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National Security.

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 9 March 2004

Tuesday, 9 March 2004

Questions (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)

Enda Kenny

Question:

4 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the most recent work of the high-level group established under his Department to monitor developments after the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1047/04]

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Trevor Sargent

Question:

5 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will report on any recent meetings of the high-level group established under his Department to monitor developments following the terrorist attacks of September 2001; whether there has been any increase in the number of meetings of this group held or planned to be held during the Irish EU Presidency; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1283/04]

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Joe Higgins

Question:

6 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the recent work of the high-level group established within his Department in the aftermath of the 11 September atrocity. [1830/04]

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Pat Rabbitte

Question:

7 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if the high-level group established within his Department after 11 September 2001 is still in existence; if he will report on its recent work; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2899/04]

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Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Question:

8 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach when the interdepartmental group on national security last met; its purpose and functions; its programme of work for 2004; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4775/04]

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Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Question:

9 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach if the high-level group established in his Department in the wake of the September 11 2001 atrocities is still in existence; if so, its programme of work; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5626/04]

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Oral answers (39 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 to 9, inclusive, together.

The national security committee, which is chaired by the Secretary General to the Government, comprises representatives at the highest level of the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Defence and Foreign Affairs, the Garda and the Defence Forces.

The committee continues to meet as required and members liaise on an ongoing basis to monitor developments which might have national security implications, in particular in the international arena.

It is concerned with ensuring that I and the Government are advised of high-level security issues and the responses to them, but not involving operational security issues. It would not be appropriate for me to disclose information about the work of the committee.

The Government received a report last October from the emergency planning society which clearly criticised the piecemeal approach to planning for emergencies in Ireland. It recommended that since 11 September 2001, a single body with responsibility for security should be established and should report to the highest office in Government. Has the interdepartmental group established to monitor security and terrorist threats considered the report by the Emergency Planning Society? Does the Taoiseach accept the findings of the report which stated that weaknesses in Ireland's emergency planning were highlighted in the way the SARS threat was dealt with? The society also stated that the Government reaction to a possible nuclear threat highlighted the inadequacy of our preparations. I recall the former Minister of State, Deputy Jacob, sending a letter and two iodine tablets to every household in the country.

A year later.

Has any check been carried out on the whereabouts of the iodine tablets? Is it proposed to issue updated iodine tablets to every household again? Given that the US Government will apply a great deal of pressure to have Mr. bin Laden brought to heel before the US presidential election, has the interdepartmental group received any updated information on the possibility of nuclear threats in Britain which, obviously, would have an impact on Ireland?

The Minister for Defence through the Office of Emergency Planning and the task force on emergency planning oversees emergency planning to promote the best possible use of State resources and to ensure compatibility between different emergency planning requirements. The Office of Emergency Planning is established on an administrative basis. It is appropriate, from time to time, to consider whether its work needs to be supported by a statutory framework regarding emergency planning, and this is what happens. The Government will consider any detailed proposals which the Minister, in light of experience, may wish to make in that regard.

Emergency issues involve not only defence and security, but also health, transport and aviation. It is not possible and would not make sense to break these sectors away from their parent Departments and make them the responsibility of one agency. However, when Departments are required to co-operate or to have an input, they do so. This makes for much better functional operation of emergency planning arrangements.

The report of the Emergency Planning Society, referred to by Deputy Kenny, envisages greater integration of emergency services by amalgamation of responsibility for managing energies into a single agency. As previously indicated, substantial costs would be associated with that approach. Moreover, responses to different types of emergency require different skills, experience and resources. For example, dealing with a marine oil pollution incident is different from reacting to a foot and mouth disease threat.

One unit cannot do everything and, therefore, it is best that primary responsibility remains with the agency with the relevant know-how and expertise. Obviously, when experts are required, they will be brought in. The system is small enough to easily allow for that, as was the case in the context of foot and mouth disease and after 11 September 2001. The Minister for Defence previously welcomed the interest of the Emergency Planning Society and he has ensured its report had a wide circulation among Departments with emergency planning responsibilities, which was useful.

With regard to SARS, the Government is satisfied that the steps taken by the Minister for Health and Children and the health authorities were adequate, proportionate, balanced and, above all, successful. The Department of Health and Children continues to monitor the situation and will continue to initiate further appropriate action with regard to China, if necessary.

