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State Laboratory.

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 23 March 2004

Tuesday, 23 March 2004

Questions (12, 13, 14)

Kathleen Lynch

Question:

10 Ms Lynch asked the Minister for Finance the total costs incurred to date arising from all aspects of the transfer of the State laboratory from its present location at Abbotstown to its new location at Backweston; the estimated final cost of the transfer; if compensation has been paid to staff for the transfer; if all the staff have agreed to transfer; the steps that are being taken to ensure that the transfer does not lead to further delays in the completion of tests, especially in view of the serious concerns expressed by coroners at the delays in inquests; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8930/04]

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Fergus O'Dowd

Question:

13 Mr. O’Dowd asked the Minister for Finance if his attention has been drawn to the delays in the State laboratory; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8705/04]

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Joe Costello

Question:

39 Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Finance if his attention has been drawn to the serious concern expressed by coroners at delays in inquests as a result of the inability of the State laboratory to complete test results; the steps being taken to deal with this situation in view of the distress caused to families by such delays; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6259/04]

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Oral answers (28 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 10, 13 and 39 together.

The costs incurred to date of building the new State laboratory is €53.3 million. In addition, €9 million has been provided for equipment in the 2004 Estimate for the State laboratory, but none of this has been spent to date. I have also sanctioned up to six supernumerary posts for the laboratory to manage the procurement of equipment and the actual relocation. The estimated cost of these for the transitional period is approximately €165,000. The overall final cost of the facility at Backweston is estimated to be €87.5 million.

As the Deputy will be aware, the Government decided in 1983 that the payment of disturbance compensation in public sector employments should be discontinued for moves on or after 1 January 1984. This decision was taken following concern at disturbance payments being made to public servants who were being relocated to better premises and often moving short distances. Therefore, compensation payments for staff moving from Abbotstown to Backweston do not arise.

I am informed by the State Chemist that all laboratory staff are co-operating fully in the preparations for the relocation, which will take place in stages between May and July. The project team will have the new location and equipment ready for each of the nine sections of the laboratory which will then move in turn, keeping disruption of testing and other laboratory procedures to a minimum. Particular care will be taken in this regard in the case of the toxicology section which handles reports for the coroners.

I am conscious of the importance of the service provided to the coroners by the State Laboratory and the impact it inevitably has on relatives of people whose deaths are the subject of inquests at a time of great distress. I know the management of the laboratory share that sensitivity and constantly monitor the service by reviewing available resources, out-sourcing possibilities and the complexity of analyses.

Additional resources have been allocated to the toxicology section and there has been a substantial increase in the number of analyses completed. However, there is still a backlog of cases due to an increase of 50% in the past two years in the number of cases referred, and a general increase in the complexity of the analyses required.

A range of measures are being taken at present to reduce the turnaround time of samples sent to the laboratory and processed by its toxicology section. Additional priority is to be given to coroners' cases over other work of the section.

Laboratory management is also reviewing the procedures and processes in the toxicology area with a view to automating as much as possible.

The possibilities of reducing the complexity of testing were discussed between the State Laboratory and the coroners and their representatives, as doing so would have an immediate impact on turnaround times. However, it was not considered possible to reduce the complexity of tests performed by the laboratory in view of the constant demand from families for comprehensive analysis, the increasing complexity of the cocktail of drugs potentially taken by victims which requires sequential analyses to be carried out and the coroners' requirement for quality analytical data, which will withstand scrutiny in a court.

I am told by the management of the laboratory that the completion of the relocation to Backweston will enable the enhancement of the quality of service provided to all its clients, including the coroners' service.

When did the move to Backweston begin and how long will it be before civil servants occupy the new facilities?

I understand from the Minister's reply that no industrial relations problems remain in regard to the movement of civil servants from Abbotstown to Backweston. Have the civil servants and unions concerned agreed to move to Backweston without any further need for negotiation or dispute?

