied himself that the recent practice of Internet grooming is adequately covered by the Child Trafficking and Pornography Act 1998; if he has further satisfied himself that where a child, in the absence of coercion and of his or her own free will, meets with a predatory adult following Internet grooming, this is covered by the Act and constitutes an offence under the Act; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2581/04]

Oral answers (52 contributions)

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. B. Lenihan)

The definition of child pornography at section 2 of the Child Trafficking and Pornography Act 1998 includes any visual representation or description of, or information relating to, a child that indicates or implies that the he or she is available to be used for the purposes of sexual exploitation. That provision was included in the definition in order to deal with fears that paedophiles were exchanging information with one another on the Internet about such children.

The particular issue of Internet grooming referred to in the question was not an issue at the time the 1998 Act was being prepared but has since given rise to concern. It would not be easy to deal with in legislation but I have been examining it in the context of legislation which will be required for compliance with two recent EU Framework Decisions to see if a practical and enforceable solution can be found. As part of the examination I have regard to a provision in the recently enacted Sexual Offences Act 2003 in the UK which makes it an offence to meet a child for the purpose of committing a sexual offence against him or her following grooming, whether on the Internet or otherwise.

Mr. Deasy

I thank the Minister of State for his response, but there is a problem with the questioning system, which affects the Ceann Comhairle's office. I put down a couple of questions, one of which was a priority question to ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of orders made under sections 3 and 4 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 2003. I also asked a question about how many prosecutions had been secured under the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003. These questions have not been allowed for different reasons and the figures are not available. One was disallowed by the Ceann Comhairle's office.

Last week the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform issued a statement with regard to the Garda crime statistics. It said the reductions in violence and public order offences follow the enactment during 2003 of the public order Bill and the intoxicating liquor Bill, which gives significant additional powers to the Garda to deal with public order and street crime.

Somebody is misleading somebody else. A Department and a Minister make a statement with regard to two pieces of legislation but say they do not have the figures to back that up and will not provide a Deputy in this House with the figures. There is a massive fundamental contradiction here. This exposes entirely the sham procedure in this House. It has turned into an exercise in concealment, more than anything. Somebody will have to answer the question as to how a statement like that could be made a week ago, while at the same time questions that I have asked on the same pieces of legislation have been disallowed. It is extraordinary. The Ceann Comhairle, on a point of order, will have to answer that question.

At the same time last week the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, said that the spiral in crime had been curtailed. This is the same man who asked an expert group to look into the rate of unreported crime. The group has not reported to him, so how in God's name could it be said that the spiral of crime in this country has been curtailed? There is something fundamentally wrong with this process.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made the point. The Chair will investigate the matter and communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Deasy

I think I deserve an answer from the Ministers of State. This is not good enough. We must sort this out.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is speaking on priority Question Time.

Mr. Deasy

This is a fundamental issue within this House. At the very least one of those two Ministers of State should be allowed to try to answer the question that I put.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point distinctly and the Chair is prepared to undertake to investigate the reasons the questions were turned down——

Mr. Deasy

Absolutely not. This is a complete sham.

An Ceann Comhairle

——and come back to you on the matter.

Mr. Deasy

This undermines everything we do in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point. If he has a supplementary on his question——

Mr. Deasy

One week it is said that two Acts are responsible for a reduction in crime in this country. At the same time figures cannot be produced to prove that. That is misleading this House. The Government is working on a false premise. I am asking one of the Ministers of State to explain the situation that has arisen. It is a fundamental issue within this House. The Government is making it up as it goes along. The Ministers of State will not answer the question because they cannot possibly.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House is dealing with priority questions and the matter raised by the Deputy will have to be dealt with in another way. As far as the Ceann Comhairle's office is concerned, the Chair will communicate directly with the Deputy.

