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Cabinet Committees

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 26 June 2012

Tuesday, 26 June 2012

Questions (9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31)

Thomas P. Broughan

Question:

1Deputy Thomas P. Broughan asked the Taoiseach if there is a Cabinet Committee on Justice and Defence. [15184/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

2Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the Cabinet Committees on which he or his Department participates. [16217/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

3Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the Cabinet Committees he has attended since January. [16218/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

4Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach When the Cabinet Committee on Climate Change will hold its next meeting [19794/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

5Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the number of meetings of the Cabinet Committee on Mortgage Arrears that he has attended. [20009/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

6Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the Cabinet Committees he has attended since March. [21297/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

7Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the number of Cabinet Committee meetings he has attended in the past three months. [23750/12]

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Gerry Adams

Question:

8Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach the Cabinet Committee meetings he has attended since the Easter recess. [23760/12]

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Gerry Adams

Question:

9Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach if the Cabinet Committee on Health has met since the Easter recess. [23761/12]

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Joe Higgins

Question:

10Deputy Joe Higgins asked the Taoiseach the number of Cabinet Committee meetings he has attended since Easter. [25364/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

11Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the Cabinet Committee meetings that have been held since January 2012. [27696/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

12Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if the Cabinet Committee on Economic Recovery and Jobs has met recently. [27697/12]

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Gerry Adams

Question:

13Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach the number of times the Cabinet Committee on Mortgage Arrears has met since its establishment. [27705/12]

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Gerry Adams

Question:

14Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach the members of the Cabinet Committee on Mortgage Arrears. [27706/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

15Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he has attended a meeting of a Cabinet Committee on Climate Change recently. [28953/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

16Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he has attended a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Health. [28958/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

17Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach when the Economic Management Council, which he chairs, is meeting the banks. [26125/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

18Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if the Cabinet Committee on Economic Recovery & Jobs has met recently. [30311/12]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

19Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if the Cabinet Committee on European Affairs has met recently. [30313/12]

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Gerry Adams

Question:

20Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach if the Economic Management Council has any plans to meet with the Banks. [30540/12]

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Gerry Adams

Question:

21Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach the number of occasions on which the Economic Management Council has met since the Easter recess. [30542/12]

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Gerry Adams

Question:

22Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach the persons who are members of the Economic Management Council. [30543/12]

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Gerry Adams

Question:

23Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach the number of meetings of the Cabinet Committee on Economic Recovery and Jobs that he has attended since the Easter recess. [30741/12]

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Oral answers (47 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 23, inclusive, together.

The Government established the following Cabinet committees, all of which I chair: economic recovery and jobs; social policy; climate change and the green economy; European affairs; economic infrastructure; Irish and the Gaeltacht; public service reform; health; and mortgage arrears.

Since January I have chaired 26 committee meetings. In January, I chaired meetings of the committees on economic recovery and jobs and European affairs; in February, the committee on health; in March, the committees on European affairs, public service reform, health and mortgage arrears; and in April, the committees on economic recovery and jobs, social policy and mortgage arrears. In May, I chaired meetings of the Cabinet committees on climate change and the green economy, social policy, European affairs, economic recovery and jobs, mortgage arrears and health. So far in June, I have chaired the committees on Irish and the Gaeltacht, mortgage arrears, economic infrastructure, economic recovery and jobs, public service reform, social policy and European affairs.

The Cabinet committee on climate change and the green economy last met on 2 May and will meet again in due course. There have been six meetings of the Cabinet committee on mortgage arrears since it was established in March, the last of which took place yesterday evening. I chair this committee and its members include the Tánaiste and the Ministers for Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, Social Protection, the Environment, Community and Local Government and Justice and Equality and the Minister of State with responsibility for housing and planning. The Cabinet committee on health last met on 22 May. I have chaired two meetings of the Cabinet committee on economic recovery and jobs since the Easter recess.

