Priority Questions
1Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Minister for Education and Skills the reason he refused to release information under a recent freedom of information request relating to advice received by him on his decision to cut 428 DEIS posts in Budget 2012; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10383/12]
View answer3Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Minister for Education and Skills in view of commitments in the EU 2020 National Reform Programme in terms of targeted pupil teacher ratios, if he will be reversing his decision to make changes to the staffing schedule for DEIS schools; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10385/12]
View answerI propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 3 together.
DEIS is one of the key measures to address the national target under the EU 2020 National Reform Programme. Among the key issues and needs addressed by DEIS are targeted reductions in pupil-teacher ratios. The reform of the teacher allocations process under budget 2012 includes no change to the mainstream staffing schedule for primary schools of a general average of 28 pupils to one teacher, including DEIS band 2 schools. A dedicated staffing schedule for DEIS band 1 schools will preserve the favourable ratios of 20:1 and 24:1 for these schools, while additional support is being provided for DEIS post-primary schools through an improved staffing schedule of 18.25:1.
The report on the net effect, in terms of posts, of budget measures on DEIS band 1 and band 2 urban primary schools that still had additional posts allocated under disadvantage schemes pre-dating DEIS was published earlier this week.
On foot of the analysis in the report, the Government has now agreed to my proposal to retain a total of 235 posts, on a concessionary basis, in DEIS band 1 and DEIS band 2 schools. As already announced, the withdrawal of 192 posts from primary schools outside DEIS bands 1 and 2 and from DEIS second level schools will proceed.
On the reallocation of posts under the general allocation model, GAM, I can now confirm that DEIS band 1 schools will be given an additional allocation of 0.2 of a post where the school has less than 200 pupils and 0.4 of a post where the school has 200 or more pupils. We will continue to ensure that DEIS schools in the most disadvantaged areas are prioritised for targeted support, including preferential pupil-teacher ratios over and above mainstream schools.
My Department replied to a recent freedom of information request on the withdrawal of certain posts under pre-DEIS schemes. This request was refused under sections 19 and 20 of the Freedom of Information Act as the records in question were the subject of ongoing consideration at ministerial and official level at the time of the request. This decision may be appealed under section 14(7) of the Act.
I thank the Minister for his reply. My party welcomes the partial reversal of the decision that was made in the budget to eliminate 428 DEIS posts. Some 193 will still be lost.
I am very disappointed that he stands over the decision to refuse to accede to our request under freedom of information. This was part of the budgetary process and documentation between the various Departments and within Departments has been released post budget, and Deputy Quinn's Department has released some information to my party about other matters.
The Minister stated here in this House and elsewhere that he made a mistake in regard to the DEIS decision and he stated clearly that he got it wrong. He made the strong point that when the full impact of the Government's decision was brought to his attention, he realised he had not acted on the full information and that the-----
A question, please.
-----full information been not been analysed. Surely we are entitled to see what information was available to the Minister and what information he had the opportunity to read before making that decision.
The Minister has been consistent over the years, whether in government or in opposition, in calling for a widening and a better use of the Freedom of Information Acts for the public administration. I am most disappointed that he and his Department refused to release this information to us.
I thank Deputy Smith for his question. I am quite happy to ensure the appeal proceeds. I was not consulted about the decision of the Department to deny him the information. It was an automatic decision because when the request came in, we were still discussing the changes. In fact, the changes were discussed right up until just before the Cabinet meeting. I am not sure when Deputy Smith's application under the Freedom of Information Acts was submitted, but I neither asked about nor intervened in it. All I can suggest is that he lodge his appeal in the normal way.
Everybody is delighted there has been some reversal of the cuts to DEIS schools. It seems it is a victory for people power. I wonder whether the Minister would agree that it is as a result of people protesting, and proving the efficacy of protesting, that there has been a reversal of these cuts which were targeted at the most vulnerable and disadvantaged schools.
While that is a victory and an improvement, is it really acceptable that the cost will still be borne by the education system and school children's quality of education in general, particularly given that the schools that would suffer disproportionately from the reduction in the capitation grant funding will be precisely the disadvantaged schools, and they will be hit in another way?
Of course, if one lives in a better-off area, if there are more well-off families who can afford bigger voluntary contributions, which they should not have to make in the first place as we should have a properly funded education system, at least there may be a little bit more of a buffer to make up the reductions in the grants.
I thank the Deputy.
Is it the reality that the Government will still hit the most disadvantaged students and schools in another way and this is only an indication of the need not to cut at education and at the children-----
I am obliged to call on the Minister to reply.
-----and the protest should lead the Government to think again on education cuts in general?
I would love to be in the position in which the Deputy thinks we all live, and in a world that does not exist as far as this country is concerned. The fact is 17% of the entire current account budget of this Government, and of previous Governments, goes on education. With the exception of social welfare, it is probably the biggest single expenditure item. Some 80% of that budget goes to salaries and related employment costs. Therefore, any adjustment that I must make comes within the 20% balance. Indirectly, by removing teaching posts, I can theoretically reduce the costs but, in fact, anybody who is holding down a teaching post and is permanent does not lose his or her job, and will be redeployed elsewhere within the system, and the savings are quite limited.
I regret that I must do what I must do. I do not like it. What I was doing, as Deputy Boyd Barrett might well be aware, was looking at DEIS band 1 and band 2 primary schools and those posts which were additional to the DEIS allocation, which had preceded the establishment of DEIS and which were known as legacy posts. On the basis of the full impact, and following the discussions with politicians and Deputies on the Government side, and listening to what people were saying, I have decided to make this change.
However, I stated on the day that I accepted I would have to review the position that any change that would take place would have to be financed from within the primary education budget within the Department, and that is what I have done.
I will take brief questions from Deputies Smith and Boyd Barrett.
Public representatives on all sides were able to point to the success of DEIS and the research and evidence was there to demonstrate the importance of continuing DEIS. I have still a worry when I am aware that 16 schools in rural areas are losing posts under the review that has taking place.
It also concerns me that the measurement of poverty in a rural context may not be as accurate as it is for urban areas. Persons in a rural area do not have access to a library and other facilities. At times in the more crowded urban area the poverty is more apparent. I have a concern that so many small rural schools are losing those particular posts.
