Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 29 June 2016
7. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government if he has instructed Irish Water to discontinue with the installation of water meters; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18477/16]
View answer17. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government if he discussed with Irish Water whether they plan to continue with the installation of water meters; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18468/16]
View answerThe Minister has effectively been forced to suspend water charges. Will he take the logical next step and suspend water metering also? Will he instruct Irish Water to do so or will it be like a bad B movie?
I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 17 together.
Since 1 January 2014 Irish Water has statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services planning, delivery and operation at national, regional and local level. This includes the domestic water metering programme. Irish Water's revenue shortfall arising from the proposed suspension of domestic water charges in 2016 is under consideration.
I intend to bring my proposals on this matter to the Government shortly. The future of the metering programme and its associated costs will be part of these deliberations and particular account will have to be taken of the very significant benefits in terms of conservation, leakage detection and the efficiencies in the management of the water network more generally, which the programme has delivered. If Deputies have any queries on specific issues with respect to water services, there is a dedicated team within Irish Water which can respond to those.
My view on this is clear. There is a contract in place to finish phase 1 of the roll-out of the metering programme. My belief is that this should be finished out. The charging we have seen in recent years, which I accept has been controversial, has shown that many people have changed their behaviour as a result of that. In fact, approximately 40% of people were paying charges at below the cap because they were using their meter; they were conserving water in a way that meters were designed to encourage. It has also been useful in detecting leaks. I accept that many of the leaks in the Irish Water infrastructure does not happen between the meter and household dwelling but a percentage of it does and there has been significant detection of leaks as a result of meters.
My view is that we should continue to roll out the metering programme. I believe people will see sense to metering in the medium term. It makes sense to understand how much water is being used, where it is going, where the leaks are and so on. Certainly the evidence to date shows that when people have meters and are paying for water linked to the amount of water they use, that they use those meters, change their behaviour and use less, and thereby conserve more, which is a good development.
I do not imagine the Minister has ever been at a community based anti-water meter protest. Therefore, I will give him some flavour of what it is like. It is a community event. It is not like a bill coming into one's letterbox, it is like Irish Water crews coming into one's community. Discussion starts in the community and members of it begin to get organised. Cars are driven around scouting for the Irish Water meter vans. People are watching and waiting; they are texting and going on Facebook. Women in particular come out and organise. They go door to door and get other women and neighbours to come out and join the protest.
I have sat here listening to the Minister several times in recent weeks say that with the new water commission he wants to take the heat out of the water charges issue. Carrying on with water metering is precisely how he will not do that. How does he square the contradiction between those two?
I call the Minister.
Acting Chairman-----
I will let Deputy Paul Murphy in next. As the time allocation for these two questions is doubled, the Deputy will have ample time.
Does that mean I will have four interjections? Is that how this works?
I will give the Deputy the time; there will be plenty time for interaction.
I do not mind allowing the two Opposition Deputies put their questions and I can respond to the two of them.
We can proceed that way if the Minister wishes. I call Deputy Paul Murphy to make his case.
I thank the Minister for that. Last week we had a debate that concluded yesterday in regard to the Water Services Bill and I made a definite point of saying clearly to the Minister that if the Government does not stop the water metering programme, it will be stopped by protesters and heat will not be taken out of the issue but rather it will become more hot. Yesterday, as if to test that hypothesis, Irish Water workers appeared in Carrigmore in my constituency where they were immediately met by residents. Tens upon tens of residents came out to stop them and they stayed there all day peacefully protesting to ensure that no meters were installed. I can assure the Minister that people do not see the sense of water metering because they know that the purpose of it is to prepare for the imposition of water charges and for privatisation. Therefore, water meters will not be accepted. Surely the Minister can see that the project has to be halted. Is he going to continue to have huge numbers of Garda resources imposed on communities to get the water meters installed in the remaining areas, which are the ones where there is the strongest opposition to water meters? Are more people going to go to prison in opposition to water meters even though the water charges have been suspended?
To put this into context, approximately 840,000 water meters have been installed and many people do not have a problem with that. The Deputy talks about this issue as if every person in the country is trying to block water meters being installed in respect of their own water systems, but that is not the case. Some people have real objections to this but many people do not. Many people have been using water meters to manage how they use water and to conserve it. We know that because 40% of people, which is way beyond what most people were expecting, were paying water charges at below the cap. We cannot operate as a Government on the basis of people threatening protests and therefore we must not do anything.
With regard to the metering programme, we are concluding phase 1 of the metering roll-out, which will be finished in the next few months-----
It will not.
-----or in the next six months or so, that is my understanding. I can stand corrected on that. It is pretty close to being concluded. Phase 2 of the metering roll-out was always going to be more complicated because it involved flat complexes and so on, which is more complicated in terms of metering. My view is that we have a very significant number of water meters in the ground. They have served a useful function and they will do so in the future also.
Thank you, Minister.
I am answering the questions put by two Deputies.
I will allow the Minister back in; we have ample time. I must allow Deputy Paul Murphy back in and then I will come back to the Minister. I will bring in both Deputies Paul Murphy and Deputy Barry and Deputy Paul Murphy has a minute if he wishes to come back in.
Yes. I would say to the Minister that phase 1 will not be concluded. He is now approaching the areas where there are big communities who are opposed to the imposition of water meters who will simply not accept them. The Government will have to make a choice, and Irish Water will make a choice, as to whether it will push ahead against the opposition of these communities even when it has suspended water charges. It would be madness for the Government to do so.
