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Pension Provisions.

Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 2 April 2008

Wednesday, 2 April 2008

Questions (9, 10, 11, 12, 13)

Thomas P. Broughan

Question:

81 Deputy Thomas P. Broughan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the arrangements that he will put in place to ensure that exported State pensions are stopped once the pensioner is deceased; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12182/08]

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Olivia Mitchell

Question:

110 Deputy Olivia Mitchell asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the position regarding the life certification project on the 14% of recipients of contributory State pensions who reside abroad; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12118/08]

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Paul Connaughton

Question:

141 Deputy Paul Connaughton asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if he will confirm if his Department is alerted when a recipient of a contributory pension outside of Ireland dies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12117/08]

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Paul Connaughton

Question:

147 Deputy Paul Connaughton asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the number of people in receipt of the contributory pension living outside the State; the breakdown of same according to country; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12116/08]

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Jimmy Deenihan

Question:

149 Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the basis on which his Department is checking the records of thousands of Irish pensioners living abroad following concerns that welfare pensions are being received by people who have died; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12115/08]

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Oral answers (11 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 81, 110, 141, 147 and 149 together.

There are currently 246,000 customers in receipt of a contributory State pension. Of these, some 37,000 — 15% — reside outside the State in some 63 countries. The majority of these are resident in the United Kingdom, Australia, the United States of America, Canada, Germany and Spain. A breakdown of the number of recipients can be provided to the Deputies if necessary.

In the Department's experience, the death of a contributory State pension recipient residing abroad is generally notified to the pension section without delay, either by a spouse, a surviving relative or a financial institution. Notifications of customer deaths are received on a daily basis through the customer contact centre, in writing and via e-mail. Pension payments are stopped on receipt of these notifications and appropriate action initiated.

The Department has put arrangements in place with a number of foreign institutions to ensure that we are notified when a recipient of a contributory State pension resident outside the State dies. In this regard, the Department works in close co-operation with the Department of Social Development in Northern Ireland and the Department of Work and Pensions in the United Kingdom and arrangements are underpinned by a memorandum of understanding between these organisations. A control arrangement is also in place with the Australian Centrelink authorities whereby the Department receives a monthly electronic file of deaths where an Irish State pension is in payment. The Department is a member of a six nations' group, involving Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States of America, which addresses and agrees common approaches on control issues and the sharing of information.

In addition, at the start of each year, a mail shot issues to all contributory State pension customers resident abroad notifying them of their new pension rate and reminding them to let the Department know of any changes to their circumstances that would affect their entitlements. Any letters returned undelivered receive urgent attention. This process acts as an additional control measure.

As part of the Department's ongoing control strategy, periodic reviews are undertaken in order to determine customers' continuing eligibility for pensions. In this regard, the Department has initiated a customer certification process for contributory State pension customers resident in Ireland and abroad. Letters issue to customers for completion and return of a certificate within a specified time. Follow-up action is taken where no reply is received from the customer or where the letter is returned undelivered.

To date, some 1,000 letters have issued to contributory State pension customers. Of these, 300 were issued to pension recipients resident outside the State. Some 81% of these customers have responded and replies are still being processed. It is planned to issue a further 7,000 letters to contributory State pension customers resident abroad by the end of 2008.

I am committed to ensuring that social welfare payments are available to those who are entitled to them. I am satisfied that measures are in place to ensure that payments to customers resident outside the State are stopped when they are deceased. The Department's control programme is carefully monitored and the various measures are continuously refined to ensure that they remain effective.

When this issue hit the headlines last month it was reported that the Department was of the view that some 8,000 non-resident pensioners were deceased and the pension payment was continuing in those cases. Is that true? Is that the view in the Department?

It is utterly untrue.

That has clarified the matter.

The Minister stated that a letter goes out at the start of the year notifying people about pension increases and he stated that there are 37,000 non-resident Irish pensioners. What checks are in place to pick up on persons who have died since the previous year? The Minister spoke about the system in Australia where there is an official notification procedure. What about all the others, particularly pensioners in the UK? What checks does the Department carry out to ensure that those people are still alive?

If the Department is sending such letters as a type of check, sending out 300 to a cohort of 37,000 is really only scratching the surface. I want the Minister to give some assurance to taxpayers that he is taking a vigorous approach to this and putting in place a system which will pick up on those fraudulent payments. He has not done that to date and perhaps he could take this opportunity to reassure us that he is taking the issue seriously.