What about the iodine tablets?

The Deputy has a supply.

Are they out of date yet?

They are not. In any case, it could be too late for the Deputy, for other reasons.

It is never too late.

I asked the Taoiseach whether an increased number of meetings of the high level group had been held or were planned during the Irish EU Presidency. It would be appropriate to know this and whether, in preparation for the visit of President Bush of the United States, an increased number of meetings will be required. Has there been an evaluation of the cost factor, given that in London additional security measures cost approximately £1 million per day? In our case gardaí and soldiers will be used. Has this matter been examined? Obviously it will require some budgetary considerations as well as operational considerations on the ground.

Have any requests been made by the US for immunity for Secret Service agents and snipers? Such requests were made of the British authorities. Has the Government considered this? The British authorities were also asked about a sterile zone being created around President Bush in which only American security personnel would be given free rein, though I do not think the British acceded to that.

Has the US made such requests and has the high level group discussed them? Will the Government make a decision on those matters?

The high level group deals with issues relating to 9/11 and international terrorism. It meets more or less monthly, though when necessary it met on a weekly basis. Last year it met eight times. There is a fairly well-run system operated by the US which deals with the matters raised by the Deputy and that system is demanding enough no matter who the President is. An advance party lays down very stringent regulations based on their reports on the assassination of John F. Kennedy 40 years ago. That party goes through the same procedures — I have seen it done many times — and that is the case on this occasion also. However, this is a matter for the Garda in the first instance and even if the force needs more back-up there is no real change here. The procedure is the same as that used for the visit of President Clinton.

Is there a cost?

Undoubtedly there is a cost.

Do we pay?

The country pays. We always pay our security costs. That is why it is important that our citizens do not increase that cost or rent a crowd from elsewhere to raise the cost.

The people of Ireland would be interested to hear that 100,000 of them on the streets last February could be described as a rent-a-crowd.

I am thinking of the future, not the past.

I will have something to say to the Taoiseach later on about that.

A question, Deputy.

I am being provoked.

Does the Taoiseach agree that the way he described the national security committee gives us the image of a very shadowy body? Apart from the Secretary to the Government he has not told us who is on the committee apart from mentioning a number of Departments. Will he elaborate on that? Has the national security committee received communications from the US government on its wish to pressurise Irish airlines to provide US intelligence services with comprehensive lists of passengers flying to the US? Has the committee advised the Taoiseach of that? What are his views on that?

Does the committee give the Taoiseach regular advice or briefings on his Government's facilitating the US war machine on an ongoing basis by continuing the use of Shannon to facilitate the US occupation of Iraq? What was the committee's advice on that matter?

There is no secret about the committee. It involves the Garda and the Army, so the Garda Commissioner and the Army Chief of Staff are on the committee, as are officials of the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Health and Children, Transport and Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. There is no secret about those matters.

The committee does not monitor what is going on in Iraq. It deals with any threats to Ireland from international terrorism as well as any other information picked up by international security agencies of which we need to be aware. Nowadays there is more interest in and concern about those who move and who are involved with international terrorist organisations.

The committee is all the time trying to improve our services and administration to deal with nuclear difficulties or any other major security difficulties. As I said, the Minister brought the Emergency Planning Society's report of last year to all Departments and many changes were made on the basis of that report to improve our system.

What about the airlines?

In terms of airlines, in any issue of concern about aviation, they are involved any time we require it. As the Deputy knows, new security arrangements are in place for cockpits and in regard to carrying implements on aeroplanes. The United States has been pressing for new security arrangements in airports.

For passengers.

For passengers and crew.

I wish to ask the Taoiseach about an interview given by the Minister for Defence to Catherine Cleary of The Sunday Tribune on 29 December 2002 in which he promised to set up a new secret intelligence body to deal with terrorists. He said: “We have done a lot of work and there has been a great deal of co-operation between the various Departments.” He said it was something he was considering and that he would come to a decision early in the new year. Has the Government come to a decision on that? Is it considered necessary to establish a new intelligence body to deal with terrorists or what is the status of that proposal?

The answer to that question is no. What was considered was to have better working relationships and better communications with, and better planning between the organisations I mentioned earlier, and that has happened. Obviously, it is administratively easier to do that and it does not require the resources necessary to set up a new agency. There is far better co-operation now between the international bodies and agencies. The supply and flow of information on organisations, individuals and movements is now totally different from that before 11 September 2001. From time to time, that puts pressure on the resources of the agencies but one does not need a new agency to do that.