The Economic Management Council, EMC, was established with the same status as a Cabinet committee. It has met 21 times this year: eight times since the Easter recess and 13 times since March. I chair the EMC and its membership consists of the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. The members of the EMC will meet with the banks later this evening. At the meeting the members will set out the Government's commitment to assisting those in mortgage arrears, and provide details of the strategy, which the Tánaiste and I announced earlier this afternoon, to address the mortgage arrears difficulties. The members of the EMC will also take the opportunity to seek assurances from each of the banks that they are fully committed to addressing the mortgage arrears of their customers.

Did I hear just one reference to justice and equality with regard to the Cabinet committees? Is the Taoiseach saying there is no Cabinet committee on justice and, if there is, it certainly has not met this year? I put forward this question approximately three months ago following the horrific, alleged gangland killing of two young men whose bodies were discovered in County Louth and the ongoing disaster of gangland killings and the death, for example, of Melanie McCarthy-McNamara and others. Is this situation of concern to the Taoiseach? There has also been an explosion in other areas of crime, such as burglaries. As the Taoiseach is aware, from my colleague Deputy Conaghan, there is between a 4% and 8% chance of being caught for a burglary or from a 92% to 96% chance of getting away with it. Is the Taoiseach concerned about this?

I accept the Minister for Justice and Equality has brought forward some useful and good legislation and has had some good consultation with the public on a number of criminal areas. However, is he up to getting to grips with the serious matter of crime in this country?

The Deputy is straying a bit.

The Taoiseach mentioned the Economic Management Council. There have been massive cutbacks in the area of justice. Almost 400 gardaí have retired and we are heading towards having only 13,000 gardaí. We have lost 300 patrol cars and 30 Garda stations and ten stations, including a number in my constituency, are only open in the daytime.

That is a matter for the Department.

Last week was the sixteenth anniversary of the death of Veronica Guerin, from my constituency. Finally-----

The Deputy should restrain himself, please. The Deputy's question is whether there is a Cabinet committee on justice and defence but he has gone a long way beyond that.

Yes, but I am in an unusual situation and just want to ask these questions. Is there a committee? Is the Taoiseach concerned about the situation? What is he doing about it and is the Minister delivering?

That is a matter for the Minister.

There is no specific Cabinet sub-committee on the area of justice. However, the Minister for Justice and Equality reports to Cabinet on a regular basis. He is in regular contact with the Garda Commissioner and with the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces. I deplore any attack, provoked or unprovoked, on anybody in the country, and we have seen too many of these attacks over the years. In recent days there have been a further number of tragic incidents and I share the Deputy's views on such situations. However, the changed rosters that have been introduced in respect of Garda activity are very beneficial for communities. I meet people from all over the country who recognise the impact of those changes.

I agree there are difficult decisions to be made in respect of the closure of a number of Garda stations. When I speak to communities, whether in towns or the country, what people want is visibility, a connection and access to gardaí when they need them. In many cases, having a garda sit for two hours in a decrepit building in the back end of somewhere is less beneficial than having gardaí move about a community actively and visibly where people can have access to them. The changed rosters introduced for gardaí in that regard are valuable. There is an issue with regard to capital allocation in respect of the fleet and the provision of vehicles for gardaí to do their job. There are requirements for vehicles to be replaced after a certain mileage. The Minister for Justice and Equality and the Garda Commissioner will address the capital requirement as part of their budgetary process. There is no specific Cabinet sub-committee on justice, but the Minister reports regularly to Cabinet on issues as they arise.

I have approximately eight questions submitted on this, but I will focus on just three areas. With regard to the Cabinet health committee, is the Taoiseach satisfied with the methodology and efficacy of the system in place at Cabinet level in terms of the evolution of health policy? A recent editorial inThe Irish Times highlighted the need for far greater clarity in terms of the direction of the health service and the need for public consultation. It suggested a need for the publication of a White Paper or for the Government to give some sense of where we are heading with regard to health. Despite all the promises over the past 15 months and despite the work of the Cabinet committee, which as indicated in the Taoiseach’s response has met on a number of occasions this year, no legislation is in the offing nor is there a precise timetable, as promised by the Minister, for further reform.