Do I take it from the Minister that his Department will accede to my request to release the information available, and it would appear that very little research was done in advance of the budgetary decision?
Needless to say, I do not accept the necessity for education cuts. It is simply extraordinary that we will pay €3.1 billion out at the end of this month for an Anglo Irish Bank promissory note while the Government thinks it is okay to cut education.
I do not see, particularly in education, how the Government - I take the point that the Minister is put within certain limits - does not recognise that this is cutting off its nose to spite its face. If there is one area that should be critical, both in terms of its vulnerability because it is our children and its strategic importance in terms of our future capacity to develop economically and socially, it is education. If one cuts, as the Government is doing, at the quality of education for all the students, and there simply cannot be any doubt that such will be the result of these education cuts, then the effect at every single level for the future of our society will be negative.
It simply undermines any reason to believe we can find a path to recovery or a way out of this crisis if we are cutting precisely the areas which would bring us out of the crisis, namely, our young people and our education system.
Given many controversial things were said in and around the budget decision, I want to clarify the position. There was no reduction in DEIS band 1 and band 2 primary schools in the normal course of events. What was identified was that some DEIS schools had retained additional posts which had been allocated to them before DEIS was introduced in 2004, either under Breaking the Cycle or Giving Children An Even Break. It was those additional posts that were identified and, on balance and having looked at the likely impact, I reflected on this and decided to leave them there because of the scale of the deprivation in some of those schools. As a consequence of the change I have made, now two schools can be classified as DEIS band 1 with similar profiles in the community but one school will have more resources than the other because it happened to be allocated those resources in the past.
2Deputy Seán Crowe asked the Minister for Education and Skills if there is a mechanism in place to enable schools that have experienced demographic changes combined with unemployment and increased socio economic deprivation levels within the school’s catchment area to be designated a new DEIS school; if he will confirm the date when the review into DEIS schools is to be completed and published; if DEIS Band 2 schools are included in the review; and if schools experiencing greater challenges will be included in the process. [10518/12]
View answerWhile a key priority for me is to continue to prioritise and target resources at schools with the most concentrated levels of educational disadvantage, the current economic climate and the challenge to meet significant targets on reducing public expenditure limits opportunities and means there is no capacity to provide for additionality to the DEIS programme, including the selection of further schools.
The report on the net effect, in terms of posts, of budget measures on DEIS band 1 and band 2 urban primary schools that still had additional posts allocated under disadvantage schemes predating DEIS was published earlier this week. On foot of the analysis in this report, the Government has now agreed to my proposal to retain a total of 235 posts, on a concessionary basis, in DEIS band 1 and band 2 schools.
In regard to the reallocation of posts under the general allocation model, I can now confirm that DEIS band 1 schools will be given an additional allocation of 0.2 of a post where the school has less than 200 pupils and 0.4 of a post where the school has 200 or more pupils. My Department's social inclusion unit will now write to these and all DEIS band 1 schools separately in regard to their staffing allocations for the 2012-2013 school year.
The question may seem a little historical as I did not know when the report was to be published. We all know the reasons DEIS was introduced, namely, to try to target and break down some of the barriers for children through the introduction of certain measures. The point of my question, which follows on from the Minister's point on additional resources, is that I am aware of schools which, if given the opportunity today, would fit the criteria for DEIS. While they are disadvantaged schools, the system itself is doubly disadvantaging those schools and the children within them. The Minister will not want another review - God forbid - but is there any mechanism to look into this issue? I accept what he says in regard to resources but we are doubly disadvantaging these children, which is wrong.
DEIS was never about creating barriers or building walls, it was about pulling down walls and doing away with barriers. The Minister says some schools will have more resources than others. However, some schools are run alongside DEIS schools and fit all the criteria, including schools in my area, for example, in Inchicore and at St. Mary's in Tallaght, which has children from 26 countries as well as Traveller children, all affected by unemployment, social and economic change and so on. The system needs to adapt. What I ask is not unreasonable and the Minister should consider it.
The process of identifying schools for participation in DEIS in 2005 was managed by the Educational Research Centre, ERC, on behalf of the Department and supported by quality assurance work co-ordinated through the Department's regional offices and the inspectorate. The ERC's overall approach was guided by the definition of educational disadvantage as set out in the Education Act 1998, which states: "the impediments to education arising from social or economic disadvantage which prevent students from deriving appropriate benefit from education in schools." The Deputy is asking me, in effect, to look again at the whole categorisation of DEIS. I am prepared to give that consideration.
I welcome that. Things have moved on in regard to the economic situation of the country. While this might frighten the life out of some schools, it needs to be considered.
With regard to the review of DEIS, particularly in regard to Breaking the Cycle, the Minister originally talked in terms of a pupil-teacher ratio of 15:1 and then 18:1, whereas the Department's website refers to 20:1. While I may have taken it up wrong, has the ratio increased from 18:1 to 20:1? There is a great deal of confusion about this.
Some strange issues have come out of the review and there is a question of fairness. People talk in terms of a drop in the number on school rolls. This might be on the basis that the school is full to capacity. I know of some schools in that situation where the Department will not provide funding for an extension so they are being penalised because they cannot expand or take in more children. I am not sure if progress can be made by simply moving the pieces around the board.
I do not have an answer to the Deputy's specific question about the various pupil-teacher ratios on the website. I will have that clarified and will communicate directly with him.
The reality is that not all disadvantaged pupils are in DEIS schools and the majority are in non-DEIS schools. It has been expressed to me that in some cases parents would prefer not to have their child in a DEIS school, for a variety of reasons. I will clarify the point in regard to the website for the Deputy.
Question No. 3 answered with Question No. 1.
4Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Minister for Education and Skills the reason he based his decision to abolish the modern languages in primary schools initiative on one line in a 2008 NCCA report called the Modern Languages in the Primary School Curriculum: Feasibility and Futures, a line which was taken completely out of context; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10384/12]
View answerThe modern languages in primary schools initiative has been a pilot scheme involving approximately 550 schools that has operated since 1998. The decision to end the scheme took account of a 2008 report by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. The report identified serious issues with curricular overload at primary level.
