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Public Private Partnerships.

Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 14 October 2004

Thursday, 14 October 2004

Questions (3)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Question:

3 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Minister for Finance the changes which have been implemented by his Department in the way in which public private partnership projects are developed and managed, based on experience of the grouped school pilot partnership project as outlined in the value for money report of the Comptroller and Auditor General published on 28 September 2004; if his Department has examined the wider implications for continued use of PPPs in delivering infrastructure; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24849/04]

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Oral answers (35 contributions)

Does the Minister accept that——

The Deputy should allow the Minister to read his reply.

Deputy Ó Caoláin is not in Government with Fianna Fáil yet.

In June 1999, the Government approved a programme of pilot PPP projects. The aim of the pilot projects was to learn practical lessons about how PPP processes can be developed in Ireland to contribute to the delivery of infrastructure programmes generally. The grouped schools project was the first of the pilot projects procured on a design, build, finance and operate basis.

Arising from the early experience of these PPP pilot projects my Department issued guidelines on the procedures for the assessment, approval, audit and procurement of PPP projects. These guidelines, which were published in July 2003, set out checks and balances to be applied in PPP procurement to achieve value for money. They outline the steps involved and introduce new requirements appropriate to PPP procurement. The Comptroller and Auditor General acknowledges this in the report and notes that lessons learned during the PPP pilot projects in the education, transport and environment sectors, including the grouped schools project, have been incorporated into the guidelines. Two significant developments include the setting of an affordability cap which is the maximum allowable budget for a project and the appointment of a process auditor in large projects to ensure that all required regulatory and administrative steps have been taken in the process prior to contract signing. My Department is engaged in the process of producing more detailed guidelines on specific aspects of the PPP procurement process.

I have noted what the Minister said. Does he accept that it is extraordinary that the Comptroller and Auditor General's report indicates it is expected this pilot project will likely turn out to be between 8% and 13% more expensive than traditional procurement and operation? Is it not also extraordinary that that report states that the Department of Education and Science should have concluded it was likely the PPP approach to procurement would work out at between 13% and 19% more expensive than conventional procurement? Does the Minister acknowledge that this was the — I emphasise the word "the"— pilot project in terms of the Government's testing of the value for money from the PPP approach and that in this particular instance the project has clearly failed that test? Given the Department of Education and Science set no budget or spending limit for the project and estimated it would be 6% cheaper, has the Government reconsidered the PPP approach, especially in the delivery of projects signalled under the national development plan?

I would like to put a simple question to Deputy Ó Caoláin.

I have asked a question of the Minister.

I will answer the question in this way. If the Deputy prefers I can simply read the reply. Would the Deputy have a problem if any of the schools in Tubbercurry, Dunmanway, Clones, Ballincollig and Shannon had been built in Cavan-Monaghan?

One of them is in Cavan-Monaghan.

Of course the Deputy would not have a problem then and I will tell him why.

If the Minister knew his geography he would know Clones is in Cavan-Monaghan.

The Deputy should allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

I have spoken to people——

The Minister should answer the question.

——who have spoken with the parents in those areas and they are delighted with the projects.

So have I. Is this the way the Minister is going to continue?

Let me move on to the next point.

This is outrageous.

When Deputy Ó Caoláin and others ask how the Government will speed up projects——

The Minister answered Deputy Burton's question in the same manner.

Are we to have a chat or is the Deputy going to continue interrupting?

The Minister should answer the question.

I will. I have no problem answering it.

Deputy Ó Caoláin should allow the Minister to reply without interruption. Also, if the Minister were to address his remarks through the Chair and not directly to the Deputy, there might be fewer interruptions.

The Chair is a far more preferable representative of the constituency than the Deputy who tabled the question. I will direct my reply to the Chair.

The Chair cannot be involved in any debate in the House, on questions or otherwise.

(Interruptions).

Is the partnership off?

The value for money of that project will best be gauged over its 25 year life span. Those projects are up and running much quicker than under traditional arrangements. There are people in my constituency who are anxious to find out when their school merger projects will be included in PPP, and if people are not like that in the Deputy's constituency, he must live in another country. These parents have gone to see these schools and they know, as I know, that if they become part of a PPP pilot project like this one, the lessons from the early days of the process will be learned. If we try new ways of doing things, we learn as we go along.

If we were to depend, however, on the traditional procedures of the Department to get those five schools up and running, the Deputy and I both know they would not be built. That is a fact. We should not suggest, as the Deputy did, that the PPP is a failure as it is not. We must learn lessons as we go along and take into account some of the recommendations from the Comptroller and Auditor General. The quality of schooling available in those schools and the quality of the work environment for the teachers are much better but are not part of any tangible asset on a balance sheet that would be considered in an audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

We are politicians and while I respect the duty of the Comptroller and Auditor General to give his views on these matters because he has a job to do in terms of value for money in public procurement projects, I also know the PPP process is important if we are to deal with many of the infrastructural deficits about which the Opposition often moan. If the Deputy contends that we can do this through a traditional capital programme while staying within the stability and growth pact guidelines, he is not up to speed about what is available and what is possible.

The rationale of the Government is that the savings made through PPPs providing capital investment could be better spent by the State. If the pilot project proves that there are no savings, does that not suggest there should be a re-evaluation? Of course it does. Does the Minister not accept that if there are no savings, the rationale must be questioned? That is the result of this test case. Clones is in my constituency and I am familiar with the satisfaction with the schooling in the school.

The Chair cannot be flexible in future with time if Deputies abuse the time limits laid down in Standing Orders.

The Chair should address those remarks to the Minister, who used up more of the time than I did.

If the Deputy did not interrupt me, he could have asked two supplementary questions. A continuing evaluation of PPP processes, not a re-evaluation, to ensure they can be part of the drive to improve our infrastructural deficit is the considered and rational policy response.

Is the Minister acknowledging that this PPP has failed? It did not meet the criteria laid out.

It has not failed. We have restricted the criteria. There will be further lessons to be learned from this first pilot project and, in the nature of any pilot project, we learn and improve as we go along. We do not decide that because there were some problems with the outline, which can be addressed in future PPP projects, it was a bad idea in the first place.

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