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British-Irish Council

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 25 September 2018

Tuesday, 25 September 2018

Questions (1, 2, 3)

Brendan Howlin

Question:

1. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his attendance at the British-Irish Council in Guernsey; the meetings he held; and the issues raised. [29006/18]

View answer

Joan Burton

Question:

2. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his attendance at the British-Irish Council in Guernsey. [30087/18]

View answer

Mary Lou McDonald

Question:

3. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the recent meeting of the British-Irish Council. [30412/18]

View answer

Oral answers (7 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

I attended the 30th British-Irish Council, BIC, summit in Guernsey on Friday, 22 June, hosted by Chief Minister Gavin St. Pier. I was accompanied by the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy.

The BIC is an institution created under the Good Friday Agreement and brings together representatives of the eight member administrations: the British and Irish Governments, the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales and the governments of the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey. It works to promote harmonious and mutually beneficial relationships across the islands and provides an opportunity to consult, co-operate and exchange views on common policies or on areas of shared interest.

The discussion at the summit covered key political developments for the administrations since the previous summit in November. The discussion focused largely on the implications of Brexit, particularly for relationships across the islands. The council also discussed the current political situation in Northern Ireland and I reiterated my regret that Northern Ireland, until the Executive is restored, is without political representation in this important forum.

The council also endorsed plans for a future programme of work proposed by environment Ministers and agreed to a new area of work on social enterprises.

The Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, took part in a thematic discussion on the issues that collectively impact on the marine environment of these islands.

David Lidington MP, Cabinet Office Minister, and Karen Bradley MP, Secretary Of State for Northern Ireland, attended for the British Government along with the First Ministers from Scotland and Wales and the heads of administration from the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey.

I took the opportunity to have bilateral meetings with the Welsh First Minister, Carwyn Jones, and the Scottish First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. In both meetings we exchanged views and perspectives on issues of mutual interest and continued co-operation, with discussions focusing mainly on Brexit and its impacts on business and citizens and on developments in Westminster and Brussels. In my meeting with the Welsh First Minister, Mr. Jones, I confirmed our intention to reopen our consulate in Cardiff as part of the Global Ireland 2025 plan.

I also held brief discussions with David Lidington and Karen Bradley on Brexit and on the absence of an agreement between the parties on re-establishing the Northern Ireland Executive. I underlined the importance of the restoration of the institutions in the context of full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, and undertook to continue to work with the British Government to support the Northern Ireland parties to achieve this outcome.

I note that the British Prime Minister, Mrs. Theresa May, did not attend the summit. In his conversations with Mrs. May, has the Taoiseach suggested that her attendance at the British-Irish Council could be valuable for understanding the difficulties and likely impacts of a difficult Brexit for the island of Ireland, North and South, and Scotland and Wales, which were represented by their First Ministers? In that context, I note the Taoiseach had discussions with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and Mr. Lidington.

Having met Prime Minister May at the meeting in Salzburg last week, does the Taoiseach believe that the backstop is becoming more illusory, as there appears to be little chance of the British Government reaching a deal either in regard to the Single Market or the customs union? There are also issues arising from the Belfast Agreement regarding personal freedoms and rights and the rule of law, particularly in Northern Ireland. What is the Taoiseach's assessment of where we stand in terms of, potentially, a difficult Brexit? We do not have any great detail from the Government as to how it plans to protect Irish businesses and Irish situations in light of a difficult Brexit. There are various schemes for grants and so on for businesses but little preparation has been made by Government on the details of how Brexit will impact on businesses north and south of the Border.

In July, the Taoiseach said the talks in respect of the Northern Ireland institutions and the re-establishment of them would reconvene in the autumn. I would like him to set out if this is still his proposed timetable. What action does he propose to take in respect of the rights that are still outstanding in the North? I refer to marriage equality, Acht na Gaeilge and the struggle of so many families to secure inquests. As the Taoiseach will be aware, for many of these families, these sagas have been decades long and this struggle is not defined by, or confined to, Orange or Green, but a dilemma right across society. The Taoiseach will also be aware that I have challenged Mrs. May many times on the ethic or the morality of withholding inquests from families, which is after all a basic democratic norm and a basic right for anybody who purports to have any interest in the rule of law.

Last February, we achieved an accommodation, not perfectly formed to the nationalist or republican eye but an accommodation nonetheless, that we believed had sufficiency to allow us to proceed to re-establish the Executive but the DUP walked away from it. The DUP's toxic relationship with the British Prime Minister, Theresa May, has given them safe haven at Westminster. No incentive or pressure has been exerted to encourage the DUP to do what needs to be done to re-establish the institutions. Now, as the drama of the renewable heat incentive inquiry, RHI, unfolds, we are witnessing the absolute neurotic behaviour of so many within the DUP leadership. I would not give the Taoiseach much hope for the future. That said, we need to move forward. As stated by the previous speaker, the Brexit dilemma will reach its crescendo and the jeopardy is very great for Ireland, North and South. In regard to the Taoiseach's timetable for talks, what has Karen Bradley told him because she has told us damn all and will he set out his plans in this regard?

I will allow two brief supplementaries from Deputies Calleary and Boyd Barrett. I ask the Deputies to be brief otherwise the Taoiseach will not have time to reply.

