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Electoral Reform

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 16 October 2018

Tuesday, 16 October 2018

Questions (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

Mary Lou McDonald

Question:

1. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the recently published report of the interdepartmental group on security of Ireland’s electoral process and disinformation. [37663/18]

View answer

Joan Burton

Question:

2. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the recently published report of the interdepartmental group on security of Ireland’s electoral process and disinformation. [39903/18]

View answer

Brendan Howlin

Question:

3. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the first report of the interdepartmental group on security of Ireland’s electoral process and disinformation. [39906/18]

View answer

Micheál Martin

Question:

4. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the interdepartmental group on security of Ireland’s electoral process and disinformation co-ordinated by his Department; and if he will further report on the recent launch of the public consultation on the regulation of online political advertising. [40019/18]

View answer

Alan Farrell

Question:

5. Deputy Alan Farrell asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update regarding the public consultation on the regulation of online political advertising. [41818/18]

View answer

Micheál Martin

Question:

6. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach his plans to protect Ireland's democratic and electoral process in view of developments in other countries; and if this will require legislation or constitutional change. [41808/18]

View answer

Michael Moynihan

Question:

7. Deputy Michael Moynihan asked the Taoiseach his plans to protect Ireland's democratic and electoral process in view of developments in other countries; and if this will require legislation or constitutional change. [41810/18]

View answer

Oral answers (52 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 7, inclusive, together.

The Government established an interdepartmental group to consider the security of the election process and disinformation. The first report of the group was published on 17 July 2018 and looked at issues concerning the security of the electoral process, taking into account risks that apply across the whole spectrum. The report found that risks to the electoral system in Ireland are relatively low as a result of mitigation factors already in place. However, the spread of disinformation online and the risk of cyberattacks on the electoral system pose more substantial risks. The finding was in line with EU level and recent international experience.

The report identifies a number of proposals to deal with the gaps identified. It also acknowledges that actions arising from such proposals require widespread support from both political parties and civil society. The next steps, as agreed by Government, are to expedite the establishment of the electoral commission and regulate the transparency of online political advertising. This will build upon some of the principles proposed in the Online Advertising and Social Media (Transparency) Bill from Deputy James Lawless and recent discussions in the Dáil and the Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment.

Regulation of online political advertising is to be considered, in the first instance, by way of public consultation, which was launched by the group on 21 September. Views can be submitted up to 19 October and the consultation will form the basis for an open policy forum thereafter. The forum will involve all relevant stakeholders across industry, academia, political parties, the media and civil society. It will seek to identify policy solutions that respect the right to freedom of expression and relevant EU law while promoting the transparency necessary for open political discourse in a democracy that will protect the electoral processes from hidden influences and disinformation. The open policy forum is planned to be held before the end of November 2018, after the presidential inauguration, as we believe it would not be appropriate to hold it during an election campaign.

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an Taoiseach as teacht isteach agus an cheist seo a fhreagairt. I welcome the publication of the report. It certainly makes for interesting reading and points to a number of issues associated with the electoral process in Ireland. I am sure we are familiar with the problems associated with the electoral register, whether that is people dropping off the register or finding it difficult to register, or the register being very much out of date in some instances. I think it is accepted by every party that the problems associated with the register need to be addressed and the establishment of a permanent electoral commission would be a step in the right direction in addressing these issues. That has been a feature of programmes for Government for at least a decade now but it has yet to happen. At what stage are preparations in respect of the electoral commission Bill and when might it come before the Dáil?

One particular area of note in the report concerns the possible extension of the franchise to citizens outside of the State. I asked the Taoiseach about this a fortnight ago in the context of the proposed referendum to extend presidential voting rights to citizens in the North and the diaspora. This report notes that the register of electors in its current form cannot provide for a possible extension of the franchise to Irish citizens resident outside of the State. That will clearly need to be addressed. What are the Taoiseach's plans in that regard?

Thank you, Deputy. The time is up.

The report's recommendations on tackling online disinformation, regulating online advertising, supporting the media and ensuring transparency of funding are all very welcome and should be implemented.

There is also commentary in respect of donations. An article in The Sunday Times at the weekend highlighted loopholes that exist in respect of disclosing political donations. I do not know if the Taoiseach saw that article. It made reference to a number of instances of money being paid to both his party and to Fianna Fáil for what the director of one of the corporate donors identified called "face time".

Deputy, we need to stick to the allocated time.

It ought to be a source of concern. A particular group called Golden Horseshoe, which apparently made a donation to the Taoiseach, was mentioned. I do not know if the Taoiseach wishes to comment on that on the record.

I think every party in this House would welcome the establishment of an electoral commission as soon as possible. The report references the online dangers that may well exist in regard to our electoral system.

I also want to raise with the Taoiseach the electoral register which was recently published and made available to public representatives. This year the Dublin local authorities took the unilateral action of reordering the details of electors in the hard copy of the electoral register, the one which is provided and available to public representatives and to candidates.

