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Cabinet Committee Meetings

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 18 September 2018

Tuesday, 18 September 2018

Questions (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

Joan Burton

Question:

1. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee C, European Union, including Brexit, last met; and when it is scheduled to meet again. [27644/18]

View answer

Mary Lou McDonald

Question:

2. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee C, European Union, including Brexit, last met; and when it is scheduled to meet again. [29286/18]

View answer

Eamon Ryan

Question:

3. Deputy Eamon Ryan asked the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee C, European Union, including Brexit, last met; and when it is scheduled to meet again. [29412/18]

View answer

Joan Burton

Question:

4. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee C, European Union, including Brexit, last met. [37674/18]

View answer

Brendan Howlin

Question:

5. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee C. European Union, including Brexit, last met; and when it is scheduled to meet again. [37751/18]

View answer

Oral answers (12 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, together.

Cabinet committee C assists the Government in its ongoing consideration of Brexit. It also covers other EU and international issues and supports my participation as a member of the European Council. It last met on Thursday, 21 June in advance of the European Council on 28 and 29 June. This was the third such meeting of this Cabinet committee. The next meeting has not yet been scheduled.

Given the significance of Brexit and other EU issues, these matters are frequently discussed by the full Cabinet, including in detail at our meeting in Derrynane in July and again at this morning's meeting. I also meet regularly with individual Ministers or groups of relevant Ministers to focus on particular issues, including those relating to the EU and Brexit, with a view to seeing how the Government can best support delivery of priorities and commitments. Preparation for Brexit at official level in regard to the negotiations and in preparing for the potential consequences of the UK's withdrawal from the EU is intensive, with a range of interdepartmental and senior official groups meeting very regularly.

We are now entering the witching period with regard to Brexit when deals and compromises emerge, very often late at night. The Government is hinting heavily that a deal on the backstop is nigh and that Ireland is willing to compromise on the previously cast-iron backstop guarantee. Michel Barnier is speculating on "de-dramatising" the backstop. Does the Taoiseach agree that this is a period of maximum danger for Ireland, notwithstanding the valuable solidarity offered to us by our colleagues in the EU? From a democratic point of view, the Taoiseach needs to enlighten people about what the Government's position is now as against what he previously described in this Chamber as a cast-iron commitment. We need to know the Government's plan of action and its approach to these negotiations. We do not want the Taoiseach to come back with some outcome that is less than satisfactory and causes serious problems in respect of the Border. Everybody, North and South, regardless of background, agrees on what is the most favourable outcome for Ireland. Now we find that this is in some peril. Will the Taoiseach enlighten us about his plans?

I accept that media reports in Ireland and across the water in Britain yesterday about the implementation of the backstop agreed between the British Government and the EU in December amounted to speculation. Nonetheless, at this stage, they are very worrying.

It is clear there is still a wide difference of opinion between the various actors, that is to say, the British Government and the European Union. I have heard the Irish Government say that Chequers represents a basis for progress, although I do not know what that means. I believe the Chequers plan put forward by the Tory Government does not resolve the crucially important and sensitive issues surrounding the Border and the protection of citizens' rights in the North. On the contrary, I think it serves only to confuse and deflect. Theresa May's plan falls well short of what was contained in the December backstop and well short of the benchmarks that had been agreed to protect the Good Friday Agreement in all of its parts, which includes no diminution of the rights of citizens in the North of Ireland and to ensure no hardening of the Border.

That is the bottom line. We have an agreed cross-party position right across the Oireachtas that the way to do that is to ensure the North remains within the customs union and the Single Market, although there are different iterations of that. It is very important at this stage that the Government holds firm and that Mr. Barnier and the negotiating team hold firm. What is meant by Chequers as a basis for progress? What is meant by latitude or a perception of latitude on the part of Dublin in terms of revisiting the backstop? The bottom lines are the bottom lines. They are the minimum necessary protections for this island and they have to be honoured.

It seems we are coming down to the crux of the withdrawal element within the Brexit negotiations, and it seems to focus on the issue of whether there will be a border in the Irish Sea or what type of border would exist between the island of Ireland and Britain. I know our preference might have been for as easy a border-less east-west outcome as a North-South one. However, as I understand it from listening to Michel Barnier, the EU has to protect its own Single Market and, in doing so, while it may be willing to offer concessions to ensure there is no border on the island of Ireland, it will not provide such a mechanism for the rest of the UK and, therefore, there will have to be some sort of border in the Irish Sea.

If that is the case, can the Taoiseach outline whether the Government is considering technological applications that might be able to manage that and which would be able to get over some of the constitutional difficulties the UK Government might have? Does he agree that, in hindsight, maybe we made a mistake last December? On the Monday, the original deal was done with the UK Government which envisaged that outcome but the British Government then capitulated and, by the latter part of that week, on the Thursday, there was a new wording along the lines of "one for everyone in the audience", that the Single Market does not matter. Maybe we should have been more honest and direct last December by holding to the line of the agreement that was written on the Monday rather than putting in the fudge on the Thursday. Does the Taoiseach believe there is some way we can overcome this issue of the border in the Irish Sea that I believe Michel Barnier wants?