I put it to the Taoiseach that there is a sense of a drift in the health area, combined with a sense of dread and concern about the autumn and the capacity of the health service to get to the end of the year without serious consequences. This dread relates to the overrun and to the complete lack of governance and management of our health service since the abolition of the board of the HSE. Nothing has been put in place to replace that board. Many of the senior people have left the health service as part of the recent redundancies and there is a sense of drift, concern and anxiety at hospital, community and patient level.

With regard to the committee on mortgage arrears, will the Taoiseach clarify whether he believes it is having an impact on the significant issue facing thousands of Irish people, and couples in particular? Over 10% of mortgages are now over 90 days in arrears. By all accounts, despite the fact he has chaired a number of the Cabinet committee's meetings, the Taoiseach is not in a position to answer basic and straightforward questions about the issue at today's press conference. He cannot answer as to whether banks will continue to have a veto over any resolution arrived at as a result of the legislative framework he signed off on today. I wonder what goes on at the Cabinet sub-committee meetings if, over a lengthy period and a number of meetings, basic clarity that would give insight and information to the public cannot emerge on these issues.

I put a question to the Taoiseach previously with regard to the jobs and economic recovery committee. It has been suggested by some Ministers that the idea of the Cabinet sub-committee on jobs and economic recovery had marginalised the rest of the Cabinet with regard to economic policy and job creation. The unemployment figure stands at 14..8% and the Government's prediction and that of the Department of Finance is for this to get worse. The figures for the net employment gain over the next three years of have been revised downwards by approximately 40,000 jobs. Therefore, some 40,000 fewer jobs will be created according to this year's prediction as opposed to last year's.

Clearly, things are not working in the Cabinet committee system the Taoiseach has put in place. In the three areas I have mentioned, where Ministers have come together and meetings have been held, the situation is becoming worse. This applies to the management of health, to bringing clarity to mortgage arrears and to decisive intervention in respect of unemployment and economic recovery.

I completely disagree with Deputy Martin. The Cabinet sub-committee system is working very effectively. It brings about a focus on objectives set by the Government. Ministers, agencies and organisations are given a high level of response. For example, in the health area the programme for Government sets out the overall objective of the Government and what it wishes to achieve. The work of the Cabinet sub-committee and the Cabinet follows towards that objective. A great deal of work has been done on the HSE governance Bill, which is necessary legislation. This morning the Cabinet approved for the Minister to draft legislation on the banning of smoking in cars containing children, who would suffer otherwise as a consequence, and on risk equalisation legislation for private health care which is also necessary. The legislation to be drafted and produced in respect of health is extensive. Suffice it to say that we want to achieve the introduction of universal health insurance and a single tier system, including a strong primary care and community care systems, where money follows the patient and where people are entitled to a health service based on their medical needs rather than the amount of money in their pockets.

I made it clear today that questions of detail about the complex and extensive Bill dealing with the mortgage situation will be dealt with in full and at length on Friday. Ministers will give their report on the Bill in its entirely. The questions Deputy Martin or anyone else wish to raise will be dealt with. We sought to avoid a situation today where, by answering one element of one detail, people would make a range of assumptions about what might or might not be in it. This will bring great clarity about the Government's intention to radically overhaul the legal system by bringing about a first in Irish law in respect of personal insolvency. It will also give a great incentive to banks to deal on a bilateral basis with certain borrowers to work out a solution while keeping the interests of the people at heart such that they do not lose their homes.

This is not an isolated issue. Deputy Martin will be aware that the Government published the findings of the Keane report and that it met the regulator and the banks. The Government has required that they respond on the options, measures and facilities they intend to introduce for borrowers who are suffering from mortgage distress, negative equity and so on. It is interesting that while these are challenging times, the majority of people are still meeting in full their mortgage payments. The Economic Management Council, EMC, will meet the banks this evening. I assume the banks will want to inform the Government of the measures they intend to introduce. The Government will brief the banks on the approval of the personal insolvency Bill. The details will be available on Friday when it is published.

