Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 9 October 2012
8. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the progress he has made with the commitment in the Programme for Government on the abolition of Seanad Éireann; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [38806/12]
View answer9. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if the Government is reviewing any political reforms other than those being discussed at the constitutional convention; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [40099/12]
View answer10. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the scheduling of constitutional referendums. [40264/12]
View answer11. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach his plans to abolish Seanad Éireann. [40453/12]
View answerI propose to answer Questions Nos. 8 to 11, inclusive, together.
Work is proceeding on the preparation of proposals for a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad. The proposal to abolish the Seanad was signalled by the Government parties prior to the general election and the Dáil and Seanad will have an opportunity to debate fully the necessary legislation when it is published.
As to its timing, I have already made clear that the Government's current focus is on the referendum on children's rights on 10 November and that the Seanad referendum will not be held during Ireland's EU Presidency next year. With regard to constitutional reforms other than those to be considered by the constitutional convention, as Members will be aware, the referendum on children's rights will take place on Saturday, 10 November 2012. Work is proceeding in the relevant Departments on other programme for Government commitments for constitutional reform.
Members will recall that in July, the Minister for Justice and Equality announced that the Government had approved in principle proposals for a number of major reforms to our court structures and that consideration would be given to other changes to Article 26 and Article 34 of the Constitution. The work to be undertaken would also consider the constitutional change required to enable the State to participate in any arrangement providing for the establishment of a European Patent Court. A decision on when to hold the necessary referendum will be made at a later date.
The Taoiseach has committed to a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad. What does he mean by the term, "work in progress"? I asked the Taoiseach on a previous occasion if he would share the work in progress with other Members. This is a very reasonable request in my view. I ask him again to publish all the background material related to the issue of abolition of the Seanad. This would allow Members and other parties to prepare to inform themselves on the issue. It would at least facilitate the general political discussion on the issue of a second House. There has not been an informed discussion because none of the material on the work undertaken by the Government with regard to abolition of the Seanad has been published.
The Taoiseach stated in his reply that the referendum will not be held before next June. Given his privileged knowledge of the work in progress on the abolition of the Seanad, will he indicate to the House whether he envisages a referendum in the latter half of 2013 or the first half of 2014? Will he confirm one or the other times?
We have not made a decision but I envisage that it will be held in the latter half of 2013. I say that because this is a question that will be put to the people. The Irish EU Presidency runs from 1 January to the end of June 2013. The Ministers will be attending Presidency meetings during that period and I do not think it would be practical to divert the attention of the Oireachtas for three or four weeks on the issue of any referendum. The constitutional convention will have made a number of recommendations in the meantime.
Will the Taoiseach publish the material?
Yes, I will publish the material but I am not ready to do so yet for the simple reason that articles of the Constitution require to be amended which contain a reference to the Seanad and it must be provided that there are no unintended consequences of such amendment. For instance, the Seanad has a role in triggering the process for determining whether a Bill constitutes a money Bill, and motions for earlier signature. In due course I will publish the material and make the Opposition leaders well aware of it.
There will be more than ample time to have a thorough discussion when the referendum Bill is published. I am aware of reports and comments indicating very different views on the question of the abolition of the Seanad from what we were hearing some years ago. However, the situation is clearly outlined in the programme for Government. I will publish the material when it is finalised and I expect the referendum to be held in the latter half of 2013.
My question does not relate to the material setting out the arguments for and against abolition, but to the Government's preparatory work in respect of its proposal. I assume a significant amount of work has been undertaken at this stage by civil servants and others.
Yes.
Publication of that material would serve the public interest by facilitating a more reflective debate on the issues. People are already introducing their own proposals and ideas. For instance, a group of Senators, former Senators and others recently published a reform document which advocated legislation to reform the Seanad. It would be useful if the work the Government has undertaken in regard to this proposal were published, without any commentary one way or the other, so that others can work on and draw their own conclusions from it.