The meeting in Guernsey was held up by the Tánaiste in particular, as, possibly, a game-changer or a major meeting in the context of the continued vacuum around the Northern Ireland Executive, yet the British Prime Minister did not turn up to it. The strength of the British-Irish Council, BIC, over the years has been full participation and full sharing of information around the table among all the taoisigh and prime ministers on the island. What plans does the Taoiseach have to reinvigorate the BIC? While I accept that the focus of London right now is on Brexit, urgency needs to be injected into addressing the vacuum in the Northern Ireland Executive. With respect to Deputy McDonald, she is not necessarily an impartial observer either because her party is part of the problem and it needs to come forward with solutions to address the vacuum otherwise we will return to the situation we had.

In the context of Brexit, what is the Taoiseach's reaction to the speech delivered this afternoon by Sir Keir Starmer in which he said that the Labour Party would be unlikely to vote for any deal in the UK Parliament, if such a deal is arrived at, once again throwing huge uncertainty into the Brexit process?

It goes without saying that we cannot trust the Tory right - the Tory Brexiteers - in terms of the consequences of, and negotiations around, the British exit for obvious reasons. We have always said that we do not necessarily trust the EU to look after Irish interests on the issue of the Border if those negotiations do not go well but the Taoiseach has always said that we will not accept any hard border. While that reassurance is welcome, is there a contradiction in his references to the recruitment of customs officials and his statement that we will not accept a hard border because the former would appear to suggest that the State is preparing to erect trade and customs barriers? Can he give us an assurance that those customs officials will not be deployed at any point along the Border, regardless of what happens, or what deals do or do not happen, between Europe and Britain? While I do not trust the Tory Brexiteers, I also do not trust the EU to not insist on a border to protect the Single Market, which would be unacceptable. Can the Taoiseach give us an assurance that the State will not deploy customs officials along the Border between the North and South?

The Prime Minister, Mrs. May, did not attend the BIC and I understand she has never done so. While former Prime Minister Cameron attended one such meeting during his six year tenure, the practice since the early days of the Good Friday Agreement has been that the Taoiseach attends on behalf of Ireland and the Secretary of State attends on behalf of the UK Government. I have not spoken to Prime Minister May about her attending the council but I have spoken to her about the need for a new mechanism by which the British and Irish Governments can engage on a structured basis. We do this well at the moment because both countries are in the EU and every Minister and his or her UK counterpart attends EU Councils three or four times a year, which is always a good opportunity for bilaterals. We will now move from a situation whereby we see each other at least four times a year in Brussels to a situation whereby we will not. This will happen from March next year and I have spoken to Prime Minister May about how we might deal with that and put in place a structured mechanism by which the two sovereign governments could meet more regularly. Perhaps, the mechanism for doing this is not the BIC, but the British Irish Intergovernmental Conference, BIIGC, which can meet in different formats. The Good Friday Agreement may have been more foreseeing than any of us could have imagined in that, perhaps, this mechanism for east-west co-operation between the two sovereign Governments could be reinvigorated and used an opportunity for us engage Minister to Minister and Prime Minister to Prime Minister on a structured basis after the UK leaves the European Union in March.

On the backstop, or the protocol in Ireland and Northern Ireland, Prime Minister May once again restated her commitment to having a legally operable backstop as part of the withdrawal agreement. In Salzburg, the other 26 member states reiterated their solidarity with Ireland and restated our position that there will not be a withdrawal agreement and no transition period for the UK if there is not an Irish protocol - a legally operable Irish backstop - as part of that agreement. I believe we will get there - and in November - because nobody wants us to end up in a no deal scenario. The damage for the UK would be immense. The damage for Ireland would also be immense and it would have a serious impact on other countries like Belgium, Holland, France and Denmark. As I said, I believe we will get there in November but we are in uncharted territory.

I have sought a lot of advice on this over the past couple of weeks and over the summer. I have met many wise old heads who know Europe, British politics and Northern Ireland and all the issues around it and I came away from those meetings with the advice that it is uncharted territory and unpredictable and I was advised to do my best. That was probably the best advice I could have got. We will have to stay engaged and stay vigilant and that is what we will do in the period ahead.

In terms of talks on getting the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly back up and running, the Tánaiste and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland are in touch about new talks. There have been suggestions around the possibility of having an independent chair for these talks but I understand that proposal has not found favour with the DUP and it will not be possible to form an Executive in Northern Ireland unless the DUP and Sinn Féin can come together and come to an agreement. Northern Ireland unfortunately now holds the international record for failing to form a government, which is a real shame. Clarity around Brexit could help so perhaps by the October or November summit, if there is one, we will have a road map as to how Brexit will work and what the new relationships will look like. We might then be in a better position to bring the parties together again and Government stands ready to do exactly that.

I did not have a chance to hear Sir Keir Starmer's speech so I cannot really comment on it but it is the case that any withdrawal agreement will have to be ratified by both Westminster and the European Parliament so while we may assume that because something is agreed by the European Council and the UK that it will go through both parliaments, we should not actually make that assumption. There is the possibility that the Heads of Government in the European Council and the UK will come to a decision in October or November and we may find that it runs into ratification problems in Westminster or the European Parliament. We will have to manage that and see how it develops.

On Deputy Boyd Barrett's question, we are recruiting customs and revenue officers for the ports and airports, particularly Dublin Airport, Dublin Port and Rosslare Europort. It must be borne in mind that when the UK leaves the European Union, whether it is in March next year or at the end of the transition period at the start of 2021, it will be leaving the Single Market as well so there will be changes. The rules of trade and the trading relationship between Britain and Ireland will not be as it is now. We need to make provision for those changes and that is what we are doing but we will not be deploying any of them along the land Border with Northern Ireland.

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