In addition, the Minister for Social Protection will continue to develop the website with information and advisory services in respect of mortgages. This will provide people with information on where they can access assistance and the level and nature of assistance available. This is also important.

Deputy Martin referred to the Cabinet sub-committee on economic recovery and jobs. We published the action plan for jobs in February, containing some 270 propositions. These are being monitored and overseen by my Department, where a special unit has been set up by redeploying people, together with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton. The next tranche of the programme is due to be published inside a short time. Ministers, agencies and organisations are aware of this and they have responded well so far and have made arrangements to have the relevant sections completed.

I agree with Deputy Martin that the employment situation is not as we would wish it; we would prefer if it were much stronger. This is where the priority of Government lies and this is the reason legislation on partial loan credit guarantees is going through and the reason the micro-finance agency has been announced by the Government and by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. This is also the reason the Government is preparing an investment package, in so far as a stimulus can be put forward, to focus on this matter comprehensively and urgently.

Deputy Martin is aware that the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform renegotiated the memorandum of understanding with the troika such that in respect of the sale of State assets whenever the Government decides to do so, the resource represented by a State asset can be used for investment and sustainable employment. It has taken some time to get the structure right. Everyone would prefer to see a greater take-up in the indigenous economy for the purposes of job and employment but this is where the focus of Government lies. I assure Deputy Martin that Cabinet sub-committees operate to timelines, that they are achieving objectives and that a great deal of impetus and emphasis is put on this.

Credit is due to the organisations and public servants who have worked exceptionally hard in respect of the personal insolvency Bill, a vast tome of legislation. When Deputy Martin sees it, he will understand and appreciate the effort put in by those in the Department of Justice and Equality, other Departments and the officials in the Office of the Attorney General to get this right. It will provide a clear incentive for banks and lenders to sit down with borrowers and work out bilateral arrangements in respect of which banks have been recapitalised and so that people will not lose their homes and a solution can be brought about to their mortgage problems.

The Cabinet sub-committee system is becoming more about processes rather than about substance or action. It is not about giving banks incentives to deal with people in mortgage arrears. The banks have an obligation to deal with people in mortgage arrears. They were recapitalised substantially and substantial funds were made available to help people in genuine mortgage arrears and to help people come through. The fundamental point is that it is not one detail in one discrete area about which the Taoiseach was asked today; it is the central issue. The role of the banks in all of this is central.

This raises questions about the efficacy of the committee system. The Taoiseach chairs the Cabinet sub-committee on mortgage arrears. For some reason, either he had no wish, was not in a position or he could not answer the basic question put to him three or four times today on the role of banks in vetoing any solutions that might emerge from consultation under the framework of the personal insolvency Bill. Why was a press conference held in the first place if there will be another one on Friday? It is almost as if we are having a press conference about a press conference. Perhaps it is deflecting from the different messages that have emanated from Ministers. The Cabinet sub-committees are more about processes. Are people really taking part? I understand the Taoiseach chairs the Cabinet sub-committee on public service reform.

(Interruptions).

If there are Cabinet sub-committee meetings on public service reform it is difficult to understand how we can get so many different messages emanating from Ministers when they speak publically on public service reform, that is on the Croke Park agreement, compulsory redundancies and increments. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, has a clear view about the Croke Park agreement. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport clearly has a strong views on the issues of compulsory redundancies and public sector increments. The Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, is keen to deal with premium rates and overtime and so on in the context of the health budget. Do these Ministers attend the Cabinet sub-committee on public service reform? Surely, the idea and objective of such a sub-committee is to lead to coherence from Government on such issues as public service reform and such that people can argue the toss. At least a clear message could then be sent to workers and the public that there is a sense of direction. We do not have such a sense of direction emanating from Government at the moment due to this incoherence. As far as I can see, the Cabinet sub-committee system is not adding value or authority to the work of the Government.