The NCCA's advice recommended that, for the present, modern languages should not be part of the primary school curriculum as an additional and separate subject. The advice in regard to curriculum overload predated the wake-up call on literacy and numeracy triggered by the PISA results. I am taking that advice on board with particular regard to the demands on time in school that will result from a heightened focus on literacy and numeracy.
The primary curriculum is currently being reviewed by the NCCA in the context of the national literacy and numeracy strategy. The €2.5 million in savings from this measure will go towards the cost of implementing the new national literacy and numeracy strategy. The 17% of primary schools at present in the initiative, which have had even more time demands than others in a crowded curricular space, should as a result be better placed to deliver under the literacy and numeracy strategy.
Given the priority of literacy and numeracy, I have acted on the 2008 advice about overload and could not justify either the continuation of the initiative in the existing schools or its expansion to all schools, even if funding was not an issue.
I thank the Minister for his reply. I note he said this initiative "has been" a pilot initiative. It is not a pilot programme because it became an initiative and has long lost its pilot status. The programme was exceptionally successful. Moreover, it had a small budget and my understanding is that it was delivered under-budget in successive years.
We submitted a freedom of information request on the matter. The only response we received was a copy of the NCCA report of 2008, a copy of the new national literacy and numeracy strategy and a Department official's summary of the 2008 NCCA report. We have all praised the Minister's admirable initiative in regard to the literacy and numeracy strategy. However, he seems to be sacrificing the modern languages programme in order to implement that strategy. That defies logic. Not only does the modern languages programme cost very little but one of the benefits in developing children's language skills is an associated improvement in literacy levels. The Department is refusing to make the link between the two.
The Deputy is correct that the modern languages initiative started life as a pilot scheme. However, there was never a recommendation or decision by my predecessors to roll it out across the entire network of 3,200 primary schools. Only 17% of that total benefited from the scheme. As an Opposition Deputy I was appalled at the implications of the PISA findings in terms of literacy and numeracy standards among students. Despite considerable increases in resources to the education system in the past 20 to 30 years under various Governments, illiteracy levels in certain sectors of our school population showed no improvement. The correlation between greater resources and better incomes was not borne out in this particular instance.
This is not a reflection on anybody. Literacy begins in the home and these findings do not reflect in any way on teachers. Nevertheless, literacy and numeracy are key predictors of future outcomes for children in the education system. That is why I had to find €19 million from within my budget to finance all the components of the literacy and numeracy strategy, including the changes required in the primary teaching degree and the higher diploma in education, with the former extended from three years to four and the latter from one year to two. The €2.5 million I saved by terminating the modern languages initiative was a significant component of that funding.
The 2008 report was extremely complimentary of the modern languages initiative. While it referred to possible overload, its recommendation was that the initiative should continue. The Minister rightly points out that the programme was never rolled out to all schools. In commentary attributed to him and to the Department there was a suggestion that a cap had been placed on an extension of the initiative. That is not correct. The cap was lifted in 2007, with an additional 200 schools joining the initiative in the meantime. There has been ill informed commentary in regard to the extension of the programme and its value and a selective excising of one comment from the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment report. That report is outdated in any case given that the NCCA is currently working on a new report on language teaching in schools.
All I can say is that there was no appetite among the professional educators in my Department, even before the PISA results were announced, to extend the initiative to all primary schools. I raised the question of literacy and numeracy standards while in opposition. The Deputy's former colleague, Mary Coughlan, as Minister for Education and Skills, responded to the PISA findings with an undertaking that the Department would take action. A draft programme was published while the Deputy's party was still in government, which I was happy to support. In June last year, when the national strategy was launched, I was more than happy to support it and to pledge that I would make the resources available to implement it. That is what I am doing and why I took the decision that I did.
5Deputy Tom Fleming asked the Minister for Education and Skills if, in view of the importance of money management in the ordinary lives of every citizen, he will initiate a revision of the primary and secondary level curricula in order that a specific course of education in this area is built into the curricula starting at fourth grade in primary school, progressing gradually through fifth and sixth grade and following on into second level, in order that current and future generations of school attendees are given the opportunity to leave school financially literate and prepared for the complex financial world in which they will live their lives. [10520/12]
View answerAspects of financial literacy are included in the curriculum at present in such areas as mathematics, home economics, economics, business and accounting, enterprise education and the mathematical applications within the leaving certificate applied programme. The programmes cover a range of skills relevant to money management. These areas will be further strengthened to the extent possible in line with ongoing curriculum reform
Get Smart with Your Money has been developed by the Financial Regulator as a specific resource for use within transition year. As part of junior cycle reform, all students will be required to cover 24 statements of essential learning. These include making informed financial decisions and developing good consumer skills. There will also be provision for school-developed short courses of 100 hours, supported by exemplars provided by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. Personal finance and mathematics for living and working are among the range of short courses suggested by the NCCA.
I put down a parliamentary question on this issue some weeks ago and was disappointed with the response I received. The various initiatives to which the Minister referred to in his response today seem rather ad hoc in nature and are apparently confined to post-primary level. Education on money management must begin at primary level. I have suggested that it commence in fourth class so that children get a grounding in the subject at an early age. Given the current financial and economic status of this country, it is about time that money management was included in the curriculum.
Is there is any mechanism by which this matter can be reviewed? For example, is there a curriculum review committee which could examine what needs to be done? Personal money management and budgeting must be taught in a coherent and precise way, not in the current ad hoc manner. I take note of what the Minister has said, but the current piecemeal and inadequate provision is unacceptable.
I appreciate the Deputy's concern but do not share his opinion that money management should be a specific curriculum subject starting as early as fourth class. There is certainly a need for it at transition year level when teenagers are becoming young adults and are much more open to the vagaries of advertising and the other issues associated with coming of age. Home economics - a subject which I would like to see a much greater number of students, particularly boys, taking - includes a section within consumer studies that deals precisely with budgeting and management of personal income. However, I am not prepared to include it as a specific curriculum subject.
