Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 17 October 2018
5. Deputy Clare Daly asked the Minister for Justice and Equality his views on the findings of the third interim disclosures tribunal report and its impact on plans for reform of An Garda Síochána; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42691/18]
View answerIt strikes me that the Minister does not acknowledge the stark points being made by Mr. Justice Charleton because if he did he would have noted the fact he referred to his role in, and the outcome of, the Morris tribunal. He said it was obvious that while structures had been superimposed on the police force, there was still trouble, the same kind of trouble identified in Morris, and, therefore, more structures are not the answer to the problem. Yet the Minister seems to be placing much on the new structures outlined by the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland.
I do not accept that at all. Let me make it clear that there can absolutely no ambiguity about the findings of the report. Mr. Justice Charleton does not mince his words. It is very clear about where serious failings took place, how they were allowed to happen and who allowed them to happen. These findings make very stark reading and we all owe a debt of gratitude to Sergeant Maurice McCabe for highlighting these failings.
As I have said, we have the report of Mr. Justice Charleton, we have the appointment of the new Garda Commissioner and we have the report on the Future of Policing in Ireland, which sets out clearly the recommendations for the structure and operation of what will be a modern 21st century police service. The report of Mr. Justice Charleton will strongly inform the Government's approach to building a police service. I will bring an implementation plan to Cabinet before the end of the year.
It is incumbent on all of us to examine this report in depth and to consider fully its findings and recommendations. I will do this as Minister for Justice and Equality. The Garda Commissioner, Tusla, the HSE and my colleague, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, will also examine this report to ensure that the necessary systems, procedures and practices are in place so as to prevent such issues that regrettably took place arising in the future.
As I said, the report requires careful consideration. I will comment on one aspect of the report at this time. Mr. Justice Charleton has reminded us of the obligations of the Garda, in particular: the obligation to be honest; to serve the people of Ireland; and to treat their obligation to the public as superior to any false sense that individual policemen and policewomen should stick up for each other. If those values had been lived, these events would not have taken place and, moreover, the organisation would have been capable of valuing and responding to self criticism. These fundamental values should be foremost in all our minds as public servants, and will very much inform the forthcoming and ongoing programme of change and modernisation within An Garda Síochána.
The point Charleton seemed to stress above all others in his recommendations is that structures alone are not enough. The question I put to the Minister was on how his report is going to impact the changes in our policing service. The Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland has put forward a number of ideas which are quite controversial. Key among the controversial ones is the emphasis on structures, in particular, moving away from the system that we were in the process of developing of external oversight initiated through the vehicle of the Policing Authority, albeit a vehicle which was not given sufficient legislative powers to really play that accountability role accurately, and replacing that with an internal governance body, which actually brings more power back internally inside An Garda Síochána. Surely, based on the bits of the Charleton report the Minister has read, he must see that model is in conflict with what Mr. Justice Charleton said, that oversight, scrutiny and accountability is at the heart of what we need to get at.
I agree oversight and scrutiny are very important so this culture change within An Garda Síochána needs to happen. I intend proceeding with the appointment of an independent chair to oversee the implementation of the 50 recommendations in the report of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland.
In order to be implemented, they will require a number of pieces of legislation and there will be ample opportunity for the House to debate in detail the respective legislative proposals, from the stages of preIegislative scrutiny to final enactment. I do not accept the point made by Deputy Daly about internal governance and an internal board. This proposal is for a board which is similar to those which exist right across the public sector and can be supportive of the Garda Commissioner in managing the programme of change.
This Oireachtas must take on board what the Charleton report said about the political response to tribunal reports in general. We all know there can be heated debate and furore about the setting up of tribunals, but little or no considered debate when the reports are published. In this instance we have seen allegations about what happened in private at the O'Higgins commission being treated by Deputy Daly and others as fact, even though we had set up a tribunal to establish the facts. We have a number of reports and recommendations from the Charleton tribunal and I acknowledge that work, which sits neatly beside the 50 recommendations contained in the report of the Commission on the Future of Policing. We will now proceed with the implementation progressively and we will have an opportunity to debate it, as is normal practice.
We certainly will. The Minister will have noted that Mr. Justice Charleton said the audio and the transcript of O'Higgins should have been produced, something I and Deputy Wallace have been calling for for a long time but which the Minister and his predecessor ignored.
An Garda Síochána is not a semi-State body and the idea that it would have a board of management, such as with a semi-State body, is ludicrous. The Commission on the Future of Policing recommended a move away from external scrutiny. This was beginning to work very well with the Policing Authority but the authority did not have sufficient legislative power. A number of the 50 recommendations are, basically, common sense but the Minister said he wanted a new complaints body, while the commission recommends a renamed GSOC with the powers that body has long advocated for as necessary to do its job properly. This is precisely the point made by Charleton. The legislation has been headed up and we could do that now because it would immediately improve the way complaints are handled. Indeed, we could have done it two years ago.
Structures alone do not change things. We have the vehicle to improve the structures that are there currently. As Charleton said, however, the bigger body of work is what he calls the mentality problem.
I am very keen to ensure we can proceed with legislative change on the matter of the current Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and I will do that in due course. I was pleased that, in last week's budget, a further sum of money was allocated for the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission to allow it to expand and develop in accordance with its business plan. I expect progress in that regard shortly. In the proposals in the report of the Commission on the Future of Policing, oversight will be streamlined within the new bodies. The new body, the policing and community safety oversight commission, PCSOC, will have three functions: oversight of An Garda Síochána through inspections etc, research and promoting development of local policing accountability structures. These are all things that will form the subject matter of the debate when we see the recommendations as taken on board by Government. I expect we will be back to this very shortly.