In many ways, it is certainly not preventing extraordinary incoherence and fundamental differences in policy that have emanated from various Ministers. Is it more about process than action? We are in an unprecedented crisis. It is no longer a matter of ticking boxes or committees going through a checklist. The interventions need to be more dramatic and incisive, particularly in regard to the unemployment situation.

It is striking that press conferences are arranged around the action plans for jobs and every small company that announces jobs but there was no press conference for the April review of the Department of Finance, which indicated that net employment would decrease by 40,000 jobs by 2015. There would be uproar if somebody announced the loss of 40,000 from the economy but there was no press conference. The information was buried in the Department's own review. Forget the politics; this is a serious issue which needs to be addressed. I do not think it is being addressed by the Cabinet committee or by the Government and the Oireachtas needs time to debate these issues in greater detail.

Before the Taoiseach replies I remind the House that questions relating to activities of individual Cabinet committees are not in order as those activities of the committees are subject to Cabinet confidentiality. As a former Minister, Deputy Martin will be aware that has always been the position, which leads us into difficult ground when we have questions such as these.

Deputy Martin will be aware that the Cabinet has a constitutional responsibility to draft a budget and, as I have already stated, that budget will be presented in December. We have made it clear that we are not going to speculate on the contents of the budget until the Cabinet makes its decisions on a range of activities. Everybody in the country can have different views about these things but drafting the budget is the Government's collective responsibility as a unit. Targets have been set in respect of the reduction to 7.5% for 2013 and the removal of €3.5 billion between tax and cuts.

Deputy Martin made a big speech but it did not reflect the questions he originally asked. He asked me the number of Cabinet committee meetings I attended in the past three months, the Cabinet committee meetings held since January 2012 and whether the Cabinet committee on economic recovery and jobs has met recently. I answered those questions and the other five questions were similar. He then made a big speech about all the things that came into his head. He asked whether the Cabinet committee on economic recovery and jobs has met recently and when the Economic Management Council is meeting the banks. That will be this evening and I have referred to it three times already. He asked whether the Cabinet committee on European affairs has met recently, and so on.

I have a fundamental disagreement with Deputy Martin's views. These Cabinet sub-committees work to an agenda and an objective and, as far as I am concerned, they are achieving their worth and value. The presentation given recently in respect of public sector reform was very extensive and outlined a range of achievements which I did not think would be possible in the time allowed.

Say that to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar.

Given the structure we have had in the public service for so many years, the activity is genuinely ground breaking. There is a more streamlined and efficient public service for the people who pay their taxes and the people of our country. Over the coming period I hope the impact of public service reform will be seen in the way services are accessed and provided and the way people are dealt with. If the Deputy wants to raise specific issues in this regard I would be happy to supply him with the information he requests in so far as I can.

Before I ask my question I wish to mention an issue which I and other Opposition Members have raised previously, namely, the fact that the Taoiseach is taking 23 parliamentary questions ranging from justice and defence, through climate change, health, mortgage arrears and Ulster Bank's crisis to the economy and jobs. I tabled eight of these questions to tease out substantive issues. I am not necessarily as interested in what was discussed in Cabinet meetings as in the issues arising. I observed Deputy Martin as he tried to deal with a pile of issues. It is not fair on him that he has to address these issues in a short space of time.

I intend to deal with the issue of health now and if I have another opportunity I will raise further issues. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform has demanded further cuts to health spending. Figures recently released indicate that 158,000 patients have been waiting since January 2011 for an appointment to be seen by a consultant. The Department of Health has signalled in its strategy that €2 billion may be taken from the health budget by 2014. Today, 313 patients are on trolleys. How is the Government dealing with this ongoing crisis? I realise we are limited in terms of asking about the issues dealt with by the sub-committee on health but have emergency meetings taken place? Has the news that 313 patients are on trolleys resulted in additional meetings? When will we see the details on the Government's plan for restructuring the HSE and the HSE governance Bill? How do we deal with that?