Mr. Deasy

They cannot possibly answer the question. They are too cute sometimes and are making this stuff up as they go along. What am I doing here during priority questions? Once every three months I get up here and I am entitled to an answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand the Deputy did not submit a substitute question, that an effort was made to contact him by phone last night——

Mr. Deasy

This is the third time this has happened. I received these responses again and again.

An Ceann Comhairle

—— and that he did not contact the Questions Office.

Mr. Deasy

The Government is prepared to make statements about these Acts being the catalyst for the reduction of crime in this country when it does not have a clue. It does not have the figures.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to raise the matter in another fashion.

Mr. Deasy

What am I doing here at priority questions? If I cannot ask a fundamental question like that I have no business here. The time is up on this procedure and it is an absolute sham.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Deasy

I am asking for an answer from the Ministers of State. They do not have a response. This exposes them for what they are. Somebody has misled this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise out of the question. The Deputy will have to find another way of raising it. We will have to move on to Question No. 2 in the name of Deputy Costello. The Deputy is being disorderly and repetitive.

Mr. Deasy

This is simple and fundamental.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair allowed the Deputy to make his point and will communicate with him on the issues raised with regard to the disallowance of the question by the Ceann Comhairle's office.

Mr. Deasy

A Department is making an assertion and has no numbers to back it up. It refuses to give the numbers to a Member because they do not have them in the first place.

Mr. Costello

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

The House will hear Deputy Costello, on a point of order. I would ask Deputy Deasy to be orderly. He has been there for six minutes and what he has said is totally repetitive. I would ask him to give way to Deputy Costello.

Mr. Deasy

You have to be disorderly around here. This is fundamental in our society. If you do not know how many crimes are being committed or the effectiveness of legislation, what chance do you have of improving the situation? You cannot do it. This Department has misled this House and the Ministers have no answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Mr. Deasy

I am demanding an answer here. It is absolutely fundamental.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. O'Dea)

We are not allowed to answer by the Ceann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister of State wants to intervene.

Mr. O'Dea

I am happy to answer questions put by any Member of this House if they are allowed by the Chair. I cannot answer questions that are not allowed on the Order Paper.

Mr. Deasy

How come the Minister of State made a statement——

Mr. O'Dea

The Deputy's former leader, Deputy Bruton, told us to ask the right questions when we were in Opposition. Obviously, the Deputy is not asking the questions properly.

Mr. Deasy

Can the Minister tell me why that statement was made? He has not a clue. He is making this stuff up as he goes along.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call on Deputy Costello. I would ask Deputy Deasy to give way.

Mr. Deasy

I am staying here and I am going to demand answers.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has disobeyed the Chair and will have to leave the House.

Mr. Deasy

Does the Minister of State have an answer and does he have the figures?

Mr. O'Dea

Yes. I cannot answer the question——

Mr. Deasy

The guards told you before you enacted this that it was worthless. It was a public relations exercise from the start and the reason the Minister of State does not want to respond is that it has been exposed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Deasy will have to leave the House. If the Deputy does not resume his seat he will have to leave the House.

Mr. Deasy

I am not going to resume my seat.

An Ceann Comhairle

Then the Deputy will leave the House.

Mr. Deasy

If the Minister of State cannot answer that fundamental question he has no business being here. This is a sham. This procedure is a complete and utter charade.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is left with no option but to suspend the sitting, and there will be no questions. If the Deputy wants to resume his seat he should do so.

Mr. Deasy

I am not going to do so.

An Ceann Comhairle

As the Deputy will not resume his seat the sitting is suspended for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 3.40 p.m. and resumed at 3.55 p.m.

Mr. Deasy

I will resume where I left off. This is a fundamental point that affects people's safety and security. Justice legislation is churned out and much of it is not enforced or is unenforceable. It must be dealt with on a scientific basis. The Minister made a statement based on the facts according to him but he is not able to provide a Member with statistics. That is a fundamental point as far as this business is concerned and what I do, as a Member, on behalf of the people I represent.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has requested the Deputy to leave the House and he leaves the Chair with no option but to move his suspension from the House.