Other Deputies have raised issues that are very important. I am deeply concerned there will be a lot of quickly moving parts in a very short period of time, and that we might be blindsided by some of the decisions that are happening. On the domestic front, it was announced a year ago as a key Brexit support measure that there would be a €300 million Brexit loan fund. It was announced during the summer that, of the 5,000 companies the Government had announced would benefit from it, only ten companies had done so, and of the €300 million that was going to be made available, less than €2.5 million had actually been allocated. Is the Taoiseach happy with that position? What is the up-to-date position and has there been a dramatic change since June? We need to prepare. While I am very happy to be part of the Brexit group that meets periodically with the Tánaiste, these are the practical things that should be happening in parallel to the negotiations.

It is clear there is an overwhelming momentum to conclude a withdrawal agreement. A car crash Brexit next March is simply not going to happen because the financial, economic and security damage caused would be much worse than any alternative. We should also remember that the Taoiseach and Tánaiste repeatedly said that Ireland would veto the continuation of the talks if there was any backsliding but they failed to do so when the critical moment came in March. Since then, in July, Michel Barnier signalled the de-dramatising of the backstop. There has been a constant drip of stories from London, Dublin and Brussels about what is on the way. As we head into the decisive weeks in the negotiations, it would be helpful if the Taoiseach would clarify whether the backstop still means what was claimed for it in December. Last December the Taoiseach told the press conference in Government Buildings that the backstop means continued membership of both the customs union and the Single Market. That is the key point. Both he and the Tánaiste referred to the deal meaning, effectively, the continuance of the status quo, not just in terms of border checks but, crucially, the administration of trade. Can the Taoiseach assure us there will be no attempt to redefine what is meant by the backstop? In particular, is it still his belief that Northern Ireland should continue with full access to both the customs union and the Single Market, and that it is not good enough to just find a way of not having a border? Can he explain why, so far, we have heard nothing about any discussion on how regulatory alignment would be maintained in Northern Ireland if the blockage on east-west checks is overcome?

There is an informal summit of EU Heads of Government this week in Salzburg. I appreciate the Taoiseach does not have to report to the House because it is to be an informal summit, either before or after the main meeting, but perhaps he might give us an indication of what he would hope to achieve at that summit. Although decisions cannot be made, does he expect to make some progress in regard to resolving the Irish question in the context of Brexit? What other issues of importance are on the agenda for that informal summit?

As I said earlier, it is not advisable for me at this stage in the negotiations to give a running commentary on how things are going but briefings are available to party leaders and, of course, they are available through the co-ordination group headed by the Tánaiste. I welcome the fact some parties have been attending the group regularly. Suffice to say, a lot of briefings have been going on and there have been a lot of stories in the media which have been very far off the mark.

In terms of the Government's position in this phase of the talks, our position is as it has been since the very start. We want the withdrawal agreement to include a commitment to retaining the common travel area, a transition period giving businesses and people time to prepare for any permanent changes that may take place in the rules of east-west trade between Britain and Ireland and protection of citizens' rights for those EU citizens living in Northern Ireland. There is also the backstop - the Irish protocol - which gives us a legally operable guarantee that should it not be possible to negotiate a new comprehensive relationship between the UK and the EU that negates the need for a border during the transition period, we will have the backstop to fall back on. This is something we hope will never need to be used. We would prefer to resolve the situation through the new EU-UK relationship, and I have always said that. We want option A as opposed to option C, if we want to go back to the language of December. However, we still need it because when I hear people talking about negotiating a new deal between the EU and the UK, something similar to Canada, for example, first, that would not solve the border problem and, second, it took seven years to negotiate. We need to know there is a legally operable backstop in place which would apply unless and until we can develop a new-----

Does that mean Northern Ireland would still be in the customs union and Single Market?

The backstop is no secret. The backstop, or at least the draft backstop, was published back in March so anyone can see in black and white what that means. It means applying the rules of the customs union and the rules of the Single Market to the extent they applied to the all-island economy. I should not need to elaborate on it. The EU published our draft of the backstop back in March. That has not been accepted by the UK Government so we now need to negotiate. As I have always said, we are flexible on the language but we cannot be flexible on the outcome.

I thought it was cast-iron.

The outcome has to give us what was agreed to last December and must become law, namely, a legally binding and operable backstop in the withdrawal agreement. Without it, there cannot be a withdrawal agreement, as everyone should understand at this stage.

In essence, dedramatisation is about trying to move away from language such as "a border in the Irish Sea". People can misinterpret such terms as referring to some form of constitutional border. No one is disputing the constitutional status of Northern Ireland which will be part of the United Kingdom until such time as the people there vote to say otherwise. Sometimes when language of the kind referred to is used, it can be seen as some sort of constitutional move or grab. It is not part of the Irish Government's agenda to change the constitutional status of Northern Ireland. As I have often said, I do not want a border between Larne and Stranraer anymore than I want one between Newry and Dundalk. The things being examined include the checks that may need to take place. We already have checks taking place on an east-west basis, including sanitary and phytosanitary standards, SPS, checks for agricultural products coming from Britain to Ireland. We also have certain North-South checks in relation, for example, to cigarettes and excise duty on diesel. We are trying to profile the checks which might take place, but the principle remains that there should be no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

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