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Electoral Reform

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 12 June 2018

Tuesday, 12 June 2018

Questions (17)

Alan Farrell

Question:

17. Deputy Alan Farrell asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the interdepartmental group which is chaired by his Department and which is examining threats to the integrity of the electoral process. [23411/18]

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Oral answers (12 contributions)

Following consideration of the Online Advertising and Social Media (Transparency) Bill 2017, the Government established an interdepartmental group to consider the substantive issues arising from recent experiences in other democratic countries having particular regard to the use of social media by external, anonymous or hidden third parties. In carrying out its assessment, the group is examining ways to safeguard the electoral process from disinformation and associated risks.

The group will also consider Ireland's approach to the issues outlined in the EU Commission's communication of 26 April 2018 on tackling online disinformation.

The group, which has met on a number of occasions to date, is chaired by officials from my Department and includes representatives from the Departments of Housing, Planning and Local Government, Communications, Climate Action and the Environment, Foreign Affairs and Trade, Justice and Equality, Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Education and Skills and Defence, An Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces. An initial draft report is being finalised.

The decisions on the part of Google and Facebook to block a large amount of advertising during the recent referendum campaign was unfortunate but necessary. The reality is that the Taoiseach and his colleagues have dropped the ball on this matter. It is not a matter for private firms to regulate our elections, but it is a fundamental duty for our Government. Earlier this year, the Government initially rejected Fianna Fáil's Bill on online transparency, sponsored by Deputy Lawless, saying that nothing could be done and that it was not technically possible. Only a few months later, it was fully technically possible for these companies to identify the source of advertising.

The regulation of referendum spending is a mess in Ireland. Each political party abides by donation limits and spending transparency, neither of which is respected by some non-party elements. This was not only the case at the most recent referendum, it was also evident during the Lisbon treaty referendum campaign when vast sums were spent by organisation of which we would not have heard prior to the referendum. They were able to mount and finance a campaign which was of crucial and fundamental importance to this country and our membership of the European Union. Unless something urgent is done, the limits and oversight central to our elections will be open to abuse by those who seek to influence our debates. As has been seen throughout Europe in the past 12 months, even elections in small countries are open to being targeted by forces that want to undermine the European solidarity and liberal democracy we all cherish.

When will the Taoiseach and the Government produce proposals? Is not the issue sufficiently serious and profound to necessitate an immediate move to establish a cross-party group to make recommendations before the summer which could be drafted without delay?

This is a serious issue. I welcome this question and compliment Deputy Alan Farrell on tabling it.

We would be extremely naive to think that the influence of online advertising on the political process would not have an impact on us. It has had an impact and will continue to do so. The size of our population makes it cheaper and easier to do so. We need a robust legislative response to the issue and I urge the Government to do so. We have long advocated the establishment of an electoral commission in this country. Such a commission should be part of the response in question.

We need to police the impact of advertising and other things are made on our electoral process and on referendums. There are also other things that an electoral commission could do including the protection of the integrity of our electoral register and ensure that it is constantly updated. It should also facilitate recent immigrants voting. We need to take these matters seriously and I support Deputy Micheál Martin's suggestion that a small, all-party group could look at this very quickly and make recommendations that Government could work with in order to provide a robust legislative response, hopefully in advance of any further elections in this jurisdiction.

I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that the Transparent Referendum Initiative did an excellent job during the recent referendum campaign. Along with researchers in UCD, it did detailed analysis on what sort of advertising was happening during the campaign. Much of it was very positive. We do not want to stop all advertising in the digital world. Much of the advertising helped people on both sides to be involved, which is welcome.

When representatives from Facebook came before the Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment, I asked if they would provide volumetric data on the amount of advertising that took place. The researchers in UCD and the Transparent Referendum Initiative are unable to get this data, which is vital to the real understanding of what happened. Similarly, my colleagues in the European Parliament asked Mark Zuckerburg if Facebook would provide this data. We have not yet received it. Will the Taoiseach add the Government's voice to the calls that Facebook provide data - in a way that is safe, secure and does not reveal any personal data - on how much advertising was paid for in order to help us get a picture of what happened. I support the comments of Deputies Micheál Martin and Howlin to the effect that we would work together, based on knowledge from sound research, as to what we do next in the matter of election advertising.

This is a fundamental question for the integrity of any democratic country, particularly in light of recent events internationally. Without being sensationalist, the decisions of the Internet service providers to ban advertisements from foreign jurisdictions highlighted the murky underbelly of the Internet and the nature and source of much of the advertisements during the recent referendum. My view is that not only is it necessary for us to ensure that the authorities in this State have the necessary tools in their arsenal to police this but that, as has been mentioned, that funding for non-party organisations in the electoral process is monitored more closely.

There is also a need for change regarding the electoral register. I appreciate that the Minister of State, Deputy Phelan, is hard at work in his Department regarding changes in that area. However, we need to change from a primarily paper-based system of registration to an online one. We trust our banking system when it comes to logging on online, etc., as we do with many other institutions such as the Revenue Commissioners, where things may be done initially on paper and maintained online thereafter so that there are no questions regarding integrity. There should be serious consideration given to implementing those changes and learning from the experience of the referendum in May.

I recognise Deputy Farrell for tabling this important and topical question. He referred to the work that the Minister of State, Deputy Phelan, is doing on updating the electoral register. There have been improvements to the electoral register in recent years but it remains quite out of date, as we know from canvassing and knocking on doors. Proposals are being developed on online registration but we need to be careful. Deputy Farrell is correct that we trust banking systems that are online-----

Look at what happened to Visa last week.

-----but, as we have learned from issues affecting Visa, Ulster Bank and other entities, those systems can also go horrendously wrong. It might be easier to hack an electoral register or even influence the result of an election if it was all held on a central database. We must consider all of these matters.

We are right to be concerned about external interference in elections.

It is now evident that there was external interference in the Brexit referendum and in elections in Ukraine and that there were at least attempts in France and Italy. We know that when it came to our referendum only a few weeks ago Facebook and Google decided in one case not to carry any advertisements related to that referendum at all and, in the other, not to allow any from overseas. I do not know why the companies did that but one can only assume that they may have seen something coming which caused them to act. In the run-up to the European Parliament elections next year I am concerned that if external actors wanted to influence our elections they would be interested in the European elections because those who do not like Europe, those who want Europe to be weak and those who do not share European values would like nothing more than a European Parliament full of nationalists, populists and extremists. We need to be wise to the fact that the European elections are not that far away and that there is a risk of foreign interference in those elections.

Foreign interference in elections is not new, nor is big money influencing politics in any way new. We know that in the 1950s and 1960s, both the CIA and KGB were involved in manipulating elections in a number of countries. We also know that big media owners in the UK, and in Ireland, have tried to use their influence on elections. The example that always stands out is the 1997 general election during which a particular newspaper put an editorial on its front page telling people to vote a certain way. There are many theories connected to that. The idea of big money or foreign governments and their agents influencing elections is not new but it is happening in a new way through the Internet.

I am not entirely sure what the solutions to it are but there may well be solutions. We should have the draft report from the group soon. I propose to share the report with the various parties and then try to map a way forward from there because I would be loath to have the Government amend electoral law. People would not trust it if it were just a Government proposal. It must be done on an all-party basis. The group is examining, in particular, the experience in EU members states and other countries. It is examining our electoral process and disinformation, and social media and cybersecurity. It is trying to examine how other countries have tried to deal with this threat to see what we can do.

Will the Taoiseach ask Facebook to give the data?

I do not fully understand the request.

I will explain it to the Taoiseach.

I genuinely do not.

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