Garda Reserve Force.

Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 9 March 2006

Thursday, 9 March 2006

Questions (1, 2)

Jim O'Keeffe

Question:

1 Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if members of the Garda reserve force will be entitled to effect arrest under the Public Order Acts and other legislation that requires a Garda to form an opinion as to wrongdoing; the training that will be put in place for this purpose; the consultations he has had with the Garda representative bodies on this and other issues of concern to them; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9819/06]

Joe Costello

Question:

2 Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the progress that has been made in recruiting a volunteer Garda reserve force; and if the Garda representative bodies have been consulted on the proposal. [9984/06]

Oral answers (36 contributions)

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.

Under section 15 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, which provides for the establishment of a Garda reserve, the powers and duties of reserve members may be determined by the Garda Commissioner. The Garda Commissioner, in a comprehensive submission to me on the Garda reserve, has proposed that the powers of reserve members will be confined to the enforcement of certain aspects of the following Acts: under the Road Traffic Acts — demanding driving licences and insurance details, enforcing the wearing of seat belts etc; under the Public Order Act — dealing with the offences of intoxication, threatening behaviour, disorderly conduct and failure to comply with the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána; and under the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act — dealing with the offences of theft and burglary. Reserve members would also be given the power of arrest under the Criminal Law Act 1997, which provides powers of arrest for both members of the Garda Síochána and civilians.

The Commissioner's proposals make clear that reserve members will receive more than 120 hours initial training, which is up to the best international standard, including training on the exercise by reserve members of their powers, which are limited; they will be vetted to the same extent as full-time gardaí as regards security and character — there is no danger of infiltration by subversives or criminals of the reserve force or the force in general; they will have the same educational standards as recruits to the full-time force; they will only patrol in the presence and under the supervision of full-time members; they will only serve in uniform and will not drive official vehicles or carry firearms; they will be subject to a full disciplinary code; and they will not be deployed to carry out duties in their own immediate neighbourhoods.

I have said that I am extremely impressed with the comprehensive nature of the proposals for the Garda Síochána reserve made to me by the Garda Commissioner. The proposals envisage a thoroughly trained reserve with carefully selected powers and duties, working under the supervision of members of the Garda Síochána. I have asked each of the Garda representative associations to meet me to discuss the proposals before I proceed to draw up the necessary regulations for Government approval. I am glad to say the associations have agreed to this and the meetings are scheduled to take place over the next two weeks. I have also said that I will present the regulations in draft form to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights for consideration.

The Garda reserve will be a valuable additional support for the Garda Síochána. It will enhance the force's capacity to respond to emerging policing challenges and will reinforce its links with local communities. At the same time, the strength of the force is being massively increased from 12,000 to 14,000 members and the Garda budget is also at an all time high. This year's allocation of €1.29 billion represents an increase of 13% on the allocation for 2005. It includes provision of over €83.5 million for overtime, an increase of €23 million on last year's allocation, which will yield over 2.7 million hours of Garda overtime for frontline policing throughout the State. Millions of euro are being spent on upgrading Garda stations throughout the country and the roll out of a new state-of-the-art Garda digital radio system will commence this year.

This huge increase in the strength and resources of the Garda Síochána, supplemented by the additional resource of a well trained reserve with carefully selected powers and duties, will significantly increase the capacity of the Garda Síochána to combat crime and disorder, and provide the public with the security and safety it rightly demands.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I wish to make it clear that it has been Fine Gael policy for a long time to establish a Garda reserve as support and back-up for the Garda Síochána, but my concern is that the ham-fisted approach of the Minister in the introduction of a Garda reserve may have damaged the successful implementation of the scheme. He has totally failed to engage the principal stakeholders — that is, those on the frontline, the members of the Garda Síochána — in the development of the proposals.

I met the presidents, vice presidents and general secretaries of both the main organisations, the Garda Representative Association and Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors early last week and made it clear to them that I was in favour of the idea but that I wanted to know their concerns. Their main concern, to which the Minister must respond, was the lack of prior consultation. They were very aggrieved that there had been no consultation whatsoever with them on the development of these proposals, what would be successfully operational and what would be the main obstacles. After all, they are on the frontline and they believed they should have had an input.

They also felt there was a serious breach of trust on the part of the Minister in that they understood from discussions with him at the time of the introduction of the Bill that this was purely an enabling measure and that it would not be introduced in the lifetime of this Government or the next one, at least while Deputy McDowell was Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. They were absolutely clear on that and felt betrayed by what had happened in the meantime.

