Joe Higgins
Question:1 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach when he expects to receive a report from Mr. Justice Henry Barron. [18923/05]
View answerWednesday, 22 June 2005
Questions (1, 2, 3, 4)
Pat Rabbitte
Question:2 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach when he expects to receive the next report from Mr. Justice Barron; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20739/05]
View answer
Enda Kenny
Question:3 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach when he next expects to receive a report from Mr. Justice Barron; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20755/05]
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Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Question:4 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach the further reports he expects to receive from Mr. Justice Barron; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20935/05]
View answerOral answers (12 contributions)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.
Mr. Justice Barron previously reported on the Dublin-Monaghan bombings of 1974 and on the Dublin bombings of 1972 and 1973 and other events prior to 1974. Those two reports were subsequently examined and reported on by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. The report on the murder of Seamus Ludlow is with the Government and we are checking what must be redacted for legal reasons. The issues are complex but I hope the report can be referred to the committee in the coming weeks.
I expect to receive the report of the Independent Commission of Inquiry into the Dundalk Bombings of 1975 and other events from Mr. Justice Barron at the end of this month. It will then be considered by the Government, as with the previous reports. This will complete Mr. Justice Barron's reports.
That reply is similar to the answer we got from the Taoiseach on this matter on 11 May. In this regard, I wish to ask him in particular about the Seamus Ludlow murder and Mr. Justice Barron's third report. The Taoiseach told us on 11 May that he expected the report would be forwarded to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights in the coming weeks. That has not been done and I presume he understands why this leads to its own suspicions, especially having regard to the speculation that surrounds this murder in terms of who may have been involved.
Will the Taoiseach say when this report will be referred to the committee? What consideration has the Government given to the recommendation that the British Government deserves to be the subject of a case in the European Court of Human Rights arising from what appears to be its manifest failure to co-operate on the investigation of this affair?
I answered a question on this quite recently, perhaps more recently than 11 May. I believe it was Deputy Costello who put the question on that occasion. In all cases such as that regarding Seamus Ludlow, I try to ensure the related report is released in as complete a form as possible without any redacting. The legal concern is that names are mentioned and the Deputy will appreciate that this has its own consequences. I hope this matter, which is currently under consideration, will be resolved without necessitating the release of too bald a statement. I prefer such reports to be as complete as possible upon release but there are problems in that regard.
Mr. Justice Barron now hopes to complete all his work before the holiday period at the end of July. His final report on the Dundalk bombings of 1975 and some other events will be presented to us within the next four weeks and his work will then be completed. This summer, we will, I hope, explore legal issues surrounding that bombing. I have not yet seen the Dundalk report or some of the others but, if there are names, we will have to follow the same checking process.
On the second question, I did as I promised by raising the issue with the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, at last week's meeting. Our discussions were short because we focused on European issues and did not have a detailed meeting on Northern Ireland. However, there will be a British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference next week, when I will follow this issue through.
Last week, I notified the Prime Minister of the debate in this House. I reiterated to him that I had an obligation to the House which had worked with me on this matter for the past five years and that in all cases I followed the views of the Oireachtas committee but that I would prefer for this matter to be resolved by the provision of information and assistance from the British side. I asked him to examine this matter before next Monday's meeting. We did not return last week to the blow by blows we have had on this matter. I will undoubtedly do that again next Monday. As I noted in my response to a previous question from Deputy Costello, I do not intend to drag the matter out. They will either do it or will not. If they will not do it, we must move on according to the wish of the Oireachtas committee.
Following on from the reply given to Deputy Rabbitte, did the Taoiseach raise the matter with the new British Government and the Prime Minister? Earlier this month, the Taoiseach said that he would make a further attempt with the British Government but, if it were not forthcoming, he would then seek legal advice. What is his instinct, which is sharply honed in terms of the British Government, on this matter? Does he believe legal advice will have to be taken and, if so, is he making preparations for that? Has the British Government displayed any openness by announcing that it would initiate an inquiry into the allegation of collusion in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings?
As Deputy Kenny would expect, I do not want to pre-empt the question I asked him. He knows my feelings on this. I raised the issue last week in precisely the manner stated here.
I do not want to get into a European scene if that can be avoided. I have become an expert observer of the British security scene and have learned how it operates. I wish I knew how it worked on the inside but that is a different matter. I made the point that it would be far easier if the British system as well as Government co-operated on this matter. If this had been done a few years ago, these aspects would have been concluded. We will have to follow the other route if this is not forthcoming. I hope that they will change their mind on this matter.
I spoke briefly to the new Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, went through the matter in detail with him. I raised it with the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, last week. His senior officials were with him on that occasion. They know our views and are aware of the content of the Oireachtas report. I know that some Members have also taken the opportunity to make the British authorities aware of our views on an all-party basis.
The Taoiseach states that he does not intend to drag the matter out. However, other Members have noted that when the issue was last addressed in this House, he said he would raise it at his next meeting with Mr. Blair and would offer a final opportunity to establish an inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. Will the Taoiseach be frank with the House and tell us whether he raised this issue with the British Prime Minister? Did he put the issue to him and, if so, what reply was received? It was reported at the weekend that the Taoiseach will again meet the British Prime Minister in the coming week. Will that be the new last chance?
Has the Government reached a decision on whether it will proceed with a case to the European court if the British do not establish an inquiry? Will the Taoiseach advise us on the Cabinet's position on this matter?