On a previous occasion the Minister said special measures had been taken to speed up the turnaround times of tests. I recently read reports of a coroner's inquest in the Minister's constituency in Kildare. Delays in such cases cause additional grief to relatives of deceased persons, some of whom have to wait for more than a year for results. Not alone have their relatives died in distressing circumstances, but the grief of families is compounded by the fact that they are unable to complete the coroner's court procedures. This is a cause of great distress, particularly where young people have died and parents have to wait for up to a year for tests to be carried out.

I am interested in hearing the total length of time required to develop and complete the facilities at Backweston. Will the Minister confirm that there are no further industrial relations procedures to be negotiated?

The State Laboratory buildings are due for completion around the beginning of May 2004 with the agricultural laboratories due for completion in January 2005. A total of 109 staff will transfer to the State Laboratory.

When did the project start?

Building started in April 2002.

Was it not announced much earlier?

A decision was made on the relocation of the State and agricultural laboratories about a month after we announced the closing of Abbotstown for the stadium.

Can the Minister refresh my memory? What was that date?

I cannot remember the date of the Abbotstown decision. The project went to tender and was put in train by the Office of Public Works. I have reason to remember when the work started because I kindly turned the first sod in 2002.

The Minister is never shy when it comes to turning sods.

The buildings are going ahead and the State Laboratory building is due for completion around the start of May this year and the agricultural laboratories in January 2005. My colleague, Deputy Parlon, informs me that it is on schedule and within budget. I understand the transfer of staff and business from the State Laboratory will take place in the period from May to July.

Deputy Burton also inquired about industrial relations matters and compensation payments.

I asked if all industrial relations matters were resolved.

I have been informed that all staff are co-operating with the preparatory arrangements for Backweston. They are actively participating in various logistical and equipment sub-committees under the partnership process. Staff have not indicated disagreement with their transfer, but have made a claim for compensation which is being considered under conciliation and arbitration procedures.

The Minister said he had ruled out compensation.

Although a claim has been lodged, they will not get it.

Civil servants make claims all the time. Such claims are considered by means of a conciliation and arbitration procedure. A Government, which comprised Fine Gael and the Labour Party, decided in 1983 that disturbance payments should no longer be made.

For the information of the Deputy, a survey was conducted by staff which indicated an average extra journey distance of 3.25 miles and an average extra journey time of 15 minutes. This is not something which justifies the payment of compensation. The information came to light from a survey conducted by the staff involved in the move. Deputy Richard Bruton and I had to walk further to go to school.

Deputy Burton also asked an important question on coroners' cases. I am concerned by the distress caused to families by delays. The reason for it is the increased demand by coroners for toxicology reports and the increased complexity of the tests required. These factors have combined to negate the effect of the additional staffing resource allocation of 29% secured over the period 2000 to 2004. The annual figures for samples received from coroners indicate a steep rise in the demand for this service, namely a 50% rise since 2001. I will not go through all the figures, but the sample numbers received in 1999 was 1,395, in 2000 it was 1,570, in 2001 it was 1,730, in 2002 it was 2,275 and in 2003 it was 2,590. More importantly, the complexity of the tests required has also increased, so despite additional resources and a large increase in the number of tests carried out, the backlog has remained.

Some recent changes have been made to alleviate the situation. Professor Denis Cusack is the coroner for County Kildare. He is also the head of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety. In the past month or so, arrangements have been made to terminate the laboratory's involvement in a pilot project on drug abuse for drivers which was being carried out by the Medical Bureau of Road Safety. Project samples accounted for 10% of samples handled by the laboratory's toxicology section and were the most time consuming samples it handled. When samples from this project, which ended last month, have worked through the system, there should be a positive effect on the backlog of samples for the coroners' service.

