Government-Church Dialogue.

Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 15 November 2006

Wednesday, 15 November 2006

Questions (6, 7, 8, 9, 10)

Pat Rabbitte

Question:

6 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach the position regarding the dialogue between the Government, churches and faith communities which he referred to in replies to parliamentary questions on 14 December 2004 and 13 December 2005; the structure of the process; the number of meetings held to date; the arrangements for future meetings; if his attention has been drawn to expressions of disappointment from the main churches regarding the lack of progress on the issue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28371/06]

Enda Kenny

Question:

7 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach the position regarding the process of dialogue between the Government, churches and faith communities; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30789/06]

Trevor Sargent

Question:

8 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach the progress made in relation to structured dialogue between the Government and faith communities and churches; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34123/06]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Question:

9 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the process of dialogue between the Government and representatives of religions and faiths; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34474/06]

Joe Higgins

Question:

10 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the progress made to date in relation to structured dialogue between the Government, the churches and faith communities. [35927/06]

Oral answers (13 contributions)

The Taoiseach

I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 to 10, inclusive, together.

I proposed that the Government should engage directly with faith based communities and bodies on the development of an institutionalised dialogue. This initiative reflects the significant role of the churches and an increasingly diverse range of faith communities, the Government's commitment to wide-ranging consultation on public policy including through social partnership and the provision for dialogue with the churches and other non-confessional bodies in the draft constitutional treaty for the EU under articles 1-52.

Following the initial written consultations between officials in my Department and the prospective partners in this dialogue, a series of meetings at official level commenced some time ago with a view to formally inaugurating the process. These meetings sought to identify the scope and structure of the dialogue as an enduring channel of communication. The discussions have been very encouraging and it is hoped to conclude this final round of consultation in the coming weeks. I hope all the partners in this process will be ready to engage in an inaugural meeting and commence a series of bilateral meetings with Ministers over the coming months.

With regard to structure, I envisage the dialogue process will include an annual meeting and reception with all participants in the dialogue in attendance, an annual bilateral meeting with each representative body at which the State side would be led by members of the Government and include senior officials from appropriate Departments, and an ongoing channel of communication at official level.

The response to this initiative from the outset has been very positive. It has been generally welcomed as an appropriate and timely response to complement the process of change in Ireland. The long established arrangements for delivery of services in the State, heavily reliant on and closely engaged with the churches, are in need of review. I hope this process will give the participants and the wider community an opportunity to reflect on the continuing changes in the social patterns of life, including those arising from immigration.

I understood the reported remarks from the church leaders to reflect their enthusiastic support and welcome for the dialogue, as previously conveyed directly. I share their commitment to move forward with the process as quickly as it can be arranged. Deputies will appreciate that for the enduring stability of this structured dialogue, it is best that the process be well prepared through the contacts which have taken place, so it can be open, inclusive and transparent.

Mr. Rabbitte

We spoke of procedures earlier. I expected this question to be answered yesterday but I read the answer on the front page of The Irish Times this morning. I did not think the Taoiseach or his two doughty Ministers of State would engage in that kind of practice. While I thought that to be exclusively in the realm of the new Tánaiste, apparently it is not.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The disease is spreading.

Mr. Rabbitte

As I have read the answer already in The Irish Times I am uncertain whether I have anything additional to extract. This commitment was made in the autumn of 2004 and subsequently, Members have asked the Taoiseach about it a number of times. My understanding is that notwithstanding the front page story in The Irish Times, nothing has happened. For example, Dr. Diarmuid Martin, Archbishop of Dublin, expressed some disappointment at the General Humbert Summer School that this commitment had not been followed through.

The Taoiseach made reference to bilateral meetings and so on. He and the former Tánaiste had a bilateral meeting with the leaders of the Church of Ireland concerning the status of Tallaght hospital in respect of matters relating to the decision to locate the new national children's hospital on the site of the Mater Hospital. Concerns were expressed directly to the Taoiseach and the then Tánaiste about the ethos and values enshrined in the charter of Tallaght hospital. I believe the meeting took place on 29 June and the senior churchmen present expressed concern to the Taoiseach regarding the dilution of the charter and a downgrading of the hospital itself. Can the Taoiseach say anything to reassure the Church of Ireland in this regard?