I am happy to do so. First, it was never the case that either I or any official in my Department believed the story presented in certain elements of the media regarding 8,000 persons. These are simply control mechanisms that are implemented consistently across a range of schemes.

Second, we have no evidence whatsoever, or reason to believe, that the 37,000 Irish citizens who live abroad and who are entitled to a contributory Irish pension on the basis of work they have done in this country are not entitled to those payments.

Third, we have no reason to believe that persons in that cohort have died and are still getting payments. We have no evidence to suggest that this is the case, but it is part and parcel of the normal control mechanisms, which have been going on for years within the Department, in these areas.

I indicated that one of the biggest cohorts is in the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. There is a strong working relationship between the pensions Departments there and here and they are in constant contact. The protocols in place involve a continuous flow of information on deaths that take place.

In cases where a person dies, there may be some death benefits available and people tend to notify the Government immediately that a person has died. Banks also do so and probate and wills processes also bring out that information. It is rare for somebody to make an attempt, on behalf of a deceased person who was in receipt of a contributory pension, to defraud the State on the basis of the person's pension rights. We do not have evidence that this is the case.

Did anything trigger this review of the 8,000 persons, or was it merely something that was waiting to be done and it happened to be on a particular date? In fairness, I am aware from my previous occupation that the Department can be thorough when somebody dies in terms of examining the person's estate. It is obviously more difficult where somebody is resident abroad.

Does the Department intend to issue the swipe cards it is progressing to persons living outside the State to collect their pensions or will such cards work abroad? Regardless of whether the Department intends to do that or makes a decision not to do so for persons resident outside the State, will this review be completed before then? If the Department will be making further contact, giving persons a swipe card would be on a par with giving them another pension book to enable them get their pensions. That issue should be resolved first.

On the first point, our approach was not exceptional. It was part of the normal process of reviews and control mechanisms constantly being implemented by the Department with regard to various schemes. It was presented by some elements in the media as if it was something new and special and as if it had been triggered by something specific, but that is not the case. The Department does this consistently and constantly across a range of measures. It just happened that on this occasion we were considering this aspect of it. It was not done on the basis of any belief that there was large-scale fraud taking place, but as part of our control mechanisms. Where there is significant taxpayers' money involved, we want to be able to verify the spending, including from our own perspective.

The swipe cards are being rolled out currently. I do not have any details with regard to overseas recipients because not all recipients in Ireland are yet on the swipe card system, but we will achieve that down the road. It is a system that could work. The basis of certification and verification is strong and detailed. Given that swipe cards are used to access funds from banks, the bank controls within the card for its use are specific and difficult to misuse. Therefore, the use of swipe cards would enhance our security systems, particularly for those who are abroad.

The irony of my position this afternoon is that Deputies constantly make representations to me with regard to how hard the Department is on individuals, how it makes black and white decisions and how it is not generous or flexible when it comes to accepting people on schemes. The complaint is that the Department takes a very thorough view. The complaint I receive most often from colleagues is that the Department is very strict. It is interesting, therefore, that the questions being asked today suggest the Department is not strict enough. I believe the Department is vigilant and that it acts in the best interest of all taxpayers and protects the resources being paid out.

I do not think we are being unduly strict in expecting the Minister to have a system in place to pick up on deceased pensioners so that he can arrange for their payments to be stopped. The Minister has not said anything today to reassure me that he has a robust system in place. When he writes to pensioners every year to tell them about the increases in pensions, specifically the 37,000 non-resident pensioners, what does he ask them in terms of returning information to him? I presume they are asked to sign some document to say they are still alive. What kind of proof does he require in terms of a witness to that signature? Will the Minister clarify the details with regard to the form people are required to return? What percentage of non-resident pensioners have failed to make that return in recent years?

The information in question is not just to do with individual pensioners. There is a strong and direct relationship between the Department and many of the institutions in other countries, whether banks, social welfare departments, pensions systems or death registries. I provided some detail to the Deputy with regard to relationships with Northern Ireland and the Department for Work and Pensions in the United Kingdom and how the control mechanisms work in that regard and with regard to Australian institutions.

My question was more specific. What does the Minister ask from pensioners in terms of returning information on an annual basis? What information does he ask them to return to validate the fact that they are still alive?

We send out information, particularly when a new book is being issued and there is an increase in the pension, to individual recipients setting out their responsibilities with regard to notifications of any nature that would affect their payments. We must try to verify that the information we receive is real and we do that in conjunction with the Departments in other countries that have an interest in the matter.

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