Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 2 October 2018
9. Deputy Eamon Ryan asked the Taoiseach if he has met religious leaders in Ireland recently; and his plans for managing the transition to a new relationship between religion, religious institutions and the State. [37882/18]
View answer10. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with Pope Francis. [38475/18]
View answer11. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Pope Francis. [38620/18]
View answer12. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Pope Francis. [38629/18]
View answerI propose to take Questions Nos. 9 to 12, inclusive, together.
I met Pope Francis during his visit to Dublin Castle on Saturday, 25 August. The meeting provided an opportunity for both of us to discuss a number of issues, though regrettably not at any great length because of the short duration of our meeting. I welcomed Pope Francis, who thanked me for the warm welcome he had received on arrival. We spoke of the legacy of pain and suffering caused by the failures of the church and the State in Ireland. We discussed how Ireland is still a country with strong faith but that there is much to be done to bring about justice, truth and healing for the victims and survivors. I thanked Pope Francis for his statements on climate change, encouraging countries to accept refugees, and international development. We also spoke of Irish missionaries and how they continue their work today and about the Pope's home country of Argentina and the role of the Irish there. I used the opportunity during my speech later that day to expand on these issues and to express my strong wish that words be followed by actions.
I strongly believe in a greater separation of church and State and in freedom of and respect for religion. I hope the visit of Pope Francis will be the opening of a new chapter in the relationship between Ireland and the Catholic Church, one in which the church is no longer at the centre of our society but still has an important role to play.
It is very beneficial that Government should engage with churches and faith communities in a structured way. On 22 January 2018 several Cabinet Ministers and I met representatives of the Church of Ireland and the Presbyterian and Methodist churches in a formal meeting under the structured dialogue process between church and State. This was the second in a series of meetings I will hold with dialogue partners. We discussed important social and economic issues facing Irish society, including Brexit, education issues, the eighth amendment and international development. On 31 August, some of my colleagues and I held formal meetings under the structured dialogue process with representatives of the Catholic Church, led by Archbishop Eamon Martin. A wide-ranging discussion took place on a range of important national and international issues, including education, Northern Ireland, overseas development and social justice. Some of the issues we discussed at these meetings were very challenging. They are issues on which people have deeply held views and which some consider to be matters of conscience. Our discussions were valuable, not just because they dealt with important issues, but particularly because they were conducted in an atmosphere of respect for the views of others, where everyone sought to be more constructive.
Like public representatives generally, I meet church leaders informally from time to time in the course of attending official or public events. In particular, with the recent visit of Pope Francis, I attended several events that were also attended by representatives of various religious groups. I have also had the opportunity to engage with the Muslim community around Eid and our Jewish community around Passover.
I was particularly interested in the speech the Taoiseach gave alongside Pope Francis in Dublin Castle. In it he set out the ambition of "a new covenant", if I am quoting him correctly. Later in the speech I think he made a point about our hospital services, saying he was looking for a hospital service based on a civic and scientific ethos. I agree. The real question, however, is what exactly does this civic component include?
I hope it does and can include communities and people of religious faith because they bring a lot to our society. They should not be central or have control over the State in any way, but they have a contribution to make. I am interested to know where the Taoiseach thinks that covenant would be constructed. I hear of his Cabinet meetings but is there any wider mechanism he sees us partaking in to develop that type of civic society? I was very taken by a book published by a number of people, including Fr. Gerry O'Hanlon SJ, entitled A Dialogue of Hope. He set out how the churches could be useful in the dialogue the State needs to have across all our work. I think, however, that it has changed slightly. The conversation around such a covenant might be a useful mechanism for the church to engage, in a synodal way, with other churches and with people of no faith in answering the question of what the roles of churches and those of all faiths and none in our society are. Would the Taoiseach consider such a synodal approach in bringing people in to consider that covenant question?
Last week or the week before, I raised with the Taoiseach the issue of the Tuam mother and baby home. He reflected on the fact that he had visited the site in a personal capacity. I understand he has made a commitment to meet Catherine Corless and the survivors. He might inform us if there has been any progress made on such a meeting.
When the Pope visited, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone, met him, spoke to him and gave him a letter relating to the abuses carried out in mother and baby homes. While the church has a responsibility and a case to answer in that regard, so too does the State. I put it to the Taoiseach that the burial site at the Tuam mother and baby home must be secured, the remains exhumed and every effort made to reunite the remains of the babies and children buried there with their families. That is the Government's decision to make. It is the right thing to do. I urge the Taoiseach to meet, with some urgency, Catherine Corless and the survivors. They want to meet with him before the Minister, Deputy Zappone, concludes her work.
The Minister stated in her letter that she was of the view that the church should contribute significantly to whatever decision is made. She stated that it "should be done willingly, unconditionally and quickly". Has there been a response from the Pope to the Minister's letter? If so, what was that response? Was it justified and reasonable? What is the financial ask of the church?
In the Taoiseach's speech to Pope Francis he talked about a new chapter in the relationship between Ireland and the Catholic Church. The repeal referendum and, perhaps, the visit itself, given that the numbers going to see the Pope were far lower than expected, clearly indicate, as the Taoiseach mentioned, that the relationship the majority of people in this country want is a separation of the institutions of the State from church and religious doctrine. The question is whether the Taoiseach's vision of that is going to be different from the old relationship when it comes to who runs critical services and what services they provide, particularly in areas such as health and education.