The Taoiseach

On the first question, this process came from the European constitution. When the European constitution did not go ahead, we decided to proceed anyway. It was not as though nothing happened through 2005, as a process had to be structured. This was a serious effort. We wrote to all the churches and other religious bodies, as well as the humanists. There was a long period of engagement as they were obliged to go through their own consultative bodies and processes. This was a long and drawn out process. I understand they were obliged to go to their councils and conferences to ascertain whether they would engage in the process. This happened.

The second part consisted of engaging with officials as to how the bodies wanted to structure the issues. I refer to the meetings, agendas and the kind of issues to be covered in this respect and this process is not quite complete. There are also some issues regarding who represents who in these structures and this has taken some time. The process includes the Most Reverend Dr. Robin Eames, Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of all Ireland, as well as the Most Reverend John Neill, Archbishop of Dublin. It also includes the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Baptist, Lutheran and Moravian churches, the Religious Society of Friends, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Salvation Army, the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox and Romanian Orthodox churches, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Jewish Representative Council of Ireland, the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland, the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the Republic of Ireland, the Irish Council of Churches, and the chairperson of the Humanist Association of Ireland. It has taken considerable time to structure it as per the European constitution and get agreement. The officials have worked hard to so do.

This work is almost complete and I understand a possible structure has been worked out. I share Archbishop Martin's view that we could get on with it.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach might find it harder than dealing with the parties in Northern Ireland.

The Taoiseach

The Constitution gave some of the churches a structured position with the State. However, most of them do not have such a position. The two officials who have worked hard on this matter have informed me they believe they can get it going next year.

I had a number of meetings with the Most Reverend John Neill, Archbishop of Dublin, as well as correspondence with various people from the Church of Ireland. At direct meetings with Archbishop Neill, concerns were expressed to me regarding any dilution or diminution of the status of the charter that was worked out many years ago. We emphasised to Archbishops Neill and Eames that this is not the case. I gave them a written commitment to this effect. There is no intention on the State's part to move away from the charter, from its commitments to the charter or from the protection of the issues of faith for the Church of Ireland.

As for Tallaght hospital, we have assured them that while the decision has been made regarding Temple Street Children's University Hospital, there will be no downgrading of the Tallaght complex. There have been numerous meetings at official level since then. While I have not kept completely up to date with them, they asked for some particular issues to be addressed and I understand that they have been or are being addressed.

Mr. Kenny

As Deputy Rabbitte noted, the Taoiseach has given a reply that was published this morning. The Taoiseach stated the structure will allow for a plenary meeting between representatives of the churches and the faith communities every year — I assume this would be among themselves — while separate bilateral meetings between the Government and the different faiths will be held on an ongoing basis. Can the Taoiseach provide any details in this regard? Representatives of the aforementioned churches would find it most informative to meet members of the Cabinet, particularly as they themselves follow the words of the Gospel and their religious beliefs in respect of keeping one's word and so on. Representatives of the aforementioned Lutheran church would be extremely interested to meet the Ministers of State and some of the Ministers.

Although this is a serious business, members of the Cabinet and the churches are busy people. How does the Taoiseach envisage the practicalities of such meetings? It would not be desirable for people to form a perception that a particular church met the Taoiseach, Tánaiste or Ministers and that consequently, things emerged. The former Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, stated that she wanted the special relationship between State and church broken up.

I do not know whether the Taoiseach considered a suggestion I made a couple of years ago. I suggested that under the office of the President, a constitutional liaison officer with the churches could be appointed. As such an officer would be completely objective and independent, Cabinet members would not be perceived to be under any pressure from a particular church or its members. The officer could report regularly to the Cabinet as to the views, perceptions, concerns and anxieties of any church or group.

