Army Barracks

Thursday, 21 June 2012

Questions (3, 4, 5)

Mattie McGrath

Question:

3Deputy Mattie McGrath asked the Minister for Defence the savings that have been made as a result of the closure of Kickham Barracks, Clonmel, County Tipperary; the costs associated with the provision of security and maintenance at the former Kickham Barracks site; the costs associated with the provision of an alternative building for the Reserve Defence Forces who were formerly located at Kickham Barracks; his plans for the Kickham Barracks site in the future; if he has progressed the idea of relocating Clonmel Garda Station onto the premises; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30133/12]

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Dara Calleary

Question:

4Deputy Dara Calleary asked the Minister for Defence the progress that has been made in the use of the army barracks closed in 2012; the amount of money spent on the maintenance and security of the closed barrack sites to date; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30132/12]

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Seamus Healy

Question:

5Deputy Seamus Healy asked the Minister for Defence the progress made regarding the future of the site of the former Kickham Barracks, Clonmel, County Tipperary; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30134/12]

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Oral answers (32 contributions)

Deputy Alan Shatter

I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 to 5, inclusive, together.

The consolidation of the Defence Forces formations into a smaller number of locations is a key objective in the ongoing defence modernisation programme and has been recommended in many reports over the past number of years. This was a key consideration of the Government in addressing this issue as releasing personnel from security and support functions enables the operational capacity of the Defence Forces to be maintained notwithstanding the fall in strength. As with previous rounds of consolidation under the Defence Forces modernisation programme, barracks, once vacated, are being disposed of with the proceeds being used to fund the upgrading of Defence Forces equipment and infrastructure.

Military personnel occupied on security and support functions within the four barracks closed on 30 March 2012 have been released for operational duties leading to an efficiency gain of around €5 million per annum. In addition, there are direct cash savings of approximately €1.3 million per annum arising from utilities, maintenance and security duty allowances in the four barracks.

Since the announcement of the Government's decision on barrack closures, my Department has written to each Department, various agencies and local authorities seeking expressions of interest in acquiring any of the properties to benefit the local community as a whole but with particular emphasis on job creation measures. As a result, I can confirm that agreement has been reached with Mayo County Council for the purchase of Mitchell Barracks, Castlebar. The council has already taken over the property under a caretaker agreement pending full completion of the necessary legal paperwork to complete the transfer of title.

There have also been discussions between officials from my Department and a number of other State agencies on the sale of Kickham Barracks, Clonmel, and Cavan. However, these discussions are still ongoing. Some discussion has also taken place on Mullingar Barracks but no substantial progress has been made towards achieving a sale. Every effort will be made to dispose of the barracks so as to maximise the benefits to the local community.

When barracks close, there is an onus on my Department to provide necessary security and undertake maintenance and upkeep as required. Security fencing is under way at some of the barracks at a total estimated cost of €130,000. Temporary additional security measures have also been put in place at a cost of €40,000 to date. Out of those figures approximately €36,000 has been spent on Kickham Barracks.

Regarding Reserve Defence Force premises in Clonmel, a property has been identified. Several minor issues have arisen with the lease which are being addressed, however.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I asked a specific question about Kickham Barracks and the Minister has bundled it in with others which I am not happy about. He also gave only one figure of €36,000 when the question requested three figures. He did not even answer the last part of the question on the relocation of the Garda station in Clonmel. The gardaí based there are working in a hovel, a third world premises which is not fit for purpose of any shape, make or form and access for the public is disgraceful. Will he reply to that part of the question?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Could the Deputy complete his question because I have to bring in the other Deputies who put down questions on this?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There were three parts to that detailed question and the Minister only answered one. He often talks about my ramblings but they were put down on paper to him. He had time to answer them but he failed. He is more interested in jibes at Fianna Fáil and the Technical Group, for which he seems to have an obsession.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We will come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

He will, however, have to go out to the working class people in Tallaght and look after them. He might not like that.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I do not know what Deputy Mattie McGrath is taking but it makes life very interesting when he is in the House.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Would the Minister just answer the questions? I wish himbon voyage to Tallaght.