It is imperative that children are taught how to read bank statements and repayment schedules, how interest on credit cards and students cards is applied, how the cost of credit works out over time, how late charges and penalties are imposed and the consequences for people who do not meet their financial obligations. We must teach the practical aspects of finance rather than focusing exclusively on theory. Two weeks ago the National Adult Literacy Agency, working in collaboration with the Educational Building Society, launched a website advising people on financial matters. EBS is a commercial financial institution that was bailed out by taxpayers. Its representatives will visit schools not because they want to teach children about financial management but in order to grow future business. It is crazy to allow a bailed out bank that type of access on the pretence of helping to develop money management skills. I am very apprehensive about having the EBS involved in this initiative, given its record.
I do not share the Deputy's opinion. Mathematical skills are taught in a variety of different ways. Transition year is the appropriate time for linkages to be made between that and consumer consciousness, budgeting, household management and so on.
Other Questions ^
6Deputy Willie O’Dea asked the Minister for Education and Skills the date on which he proposes to publish the legislation in respect of the establishment of the Statutory Trust Fund; the proposed timescale he has for the establishment of this fund; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10217/12]
View answerWork on the drafting of the residential institutions statutory fund Bill is at an advanced stage. I hope to be in a position to publish the Bill in the coming weeks. While it is not possible at this point to set out a specific timescale for the establishment of the fund, I can confirm that it is my intention to proceed to establish it as quickly as possible following enactment of the Bill.
I urge the Minister, bearing in mind the pressures on the offices of the Parliamentary Counsel and the Attorney General, to ensure the legislation is put in place as soon as possible. I have previously raised with him in parliamentary questions and at the committee the expressed concerns of the representative groups with which he met in July 2011 to discuss the remit of the statutory fund to ensure assistance would continue to be provided for the families and descendants of some of those who endured awful treatment in institutions. I also raised this issue with him in the context of our processing of the residential institutions statutory fund Bill. I am sure these concerns have also been outlined to him and other Oireachtas Members. A number of the groups with which I spoke recently are concerned that the framework as envisaged will not adequately cater for the needs of particular individuals, particularly the children and grandchildren who have been availing of assistance through the education system. The groups are concerned that this assistance will not be forthcoming under the new statutory fund. It is hoped the Minister or his officials will engage with the groups which remain concerned about the extent of the assistance that will be available to the people concerned following enactment of the legislation. We all appreciate the terrible suffering and trauma endured by so many of them.
The general scheme which is being drafted provides for the services to be provided to include counselling, psychological support services and mental health services, together with such health and personal social services, educational and housing services as the fund may determine. That is the wording that has been submitted to the Parliamentary Counsel. I know that many of the victims-survivors have requested the provision of educational opportunities for their children and grandchildren, which is a worthwhile use of the money available. However, some of the survivors are of the view that the balance of the money should be distributed in cash to those who have already received money, which is not a view that I support.
It is hoped the Minister or his officials will, prior to the legislation being brought before the House, have an opportunity to iron out the remaining concerns of the representative groups, that we will all be in a position to support the legislation when it is brought before the House and that it will achieve what everyone wants it to achieve.
That is my intention. The Deputy has met representatives of the groups involved and will be aware there is no unanimity on what should happen. However, I will do my best. While I am open to having a wide-ranging debate on the legislation on Committee Stage, there is no clear consensus among the survivors.
Have there been developments on the fund? The Minister mentioned he would like to see an increase in the amount made available. While many survivors are part of groups, others are not. What happened to the people concerned was an abuse of power. They now believe that we, in the decisions we are making that will affect their lives, are once again taking power from them. The Minister has spoken about the money aspect of the issue, but what is important is that the people concerned be allowed to make the decisions which will affect their lives. I would like to see the money being used to provide educational and other supports. However, those involved want the responsibility for decision making to be transferred to them.
The Government's intention is that €110 million will be available through the fund, being the cash portion of the offers made by the religious congregations in the aftermath of the publication of the Ryan report. However, to date, only €21.05 million of the cash contributions has been received and placed in a special interest bearing account in the Central Bank pending establishment of the statutory fund. I refer the Deputy to my reply to Deputy Smith that the money must be used wisely.
7Deputy Sean Fleming asked the Minister for Education and Skills following the recent publication by the Higher Education Authority of details around a new national strategy for higher education, if he also intends addressing the sustainability of the funding framework for increased participation in higher education; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10200/12]
View answerIn line with the national strategy for higher education, the Higher Education Authority was asked to examine the inter-relationships between funding levels, the scale of growth and the maintenance of quality in the system in order that realistic and sustainable levels of growth in numbers could be supported and that better informed choices could be made on policy options for future funding. The HEA presented an initial report to me last November. The report outlines the scale of recent reductions in funding and growth in student numbers and provides some evidence of the possible impacts on quality of provision. However, the HEA has emphasised that the report is preliminary only and that substantial additional work needs to be undertaken before comprehensive proposals on how we can sustainably fund higher education into the future can be developed. The authority is continuing its work in this area and further advice is expected later this year.
I welcome the report and the Minister's statement that it is only a preliminary report. The issue of sustainability is of huge importance. The Minister has rightly mentioned the growth in numbers, which is a welcome development. Even in these difficult and challenging economic times, undergraduate enrolments in the academic year 2010-11 increased by 4% on the figure for the previous year, which is also welcome. Enrolments in the years from 2007 to the 2010-2011 academic year increased by 40%. We all welcome the increased level of participation at third level and want to see it continue to increase. We all want to see easy access for individuals. However, we cannot have facilities spread all over the country in order to meet geographic demands. We must also meet the demand for quality. Is consideration being given to making better use of existing facilities? There has been a dramatic improvement in recent years in existing accommodation and the provision of new colleges of further education and third level facilities. The Minister of State, Deputy Sherlock, recently opened the new Trinity College Medical School. All of this investment has been worthwhile and contributed to increased participation at third level. Can we ensure better usage and occupancy of facilities?
I share the Deputy's concern about maximising the use of facilities over a 12 month period. There is wide disparity in the activities engaged in on some college campuses compared with others.
Members will be interested to hear that yesterday I met for the first time ever the presidents and chairpersons of the 14 institutions, including the DIT chairperson and president, Mr. Brian Norton, to discuss the landscape document issued recently to all third level institutions which asked that they examine ways by which they could come together to ensure greater efficiencies and a pooling of resources and that they form strategic alliances in order that there would be greater productivity and effectiveness in existing infrastructure. I intend to meet the seven universities to engage in a similar exercise.