The new design is unusable because street numbers are randomised in relation to odd and even numbers. As such, it is impossible for a new candidate in particular to identify where specific houses are and then identify a name. I questioned the Minister on this and was told by way of reply to a parliamentary question that the electronic soft copy provided to Deputies in Excel would suffice and that local authorities had discharged their duty to provide the register in a usable format. I do not know how many people use the electoral register, but in its current format, it is not usable. It is a significant constraint in a democracy for candidates and public representatives who have a legitimate need to access the electoral register. I ask the Taoiseach to tell the House how he intends to proceed on this matter.

I too welcome the publication of the report in July. While it finds that there is a low risk of cyberattacks or disinformation online in this jurisdiction, we cannot be complacent and must put measures in place when we face elections. While I understand a reluctance to proceed very overtly in the course of a presidential election, I ask the Taoiseach if he intends to follow the recommendation to regulate online advertising in place before next year's local and European elections. If that is the deadline, it is a tight one if there is to be a consultation before the end of the year, draft heads of a Bill and a clear delineation of rules well in advance of a May election. It would be naive to think there are not some elements who would like to interfere with our electoral processes in an unauthorised way. We are not so irrelevant that it would not take place.

The register of electors is a source of frustration in every single election as we always come across those who have simply disappeared off it. People who have lived in the same houses for years on end and never moved find suddenly that they have been removed when they go to vote. They do not check because they assume they do not need to having always been on the register. While we exhort people to check the online register, we need a more robust system in place to ensure we facilitate those who want to vote. That is obviously contingent on proper safeguards. A permanent electoral commission is the solution to that. We have talked about it for a long time and we need to establish one.

While the Government likes to talk the talk about being modern, its response to this issue has proceeded at a snail's pace. I appreciate the Taoiseach's comments on Deputy James Lawless, who has taken a leading role on this overall issue. However, the interdepartmental report includes nothing which could not have been put together over a couple of days by any of the many researchers and academics in our universities who specialise in online communications and security. It is a simple fact that aggressive campaigns of disinformation have become almost routine in European elections. What differs between countries is that some have adopted robust measures to identify and expose this activity. Everyone here has experienced online abuse and disinformation and, equally, we all know that one party in particular specialises in aggressive online attacks on opponents. In a public policy context, this disinformation is deeply sinister. For example, RT has, for some reason, decided to promote anti-vaccine conspiracies, which are being retweeted here with no official pushback. The issue is whether the Government is serious about doing something, or is this another process which will simply go nowhere? Can the Taoiseach tell the House what, if any, measures will be in place at the time of next May's local and European elections? Will he, at a minimum, ask Internet companies to provide basic transparency by identifying the source and financial scale of political advertising?

Yesterday, Facebook announced that it is changing its rules so that by the time of the next local elections in the UK all political advertisers will have to be registered and all their advertisements will have to be made public on a register to be held for seven years. Furthermore, the number of people targeted, the amount of money spent and the age, gender and location of those people will all be made public. Can the Taoiseach or his party commit to having similar rules in advance of our local and European elections, or indeed a general election? Even if we do not get the legislation enacted in time, that is the new benchmark for transparency. Will the Taoiseach commit Fine Gael to making fully public the amount of money it is spending on Facebook, Google, YouTube and other platforms? Will the Taoiseach take into account in the new legislation what Facebook said yesterday about new rules? I agree with Deputy Martin and others that such legislation must be introduced immediately and in advance of us having any election.

We have seen how certain interest groups have attempted to manipulate elections here and internationally. It is very important that we address this matter urgently. I echo my colleagues' calls on the need for this matter to be addressed in advance of the next local and European elections. It is also important to ensure the electorate is provided with certainty as to the source of the advertisements placed online, most especially having regard to their authenticity given the volume of fake news that is out there. Deputy Martin pointed quite rightly to anti-vaccine conspiracies becoming prevalent online, which is something I have researched. While there have been responses, it is a matter the House should debate. I would appreciate very much an update from the Taoiseach on the public consultation process which is under way following the report of the interdepartmental group. Can we rely on the process to be completed in advance of the local and European elections? To hone in on one other matter, I note the need for advancements on the electoral register, in particular the need to bring it online, as echoed by Deputy Burton.

I suggest to Members that we take five minutes from the second group of questions, in which only two are listed, given that there are seven questions in this bunch. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I will certainly raise with the Minister of State, Deputy John Paul Phelan, the issues Deputy Burton raises on the format of the electoral register. I will ask the Minister of State to provide the Deputy with a more detailed response. All of us as public representatives want to have the register in a format which is usable as we go door to door. Some people now bring electronic devices with them as they go door to door but I know not everyone is doing so. As such, the register should be available in PDF format or another format which is accessible for people.

