Barry Cowen
Question:59. Deputy Barry Cowen asked the Minister for Education and Skills his views on the Croke Park Agreement and the protection of teachers' pay; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43059/12]
View answerTuesday, 9 October 2012
Questions (59)
Oral answers (9 contributions)
As the Deputy will be aware, the Croke Park agreement was negotiated by the previous Government and this Government has consistently indicated that it will continue to abide by its terms.
This agreement has to be seen in its proper context. In fairness to all involved, both unions and successive Governments, it has delivered industrial peace following from the introduction of the pension levy and the subsequent pay cut. Importantly, it has and continues to have real benefits for productivity and change in the way public services are delivered.
I have always maintained that the public service as a whole needs to maximise the benefits of this agreement and to be unremitting in pursuing necessary changes.
The Minister created a serious issue here with the stance taken by him whereby new entrants to the teaching profession are on a radically reduced salary from that of those entering only a year previously. The starting salary has gone from €39,000 a couple of years ago to €31,000 now.
This is a matter I raised with the Minister in a Topical Issue debate the first week back after the summer recess. In response to my question on how he would manage teaching staff where new entrants were on a radically reduced salary from that of teachers who are teaching next door, the Minister outlined that he inherited the Croke Park agreement and his information was that he could not address salaries or allowances at this point in time. Also in response to me, the Minister outlined that he wanted to negotiate a new agreement and that the discrepancy between new teachers' salaries and existing teachers' salaries was something he would want to address at that stage and in that agreement. In my reading of it, that can only mean the Minister intends to revise downward overall teachers' salaries to come in line with the reduced rate he introduced for young teachers. Is that what he meant? Is that his intention?
Social partnership and the kind of structured agreements that we have had have by and large been good for this country over many years. They were abused and misused in the latter days of the Celtic tiger madness but as a principal way of doing business in a mixed economy like ours, it is a better way to go than the adversarial way which characterised industrial relations in the past.
There is much productivity that can be got out of the system. There is potential, particularly in the third level sector, to achieve enormous synergies, some of which we cannot even fully measure at present because we do not have direct access to some of the information.
I would like to see a successor agreement to the current Croke Park one. I have said that before; I am saying it again. As I stated earlier in answer to a question put by Deputy Catherine Murphy, issues have arisen because we were not able to cut the existing pay without breaking people's terms and conditions, and the spirit of the Croke Park agreement. All we could do was to lower the entry grade for newcomers to the system, as has happened right across the private sector as well.
Frankly, I would be surprised, in the context of discussions on a new agreement, if these issues were not put on the table by the parties to the agreement. I am not going to prejudge what those parties might want to say, how they might say it or where we will finish up at the end of the day. Certainly, it is in that context that I see the issue being addressed. Whether it will be addressed upwards or downwards is a matter for discussion in the negotiations, on the outcome of which I will not comment.
The reduction in salaries for young teachers is very unprofessional and not the way to go. In recent days I have talked to many young teachers and, to my surprise, their concern is not salaries but jobs. They are looking for jobs, which is their focus. One top-class, qualified teacher to whom I spoke had only worked for three days in the last six months. I would like the Minister for Education and Skills to focus on this issue above others. In the current economic climate there seems to be an anti-public service mood, with rants against teachers, HSE workers, special needs assistants, home helps and so forth. It seems people want to cut, slash, burn and destroy others. They are using phrases such as "productivity", but there are many in the public service, teachers in particular, who have increased their productivity but are getting no recognition for it. I ask the Minister to comment on this.
I agree with the Deputy that in the post-primary education sector, in particular, the nature and quality of employment for teachers who teach a range of subjects, as distinct from primary school teachers who are teaching young children and more holistic in their overall educational approach, are problematic. The nature of the contractual relationship between the employer bodies and secondary teachers is not satisfactory. It results in people who may have been in college for four years obtaining a primary degree followed by a further one or two years obtaining a higher diploma and are well into their twenties only finding part-time work, with very few hours. This is an issue which concerns me and I will be raising it in due course.
On the denigration of the public service, it has been my experience that those who make such casual comments are often the first to scream if they do not see a fire brigade or an ambulance within minutes of an emergency occurring or if there is a difficulty for an elderly relative and they cannot get him or her into a nursing home. It is not that they are doing it deliberately, but they are aided and abetted by some commentators in some of the newspapers, some of whom sit close to Deputy Finian McGrath on occasion.
I do not know to whom the Minister is referring.
Everyone in the House would agree on the importance of ensuring some of our top graduates continue to enter the teaching profession. However, statistics are available which show that even as things stood before the starting salary was reduced, students with certain levels of qualifications entering the teaching profession were starting on a salary which was lower than for those entering other industries with similar qualifications. I ask the Minister to confirm that what he is saying to new entrants whose salaries were cut is that he will consider potential increases as part of any new agreement.
I am concerned by the answer the Minister gave to Deputy Catherine Murphy when she asked if, in his opinion, the changes made to teachers' pay would impact on the quality of teachers entering the profession. His reply was not acceptable because he said his feeling was that it would not. I am wondering what analysis and assessments have been undertaken by the Department. The Minister has said he does not make up policy on the hoof. I certainly hope he does not make up policy based on feelings. I would like something more concrete than his feeling that the quality of teachers entering the profession will not be affected by the reductions in pay.
If there is a successor agreement, the lead person will, undoubtedly, be my colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, because any agreement will involve more than just the education sector. I cannot anticipate or predict what shape or form it is likely to take. The only thing about which I am hopeful - I encourage all involved - is that there will be such an agreement to negotiate our way towards something that will meet the requirements of everybody in our society and address the economic reality in which we find ourselves. Deputy Johnathan O'Brien asked me a specific statistical question and I will arrange for the answer to be provided for him. I want to ensure the education system in the Republic continues to attract high quality young people from the secondary school system into the teacher training colleges of education because time and again all of the international evidence confirms that good teachers produce good educational outcomes, more than any other single factor. That is the dominant factor in delivering the quality in education that we need to ensure we continue to attract quality students.