The third issue they raised was the powers of any such force and, as the Minister knows, I am in agreement with them in this regard. They were very concerned that while on duty, members of such a force would have full powers of arrest, some of which the Minister detailed. I have major concerns that a volunteer reserve force would have powers beyond the powers of arrest available to any citizen. My approach would be that they would operate totally under the supervision and direction of the Garda Síochána.

Other areas, such as vetting, discipline etc. can be discussed but these are three principal issues arising from those meetings. What is the Minister's reaction to my comments and, in particular, to those three major issues which arose in my discussions with the representatives of the GRA and the AGSI?

Mr. McDowell

I welcome the acknowledgement by Deputy O'Keeffe that his party has solidly and fully supported the establishment of a Garda reserve and that it promised it to the electorate on a number of occasions. I note he has not, in any way, resiled from that.

On the question of consultation, as the Deputy well knows, the Bill was crafted on the supposition that the initiative and proposals for a reserve would come from the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána and that it would not be a question of the Minister deciding on a reserve and starting to consult the Garda associations. That is written into law. The strange thing is that I began to detect opposition to the process of internal consultation in which the Commissioner engaged before he made any proposals to me about the nature and functions of a reserve. I read in the newspapers about two days' training etc. at a time when I had received nothing from the Garda Síochána on the same subject. From the moment I received the Commissioner's proposals, I indicated that I would maintain an open door policy with the Garda Síochána. I pre-empted no one in this respect. I re-emphasise to the Deputy that I will talk to anybody at any time on this subject.

The second issue the Deputy raised was that when the heads of the original Garda Síochána Bill were published, I had a meeting with members of the GRA and AGSI and they had considerable problems with a number of the provisions in the Bill. For instance, at that time they indicated they would advise their members not to have anything to do with the Garda Ombudsman Commission's inquiries and that they envisaged members of the Garda Síochána would not conduct inquiries at the behest of that commission.

They had other very strong objections to, for instance, the obligation to fully account for the manner in which they carried out their duties. They expressed very strong constitutional reasons why they thought what was being proposed in the heads of the Bill was incorrect. In the course of that conversation I said to them that I did not envisage introducing the Garda reserve in the course of the lifetime of this Government. The reason I did so was because on the publication of the Garda Bill there was no indication at that time of the Government's agreement to expand the force to 14,000 because of the embargo that was in place. I had made a solemn commitment in public that I would never use the reserve as a substitute for proper recruitment and staffing for An Garda Síochána. I said that to them at the time and they know that. If they have a careful minute of what was said, I told them that was the reason, that I was not in a position at that time to deliver the extra strength to An Garda Síochána because of the freeze on Government recruitment and, therefore, at that stage I did not envisage being in a position during the lifetime of the Government to bring forward the proposals for a reserve.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Why did the Minister not hold back then?

Mr. McDowell

Deputy O'Keeffe is aware that he urged me in this House to scrap the delay mechanism on their introduction because the legislation provided for a one year delay. He said in this House that he wanted it done now. He also said in the House that he wanted 5,000 reservists.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Four thousand. I gave no commitment.

Mr. McDowell

No, but——

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I want the reserve.

Mr. McDowell

I indicated in response to Opposition requests that I should expedite the introduction of the reserve force——

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Why did the Minister not go back to the two bodies?

Mr. McDowell

The third point is in regard to power.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Carey)

Deputy Costello wishes to ask a supplementary question.

Mr. McDowell

I want to make this point in regard to power. I am in the process of consultation. The Commissioner has made proposals to me. Like the Deputy I will be very careful to ensure the reserve's powers are commensurate with its training and capacity. I will not budge from that because I, just as much as everybody else in this House, am committed to the success of a reserve. I hope the Deputy is not thinking of back-pedalling from it on the basis of its powers because it is for us in this House to decide. I will be putting the regulations for the reserve before this House. It is for us in this House to decide those issues but it is not a good reason for not going ahead with the force in principle.

Mr. Costello

The Bill that went through the Dáil contained one section dealing with the volunteer reserve force consisting of 15 or 16 lines. It was very sparse in detail. On various Stages I queried the lack of detail on protections, safeguards and training and asked for some specific details but very few specifics were forthcoming. This is part of the problem when one is introducing something as major as another police force. The Minister has referred to building up the reserve force to 4,000 members. This will have major repercussions. The reassurances that were needed at the time were not forthcoming and have not been given since, even though the Minister has gone down the road some distance towards opening the debate, having consultation and so on. The fear of the Garda Representative Association and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors arises from the Minister's past record in regard to delivery of services to the Garda.

Acting Chairman

Will Deputy Costello formulate a question?