Has a response been received from the British Prime Minister to the concerns expressed by Members over the British inquiries Act? This is totally unacceptable legislation. I have discussed these concerns with the Taoiseach on previous occasions. Did he raise them with the British Prime Minister and is there any indication that they are prepared to amend this legislation?
I do not want to be guilty of repetition. Deputy Rabbitte asked all but the last question put by Deputy Ó Caoláin. To briefly restate my reply, I said here a few weeks ago that I would raise the matter with the Prime Minister at my next meeting with him. I did so last Wednesday but our discussions primarily concerned the European Council meeting. I told him that I expect the British position to be presented next week, when a full session of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Council will be held. I hope that they co-operate and change their stance. By doing so, they would make it much easier for the Government, the Oireachtas committee and the whole process. We have repeatedly stated our position and Members have as well. They understand the message from this House and it has entered their system.
The Cabinet is not pre-empting matters because I will have to report back if the answer is "No". We will then have to ask the Attorney General for legal advice on implementing further steps. As I noted to Deputy Costello during a previous Question Time, that is our position. I do not see it continuing beyond next week, unless they ask for time to consider. They are aware that they are on notice next week to provide an answer, that we have pressed the issue at length and, if they will not assist us, we want to move to next phase. I believe they are wrong in this issue. I waited until a new Government had been formed and left it for a few months during the pre-election period. We restated our position and will see what happens.
Regrettably, the legislation on commissions of investigation is now law. Deputy Ó Caoláin is aware that I opposed it at every stage and made this clear. I am glad that many people used my arguments in speeches in the Houses of Commons and Lords. However, the legislation was proceeded with. To be frank, I do not see any chance that it will be changed. That is not the state of mind. They have made up their mind that this is the way they will go. It creates difficulties for us, particularly in terms of the Finucane case, which we are attempting to address. We do not see how the commission of investigation legislation honours the position agreed in Weston Park.
I was careful in Weston Park in 2001 having learned from experience the need to be precise about what I agreed to. A detailed position of what we believed was written in. We were equally careful when we brought that forward to Mr. Justice Cory. Rather than quoting myself, I will cite the judge. Mr. Justice Cory, who is independent and was jointly appointed as opposed to being my appointee, made it absolutely clear he does not believe the legislation under investigation by the committee is compatible. Before his appointment nobody in this country, including me, knew this fine man who gave so much time to this. Mr. Justice Saville of all people also stated he holds that view. The British must deal with that position themselves.
I compliment the Taoiseach for dealing with the Dublin and Monaghan bombings effectively and efficiently since he took office. Initially he set up the preliminary investigation under John Wilson, the former Tánaiste, who was followed in turn by Mr. Justice Hamilton and Mr. Justice Barron. He referred all of the reports to the Oireachtas joint committee, accepted the findings of those reports and acted on each of them. I am heartened that the Taoiseach stated he took from the previous debate in the House on the matter, and that he would again speak to the British Prime Minister on whether the British Government was prepared to establish a committee of inquiry into the matter in its jurisdiction. I await the outcome of the meeting on Monday. On that previous occasion I asked if the response was negative would the Taoiseach begin the process of preparing a case, if it was required, for the European Court of Human Rights over the summer, and get the legal work done and put the notice of intent on the record.
Supplementary to that, I spoke with the British Ambassador at a public event in Boston approximately ten days ago, and raised the issue of the Barron report and the co-operation of the British Government. He stated the British Government had co-operated, and that a letter on the public inquiry would be forthcoming shortly from the British Government. Has a letter been received from the British Government on this matter?
Even if the report on the further investigations into the Seamus Ludlow and Dundalk bombings cases is referred to the joint committee, it is unlikely that we will be able to proceed with it in the same form as we have done with the other two reports whereby we had a series of oral hearings, and brought in witnesses to allow them to tell the story. Perhaps it would be best if all reports were presented to the joint committee so that we can deal with them in the Autumn.
I accept what Deputy Costello stated on the last point. The Seamus Ludlow case is different to the 1975 Dundalk bombings and some of the other cases but during the summer I will endeavour to get everything to the committee. I accept the Seamus Ludlow report is not the same as earlier ones, the issue being that it must be redacted for legal reasons before we can move on it.
I have seen reports and heard about the letter and I assume it will come with the report next Monday. We will wait and see. I remain optimistic the British Government will change its mind, but if it is clear that is not the case I will follow through and move on it before the summer. I do not know how long it will take to get the Attorney General's advice or what the process is, but I will begin it.
Perhaps the Taoiseach has answered this but I cannot recall hearing it. Earlier this month the Taoiseach stated the SeamusLudlow report was with the Government and it was being checked for legal reasons. It has been with the Government since October 2004. Will the Taoiseach indicate why it is taking so long to come out of Cabinet? Is this a normal delay? When does the Taoiseach expect it? Will the Taoiseach accept it is important to have some groundwork done, notwithstanding his optimism on the British Government's response to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings? Is it not wise to speak to the Attorney General before the meeting to have some preliminary indications? Has any preliminary preparation been done with a view to taking a case or does he hope eternally the British Government will simply change its mind?
As I understand it, Mr. Justice Barron's report, unlike many other cases which had suspicion, doubts and fears, names the individuals involved in the assassination of Seamus Ludlow, and naming someone raises complex legal and security issues, which are being worked on. One of these is whether naming someone can be allowed. I am not competent to answer that question, but that is the dilemma.
I do not want to answer the question on the British Government before going through the process. We need its answer before we move forward. I do not want to pre-empt what it will do.
Hope springs eternal.