European Council Meetings

Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 21 November 2018

Wednesday, 21 November 2018

Questions (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

Brendan Howlin

Question:

1. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his attendance at the October 2018 European Council. [43431/18]

Micheál Martin

Question:

2. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on bilaterals that he held while at the European Council meeting on 17 and 18 October 2018; and the issues that were discussed. [43487/18]

Micheál Martin

Question:

3. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if immigration was discussed at the October 2018 European Council meeting; and if he contributed to same. [43489/18]

Joan Burton

Question:

4. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his attendance at the European Council Brexit meeting on 17 October 2018. [43844/18]

Joan Burton

Question:

5. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the President of the European Parliament on 18 October 2018. [43845/18]

Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

6. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on meetings or discussions he had with his counterparts at the European Council on 17 October 2018. [43913/18]

Micheál Martin

Question:

7. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he met Chancellor Angela Merkel at the October 2018 European Council meeting; and if they discussed Brexit. [43888/18]

Michael Moynihan

Question:

8. Deputy Michael Moynihan asked the Taoiseach if he has spoken to Chancellor Merkel since her announcement of not seeking re-election in 2021. [45637/18]

Michael Moynihan

Question:

9. Deputy Michael Moynihan asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the discussions on cybersecurity at the most recent European Council meeting. [45638/18]

Michael Moynihan

Question:

10. Deputy Michael Moynihan asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the discussions at the European Council in relation to the Canada plus arrangement in the context of the Brexit negotiations. [46803/18]

Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

11. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagement with the President of the European Parliament, Mr. Antonio Tajani. [46874/18]

Oral answers (14 contributions)

The Taoiseach

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 11, inclusive, together.

I attended a series of European Council meetings in Brussels on Wednesday 17 October, and Thursday, 18 October. The regular meeting of the Council on the morning of 18 October focused on migration, internal security and external relations issues.

On migration, we discussed the implementation of decisions agreed at the June European Council and at the informal summit in Salzburg in September. We exchanged views on the external aspects of migration, including the importance of combatting people-smuggling networks and strengthening our co-operation with partner countries. Chancellor Kurz of Austria, which currently holds the EU Presidency, also provided an update on efforts to reform the common EU asylum system and the prospects for progress in this context.

On internal security, our discussions focused on recent cyberattacks, cybersecurity and the need to protect the Union's democratic systems to combat disinformation ahead of the 2019 European elections. On external relations, we discussed our broader relationship with Africa. We welcomed the decision to convene an EU-African Union high-level forum in December, and the first EU-Arab League summit in Egypt in February 2019.

We also discussed climate change, agreeing on the importance of reaching the goals and implementing the rules outlined in the Paris Agreement and on the need for ambition in advance of the COP24 in Poland in December. This was followed by a euro summit, where we exchanged views on financial issues ahead of the December European Council.

I had a bilateral meeting with Prime Minister May on 17 October and with the President of the European Parliament, Mr. Antonio Tajani on 18 October. I did not have a formal bilateral meeting with Chancellor Merkel, but we did speak on a number of occasions during the two days. I also engaged informally with my other EU counterparts in the margins of the European Council.

In advance of a meeting of the 27 member states in Article 50 format on the evening of 17 October, Prime Minister May outlined her views to EU leaders and gave the UK perspective on the Brexit negotiations. The 27 EU leaders reaffirmed our full confidence in Mr. Michel Barnier as our chief negotiator and urged him to continue his efforts to reach an agreement, in accordance with the guidelines previously agreed by the European Council. President Tusk expressed his readiness to convene a special summit in November if and when Mr. Barnier reported that decisive progress has been achieved.

At the Article 50 meeting and in my bilateral with Prime Minister May, I stressed the need to protect the Good Friday Agreement and the Northern Ireland peace process. I said that I hoped the future relationship between the EU and the UK would be as close, comprehensive and ambitious as possible. I also stressed that it was essential to ensure that a legally robust backstop, which must apply in all circumstances, was set out clearly in the withdrawal agreement. In my bilateral meeting with President Tajani and in my engagement with other EU counterparts I expressed appreciation for their ongoing strong solidarity on this issue.