My question is on the same subject. I am sure the Minister has also had constituency cases on this matter. It is extraordinarily difficult to explain to people how it can take six or nine months to get a toxicology report. They then discover that the doctor who originally admitted them has moved on and there is another long delay to obtain the pathologist's report. Can the Minister get the State Laboratory to look at international best practice in speeding up the handling of imminent inquests? It is unacceptable to leave families without access to life insurance policies and many other services for such a long time. There must be a way to conduct tests in less than six to nine months if this problem is addressed with fresh ideas. I am heartened to hear the Minister state that some changes are being made that will shorten the delay. However, we need to look at best practice and streamline the priorities going through the office.

Apart from the change to which I referred in reply to Deputy Burton, there are other changes which have been carried out by the State Laboratory. First, the current processing of tests is being reviewed in order to make the test procedure more streamlined; that is to minimise the number of staff engaged in checking the results of tests. That is called a business process re-engineering. Second, a new laboratory information management system has been installed with laboratory instrumentation connected. This will improve workflow and the turnaround time for tests. Third, there has been a change regarding the involvement of the laboratory in the pilot project on drug abuse for drivers. This is being carried out by the Medical Bureau of Road Safety. I agree with Deputy Richard Bruton that this is a matter of some concern and a number of representations have been made to me from my own constituency and from people around the country who have written to me personally about the delays. The changes that have been made will hopefully expedite the processing of these tests. There has been a dramatic increase in the number and complexity of tests. Despite a 29% increase in staff there has still been a delay. The changes to which I referred should help matters. I will certainly keep it under review.

Prior to the announcement to move the State Laboratory from Abbottstown, there was still a considerable amount of scientific investigation that had to be outsourced outside the jurisdiction. Will the move facilitate the transfer of all such scientific investigation to the new facilities? Has the Department of Finance any costing on the investigations that had to be outsourced during the course of the move from Abbottstown to Backweston?

Irrespective of the decision on Abbottstown, the Department was going to have to spend a lot of money on its laboratories. There was a programme which had already started at that time. In moving to Backweston the new location is not far from Abbottstown.

It is just across the river.

That is correct and it will be easier for most people to get there, with deference to the Deputy's constituency. These will be state-of-the-art facilities with standards comparable to the best laboratory facilities in the European Union and the United States. They will be capable of achieving international acceptance and accreditation. It will meet the requirements of European Union directives and will adhere to fire safety codes, health and safety and building regulations, and it will also provide specialist containment facilities. We should be in a position to carry out all tests in the newly constructed laboratories in Abbottstown. Between the completion of the State Laboratory in 2004 and the agricultural laboratories in 2005, Ireland will have first-class facilities.

Does the Minister have any figures on the outsourcing?

I do not have those figures but I can obtain them.

Does the Minister agree that it would be a great help to the families involved in the tragedies where tests are required, if there was more published information available? Would it not help if the Minister or some other appropriate official established a working group to set out the procedures on coroners' courts from the families point of view? In some deaths the toxicology reports are formally necessary but are not absolutely necessary because the person involved is unlikely to have been using a drug. However, all sorts of family issues from property to life insurance policies are delayed. Would it be possible to set up some kind of service for the families involved, as has been done with regard to Victim Support and crime? Very often the families are left on their own to phone the coroner's court. The Minister spoke about personally receiving representations on the matter. There is very little information available and I am sure that like myself, the Minister has had to contact coroners' offices. It is an area where I think something could be done, through provision of information and support, to assist an already bereaved family. Would the Minister be agreeable to doing that?

I would like to see how everything turns out when the changes to which I referred are carried out. When the new laboratories are up and running and have had a few months to get their affairs in order, I will keep these matters under review. I do not have any principled objection to the matter to which the Deputy refers, but I am not too sure how it would help the victims. Perhaps the knowledge would help, but I think that people are so traumatised by the death of a close relative that I am not too sure whether that would help. It is my intention that as a result of the improved facilities, these tests will be carried out more expeditiously. I am willing to keep it under consideration.

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