How will the Government deal with the aforementioned health issues? How can the Opposition interact constructively with the Government to ensure our citizens get the best health service possible? If I have the opportunity I also want to raise the issue of people in mortgage arrears and the fiasco in Ulster Bank.

I thank Deputy Adams for the constructiveness of his comments. The role of the Cabinet committee on health is to provide a basis for political oversight of the development and delivery of key health service reforms in line with the commitments set out in the programme for Government and to drive improvements in selected areas of priority. It is not the way that it should be at this moment but a number of difficult structures have to be dealt with, as the Deputy will be aware. The universal health insurance implementation group was tasked with assisting the Department of Health in drafting a White Paper on universal health insurance by the end of 2012, the approval of proposals for a risk equalisation scheme and legislation to be in place by 1 January 2013. Today, following the Cabinet sub-committee on health, the Cabinet approved the Minister's proposal to proceed with the drafting of the Bill and it is hoped to have it enacted in the autumn, in time for 2013. The special delivery unit became operational last December and was targeted with addressing the high numbers on trolleys in emergency departments and the numbers waiting for scheduled care.

More recent developments that might be of interest include the launch of the acute medicine programme, which is a new way of working with patients who present urgent or emergency medical illnesses. Its introduction across all acute hospitals in Ireland aims to save 500,000 bed days. Legislation will also be commenced to eliminate restrictions on GPs wishing to obtain contracts to treat public patients under the general medical services scheme. The Government has approved the heads of a Bill to formally abolish the board of the HSE and to establish a new directorate structure for the organisation. The report of the review of the national children's hospitals has been presented to the Minister for Health, who is considering the next steps before bringing proposals to Government. The Minister for Health is pursuing the public consultation to inform the review of the fair deal scheme, which has commenced and has a closing date of 16 July. A great deal of work was done by medical personnel in respect of a number of local hospitals around the country where public consultation will take place with respect to the proposals for future development.

Deputy Adams asked a question about what is happening in the health area. The chief medical officer presented a report to the Cabinet sub-committee last week. Some 25% of children under three years are overweight or obese. We are facing over 250,000 type II diabetes sufferers, which could happen unless we do something about it. Those in the current generation would be the first to bury those younger than themselves because of what is happening, most of which is preventable. It is a combination of information, understanding and changing structures in order to have a beneficial impact on the health of the people in the country. I found those figures staggering and frightening when one considers that a change of attitude, direction and emphasis can have a beneficial impact for so many people. The cost over the course of a lifetime of dealing with one person who contracts diabetes is very high. It will put a burden on taxpayers in the future but we can prevent it if we get the structure right. The work of the Cabinet sub-committee is very beneficial and focused when we receive reports on what we can do. I am sure Deputy Adams shares that view. The question is in the line of what is in the best interests of the people. When we receive this information, Deputy Adams can understand that we must take radical action to prevent the catastrophe coming at us.

I agree with the comments of the Taoiseach and his remarks about upcoming health problems, which are reflective of our lifestyles. I will share my experience. Recently, I wrenched myself very badly while cycling. I went to the minor injuries unit at Louth County Hospital. They did not have the facilities to deal with me so they put me in an ambulance and brought me to Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, where I spent the night on a trolley. I do not mind, I am not complaining and I do not raise these issues out of a sense of self-promotion. It was a worthwhile experience for a Member of the Legislature. Other people were on trolleys. I was put into a cubicle because, obviously, they wanted to give me some privacy. Elderly people were in a corridor and were very distressed. There was one toilet serving a very modern hospital unit. It reminded me of overcrowding in prisons I was in. My admiration, respect and support for the staff was unbounded as they dealt with these issues. I waited five and a half hours to be seen by a doctor. I went in at 7.30 p.m. and was seen after midnight. I spoke to people who had been waiting for seven or eight hours. I was released the next morning but I was in Drogheda and my car was in Dundalk. I had to return to the hospital for other checks. Although I worked in the Dáil, the Taoiseach may have noticed that I missed the odd session of Leaders' Questions. At one point I drove to Drogheda and was taken by ambulance back to Dublin. I am sure I received the same attention as everyone. Over the course of three days I was in three hospitals and two ambulances. What was edifying was the professionalism and attention of the health workers at every level. However, I also saw real distress. I heard people tell me they had been there for ten hours. Whatever progress has been made, that is the reality.