Deputies will be aware that since the October European Council, agreement has been reached at negotiator level on the draft withdrawal agreement and an outline of the joint political declaration on the future relationship that fully delivers our negotiating objectives.

An Ceann Comhairle

As there are 11 questions in this group, we will need to stick to the allocated time.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I thank the Taoiseach for his comprehensive reply. We will have an opportunity later to deal with the greatest focus for Ireland in European matters, which is the ongoing Brexit situation. I want to talk about discussions at the European Council concerning migration and internal security. In regard to migration, the Taoiseach will be aware that the last remaining rescue vessel operating in the Mediterranean, the Aquarius, is now stuck in Marseilles because of an arrest warrant for alleged pollution issued by the Italian authorities. As far as I am aware, there are now no NGO-operated rescue vessels. Médecins sans Frontières reports that hundreds of migrants are drowning as a result of this. Is there a rescue process in place? Does the Taoiseach have a view on the policy, to which we have committed naval vessels for several years to ensure the safety of people who are so desperate that they take to the sea in completely unsuitable craft, putting themselves and their children at mortal risk? It is often at the behest of people smugglers. There is no escaping that reality.

Do we have an attitude to it and what are we going to do about it?

On general migration, obviously, I welcome the holding of the Africa summit, but what is our policy? What is the European Union's policy on migration? There are strong views being expressed by the new Italian Government and some eastern European countries, but is there an integrated migration and asylum policy emerging? Can we have a real debate about it and what is Ireland's participation in it?

I have two brief questions about the security issue. First, will the Taoiseach specify exactly what measures we will take to protect our democracy in the context of European elections? What was decided on the issue? Second, what was the Taoiseach's response to the comments of the German Chancellor, Dr. Merkel, on the creation of a European army?

Deputy Micheál Martin

As there will be a full debate later today on the draft withdrawal agreement, I will leave most of the points I want to make on it until then. However, I would like to ask the Taoiseach to comment on the reports that the British Prime Minister, Mrs. May, is discussing in Brussels a new backstop text which she hopes will appease some of her Brexiteer backbenchers and Ministers. Specifically, can the Taoiseach reassure us that nothing has been discussed which would impact on the substance of the draft withdrawal agreement, on which we will be voting later this afternoon?

As the Taoiseach is aware, the French President, Mr. Macron, and the German Chancellor, Dr. Merkel, have reached agreement in principle on the creation of a eurozone-specific budget which would give the eurozone greater ability to respond to a downturn. This is a reasonable proposal which Ireland should strongly support. The lack of such a funding mechanism was at the root of much of the financial crisis and a real issue in terms of the capacity of the eurozone to respond to the global recession and financial crisis that began in 2008 and which had a significant impact on Ireland. It has also been reported that the Taoiseach is joining with other countries in opposing the proposal from Dr. Merkel and Mr. Macron. Will the Taoiseach outline whether it is true that Ireland is opposing this essential reform and, if that is the case, why Ireland is taking up a position as one of the most conservative countries on the EU budget when we should be one of its biggest supporters?

Deputy Joan Burton

There are two points about which I want to ask the Taoiseach. The media carry extensive suggestions today that the maximum facilitation, "Max Fac", model is back on the table in terms of not being able to end the backstop early and that it is an olive branch the British Prime Minister, Mrs. May, is proposing to offer to Eurosceptics in the UK parliament. I merely want to ask the Taoiseach whether that particular element of the long discussions that have taken place in the last period has been discussed at the Council in the context of potential discussions to ward off a very hard Brexit.

I understand that at the Council meeting PESCO was discussed in the context of quite ambitious proposals for significant increases in military spending, not necessarily in the context of a European army as put forward by the Taoiseach's colleague, the French President, Mr. Macron, but more in the sense that all European armies would invest heavily in modern advanced weapons systems. I would like to know whether, in fact, the Taoiseach has signed Ireland up to a broadening and deepening of PESCO, in particular, given the potential budget to be spent on armaments by European countries.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach was reported as having made at the weekend what I consider to be extremely alarming comments on the possibility of a no-deal Brexit. Frankly, they confirm some of the worst fears of Solidarity-People Before Profit about assurances the Taoiseach, Mr. Michel Barnier and the President of the European Commission, Mr. Juncker, have given on the issue of the Border. The Taoiseach was reported as having said:

I think in a no-deal scenario it would be very difficult to avoid a hard border. As Ireland [is] remaining part of the European Union, we would no doubt be required to implement European law...

