Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 29 November 2017
31. Deputy John Brady asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection if her attention has been drawn to difficulties retained firefighters are having with INTREO and JobPath; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [50794/17]
View answerI want to ask the Minister about the level of engagement expected by her Department for retained firefighters and job activation, in particular JobPath.
There are retained firefighters in my neck of the woods, which is not usual for people who live in cities. I am well aware that retained firefighters provide services which are vital to the communities they serve. They are very well respected. We may engage in a cat-and-mouse exchange. I am not aware of any specific difficulties with retained firefighters with regard to INTREO or JobPath.
Retained firefighters who are otherwise unemployed are entitled to a jobseeker's payment in respect of the days that they are engaged in firefighting and-or training, subject to the usual qualification conditions pertaining to means or social insurance contributions. They are also required to satisfy the statutory conditions to receive jobseeker's payments of being available for the days they are not training or on call and genuinely seeking full-time work.
Taking into account the unusual circumstances of retained fire personnel, the Social Welfare and Pensions (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2013 included amendments to jobseeker's benefit and allowance which put the treatment of retained firefighters on a legislative basis. We did not make individual exceptions for them; the rules are now on a statutory footing. The amendments were introduced with particular regard to the vital service provided by these men and women, in particular in rural communities where, as I said, fire safety is exclusively provided by retained firefighters.
The legislation now provides that when a retained firefighter is on call, this does not result in the disallowance of a jobseeker's payment on the grounds of being available for work because he or she is available. However, all retained firefighters in receipt of a jobseeker's payment must engage with the Department's various activation units, including those delivered by the Deputy's favourite organisation, JobPath. During the course of the engagement between the case officer and the jobseeker, all possible pro-employment incentives are explored and discussed with jobseekers. Retained firefighters referred to activation services have every opportunity during the course of those meetings with their personal advisor to schedule around their firefighting, training and on-call duties. I can guarantee that the case officer should be as flexible as he or she possibly can and need to be in regard to dealing retained firefighters.
Activation is intended to be a positive experience. If the Deputy is aware of any difficulties I would be very grateful if he told me about them.
I thank the Minister for the response. A recent reply from the Department to a parliamentary question stated that 482 retained firefighters are in receipt of jobseeker's payment. That shows the difficulty retained firefighters have in holding down full-time employment due to the nature of their work. The legislation introduced to reflect that in 2013 states that the legislation and associated regulations allow retained firefighters a reasonable and fair level of access to jobseeker's schemes, given the unique circumstances of the service they provide to communities.
I have met retained firefighters in rural areas who do not have access to employment or flexible employers, given the nature of their retained services. Retained firefighters in many areas are on call 24-7. They are engaging with case officers in INTREO offices and are being put under severe pressure to find employment, no matter where it is, or be moved to JobPath which, they are told, will get them jobs.
Has provision been made for the special circumstance of retained firefighters by INTREO offices and JobPath? Are their unique employment circumstances taken into account?
As I said in my initial reply, the legislation was changed in 2013 to reflect the special status of firefighters, which carries through to all of the activation measures in which we engage. As I said, they are in the main a positive experience which result in people who are unemployed getting work or people who are under-employed getting more work.
Those working in any of our activation processes in INTREO, JobPath, jobs clubs, JobsPlus or any other organisation which fulfils contracts for the Department are well aware of the conditions under which firefighters have to work and work around them. I am not sure whether the Deputy is suggesting that we should treat retained firefighting as a full-time job and not help firefighters to get more employment. Is he suggesting that they are working 24 hours a day, seven days a week and, therefore, are not available?
If either of those things happen, retained firefighters do not satisfy the conditions of jobseeker's benefit or allowance. A large number of the 482 retained firefighters to whom the Deputy referred rely on jobseeker's benefit or allowance. Therefore, they need to satisfy the conditions in order to avail of those payments, exclusive of any activation programmes.
I thank the Minister. I do not think she is getting the point I am making. The legislation introduced in 2013 dealt with the specific circumstances around the employment of retained firefighters who are on call 24-7. That does not mean that they are dealing with emergency situations every day of the week. They may get a call once a week or, in certain circumstances, every six months. They do not know what will happen from one week to the next.
I will cite a specific local case, which is replicated across the State. I met retained firefighters in Dunlavin in my constituency of Wicklow, half of whom are in receipt of a jobseeker's payment. They have been dealing with case officers for up to 12 months. As they reach the end of the process, they are coming under pressure from case officers to take a job anywhere or they will be moved on to JobPath and that service will find a job for them. No consideration is given to the nature of their employment as retained firefighters and the requirement to be able to reach their local fire station from home or work within five minutes of a call-out.
I ask the Minister to respond.
It is not possible for retained firefighters in Dunlavin to take a job in Carlow or Baltinglass because they must work in the local area. There are no places available on the community employment scheme in the town. Two retained firefighters are on the scheme and there are no other employment opportunities locally. They are being forced to take employment in neighbouring counties, which places their jobs in the retained fire service in jeopardy.
Deputies must show regard for the clock. Business started late because we did not have a quorum. We are running late.
I am always being given out to for speaking too quickly. I decided to speak slowly today but perhaps I will speed up.
The issue the Deputy raises is genuinely not in contention. We return to the fact that one of the conditions of jobseeker's benefit and jobseeker's allowance is that the recipient must be available for work. A special condition was inserted in the legislation to recognise that retained firefighters are not always available for work. In all of the activation programmes, whether community employment, the Tús scheme, the rural social scheme, jobs clubs, JobPath or the Intreo services, there is a recognition that retained firefighters are not available for work on the days they are on call or in training. However, we cannot discount the days on which they are not on call or in training because these days are the reason they qualify for jobseeker's payment in the first instance. The ambition of all those in receipt of a jobseeker's payment is to secure a job. That is not my ambition but their ambition, which is the reason the support schemes and payments were set up as they were. The purpose of the payment is to keep recipients ticking over, albeit at a basic level, until they find a job. The Deputy appears to suggest we should leave retained firefighters alone. I am not sure that would be the right thing to do.