I stand in the Chamber, as does the Taoiseach, and talk about these matters and it was by fluke that I was able to experience this myself. I am not raising this matter for myself because, thank God, I am okay. Other people do not have a voice and cannot articulate this point. As we speak, they are in the same predicament.

Deputy Adams looks fine and I am sorry he fell off the bicycle. If he feels up to it, he can join me and the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Deenihan, for a charity cycle on the Ring of Kerry. There is no disagreement about the stress, tension and imposition on people who must lie on trolleys. I have had it in my family, like everyone else. Deputy Adams points out the value and commitment of front line professionals in the way they do their business but also points to why the structure must be changed. Change is always difficult to bring about. Deputy Adams makes the point about ambulances transporting him here and there but there must be a more efficient method of dealing with patients. Stepdown facilities, community facilities and the opportunity for people to remain in their homes for as long as appropriate will allow us to avoid sending elderly people to longstay institutions long before they should be there. The question of restructuring the health delivery system for the future, away from what we had in the past, is obviously complex and tortuous. This applies not only in Ireland but to all countries where change has been attempted for the betterment of the population.

There is no argument about the stress and pressure people exhibit on trolleys and in distressed positions. I am glad Deputy Adams has recovered. The point he makes about front line professionals is accepted. The point he makes about himself as a patient is obvious but the method of dealing with such cases should be restructured to give it greater effect. There was a perception of catastrophe coming down the tracks when so many professional left at the end of February but it did not happen because clinical and medical teams and hospital personnel signed up to a plan or programme for each hospital. They exhibited diligence and the capacity for change rosters and travelling distances for those redeployed in order to give of their professional services. I accept that. We want to get to a point where the service is effective and in the best interest of every patient.

Over the years, I have been in so many wards and corridors, talking to people lying on trolleys having suffered an accident. It is distressing. The Minister for Health has set out commitments to reduce times on trolleys and to have it reduced to no time if possible. There is a sense of achievement but it requires further work in the future.

What is the relationship between Cabinet sub-committees, individual Ministers and the Government? With regard to the Cabinet sub-committee on economic recovery and jobs, for example, who makes policy on the economy, the public sector and public expenditure? Does the Cabinet sub-committee make policy or is it the Government as a whole? Perhaps it is made by individual Ministers on the hoof, including, for example, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar. Has the Taoiseach given the latter a licence to shoot from the lip,-----

That is a totally separate issue.

-----demanding sackings in the public sector and cuts in the wages of low and middle-income public servants whose pay has already been cut by 15% in recent years? Is it the case, by any chance, that the Taoiseach is going into a Cabinet sub-committee with Labour Party Ministers while having the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, fly kites for Fine Gael to see what further increments in austerity might be put on the shoulders of ordinary people as part of ongoing Government policy? Is it proper that one of the Taoiseach's Ministers should join what has been a four-year campaign of denigration of public sector workers by certain newspaper chains-----

That is an entirely different question. The Deputy is going on a different tack altogether.

-----which have disgracefully attacked and undermined them? Is it appropriate that a Minister would lend to that, especially given that an OECD report in 2008 found that the public sector in this country was very modest in terms of the proportion of gross domestic product taken up by it?

That is a separate question.

I am interested in the chain of command and, in particular, the chain of policy-making.