Enrolments are to the credit of the institutions, as they have continued to increase at a time when their allocations from the Exchequer have been reduced. Members will be aware that the level of funding was reduced by 2% this year and will be further reduced over a three year period by a maximum of 6%. I share the analysis in the Hunt report that we need to look at the financing of third level education. I am awaiting a response in this regard, but there is capacity to achieve greater efficiencies within the existing system and greater room for co-operation between colleges.
I, too, believe there is room for better utilisation of existing facilities. These facilities have been put in place at great cost to the Exchequer in a worthwhile investment that will provide a good return to the taxpayer. I emphasise we must maintain the quality of access to third level students in all parts of the country while at the same time appreciating one cannot have centres of excellence in specialist areas in each province either. I refer to the important work entrusted to the Hunt group and its subsequent report, which was produced at the end of 2010. This important work must receive further impetus to ensure the continuation of the valuable increase in participation in recent years. All Members are aware of the importance of ensuring people have access to third level education both to develop an individual's potential for his or her betterment, as well as that of society, and from the perspective of employment creation and the economic stimulus that is needed.
I agree with the Deputy and he may be interested that one question which arose at yesterday's meeting concerned collaboration across the Border. I believe in an all-Ireland strategy in respect of the maximised utilisation of third level education facilities. In the case of Letterkenny Institute of Technology in particular, which is somewhat isolated, there is an obvious argument for collaboration with Derry and likewise between the University of Ulster and Dundalk Institute of Technology. However, such collaboration should not be confined specifically to the Border areas and one must consider how to achieve collaboration in education on an all-Ireland basis. I note there already is some collaboration in respect of joint research.
It is welcome that the Minister has met the different groups, as a strategic approach must be taken in this regard. However, supports are needed. For example, there has been an increase of 30% in the number of students entering the Institute of Technology Tallaght, which is located beside many empty properties under the control of NAMA, and there should be joined-up government in respect of using those resources. The Minister must be the driver of change in this regard and must pull in his colleagues. Such opportunities are sitting there and it is possible to come up with imaginative ways to deal with the difficulty pertaining to finance.
I already have had informal discussions with the Higher Education Authority on identifying properties that could be utilised for educational purposes and which are under the control of NAMA. If the Deputy has specific queries or specific suggestions to make regarding useful properties that could be added to the Institute of Technology Tallaght, I would be more than happy to discuss them with him, first to identify whether they are under the NAMA umbrella and then to identify what stage they are at.
8Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he has recovered the funding, some €5 to €6 million, given by the last Government to set up the Teaching Council; if his attention has been drawn to the anger among teachers of having to pay this fee and their criticisms of this organisation which is collecting approximately €5 million annually from teachers and in view of plans in England to disband their Teaching Council; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10012/12]
View answerIt is essential there is in place a robust system of regulation for the teaching profession. The Teaching Council's role is key to ensuring the development and implementation of standards for teachers' conduct and performance, which complements the work of initial and continuing teacher training. Much progress has been made by the council, as reports placed before the House illustrate.
The annual registration fee of €90 is significantly lower than registration fees charged by many other professional regulatory bodies. Moreover, tax relief may be sought from the Revenue Commissioners with regard to the fee. The funding advanced to the council prior to 2008 was to enable it to establish and run its operations and there are no plans to recoup this funding. When the remaining sections of the legislation are commenced, the council's income will be more fully utilised. In view of the importance of having a strong regulator for the teaching profession, I do not have any intention of disbanding the Teaching Council.
I cannot believe it, given what the Minister's counterpart in England is doing and the latter's description of the General Teaching Council for England as a quango that must be scrapped. I will make a single point to the Minister, which is that the Teaching Council's biggest activity last year appears to have been to seek a 20% increase in salary for its retiring director to increase her lump sum and pension. At the same time, however, a teacher who only teaches for two hours each week must pay €90 and young people emerging from the training colleges and universities are unable to get an interview without paying €90 but have no guarantee of getting a job. I have yet to meet a teacher who thinks this constitutes good use of his or her €90.
The Education (Amendment) Bill 2012 has passed through the other House and if memory serves me correctly, it will be introduced to this House next week at which time Members will have an opportunity to discuss this issue. I share the Deputy's concerns because many professional bodies, including my own, namely, the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland, have different rates of contribution for those who are unemployed, work part-time or are retired. However, the commencement of section 30, which is what the aforementioned Bill will do, will enable the Teaching Council to act as a professional body in a way that it has not been able to do previously. I certainly do not regard the Teaching Council as a quango and the Secretary of State for Education in the United Kingdom was wrong in abolishing its equivalent.
Obviously, I am disappointed by the Minister's response. Teachers are in favour of being regulated and have no problem in this regard but this Teaching Council certainly has not shown itself to be professional in the few years since its establishment. Moreover, it is taking in approximately €5 million per year and the Minister could seek to recoup the initial advance of €5 million, which could go into a great many other services that are vitally needed in education.
If the Teaching Council wishes to give back €5 million, I would take it in the morning.
The Minister should demand it.
A new Teaching Council is to be established in the near future, by the end of March if memory serves, and as the Deputy is aware, the teaching unions and representatives have a say in the council's composition. If there is dissatisfaction with the manner in which the council has performed to date, the remedy is in the hands of those teachers who choose to exercise their vote or persuade their national executives to renew the composition of the council.
9Deputy Michael McGrath asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he will provide an update on his review of the way fee paying schools are spending moneys received from fees; when he expects this review to be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10209/12]
View answerI announced the review last December in the context of the budget, where I made a further one-point change to the staffing allocation of fee-charging schools. I indicated at the time that the purpose of the review would be to inform future policy in respect of Exchequer support for these schools. The review will be completed in the coming months and in time to inform Government deliberations on the next budget.
The majority of fee-paying schools have responded to a request from my officials seeking initial information regarding tuition fees charged for the academic year 2011-12. Reminders have issued to a small number of schools. Once complete, this information will enable a calculation of the gross income from tuition fees in respect of each school and it will be related to the Exchequer resources foregone by each school because it is a fee-charging school. The information will be shared with the schools and each school will be provided with an opportunity to provide any further information on its finances and liabilities that may have an impact on the level of fee income it actually has available.
