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Third Level Funding

Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 27 June 2012

Wednesday, 27 June 2012

Questions (3)

Stephen Donnelly

Question:

3. Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly asked the Minister for Education and Skills the plans or additional revenue streams, if any, he is pursuing, in order to reverse the current planned cuts to third level education, which over the next four years will amount to a cut of approximately 30% per student in real terms assuming the 6% cut in absolute funding in Budget 2012, 2% inflation per year and 18% more students; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31249/12]

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Oral answers (9 contributions)

The reality of the economic situation and the public expenditure corrections which must be made in the coming years present challenges across all areas of public expenditure, including higher education.

At my request the Higher Education Authority, HEA, completed an initial study late last year on sustainability of the current funding system for higher education. The report outlines the scale of recent reductions in funding and growth in student numbers, and provides some evidence on the possible impacts of this on quality of provision. However, the HEA has emphasised that the report is preliminary only and that substantial additional work now needs to be undertaken before comprehensive proposals as to how we can sustainably fund higher education into the future can be developed. The HEA is continuing its work in this area and further advice is expected later this year.

I look forward to the report. As the Minister is aware, the position is that we are looking at a 30% per student drop in our third level system in the next four years. Last year, the Higher Education Authority, HEA, stated that between 2008 and 2011 there had been an 18% drop. Between 2008 and 2015, therefore, we are looking at approximately a 50% drop in funding per student. That will destroy our third level system.

I spoke to the head of human resources of one of the largest multinational companies in the country and he said that Irish graduates were becoming unemployable. He was talking about the decline in standard in the past ten to 15 years. He said that when the company is hiring at Masters and PhD level in Ireland it no longer advertises the jobs here. He felt that for that company's needs the quality of our Masters and PhD graduates relative to European, United States and Canadian graduates had become so unequal that they do not even advertise the jobs.

Could the Deputy frame a question?

Yes. I know the Minister is aware of this but I put it to him that a 50% drop will wipe out our system for the next ten, 20 or 30 years. Will the Minister consider reintroducing student fees? I know that is a very personal issue for him. The report from the Geary Institute in UCD suggests that measure has not done what I believe the Minister intended it to do, which was to improve the quality of access. My concern is that if we do not reintroduce fees, and it must be backed by zero or low interest long-term loans, as is the model in other countries, our students will be left in nominally free education in institutions that are falling in standards. I do not ask for that easily. It is not a pleasant political message for anybody in this Chamber to send. My concern is that without something like that our students will be left in second rate institutions. Will the Minister conduct a cost benefit analysis of that and perhaps consider introducing fees in one or two institutions to determine how the students, and the institutions, react?

I agree with the Deputy on a number of different levels but I am not satisfied yet that we have got the right economies within the higher level education system. I will give him one example. In the area of the provision of initial teacher education for teachers at primary and secondary level, the state of Singapore has one institution that provides the lot for primary and secondary. We have 22, and there are 43 courses between the five teacher training colleges on the one hand and various colleges that provide different forms of educational qualifications for secondary school teachers. This is a small country. We have invested millions of euro in the roads system and the transportation system, whether it is train or bus. The landscape in the 1970s when the regional technical colleges, RTCs, as they were, were established has shrunk enormously in that time. I want to make sure that as taxpayers we are getting very good value for money from within the existing system. I am not satisfied that we are getting that, but the full report from the HEA will help us to formulate policy.

I remind the Deputy that students at undergraduate level now pay a student contribution. It is not called a fee but it is de facto a fee. This year it will go up by €250 from €2,000 and in the next four years, including this year, it will go from €2,000 to €3,000. That is the contribution, and that is a higher de facto fee than many fee charging colleges. In the Netherlands, for example, there is a €1,700 fee per annum. We have crossed that particular Rubicon. Of the undergraduate students, 42% of them are on a grant of one kind or another that ensures they have the fee paid and also get a maintenance grant.

Regarding the Deputy's observation, the socio-economic spread of participation in higher level education has been transformed, and part of that transformation was due to better outcomes at second level, aspirations among young people to go to college, and the removal of the barrier that was the original fees.

I agree entirely. On the socio-economic strata, the Geary Institute report suggests that the lower socio-economic percentage has remained constant but I defer to the Minister's expertise in the area.

I agree entirely with the Minister. For example, in teacher training, if the figures I have seen are correct, 70% of new hires have come from Hibernia College, which is essentially zero cost to the State-----

-----while we have five teaching schools at enormous cost to the State. They may be doing very good work but that is clearly not the way to proceed. I agree that the first thing to do is find all of these inefficiencies quickly and ruthlessly. Nonetheless, if we take Buffalo University in the United States, which is a mid-ranking US university, its total funding is 30% more than our entire university system. That is what we are competing with. I know this is a difficult issue for the Minister and that promises were made before the election. I know he brought in this measure. I benefited from it as a student, and I appreciate that, but I ask the Minister to re-examine it with the back-stop of zero or very low interest loans that only kick in through when the graduate salary hits a certain amount.

When we get the HEA second report, which is due this year, we should have a debate on it either in the committee or the House.

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