Deputy Alan Shatter

The issue of Kickham Barracks and the relocation of Clonmel Garda station is being discussed in the context of the disposal of the barracks. I am conscious of the condition of the Garda station in question.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Will the Minister come down to see it?

Deputy Alan Shatter

There is a particular problem, however, which is that the Office of Public Works has substantially less funding available to it for the construction of new Garda stations as a consequence of the destruction of our fiscal base-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Will the Minister answer the question and forget about the past?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please, Deputy.

Deputy Alan Shatter

-----by the previous Government, a Government for which Deputy Mattie McGrath was happy to vote and of which he was part.

Regard has been taken of relocation of the Garda station to the Clonmel barracks. I hope and believe discussions that are taking place on this matter will come to a successful outcome.

Deputy Dara Calleary

We had debates with the Minister with his justice hat on the threat posed by dissident republican activity. There have been several serious incidents since the decision was taken to close Cavan Barracks. Given this threat, we may need a military presence on the Border. Will the Minister agree that Cavan Barracks, given its location, would be the most ideal place for such a presence?

In discussions with various groups the Minister met regarding the barracks in Mullingar, he mentioned there was potentially an interest from a foreign third level institution. Has that progressed?

Deputy Alan Shatter

That interest was a possibility but, unfortunately, those in top management at the particular institution changed. It seems the interest has fallen away. We were hoping something beneficial to the area would come of that. Unfortunately, that interest does not seem to be there. I did say when I mentioned it that I did not want to give rise to any unreal expectations as it was an initial interest.

On the basis of advice from the Garda Síochána and the Army's Chief of Staff, I am satisfied that both the Garda and Defence Forces are adequately positioned to take any action that may be necessary and have the capability to do so should there be some issue or incident with dissident republican activity that gives rise to concern. As the Deputy knows, there is a good relationship, with maximum co-operation, between the Garda Síochána and the PSNI in dealing with a broad range of security issues. That will continue. The Army is only engaged as a backup to the civil power should the need arise, and the chief of staff is quite satisfied that any eventuality that could occur can be properly addressed based on the current barracks and the manner in which the Defence Forces are currently deployed.

Deputy Seamus Healy

Will the Minister confirm the interest of South Tipperary Vocational Education Committee in part of Kickham Barracks? The committee has a building immediately adjacent to the barracks and I know it has an interest in a small portion of the site, together with the north block. I support Deputy McGrath's comments regarding relocation of the Garda barracks.

I believe the Minister mentioned a figure of approximately €36,000 for security costs for Kickham Barracks. Is that the correct figure? Will the Minister confirm the tendering process in place for that work?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There was none.

Deputy Seamus Healy

Will the Minister outline if the process was adhered to in that case? I have previously raised the matter of a memorial plaque for Company Sergeant Felix Grant, and his son Felix, known as Tony, has been in contact with the Department. He was also a member of the Defence Forces, and he has indicated the family's preference to have the memorial plaque back in Clonmel. Will the Minister confirm the position of the plaque?

Deputy Alan Shatter

I know there have been discussions about the plaque, which was removed for safe keeping.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I hope it is not scrap metal.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Officials from the Department are happy to be engaged in discussions and if an appropriate arrangement can be agreed, I would be happy to be of assistance. Some further work needs to be done on the matter.

I confirm that among the groups or individuals which have shown an interest in the barracks is the VEC. I understand discussions are ongoing in that context and I am optimistic that there will be some fruitful development from those discussions. I do not want to pre-empt decisions and I am conscious that there is some way to go on that issue, which involves not just decisions by the VEC and the Department of Defence but matters that must be addressed by the Department of Education and Skills. There has been constructive engagement and I would welcome progress.