I thank the Minister for his reply. Even though the pupil-teacher ratio was increased slightly, all Members accept that fee-paying schools do not face the challenges faced by so many schools in disadvantaged areas in particular. Is it true that such private schools take in €120 million in fees? Is that general figure correct? If particular changes are to be made, cognisance must be taken of the Protestant schools in which boarding is a necessity in many instances. The Minister has heard me speak on the challenges facing many minority faith schools at primary level and has discussed this with me privately. I also am concerned about the challenges facing boarding schools that are under the patronage of minority faiths.
I believe the figure of €120 million is an estimate based on multiplying the number of pupils in each school by the demonstrated fees. I understand that some schools have a mechanism for not charging fees, if the economic circumstances in a particular family deteriorate, to enable the child to finish school. One should recall that all secondary schools charged fees until the period between 1966 and 1968, when Donogh O'Malley's scheme was being introduced. The schools chose voluntarily to participate in a scheme whereby in return for not charging fees, they received a block grant from the State. Out of 730 post-primary schools, 55 schools chose not to participate in the free voluntary scheme, of which 33 were of Catholic ethos, while the remainder predominantly were Protestant and they chose to remain outside the scheme for different reasons. We asked for this detailed information because there is a wide discrepancy in the economic cohort of pupils in the different schools, particularly in the Protestant fee-paying schools. When we get that information, we will be in a better place to see how we can provide additional help to some schools as opposed to others.
Near the Deputy's own constituency, the Protestant Wilson's Hospital School caters for a large number of pupils from across the country as well as from the hinterland between Longford and Westmeath. That school has managed to separate the operation of the educational school component of their activities and have opted to join the free scheme from that point of view. They have a separate set of accounts for the residential and boarding component of the school and for the educational side of it. That may be a model that can be adapted for some schools that I know are having difficulty at the moment.
10Deputy Peadar Tóibín asked the Minister for Education and Skills the way changes to staffing schedules announced in Budget 2012 will affect a school (details supplied), a two teacher Church of Ireland faith based school that may be forced to close should it lose one of its teachers. [10035/12]
View answerThe school referred to by the Deputy is a two-teacher school with 19 pupils. It will continue to be a two-teacher school in September 2012. Based on its current enrolment it will remain a 2-teacher school in September 2013. It may lose a teacher in September 2014. However, it can avoid this if its overall enrolment increases in the previous September to 20 pupils. This gives a lead-in period of more than one year - to September 2013 - to increase its enrolment to 20 pupils. Therefore, it is completely premature to say that the school concerned is at risk of closure. The Government recognises that small schools are an important part of the social fabric of rural communities. They will continue to be a feature of our education landscape. However, this does not mean that small schools can stand still or never have their staffing levels changed to something that is more affordable and sustainable for these difficult and challenging times.
The school itself has been open since 1903. The management sees a difficulty arising next year rather than this year. I presume it has an idea about the pupil numbers in that school for next year, which is why it is concerned about losing that second teacher. The school has already been amalgamated and 27 out of the 31 Protestant schools in Donegal are all facing this. That is replicated right across the country. I have met representatives from schools in Clare, Cork and across the State. They all say that the changes are affecting the Protestant minority schools.
Can the Minister of State postpone these changes until the value for money report is completed? We need to come up with some sort of alternative arrangement for these schools. We are decimating them at a time when the Protestant population is getting smaller and smaller. Many of these people left the State in the past but have a stake in these areas and want to stay there. One of the things that keeps them in those areas is the school to which they can send their children.
I have already made it clear that school communities should have no reason to feel that there will be a forced closure of their local school. No school closes because it loses a teacher. Small primary schools that had to close in recent years were those that were no longer viable due to falling enrolment. The enrolment in such schools had typically fallen below a total of eight pupils for two consecutive school years. The school to which the Deputy refers currently has 19 pupils. I set out quite clearly at the beginning that if it continues to have numbers of that order, it will retain its second teacher for many years to come.
For constitutional reasons, it is not possible to discriminate positively towards any particular religion or ethos, and the Department is obliged to operate the same staffing arrangements for Church of Ireland schools as any Catholic or any other type of school. I am sure the Deputy is aware that his colleague in Northern Ireland is questioning the educational attainment and standards available in the small rural school network in Northern Ireland. He has gone so far as to say that one would have to question the viability of any school operating with fewer than 100 pupils. We are making no such statement.
We also await the publication of the value for money report, which is due towards the end of next month. We can then begin the conversation on how we sustain and build upon the excellent tradition of education in rural Ireland. We must also look at how this challenge is being addressed in other jurisdictions, where we have similarly dispersed rural communities, such as Wales and Scotland.
We also need to look at how other jurisdictions deal with it. It has to be about education outcomes for children within those schools. It cannot be on budgetary issues alone. It must be about transport links, community links, a suitable premises and so on.
The problem is that we have already had an amalgamation here. Representatives from another school in Ardara came to me and told me that the nearest school was 50 km away in one direction and 22 km in another direction. We can only amalgamate so much, given the difficulties with transporting pupils from one place to another and so on. We need to look at how we can resolve this. I am open to looking at any solutions suggested. These people feel under attack. It is a slow attack, but it is undermining their ethos.
An attack on schools in rural Ireland is the last thing this policy aims to achieve. I come from rural Ireland and I attended a two-teacher school in rural Ireland. My mother taught for 42 years in the same school. I am not launching an attack on rural Ireland. We are trying to ensure that the quality of the education provided in every institution, be it from the two-teacher school to the 15-teacher school, is of the same standard and that pupils emanating from that system have the best possible education made available to them.
I do not agree with the Deputy that we have exhausted all the amalgamation opportunities at this stage. Perhaps we may have done so in some communities, such as those he mentioned. The publication of the value for money report will allow us to have that debate and discussion. It is reasonable to suggest that one solution may work in one part of rural Ireland and may not be the solution for the other part of rural Ireland. We will look at all those opportunities when the debate begins.