The Deputy's question refers to the relationship between individual Ministers, Cabinet sub-committees and the Cabinet itself. The programme for Government is the agreed programme between the Fine Gael Party and Labour Party in government. It is the programme that Ministers work towards implementing. There are more than 500 commitments in the programme for Government and it is our intention to implement it in full. I have already explained that in a small number of cases, it has not been possible to implement an issue because of constitutional or legal problems.

Overall policy is set by the Government. The targets for the reduction in our deficit have been set and agreed between the Government and the troika at 7.5% for 2012. The ceilings in respect of spending, within which Ministers will have to live, were agreed by the Government last year. The Cabinet sub-committees work towards objectives set by the Government, allowing for a far greater focus and effectiveness in ensuring those actions are taken. The opportunity to interact on a much more concentrated level with public servants and public sector organisations working with Ministers helps to bring about results.

Last week I presented 20 awards for public service excellence on behalf of the Department of the Taoiseach. These awards related to a range of activities, including achievements in Mountjoy Prison, by the Forensic Science Laboratory, by Naval Service personnel, in the area of education and so on. These were brilliant examples of leadership in the public service by people who not only showed initiative and enterprise in recommending new methods of achievement in the public sector but actually put those methods into practice and, in so doing, demonstrated motivation and team discipline within their separate spheres.

The Cabinet makes decisions about policy. Ministers, working either individually or as a group, may bring single or joint memos to Government from the Cabinet sub-committees at which their work was completed and has been endorsed, for final decision by the Cabinet. In effect, it is a method of focusing and emphasising particular areas of work and to allow Ministers to respond to the Cabinet committees chaired by the Taoiseach. They are able to get that work done and bring those agreed memos to Government for final approval. The Cabinet sets the overall policy, but individual areas are worked upon by Ministers, in accordance with their responsibilities, through the Cabinet sub-committee system.

I advise Members that we have 15 minutes remaining in which to deal with Questions Nos. 24 to 35, inclusive, to be taken together. This group of questions, which relate to the constitutional convention, includes questions by three Deputies who are in the Chamber. The more time we spend on the current group of questions, the less there will be to deal with questions relating to the constitutional convention. I am trying to be helpful in pointing out to Deputy Joe Higgins that his question has been answered.

I have a brief supplementary question. How does what the Taoiseach has just said relate to the actions and activities of individual Ministers? Are Ministers in this Government free to make significant criticism by implication of Government policy?

We cannot discuss that matter. It is an entirely different issue.

Is that not what the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, has done? Does the Taoiseach encourage it?

We are not discussing the Minister, Deputy Varadkar. This issue is not on the Order Paper.

It relates to the workings of Government policy.

It does not relate to Cabinet sub-committees. Will the Deputy co-operate so that we can move on to the next set of questions? He is free to put down a separate question on this issue.

With respect, I have sat here since 3.40 p.m.

The Deputy has one question on this issue. Deputy Micheál Martin had 13 questions and Deputy Gerry Adams had eight, or 21 out of the 24 questions between them. I cannot allow Deputy Higgins to go on indefinitely. In case he has forgotten, his question was to ask the Taoiseach the number of Cabinet committee meetings he has attended since Easter. He has already answered that. We cannot talk about the Minister, Deputy Varadkar.

The other Deputies are playing a game with the Ceann Comhairle. I could put down ten questions along the same lines, but I do not want to waste his time.

It is not my time I am concerned about. I am seeking to protect Members so that they will have reasonable time to address the group of questions on the constitutional convention.

The other Deputies asked the same question in ten different ways.

Anybody could do that.

Does Deputy Adams have a brief supplementary?

Yes. My purpose in telling the Taoiseach my own little tale was to point out that the first hospital to which I went could not deal with me because it did not have the facilities. There are fears that even this service will be cut further. Second, we are advised that €2 billion will be taken out of the budget.

That is a separate issue. I propose that we now move on to the next group of questions.

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