In regard to other proposed referendums, the Taoiseach is now formally indicating that the announcement by the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, may lead to several constitutional amendments. Again, it would be helpful if the Minister made the material available to the House in a timely fashion. He will find us co-operative on a number of these issues. Given the Tánaiste's comment that it is the defining civil rights issue of this generation, does the Taoiseach expect a referendum during the lifetime of this Government on the issue of marriage equality?
I do not intend to publish the documentation relating to the abolition of the Seanad until I am satisfied that it is all in place. That process is not yet complete, although a great deal of work has been done in the background. As the Deputy is aware, there are a significant number of references to the Seanad and its constitutional position in the Constitution. It is not a case of drawing up a Bill and putting a simple question to the people. It is a much more complex process.
In regard to other referendums, negotiations on a unified patent court for the European Union have concluded, except for the decision on headquarters locations. This is an issue that has implications economically for companies located in this country which are involved in innovation and research in respect of which patents may be sought. A simple amendment to the Constitution is required. There is also a proposal on court structures. The question of whether there will be a referendum on marriage equality for gays and lesbians is a matter for deliberation by the constitutional convention. The Government will respond to the convention's recommendation in this regard within four months. A referendum on this question is certainly feasible within the lifetime of this Government, but I will not confirm it now.
Is it the Taoiseach's objective that such a referendum will take place?
As I said, the matter will be considered by the convention and the Government will respond to its recommendation in that regard. Everything is feasible in politics, including this.
It is a matter of puzzlement that issues such as the presidential term and the voting age have been designated as matters for consideration by the constitutional convention but the future of the Seanad has not. I do not understand how we can pick and choose between these issues.
I have explained that.
The Seanad is clearly in need of reform. It is an undemocratic institution which is elected by an elite rather than by universal franchise. Sinn Féin has been saying that for a long time. Substantial reform is required to democratise the Upper House by, for example, making it a place where ethnic minorities such as the Traveller community could be represented, or citizens from the North, thus ensuring it offers a better balance to this Chamber. The Taoiseach gave an undertaking to Deputy Micheál Martin that he will publish the Government's preparatory material on this matter. He has not, however, indicated when that will be done.
I presume there will be some manner of consultation process with the Opposition parties on this issue. Will he indicate what form that will take?
The Taoiseach is a recent convert to the abolition of the Seanad. Some of us have expressed the view for decades that it is thoroughly undemocratic and a rotten elitist borough which should go. Is the Taoiseach aware of the suspicion that nothing tangible has been done in this regard in a year and a half because he is under pressure from many members of his own party and of the Labour Party who fear being dumped overboard in the next general election and want a political lifeboat to hand to pluck them from the waters?
I allowed the Deputy a supplementary question; he should stick to the matter we are discussing.
We have no fears about Deputy Higgins's party.
Deputy Higgins might well have needed that lifeboat himself in 2007.
Is the Taoiseach aware of that suspicion and can he confirm it?
The Labour Party is the oldest party in the country and a strong and vibrant organisation.
The Taoiseach will knock that out of them. Big Phil and Dr. Reilly will help him.
Deputy Higgins has said of his own decrepit outfit that it is faoi lán seoil, or something like that.
On the question of the future of the Seanad, the position was made very clear before the general election by both parties. It is a central part of the reform agenda in the programme for Government and will be put to the people, as I said to Deputy Martin, hopefully before the end of 2013. I have read all the comments from people, some of whom served in the Seanad themselves, who seem now to be taking a different view on the matter. I will publish the material when it is all together and when I think it is appropriate. We have overseen four referendums in the space of 12 months, with the next one taking place on 10 November and others to follow. This period of government will see more referendums put to the people than in the lifetime of many previous Governments. It is about having an effective, clear strategy and allowing the convention to be effective in doing its work. The Government will stick to its word: it will respond to the recommendations of the convention within a four-month period and put a proposal to the people in due course in a way that allows them to digest the range of information, understand what they are being asked to decide and give their verdict accordingly.