I support what Deputy Crowe said about the schools under the patronage of minority faiths. The amalgamation of those schools in my two counties is exhausted. If one or two of the remaining schools closed, it would not be possible to bring the children to another under the patronage of their own church.
The Minister of State and the Minister may have seen a joint statement by Father John Joe Duffy and by Reverend John Deane in Donegal, which outlined their concerns about schools under the patronage of the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian church and the Roman Catholic Church in Donegal. Doubt and concerns have set in. If the Minister of State can give reassurance to those people that their schools are not under threat, that would be a very good day's work.
The school I attended was amalgamated in rural Ireland when there were 24 pupils in the school. There are many more houses in that area now, but there are no children. If we amalgamate a school with another school in a more populous area, the young people will be taken from that original area and they will not go back. Sections of rural Ireland are being gradually depopulated by going down the road of amalgamation. Amalgamation has been exhausted. When amalgamation was brought in at the start, free transport was provided, but that is a thing of the past now. In many areas, there is no transport at all.
We have been anxious to point out from the very beginning that there will be no forced amalgamation of any rural schools or forced closure. I do not agree that the amalgamation options have been exhausted yet. I recall a colleague of mine saying in the Seanad last week that there were seven schools in his parish, consisting of an eight-teacher school, a smattering of two-teacher schools and a one-teacher school. There are opportunities and if they are to be taken up, it will be with the willingness and at the behest of local communities. That is something we stressed from the outset.
Deputy Smith raised some concerns regarding Church of Ireland rural schools. We are actively exploring opportunities with the Northern Ireland Minister with regard to discovering whether we might create a corridor along the Border so that students on both sides might traverse it to access the type of education which reflects the ethos in which they are being raised. Discussions in that regard are ongoing.
Exploration around all of these challenges will commence with the publication of the value for money report. I am not trying to pre-empt the report - the detail of which I am not familiar with - but in general it will praise the standard of education that is being provide in rural areas. In addition, it may offer some interesting solutions, which are not apparent at this point, in the context of how we should continue to provide this very high standard of education
11Deputy Tom Barry asked the Minister for Education and Skills if it is his policy to concentrate second-level funding in vocational education committee schools rather than voluntary schools; and in relation to the additional funding that is being provided, the population growth projections on which the funding allocations are based. [10017/12]
View answerI assure the Deputy that my priority is to ensure that there is sufficient school accommodation to meet projected pupil increases in the future. I envisage that this will result in school projects being undertaken in all school sectors to achieve this objective. In this regard, I have already committed to publishing a five-year plan which will outline the major school projects that will commence construction in that time. As well as the 20 new schools being established where patronage is to be determined, there will be major extension projects required in many existing schools to cater for our growing school population. In this context, my Department identified a number of schools, including VEC and voluntary secondary schools, as potential host schools for additional accommodation and has already consulted a number of patrons and schools on the matter. The Department will also consider applications from schools for funding for additional classrooms - which schools may provide on a permanent basis - where an immediate enrolment need arises.
12Deputy Thomas P. Broughan asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he is reviewing the establishment of computer science as full syllabus subject at primary level and at secondary junior and senior cycle level in view of the ever increasing importance of computer science graduates to the economy here; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10011/12]
View answerI have no plans to introduce computer science as a curriculum subject. The focus in schools is on using information and communications technology, ICT, as a tool in learning, guided by the ICT curriculum framework developed by the NCCA. This is supported by digital content on the scoilnet website, by professional development programmes for teachers and by investment in ICT infrastructure. All post-primary schools will be connected to a 100 mbps broadband service by the end of 2014. This will provide for improved integration of ICT in learning.
The forthcoming reforms in junior cycle will allow for the introduction of school-developed short courses of 100 hours duration as an option. This will provide further opportunities for schools to progress the provision of courses in computer science. In addition, ICT will be an area of essential learning which all students will be required to experience, and managing information and thinking will be embedded in subjects as a core skill. There is also a transition year option in respect of having fun with computer programming and games and, under the ICT action plan, this is being expanded nationally.
On behalf of the children of Bonnybrook, Priorswood and Darndale in my constituency and those in other areas, I thank the Minister for rowing back on the planned cuts in respect of the DEIS programme. This is a significant and important development for the children to whom I refer.
I sometimes feel that in respect of the matter to which I have just referred and in the context of others, the Minister has become a sort of prisoner of Marlborough Street. He will recall that we had one or two meetings in respect of other matters at his office in the Department of Education and Skills and I am of the view that the culture which obtains in that institution has captured him. The Minister just read out exactly the same reply which he gave to me on two previous occasions since this Dáil came into being. I am not referring to information and communications technology, giving children laptops or making them familiar with computers, I am referring rather to computer science. The chairman of Google, Eric Schmidt, recently criticised the British education system and stated that the country which invented computers had lost sight of the fact that there is a need to embed computer-related subjects in the school curriculum. I refer, here, to programming and analytical mathematics. The Minister will be aware that one of Ireland's great mathematicians, Mr. William Rowan Hamilton, invented the quaternions that are used in computer gaming.
There is evidence that from a very young age children can become interested in computers and there are even babies who can use iPads. I am aware that the Minister is computer literate and I wish to impress on him the need to foster a situation whereby children might be exposed to computers right throughout primary level. I have in my possession a very simple curriculum which includes subjects such as an introduction to programming, computing and data analysis, robotics and web design. We need to familiarise children with these subjects and then include them on the curriculum.
It was stated recently that there are approximately 5,000 vacancies in the ICT industry here and that these cannot be filled from among the ranks of our young people because they do not have the necessary skills. The Minister referred earlier to the great Donogh O'Malley who introduced free second level education. If the Minister is seeking a big idea, then perhaps it could revolve around enabling children to take computer science as a fully-fledged subject right the way up to leaving certificate level. He should try to break free from the chains that have been put around him in Marlborough Street.
Good man, Deputy Broughan.
I do not share the Deputy's concern that I have been captured by Marlborough Street. I certainly do not feel that to be the case.
The Minister was well locked in on the previous occasion on which I visited him there. The place was like a fortress.
That was a slightly different event and a different situation.