I especially want to ask the Taoiseach about the national maternity hospital. I and others have asked about it and we are deeply concerned about it. Dr. Peter Boylan wrote an alarming letter to The Irish Times in August in which he pointed out that the Religious Sisters of Charity says that the St. Vincent's group will have to uphold the values and vision of Mother Mary Aikenhead, foundress of the Religious Sisters of Charity, and that the Irish Catholic Bishops' Conference published in its Code of Ethical Standards for Healthcare that Catholic health facilities will not provide assisted fertility treatment, artificial contraception, morning-after pills, surrogacy, abortion, a referral elsewhere for abortion, sterilisation, or gender reassignment surgery. If that were to be the situation in the national maternity hospital run by the new St. Vincent's group, it would be absolutely unacceptable. I want reassurance, as do the women of Ireland, that the national maternity hospital will not be abiding by that sort of code of ethics.
I am anxious to give the Taoiseach some time to respond but I want to ask two questions. I am very strongly in support of the point made in respect of the Tuam mother and baby home. I understand that an initial document was handed to the Pope by the Minister, Deputy Zappone, on his visit and that a second letter, a more comprehensive statement of fact, was submitted to the Vatican. I would certainly be interested in hearing what response, if any, has been received to those letters. I presume the response was directed to the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, but has the Taoiseach had sight of it? Should we have openness in respect of the contents of this correspondence?
On the general principles set out in the Taoiseach's speech in Dublin Castle, there is now a suggestion of a citizens' assembly. That is a very good model. It has worked very well on a number of seemingly intractable, difficult and challenging questions. The Taoiseach might now consider using that model for the examination of the future ownership and control of education in this country.
As a society we need to remember that we should not replace one intolerance with another. In an era in which organised religions have moved to a different role and significance in society, tolerance and respect for different faiths should not just apply to smaller religions. The recent visit of the Pope was very welcome, as was his open and sincere approach to the issues which were raised with him.
It is now eight years since the Government announced the transfer of 50% of church schools to alternative patronage. The result delivered has been the dramatic slowing down of divestment. The process adopted has crawled along and the opportunity seems to have been missed to take up Archbishop Martin's offer immediately to divest a large number of schools in Dublin. Will the Taoiseach explain whether he has taken any initiative to move the divestment process out of its slumber? Has he followed up the Pope's visit with any specific engagement on the issues raised by him and others during the visit, issues which have been referenced?
On hospitals and healthcare institutions, the Minister for Health has asked Ms Catherine Day, former head of the civil service in the European Union, to lead some work on the future relationship and governance of our hospitals for us. I have not had sight of that work yet. I am not quite sure how advanced it is but I look forward to seeing the outcome once it is ready.
Volunteerism in health and education does have value. Faith-based bodies and churches have often, though not always, brought a good ethos, a tradition and a loyalty to schools and hospitals. While things need to change, I would not like to see all those good things lost. We know of the valuable work that religious and faith-inspired charities do in areas such as housing and homelessness and the alleviation of poverty. I would not like to see a separation of church and State that is so rigid and cold that all that would be lost and that the State would refuse to engage with all of that good work and the positive spirit of volunteerism that exists in health and education.
The new national maternity hospital will be publicly owned and any medical procedure that is legal in Ireland, including assisted human reproduction and the termination of pregnancy, will be available in that hospital. It will be publicly built and publicly owned. That is how we intend it to develop. I should point out that the National Maternity Hospital at Holles Street is a voluntary hospital. While he does not attend the meetings any more, the chairman of the board is the Archbishop of Dublin. It is important to recognise the starting point as well as what we intend to be the end point.
Deputy Eamon Ryan made some good suggestions. I will certainly give consideration to the proposals he has made.
On the former mother and baby home in Tuam, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Katherine Zappone, is developing proposals for how we should deal with the site and, most particularly, the remains of the children buried there. When she has this work done, or substantially complete, it is my intention, alongside her, to organise the meetings. I do not know if there has yet been a reply to her letters from Pope Francis or the Vatican, but to the best of my knowledge there has not been. However, I might not be up to date on the matter, but I will certainly raise it with her if I see her tomorrow.
We have a few citizens' assemblies in train. There is one planned on gender equality to consider how we can further advance that agenda. There is also one planned on the reform of local government in Dublin, a Dublin Citizens' Assembly. We have taken on board Deputy Eamon Ryan's suggestion that it include not just citizens but also councillors and perhaps even Deputies and people with experience of local government. It will probably be a little more like the Constitutional Convention model, with a ratio of one third to two thirds. These are the ones we want to have in 2019. We only have the bandwidth to have so many at any given time, but we may able to have more after that.
That assembly will deal with local government in Dublin only.
I acknowledge the criticism from Deputy Micheál Martin on the divestment of schools. Surveys of preschool children are being conducted in different school areas. When they are completed, they will inform us what parents want. That will allow us to speed up the process again.