The talk of conservation is a cover. Water meters are not about conservation, they are about charging for water and about pushing privatisation in the future and privatisation over the revenue stream. According to Irish Water figures, extrapolating them to the full imposition of water meters, we are talking about 3% of water being saved, that is, 3% out of 41% of water that is lost. That is where we need investment in our water infrastructure and that is also where Deputy Coveney, as the Minister with responsibility for housing, needs to change the building regulations in terms of grey water harvesting, rainwater harvesting and dual flush toilets being mandatory for the new builds that are taking place. That is where it would make a difference in terms of water conservation.
The Minister spoke about the number of meters that have been installed. The Irish Water target is for somewhere between 1 million and 1.1 million. Irish Water has said that approximately 850,000 have been installed so far. The bulk of the areas where the meters have yet to be installed are the working class communities where people have organised to resist their installation, areas such as Tallaght, the north east of Dublin and in Cork city areas such as Churchfield, Gurranabraher, Knocknaheeny and Ballyphehane whose communities have successfully kept the Irish Water meter installers out. Does the Minister seriously believe that he can calm things down on the issue of water charges and try to send the water metering crews into these areas over the next few weeks and months? I suggest he is sadly mistaken if he thinks he will be able to do that.
I wish to point out to Members in case there is any confusion that I am going strictly by the rules of the House, as agreed by all Members. Where two similar questions are taken together the time allocated is doubled to make sure there is fair play for all involved and that the Minister is also given adequate time. I am going strictly by the rules of the House, in case some Members might think I am not doing that.
The question is whether I am going to instruct Irish Water to discontinue the installation of water meters and the answer to that question is "No". I expect there will be a pragmatic response from Irish Water where there is significant resistance. I think that in time many people, who do not have water meters now, will want them.
Does the Minister mean that they will back off?
Deputy Barry, allow the Minister to respond.
I think he is saying that they are going to back off.
Allow the Minister to respond.
The Deputy wants heat in this issue because he has built a whole political campaign around it. He wants to keep people and communities divided.
They want to try to keep-----
The Minister is dividing people.
The Deputies do not like to hear it because it is the truth. This is what they have built their political campaigns and careers around: division, anger and protest.
It is what the Minister's career is going to falter on.
Deputies Barry and Murphy have a minute left each. If they allow the Minister to finish, I will allow both of them in.
When I answer questions honestly, I get threats, just as when we had questions on waste charges. When we were trying to resolve those issues, Deputy Paul Murphy's sole contribution was, "When you come to Tallaght, there will be protestors waiting for you."
And there were and the Minister backed off.
That had nothing to do with the solutions. The Deputy does not offer solutions. He wants to make people angry so that they will be divided and create political opportunity for him. I am in the business of trying to provide solutions-----
No solutions.
-----and there are others in the House who are doing the same.
I thank the Minister.
I will finish because I have been interrupted.
The Minister will have another minute.
Water meters play an important role and will continue to play an important role in terms of water policy in Ireland regardless of the charging system which may or may not be voted for in the House in nine months' time. That is why Irish Water will finalise the phase 1 roll-out of the metering programme where possible.
I note with interest the comment of the Minister that he expects Irish Water to take what he describes as a pragmatic approach. In reality, he is saying that Irish Water is likely to back off where there is strong community resistance to the installation of water meters. I hope all the activists and campaigners in those communities listen carefully to the point the Minister has made, draw the appropriate conclusions and redouble their efforts to stop his and Irish Water's metering programme.
On the issue of anger, I am a reasonably calm and relaxed individual and the anger I have seen stirred up in Gurranebraher, Churchfield, Knocknaheeny and the other communities was stirred up by the Minister and his Government who tried to impose an unjust charge and ram it down people's throats.
To continue with that point, what has divided people and angered them has been that by December of last year, 188 people had been arrested at water protests. The majority of them were involved in protesting against water meters in their communities. Just three or four weeks ago, three people were in jail for protesting against water meters. Just last week, two people were up in Tallaght District Court for protesting against water meters.
It is not that simple.
When the Government is imposing water meters on communities that do not want them and using the force of the law to try to ram them in, it is going to divide people. I encourage people to heed the message that if there is resistance, the water meters will be stopped. That is the lesson. The solutions here have come from people organising to resist. The reason there is suspension of water charges is not because any of the Government members had a change of heart or Fianna Fáil had a change of heart but because of a protest movement that built pressure. The reason there was a partial step back in terms of bin charges was again because people protested. Protesting and organising achieve change. We are offering the Minister a solution here, which is to stop the water metering.
It is the same question, or rather statement, over and over again. It is important to say that people are not put in prison for peaceful protest.
They are. It is in the Water Services Act.
The Deputy has had his time. Please allow the Minister to finish.
I have answered the question repeatedly. My view is that meters have a value and that many households are using them effectively. Some communities referred to by Deputies have resisted the imposition of water meters and feel very strongly on the issue. I accept that and I do not pretend that is not the case. My point is that the roll-out of meters as envisaged by Irish Water is a significant and important addition to our water infrastructure in terms of understanding how water is being used and in terms of changing behaviour in a way that encourages conservation. From that point of view, it is a positive thing and it should continue.