In a small country such as Ireland, the Taoiseach and other Ministers meet heads of churches and other religious leaders regularly on formal and social occasions and so on. I am uncertain whether the Taoiseach considers this suggestion to have any validity. It might be a practical and streamlined method of getting messages to the church leaders from the Government and vice versa without any perception of pressure, interference or favouritism. I do not suggest this would apply. Did the Taoiseach give the suggestion any consideration?

The Taoiseach

The article in today's edition of The Irish Times merely stated that officials were continuing their contacts with the churches. This is well known because quite a number of articles in this regard appeared in the religious magazines. The remainder of the article was taken up with the journalist’s conversations with representatives of churches. Consequently, my reply did not appear in the newspaper.

This area is complex both in Ireland and in other countries. More than 150 nationalities now live in Ireland and while I do not know the current tally, more than 30 churches were present in Ireland when we engaged in consultations regarding the European constitution. A number of these churches wish to set up schools and extend their church-related services in different ways. In some cases, the children of members of these churches attend integrated schools. They wish to engage with the State in respect of a range of issues.

The reason this has taken so long is because we needed to agree to introduce a process whereby meetings would be held once a year with everybody where there would be total integration and that, in turn, the churches mentioned by me would meet with the relevant Minister and officials. Officials from the Department of the Taoiseach would try to co-ordinate this process but they would not meet representatives from the churches other than when necessary. This process will not cut across some of the long-established arrangements that been in place with the churches for years, chiefly for health and education issues. Delegations from the main churches have come in together to discuss European legislation and equality issues for a number of years. This does not create any great conflict. The only change relates to a tradition dating back to the foundation of the State whereby some church leaders pay a Christmas visit but this is purely a courtesy call. As far as meetings are concerned, they tend to operate together.

The process was in the constitution because it is major issue in other countries and will become a major issue for us, namely, the range of faiths and non-faith groups represented in this country at full level. It is important that these people feel they have a voice in Government and are able to put forward their cases. I recently met imams representing both the Sunni and Shia branches of Islam in Ireland. The imams of this country are working together at a time when such co-operation is not taking place in other countries. They will examine the introduction of schools in this country which will represent all of their community. These issues are difficult enough to address. From my discussions with them, I am also very conscious that they read Dáil debates on every issue that affects them very assiduously. We are very anxious to help them in respect of these issues, bring about some resolution in respect of them and assist them in obtaining land because the community is growing very rapidly. There are 35,000 or so Muslims in the country.

These are very important issues and require delicate handling. The President can play a role but because of the number and range of faiths, the process must be closer to Government. For 60 or 70 years, these issues would probably have affected only four or five churches but will now affect many more. The process will probably have to take place in Government Buildings but will link in with others. It will not involve many people but these people are seeking direct engagement with the Government and Ministers.

Mr. Sargent

Is it correct that the various churches and faith communities did not hear from the Government for an entire year, from the announcement in July 2005 onwards? This is the impression I have received. Will the Taoiseach address this because it does not indicate that the Government has ears — whatever about the churches having a voice?

Will the churches be consulted over the formulation of wording for a referendum on children's rights, about which the Taoiseach has spoken? Will this be an indication of some practical interaction?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Regarding the education issue, the Taoiseach has indicated where this matter has been addressed in respect of some of the newer religions and faith groups in our communities. Has the issue of education and the control of schools been addressed with the larger denominations, specifically, representatives of the Catholic faith? This is in light of the fact that the greatest number of schools within our education system are under its direct aegis and control. Difficulties arise in new developments where people are left without school places for their children and must deal with two bureaucracies — church and State — in order to move matters forward.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin should confine himself to the questions.

The Taoiseach

It is incorrect to say that nothing has happened. There have been extensive negotiations with the churches over the past two years. They have been attempting to produce a model into which everyone fits. One cannot have dialogue based on the contents of the draft constitution unless everyone is involved.

Education issues are everyday issues concerning the churches' schools and communities and would be discussed between the various churches and the Department of Education and Science and would not be part of this process. The control of schools is an ongoing issue and is a problem for the majority churches, which have put it on the agenda because they do not have the personnel to undertake the work they did in the past. In many cases, they are examining changes and are engaged with the Minister of Education and Science on this matter.