As I was saying to Deputy McGrath when Deputy Healy came into the House, I am conscious, wearing the two hats I have, of the need for a new Garda station. I also know that a portion of the barracks could provide a very good location for a new Garda station. The difficulty is that the Office of Public Works, OPW, the group within the Government which funds the construction of Garda stations, has very limited available funding. We are giving serious consideration to facilitating the reservation of space that would help in building a Garda station at a time when funding becomes available. We are anxious not to make decisions that would create a difficulty in that context but, unfortunately, in current financial circumstances a number of Garda stations are required in various parts of the State as a consequence of others either being in poor condition or not meeting the needs of areas that have seen expansion. A number of these projects will be put on hold for some time.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Will the Minister visit Clonmel Garda station? From discussions with the Garda, I understand it would need a good portion of the 11-acre site, perhaps five acres or more. The Department owns the site so it is important that the Minister ring-fence it and make the site available. We can deal with the OPW at another stage and do our best. I also support the VEC using the location. I am fearful that vandalism will occur and the site will go into disrepair. This is a prime location in pristine condition and I hope it will not be like the Army barracks in Kildare, which is horrifying to see.

The Minister's reply implies that no tender process was carried out for the provision of security, and local security firms are very annoyed because they did not get the opportunity to tender. Will the Minister confirm that?

Deputy Seamus Healy

I welcome the Minister's response with regard to the VEC and the Garda, as well as the information on the memorial plaque. Is it correct that €36,000 has been spent to date on security for the barracks? Will the Minister inform us of the tendering process? Was it adhered to for Kickham Barracks? What will be the cost of securing this new building for the Reserve Defence Forces?

Deputy Dara Calleary

It strikes me that the Minister is trying to achieve some kind of solution for putting a Garda barracks in the old Army barracks in Clonmel. There is a high proportion of unemployment in south Tipperary, with many of those unemployed including craftspeople. In the 1980s, AnCO was able to complete some superb State buildings. Would it be possible, in conjunction with the OPW and Department of Social Protection, to get it done in a cost-effective way with a pilot scheme?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Where Tipperary leads, others follow.

Deputy Alan Shatter

If a new Garda station is to be built, a substantial capital outlay must be incurred. We must have a state-of-the-art station meeting all the operational necessities of modern policing and we cannot have a jerry-built sticking plaster of a building. I know the Deputy is not suggesting that.

Deputy Dara Calleary

The core building is there.

Deputy Alan Shatter

There is currently no funding. I could take the Deputy around the country and point out where we need new Garda stations but the funding is not there. We need planning for the process and I will not pretend that the money for it exists, although I wish it did. I wish we had the sort of capital allocations that existed in years gone by as I share the Deputy's view that if we were able to fund projects of this nature, it would contribute to employment. We are dependent on funding from the EU and IMF and we are required to reduce expenditure across a broad range of areas. Unfortunately, I cannot produce by magic money that does not exist.

I assure Deputies that there are security arrangements for Kickham Barracks and there is no possibility of a repeat of some of the events which took place in Kildare. Frankly, the previous Government did not do what was necessary to properly secure that property. It was temporarily made available to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform of the previous Government and when it ceased using it, the barracks was not adequately secured. We took immediate steps to secure all four vacated barracks and did what was necessary to avoid the problems quite properly pointed out by Deputy McGrath as occurring in Kildare. That is the interest not simply of the State in reserving its assets but also the local communities. I hope that within a reasonable period, the barracks in Cavan and Clonmel will change ownership and there will be developments of benefit to the local community.

I am concerned there is not the same level of interest yet in Mullingar. I hope in what we are doing we will stimulate that interest.

In the intervening period, we will ensure the barracks are properly secured as assets to the State and I will do what I can as Minister for Justice and Equality, in consultation with my colleague in the Office of Public Works, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, to push forward where it is possible the construction of new Garda stations. This is an issue Deputy Tom Hayes has raised with me on a regular basis and I am fully aware of the local position. He has expressed concern about developments in Clonmel and has directly engaged with some of the groups that have visited the barracks in Clonmel with a view to acquiring portions of the barracks for projects that would be of benefit to the local community.