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Overseas Missions

Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 14 March 2013

Thursday, 14 March 2013

Questions (6, 7, 8, 18, 21)

Micheál Martin

Question:

6. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Minister for Defence if he will report on the Defence Forces mission in Mali; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13265/13]

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Mick Wallace

Question:

7. Deputy Mick Wallace asked the Minister for Defence if he will provide an update on the participation of Irish troops in the EU training mission in Mali; the cost of deploying Irish troops to Mali; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13274/13]

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Clare Daly

Question:

8. Deputy Clare Daly asked the Minister for Defence the position regarding Irish Defence Forces personnel being deployed to Mali. [13277/13]

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John Browne

Question:

18. Deputy John Browne asked the Minister for Defence if he will provide an update in the Defence Forces' mission to Mali; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13242/13]

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Thomas P. Broughan

Question:

21. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan asked the Minister for Defence if he will provide an update on the deployment of a number of Irish troops in a joint mission with the British Army personnel on a 500 strong EU military training mission to Mali; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13152/13]

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Oral answers (36 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 to 8, inclusive, 18 and 21 together.

On 26 February 2013, the Government approved the deployment of approximately eight members of the Permanent Defence Force to the EU training mission in Mali, which has been authorised by the United Nations under UN Security Council Resolution 2071 (2012), to provide military training to the Malian armed forces.

The Irish personnel to be deployed in Mali have completed their pre-deployment training. The exact date of the Irish deployment to Mali is yet to be confirmed. However, we expect this date to be confirmed by the European Union on 15 March 2013. It is expected that Irish personnel will deploy into the mission area around 23 March 2013.

The Irish contribution to the mission will comprise three officers and five non-commissioned officers. One officer will deploy to the mission headquarters in Bamako and another to the training camp headquarters. The remaining six personnel who constitute the Defence Forces training team will also deploy to the training camp in Koulikoro and will form part of a joint infantry training team with the United Kingdom armed forces.

All troop contributors to the new mission will be responsible for their own costs. The estimated cost to the Defence Force of eight personnel will amount to approximately €632,000 for the duration of the mission’s mandate of 15 months. This figure includes Ireland’s contribution of €120,000 to the common costs of the mission.

I will be brief as I know other Members want to comment on this issue. I assume all Members in this House are proud of the role our Defence Forces have played in a number of international fora around the world but I know also there is a degree of unease in the country about this particular mission. For that reason I support Deputy Mac Lochlainn's proposal that while it is not necessary to get the approval of the House for this mission to be undertaken because the members are fewer than 12, it might be useful to have a debate on it when the House resumes following the Easter recess. It need not be a lengthy debate. The Minister of State might raise with the Minister, Deputy Shatter, the question of finding time to discuss people's genuine concerns about the allegations in the public domain regarding the Malian forces, and in particular the way they have dealt with the Arab and Tuareg families with whom they have come into contact. However, I am sure the Irish mission in Mali will be a positive and constructive one and that the influence of Irish officers on the men and women in the Malian army will be positive.

I reiterate that we are in the country on a United Nations mission. The personnel will not be involved in combat operations. The mission will consist of 250 instructors and approximately 200 additional military personnel to provide support and security. The role of personnel deployed to the mission will be to provide military training to the armed forces, as well as training and advice on command and control logistics, human resources, international humanitarian law, and the protection of civilians and human rights.

The other important impact of the EU involvement, and Ireland's involvement, is significant progress on the political aspects of the crisis. The EU's collective focus has been on ensuring that the Malian leaders adopt a political transition roadmap, and that has been successfully delivered. This roadmap sets out a time line towards free and fair elections in July. It sets an immediate path for the return to full civilian government, without the involvement of the military, and gives a commitment to reform of the armed forces. The Malian Government is also committed to the important objective of a national and inclusive dialogue to ensure that the legitimate interests and concerns of minorities such as those Deputy Ó Fearghaíl mentioned, notably, the Tuareg communities in the north, are addressed.

I, too, have serious reservations about any of our Army personnel being deployed in Mali. Time will prove that we might not be proud of our involvement in the country. I would be wary because as the Minister of State said, the current group in charge, which came to power by a military coup, has not behaved very well, as pointed out by the other Deputies. The leader of that group, who was trained in human rights in the United States, recently arrested the editor of a Malian newspaper for criticising the amount of money he was getting.

There are question marks over our support for the French on this mission. The French would not be going into this country if there was not some material gain for them. We all know that uranium is in great supply in Mali. France has done very well from exploiting the region, and it would be keen to keep those channels open. This is not what we should be doing.