In response to Deputy Howlin's question, I note that it is unlikely we will have primary legislation in place before next May. However, that is not entirely within the control of the Government and will depend on the Houses also.

As regards online advertising by political parties, I had thought every party had to set out the amount spent on online advertising in its annual SIPO returns.

Fine Gael has actually refused to do it.

If that is not the case, we will be happy to do it on a voluntary basis. There is no difficulty doing that at all.

That is news.

Following a public consultation process, the Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht published a report in January 2016 containing a series of recommendations for the establishment of an electoral commission. These were based largely on the joint committee's own recommendations. The Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government is currently preparing a regulatory impact analysis on the establishment of a statutory electoral commission. The analysis is examining the costs, benefits and impacts of a number of options. Once the analysis is complete, the intention is for the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government to obtain Government approval regarding the functions, membership, accountability mechanisms and timelines for the commission's establishment. This will be followed by a public consultation in the final quarter of this year on the Government's proposals. The outcome of the consultation will inform the drafting of heads of a Bill.

As Deputies know, a reform of the electoral register is under way to allow people to join it online and so on. It is our intention to hold a referendum next May to extend the franchise in presidential elections to Irish citizens living outside the State.

That would require a new register of Irish citizens not living in the State to be established, but I am sure it could be done.

Any fundraising carried out by my party is carried out in accordance with the law. We accept no corporate donation of more than €200. In fact, we brought forward that law to break the link between business and politics-----

With fine results.

-----ensuring no donation of more than €200 could be made to any political party. I note that Deputy Mary Lou McDonald has raised this question. It concerns me that Sinn Féin may be using partition as an advantage in that regard because, unlike other parties, Sinn Féin is established both in the United Kingdom and Ireland-----

And the United States.

-----and the rules on corporate donations in Northern Ireland-----

There is nothing to stop Fine Gael from organising nationally. Both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil should do so.

-----and the United States are very different-----

There is big money there.

-----and much looser than they are here.

They are not. They are very stringent.

That creates a murkiness surrounding Sinn Féin's finances and the way in which it engages in political fundraising. What I would like to know from Sinn Féin is whether it accepts corporate donations of more than €200, which would not be permitted in this State.

A Cheann Comhairle, if he does not mind, will the Taoiseach give way?

Will the Taoiseach give way?

Whatever about the Taoiseach making a political charge against Sinn Féin and the way in which it operates politically, it is entirely wrong and factually incorrect to suggest there is something murky or illegal about its financing or fundraising. It is trebly regulated: in this jurisdiction, in Northern Ireland and in respect of moneys raised overseas.

I thank the Deputy. She has clarified the matter.

It is entirely legally compliant. I wish the matter to be clarified on the floor of the Dáil.

The Taoiseach has the floor.

I was more than happy to give way in the hope Deputy Mary Lou McDonald might answer my question.

Why? Is it questions to the leader of Sinn Féin now, rather than to the Taoiseach?

Will the Deputy please not interrupt the Taoiseach?

The defensiveness indicates that there is something to hide-----

There is nothing at all to hide, but the Taoiseach will not slander me or my colleagues with abandon.

The Deputy has made her point.

The Taoiseach can forget about doing so.

The question I asked was whether Sinn Féin, as a political party, accepted donations of more than €200 from any corporation. All other parties represented in this House do not. In co-operation with the Labour Party, we passed a law to ensure no party could receive a corporate donation of more than €200 in order to break the link between business and politics.

All of our funding is covered.

What I want to know is whether Sinn Féin applies this rule to its fundraising by its UK arm, accepts the spirit of this law and does not accept corporate donations of more than €200. It would set it apart from the other parties represented in this House if it were the only party active in this State that continued to accept corporate donations of more than €200. It may do so through its Northern Ireland entity, its UK entity or some kind of US entity, but there is no other party represented in this House that does that type of thing.

Everything is raised in compliance with the law.

Given that the Deputy asked a question about how my party raised funds, it is only legitimate for me to ask a similar question.

Which I note the Taoiseach did not answer.

The Taoiseach is expected to answer questions, not ask them.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle.

I shall go back to answering.

That would make for a refreshing change.

The public consultation process on the regulation of online advertising was launched on 21 September and views can be submitted up to 19 October. It is planned to hold the open policy forum at the end of November, after the presidential election and the inauguration of the President, to allow sufficient time for analysis of submissions. We do not think it would be appropriate to host the forum during a presidential election campaign. That is the reason for setting the date. In September the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland launched guidelines for the coverage of general, presidential, Seanad, local and EU elections. The guidelines set out requirements to be met by broadcast companies in their coverage of elections and which apply in addition to the rules in the BAI's code of fairness, objectivity and impartiality in coverage of news and current affairs. They provide guidance for broadcasters on the manner in which fairness, objectivity and impartiality may be achieved in their coverage. They are updated periodically by the BAI in advance of elections or referendums.

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