Mr. Costello

If it will take over six years to get 2,000 full-time trained gardaí in place but 900 reserve gardaí will be in place by September of this year it is no wonder the Garda Síochána considers this a yellow pack reserve force. Gardaí have complained they have only one pair of summer trousers, one pair of winter trousers, and that they have to provide their own torch batteries, use their own mobiles and only have analogue telecommunications. They are totally under-resourced but the Minister is ploughing ahead with this force.

Why should they not expect the worst in this respect considering that no prior consultation has taken place with the force? Consultation is only now about to commence. The Garda has organised a series of meetings around the country. Senator Maurice Hayes has given his implementation report on the Garda Síochána Act 2005, which does not include any reference to the implementation of the Garda reserve. Could we not provide the 2,000 extra gardaí to give reassurance to the Garda that it will not be babysitting an inadequately trained reserve force that is imposed on it and that the major components of the Garda Síochána Bill will be up and running? In the meantime we can have a process of consultation with the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, and the pilot scheme can be put in place so we can all see where we are going on this important issue. I agree with the Minister that we have all supported this in principle but we need to put the nuts and bolts of it together properly.

Acting Chairman

The Minister should be brief. We are well over time on this question.

Mr. McDowell

I favour a consensus approach. That is what I am doing. My door is open. I am bringing the regulations to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. It is open to the members of that committee to bring in the representative associations and to discuss any principled difficulties they may have with them. I met with the AGSI and told it that until I had a proposal from the Commissioner I could not discuss with it rumours that I had read in newspapers.

I ask every Member of this House to look at today's Irish Examiner where there is an excellent article setting out some of the realities of a reserve force and how it operates in a neighbouring jurisdiction. It refers to the attitude of full-time police officers in that jurisdiction and their federation to such a reserve force. Anybody who reads the article by Paul Kelly in today’s Irish Examiner will come away with a strong conviction that it is a good idea.

In addition to the process of consultation we had in the course of the debate where I indicated the regulatory framework was business for another day, members of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights went to the United Kingdom and saw at first hand the special constabulary that operates there and came back with an entirely favourable view of all of that. I could not discuss proposals I had not received. As soon as I did receive them I invited the associations to discuss them with me. They have used intemperate language describing the Commissioner's proposal as "crazy and dangerous". I reject that language out of hand. Deputy Costello suggested the Garda had used the term yellow pack but in fairness to the associations the only time this term has been used is in this House, not by the Garda. I do not propose to get into a confrontational mode.

Mr. Costello

They used another term — hobby bobbies.

Acting Chairman

We are six minutes over time on this question alone.

Mr. McDowell

I assure the House that my door is always open. I am behaving in a conciliatory way. I want everybody, including Members, to have confidence in the fact that I will fully accommodate any reasonable points people wish to make in regard to this matter.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I am stunned by the cavalier admission from the Minister that, in fact, he was guilty of a breach of trust here and that he did say to the members as they have claimed that he did not envisage the introduction of the force.

Acting Chairman

Has the Deputy a question?

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Why did the Minister not go back and talk to them and explain at an early stage that the situation had changed as far as he was concerned and give them an outline of his then thinking rather than present them with what they see now as a fait accompli?

Mr. Costello

Before the Minister replies, I reiterate——

Mr. McDowell

I have not breached trust with anybody. As a Minister, my trust is to implement the law as laid down by this House, as backed by all the Members of this House. It is true that when the recruitment of 2,000 extra gardaí was held back by the public service embargo I made it clear to the associations that I would not use the reserve force as a substitute for the expansion of An Garda Síochána and I am sticking to that proposition.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It was meant to happen during the lifetime of this Government.

Mr. McDowell

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe urged me to get on with the job and remove the delays. He is now resiling from that position.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I object to that, I am not resiling. The Minister blames everyone else. He blames me for his own breach of trust.

Mr. Costello

Is the Minister now prepared, considering all the controversy, to consult and put a pilot programme in place instead of rushing this?

Mr. McDowell

The Garda Commissioner's proposal is for a force of 4,000 with initial pilot projects in a number of areas. In 2006, 900 members will be recruited for allocation on a pilot basis to a number of areas. There was no question of there not being a pilot approach. That is why there was provision in the Estimates of €1.28 million.

Mr. Costello

It has taken six years to recruit 2,000 extra gardaí.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

If the Minister had the good grace to apologise to the two associations for the breach of trust, the environment would be much more conducive for the introduction of the scheme.

Mr. McDowell

I do not need to apologise to the associations. My door has been open. I have not used intemperate language and I will not do so.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The Minister gave an undertaking to consult on this.

Mr. McDowell

I did not give an undertaking to anyone.