The Minister said that democracy will be restored in the summer but restored to what? There was no democracy before the coup when the Tuaregs in the north were being persecuted. I would be surprised if we are impressed with the outcome of the elections in the summer.

The key issue is that this country is in serious strife. There has been a coup d'état and human rights abuses on both sides. We have a United Nations resolution that we should try to help resolve that matter. We have a commitment from the existing Government in Mali to have free and fair elections. It is worthwhile being involved in that, and I am proud of Ireland's involvement in support of that mission. None of our troops will be combatants, but they will be training and working to ensure that issues relating to international law and the laws relating to armed conflict are fully recognised. I have no doubt that the United Nations will also ensure that whatever international jurisprudence can apply in terms of bringing anybody who violates human rights before the International Criminal Court or any other court, will apply. However, it would be wrong for this country not to bring about peace in a land where there is so much trouble and so many refugees.

The problem is that they will not be bringing peace to the country because wars such as the one in Mali have never built a solid and democratic state. On the contrary, they have served to fuel separatism, failed states, armed militia and lawlessness. It is ironic that the Minister has leaned on the United Nations resolution a number of times to support Ireland's involvement.

One of the reasons the situation in Mali developed is the United Nations resolution on Libya which was supposedly designed to protect civilians. It was used and abused by NATO to take sides in a civil war which has now spilled over into and had consequences for Mali. Libya is now in turmoil. It has imploded. The Tuaregs who served in Gadaffi's army took their weapons to northern Mali to take on a corrupt army. After they left, the Islamic militants moved in. Behind this instability is the quest for resources including uranium. It is another scramble for Africa. The EU is taking sides in a civil war and is taking part in a scramble for resources in Africa.

The sending by Ireland of small numbers of Defence Forces members to these countries is becoming a habit. We saw it in Afghanistan, Somalia and Chad. If fewer than 12 members go, there is no requirement to have a discussion in the Dáil. I ask the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, to convey to the Minister our desire to have debates on these issues. The Government cannot evade the triple lock by sending fewer than 12 people. These are serious issues with serious consequences. The Minister of State said that this escapade is to cost us more than €500,000, moneys which would be far better spent on other causes. I guarantee it will not bring peace to that region.

There is no meeting of minds here. The strong view of the Government is that this is an international peace mission. It is creating peace and free and fair elections. It is concentrated on ensuring there is a democratic government in that country and that all minorities are included in whatever government is elected. That is our job and I am very proud of it. I cannot accept that Deputy Daly's arguments hold any water. Our intervention and the intervention of the United Nations is about lives being saved, human rights violators being brought to justice and a new democratic regime whereby every citizen has a vote. It is about making sure there is a safe, peaceful, democratic government in that country. Anything less than that would lead to increasing strife, civil war and other abuses.

I would be all for saving lives too if we could. The Minister of State knows that after the intervention in Libya the number of citizens who lost their lives went from 2,000 to 30,000. The Minister might say that was worth it to get Gadaffi but I disagree with 28,000 lives for one life. They went into Afghanistan saying they would civilise it and deal with opium but look at the state of it now. We must read our history. If we look at the past ten years alone, we can see what has resulted from western intervention in other states. It has been a disaster.

Speakers have brought up Libya. It is clear to everybody that Colonel Gadaffi's government supported the Lockerbie bombers. We know what abuses happened there.

Look at the country now.

It cannot legitimately be argued that bringing a country to peace and democracy is not a good thing.

What democracy? It is not there.

One cannot support the type of regime operated by Colonel Gadaffi and people like him and the crimes they commit.

Are you in favour of regime change?

Deputy Mac Lochlainn should have indicated a question.

On a point of order, are you in favour of regime change?

Deputy, could you ask a question?

Just to be clear, Minister, are you saying you are in favour of regime change?

I am saying that Colonel Gadaffi-----

Are you saying that regime change is a policy of the Government?

Let us be clear.

Let us be clear about this now.

Final answer, Minister.

Let us be very clear, Deputy. You brought up Colonel Gadaffi, I did not.

I brought up Libya, the country of millions of citizens.

Libya with Colonel Gadaffi. The facts are that the IRA semtex explosives came from Colonel Gadaffi.

Yes. What is your Government's foreign affairs policy?

You and people belonging to you know all about that.

They should have sent another Minister here today.

And that is it.

We need another Minister. What is your Government's policy on regime change?

We have to move on to Question No. 9 in the name of Deputy Jonathan O'Brien. It is taken with other questions.

Those comments will have to be answered. Outrageous statements.

You are outrageous.

Outrageous statements on regime change which defy Ireland's historical policy on neutrality.

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