If there is no deal, it sounds to me as if the Taoiseach is saying the European Union will require us to impose a hard border to protect the Single Market and that he is willing to do so. If that is not the case, I would like clarification on the matter. If it is the case, it is a very significant development. I have always feared that it is the case and sought multiple assurances that in the event that there is no deal, we will simply tell the European Union and Britain that we will not be co-operating in any way in the installation of a hard border. I would go further. If the Taoiseach believes this is a real possibility, he should be arguing that if that is the threat, there should be a Border poll, North and South, to give people the opportunity to make a decision democratically on whether that is what they want. I am interested in hearing the Taoiseach's response to that question. It will have a considerable bearing on the outcome of the vote that will be taken on the motion we will discuss tonight.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two further questioners. I propose we allocate an extra ten minutes for this batch of questions.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

There are 11 questions in this batch.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

With reference to the discussion at the European Council on the integrity of the electoral system and the risk of undue influence exerted by unaccountable money on social media platforms, there will be a visit by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment to Westminster next week to discuss the issue. Companies in the United Kingdom such as Facebook have agreed to introduce their own accounting mechanisms to show where political advertising is taking place in order that it can be clearly identified, with the amount of money spent being made clear. If we cannot have the legislation on which Deputy Lawless and others have been working to ensure such transparency, will the Taoiseach push the social media companies here to introduce the same mechanisms in order that there will not be undue influence exerted in local and European Parliament elections or the next general election by such spending on such platforms?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach must clarify two matters for us. First, he must clarify whether the maximum facilitation proposal that was rejected by the European Union for sound reasons is being advanced again? Second, will he clarify for us whether any other similar proposition is being advanced that would hollow out or offer something less than that being afforded in the current backstop? I agree with Deputy Boyd Barrett that it is not good enough for the Taoiseach to be an observer from afar and speculating on the prospect of a hard border. There cannot be a hard border on the island. That must remain our position. In the event that there is, where stands the Taoiseach's thinking on a referendum on Irish unity to remove it?

I echo the alarm about the talk of a European army - it is not new - being advanced in a proactive, almost aggressive, way by the French President, Mr. Macron, and others. The State is still, at least nominally, militarily neutral. Has the Taoiseach signed up? Has he an understanding with Mr. Macron, the German Chancellor, Dr. Merkel, or anybody else on his position on the prospect of a European army?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputies for their questions. As I understand it, under the international law of the sea, vessels have an obligation to rescue people in distress. If a vessel is in distress and people are lost at sea or at risk of drowning-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

If one happens to come upon them.

The Taoiseach

-----there is an international obligation on nearby vessels to engage in search and rescue. Of course, we have done this. Naval Service vessels have been involved in search and rescue missions in the Mediterranean, as have many other navies.

We must also bear in mind that in doing so, we must not do anything that helps human trafficking. Part of the mission's mandate in the Mediterranean is to disrupt human trafficking. Human traffickers are putting very vulnerable people in what are essentially large dinghies - unseaworthy vessels - that they know full well will sink long before they get to the coast of Europe. We need to make sure that nothing we do in terms of search and rescue encourages or assists human traffickers in putting people at risk by putting them in vessels in that way, which is exactly what has been happening. Very vulnerable people who have trekked across Africa to get to the coast of Libya are being put in unseaworthy vessels by human traffickers with the expectation that they will be rescued by European navies or NGO vessels. We must always bear that mind in what we do because those people's lives are being put at risk and we should not facilitate that in any way.

In respect of the EU policy on migration, it is fair to say that there is a lot of division around the table. Countries have different perspectives on how we should manage migration. Everyone around the table with the exception of the UK, which is leaving the EU, is very much in favour of freedom of movement. Nobody is questioning freedom of movement within the EU. Austria, Hungary, Poland and Italy all support freedom of movement within the EU. What many of them object to is migration from outside the EU or illegal migration involving people arriving and not going through the correct ports, not filing documents on arrival or doing the things we expect people to do.