The Minister said in the same interview that that would be one of his priorities in preparation for the Presidency. Do I take it from what the Taoiseach has said that that notion is dead and the idea of us going around referring to the Minister for Defence as "M" or something like that is not likely to occur? Was it a Christmas time interview?

The Deputy can take it that that is not necessary. On a serious note, the level of time taken up, because of international intelligence, on checking, planning and monitoring is different from what was the case. Something must give, admittedly. The Minister was referring to how one would handle that position in the event that it continued. Quite an amount of resources must be used, because of international intelligence, by far better resourced organisations than ours. Our regulations on the movement of people generally, how we monitor individuals who move or travel in the country, are nothing like those in other countries. I am not advocating that it should be either, but it means that existing security resources can be stretched by demands made upon them. Such resources have been greatly increased in many other countries, as well as by Interpol. The people who are monitoring these matters are feeding in information all the time, of which we receive quite an amount, although it is small compared to what is fed into the UK or France. Nonetheless, it is a new source of work for the existing agencies, including the Garda Síochána.

Does the Taoiseach recall that in a written reply to a parliamentary question I tabled last month, he indicated that the interdepartmental group on national security was established in 1974 in the context of what he called "the overspill of the Northern Ireland situation"? In his reply, the Taoiseach also said that the group now focused almost exclusively on the security of Government buildings. Given that the Taoiseach used the term "almost exclusively", does that mean that some part of the group's work continues, in effect, to address what he broadly referred to as "the overspill of the Northern Ireland situation"? If that is the case, will the Taoiseach please elaborate and outline to us exactly what he meant in that reply?

With regard to my second question, as the high level group established in the Taoiseach's Department in the wake of the 11 September 2001 atrocities, continues to operate, has it considered wider matters of security and foreign policy? For instance, has the high level group considered the recent address by the US Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, to American troops massed at Shannon Airport? Has that matter been addressed? Did that action on the part of Mr. Rumsfeld have the prior approval of the Government? Did the Government give approval for that event to take place in our country and, if so, will the Taoiseach explain why? If approval was not given for the use of an Irish airport by Donald Rumsfeld to address US troops massed there, what action has the Taoiseach taken, on behalf of the people, to register disapproval of the event and its unacceptability, as well as to insist that it should not be repeated?

A brief final question from Deputy Jim O'Keeffe.

Would you allow the Taoiseach to reply?

Does the Taoiseach accept that the public cannot take any great assurance from his responses today? Would he accept that the situation does not seem to have improved to any great degree since the time of the iodine debacle? The Taoiseach's replies are a bit like the Skibbereen Eagle keeping an eye on the Czar, whereas he is keeping an eye on Osama bin Laden.

From the point of view of our EU Presidency, has the Taoiseach done anything to improve the security situation as far as the European Union and Ireland are concerned? To take a practical example, what would happen if a plane hijacked by terrorists was en route to Dublin? How would such an incident be dealt with?

As I stated in a recent reply to Deputy Ó Caoláin, the national security committee is now dealing with far more international issues than heretofore. The committee would also have taken into account incidents on the Border and activities of that nature, but it does so far less now than previously. There are incidents on the Border and one of the Deputy's colleagues raised such an incident, involving incursions, in the House a few weeks ago.

As regards Mr. Rumsfeld, a procedure has been set down by the Department of Transport. Any flights landing here, or fly-overs, have to go through that procedure and I am sure that in that case it did. The Deputy should table a question to the relevant Minister to obtain the details.

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe is wrong. After 11 September 2001, this country, like every other country, changed its procedures. Accident and emergency procedures were not in place nor was, the task force on emergency planning which oversees emergencies generally. That task force has introduced procedures, early detection and equipment and specialised staff have been trained. The position is entirely different. Like many things in the world, it is a pity there had to be such a tragedy for everybody to engage in such procedures. However, procedures, early detection and equipment that we did not have are available and both the Army and the Garda have been trained in emergency planning. We have different procedures from what we had even two years ago.

What about planes——

That concludes Taoiseach's questions. We are moving to questions to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs.

The Deputy should table a question to the relevant Minister.

He is beside the Taoiseach.

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