Deputy Broughan is a professional educationalist, whereas I am not. I cannot argue with him in respect of the points he has articulated. However, the note with which I have been supplied states that it is not feasible to teach everything in school and that education policy is becoming increasingly focused on learning over the length of a person's life span. Young people are learning how to use computers in the day-to-day environment of school. I have seen evidence of this in my own home with my 17 year old son who is always using the computer to complete homework assignments and to do other things.
I presume the Deputy was referring to computer science being taken as a specific subject at second level.
I do not know whether that would be possible. We could certainly consider it in terms of reform of the junior certificate examination and make it a specific subject designed to prepare the ground for those young people who might wish to pursue a career in computers. There is a worldwide shortage of highly computer-literate people, which is why we are experiencing difficulties in filling vacancies. In that context the Skillnets programme and the ICT action plan, which I recently launched, provide people with the opportunity to convert their skills. Some 750 placements are available under the action plan. I would be quite happy to raise this matter with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, to discover whether a specific module could be included in the new curriculum for junior certificate students.
I thank the Minister for his reply. He will be aware that when he was leader of the Labour Party and I was one of its spokespersons, our ambition was to have a computer at every desk for every child all the way up through the education system. We have now gone beyond that. Those who work in this area have often referred to the example of people learning how to drive cars. In this instance, we are discussing the engineering relating to cars and how cars are made. Clearly this is an industry which is extremely important to our country and which has great potential in economic terms.
I already referred to Google, the Irish headquarters of which is located in the Minister's constituency. I also referred to Mr. Eric Schmidt, who helped Larry Page and Sergey Brin launch that company, and the fact that he informed Britain - which has a lacuna similar to that which exists here in its school curriculum - that it invented the mathematics, and so on, relating to this technology but that it is now ignoring said technology and is not prepared to be innovative. I welcome the Minister's comment to the effect that he will raise this matter with the NCCA.
Deputy Smith would have heard Lord Puttnam, who has a great interest in education and who is chancellor of the Open University, speak at several recent events. In the context of digitalising the written word, Lord Puttnam argues that the use of computer technology is transforming the blackboard into the white board. The use of ICT is transforming the way in which education and communication are delivered. People face quite a major challenge in this regard, particularly those in the teaching profession. It is, after all, teachers who we will ask to deliver in this area. I will discuss with the NCCA the ideas Deputy Broughan has articulated.
Computer science graduates would be needed.
13Deputy Martin Ferris asked the Minister for Education and Skills the timeframe for the 800 FÁS staff who are transferring to the vocational educational committee sector; the composition of the board of SOLAS; and if there will be union representation for employees. [10033/12]
View answerFollowing the Government decision in July 2011 to establish SOLAS, an implementation group was put in place to oversee the process. This group includes representatives from FÁS, the further education sector, as well as from the Departments of Education and Skills and Social Protection.
Given the complex elements involved, including appropriate legislation to establish SOLAS and legislation providing for the establishment of education and training boards to replace the vocational education committees, VECs, it is not possible to give a precise timeframe for the transfer of staff. This will have to be considered carefully by the implementation group in the context of all the elements involved, including the need to ensure continuity of provision of further education and training places.
The composition of the board of SOLAS, the question of staff representation and other related matters will be considered as part of the ongoing implementation process. As part of this work, a consultation process is being undertaken with all relevant stakeholders, which amount to more than 150. It is envisaged there will be appropriate consultations with staff representatives on staff transfers.
The key role of SOLAS concerns policy, strategy and funding adult and further education and training. For these reasons, it is vital the entity have the skills and expertise necessary to execute these functions. The skills and expertise must be drawn from the VEC and FÁS sectors if it is to be effective. Therefore, it would be wise for the board of SOLAS to provide for equal representation for the VECs and FÁS, with the executive of SOLAS being staffed on a ratio of 50:50 by personnel from the VECs and FÁS. Will the Minister of State confirm that the 200 staff employed at FÁS head office will be transferred to SOLAS?
What we are involved in is the most far-reaching and fundamental reform of the further education and training sector the country has seen. It is a gargantuan task in change management that requires the co-operation, willingness and enthusiasm of everybody involved in further education and training. As chairman of the implementation group since last July, these are forthcoming. We have representatives from the Irish Vocational Education Association, IVEA, at the table of the SOLAS implementation group. We also have representatives from FÁS. There is enthusiasm, energy, ambition and a willingness to provide the very best further education and training the country can provide and to put in place a system over which we can all stand and of which we can be proud.
It is far too early to say 200 staff from FÁS will be transferring to SOLAS. We will look at the resources available throughout the VEC sector and in FÁS and the constituent parts throughout the country to extract everything we need to put in place a world-class further education and training system. We do not want to be too dogmatic or in any way prescriptive at this time.
The implementation process is ongoing. I have asked for the opinions of more than 150 stakeholders on how we should make things happen. They have submitted written contributions and at the end of next month we will bring them all together under one roof for what I hope will be a lively half-day conversation on how we can make SOLAS happen. Any negativity or paranoia about the issues involved will be addressed in sitting down and speaking to one another and allowing everybody to understand that we are all setting out with the same ambition to achieve the same goal.
The so-called negativity and paranoia, as described by the Minister of State, are down to uncertainty and the absence of a timeframe. The Minister of State needs to put in place a timeframe and set out the parameters for when he hopes to have the process completed. I fully understand he must seek the views of all stakeholders and that this is the proper way to do it. However, he needs to put in place a system or structure, whereby the process can continue for only so long. At the end of that timeframe he needs to make it clear that he intends to put it all together.
The Deputy is correct. We do need to have a definitive timeline to eliminate any misunderstanding or misinformation. The SOLAS implementation group has achieved a great deal in the very short time it has been in existence. On a paper basis, we have piloted the amalgamation of FÁS and the VECs in Cork and Dublin which has thrown up some very interesting results, some of them positive. The legislation to bring SOLAS and the educational and training boards into being should pass through both Houses of the Oireachtas in record time by the end of the year. SOLAS should come into existence early next year. I am very confident that when the process is complete, everybody who works in the further education and training sector will be very proud of what will have been achieved.
Written Answers follow Adjournment.
The Dáil adjourned at 5.45 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 28 February 2012.