There is agreement on three things. First, we need greater co-operation with the transit countries and countries of origin. These are countries on the north African coast and Turkey, which are largely countries of transit, and countries in the Middle East and Africa that are source countries for much of this migration. People are leaving these countries because they do not have democracy, civil and human rights and economic opportunity. The best way to deal with uncontrolled migration such as this is to bring about democracy, security and economic opportunity in those countries. We do not see huge numbers of people from Asian countries coming to Europe in the same way, largely because so many people have been lifted out of poverty in those countries through economic development. That is the first principle we apply. Ireland is very much committed to that through increases in funding for international development, in particular an increase of more than €100 million in 2019.

The second area on which there is agreement is the need to enhance external border security, for example, the border between Bulgaria and Turkey, and security in the Mediterranean through agreements with Morocco and Libya, for example, to assist them to build up their coastguard, and an agreement with Egypt.

The third area on which most, although not all, agree is showing a degree of solidarity and burden sharing by being willing to accept migrants from other countries. Ireland has done this on a series of occasions when it was asked to take some migrants by Malta, Italy and Greece. This is an example of us showing solidarity with countries on the front line.

I have had no discussions with President Macron or Chancellor Merkel regarding a European army. Obviously, I have heard what they have to say about it but they have not approached us to join a European army and I do not anticipate that they will do so. Ireland will not participate in a European army or join NATO. However, we decided through a resolution of this House to participate in PESCO, which is structured European co-operation around defence and security. We are doing this on a case-by-case basis, which is very much to our advantage. Ireland is a small country with a small military. We do not have much to offer the EU in terms of military prowess or might but there are lots of things we can offer. These include humanitarian assistance and training, which the Naval Service is doing with Operation Sophia, participation in peacekeeping operations, which we have done very well for decades, and assisting in European security in areas like cyberterrorism and terrorism intelligence. This is where we can make a contribution. I do not envisage us joining a European army or being asked to join one. Our position as a neutral, non-aligned state is well understood by our European partners and the same goes for Austria and Finland, which are very much in the same position as us.

I hear a statement being thrown around all the time that somehow we have committed to increasing our defence budget to 2% of GDP. We have not done so and will not do so. However, our defence budget will increase over the next couple of years because of pay rises for Defence Forces personnel, improvements to barracks and the purchase of new equipment, namely, the ships, aircraft and vehicles we need. There will, therefore, be an increase in defence spending and I stand over such increases next year and in the years to come. However, they will not be anywhere close to 2% of our GDP, which would be around €6 billion. They will not be anywhere near a fraction of that.

Regarding the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland and the backstop, we have had no discussions with the Commission or the UK Government about revisions to the text since it was stabilised last week. It is important to remember the format that is in the December joint report, that is, options A, B and C. Option A is the future relationship, option B concerns specific solutions the UK may propose and option C is the backstop. What has come into the mix since then is option D, which is an extension of the transition period. Whatever happens, what is required at the end of all of that is a backstop that is legally operative and applies unless and until an alternative solution supersedes it. I want to state again on the record of the House that it is our intention and commitment as a Government to work with the United Kingdom and the European Union to come up with a future relationship that does not require the backstop to be invoked in full or in part and, in the event that it is invoked, it will only be for a temporary period as a bridge to a future relationship.

We are not opposed outright to the proposal for a eurozone budget, nor are we backing it. It is something to which we will give consideration but we will need to see how the proposal develops. A eurozone budget could be useful. In a time of economic crisis, it could operate as an economic and fiscal stabiliser. For example, if a proportion of unemployment benefits were paid for on a European level, countries with high levels of unemployment would benefit from that during periods of recession and they would help out other countries when they do not have high levels of unemployment. One thing we need to be very careful about is anything that may impact on our sovereignty, particularly our tax sovereignty. If there is a European budget with money in it to be spent, that money must be raised. We would be concerned that any proposal for a eurozone budget may suggest imposing Europe-wide taxes, which we could not accept. We are entering into discussions on a eurozone budget with an understandable degree of scepticism. We need to see the detail of what is being proposed, or not even that. We need to get a better understanding of it before we can agree to it.