Richard Boyd Barrett
Question:12. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with Ms Arlene Foster. [43455/18]
View answerWednesday, 21 November 2018
Questions (12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18)
Micheál Martin
Question:13. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Ms Arlene Foster; and the issues that were discussed. [43486/18]
View answer
Joan Burton
Question:14. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the DUP leader, Ms Arlene Foster, on 15 October 2018. [43843/18]
View answer
Brendan Howlin
Question:15. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the leader of the DUP, Mrs. Arlene Foster. [44888/18]
View answerMicheál Martin
Question:16. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he has met or spoken with Mrs. Arlene Foster and Mrs. Michelle O'Neill since the October EU Council meeting. [45622/18]
View answerBrendan Howlin
Question:17. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the leader of the SDLP. [48204/18]
View answerMicheál Martin
Question:18. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he has spoken or met Mrs. Arlene Foster since the draft withdrawal treaty was published. [48378/18]
View answerOral answers (19 contributions)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 12 to 18, inclusive, together.
I met the leader of the DUP, Mrs. Arlene Foster, on 15 October when we discussed many issues, including the current political situation in Northern Ireland and Brexit. I emphasised the Government's full commitment to the Good Friday Agreement and our continuing determination to secure the effective operation of all of its institutions. We discussed what could be done to get the institutions in Northern Ireland up and running again. I reiterated to Mrs. Foster that the Government wants to put a political process in place that can secure an agreement on the operation of the devolved institutions and that we will continue to engage with the British Government and the political parties in Northern Ireland to seek urgent progress with that in the period immediately ahead. We agreed that we can continue to build on existing practical North-South co-operation. We also discussed Brexit, including negotiations on the backstop to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland.
The Tánaiste and I met Sinn Féin, the SDLP, the Alliance Party and the Green Party on 15 November to brief them on the draft EU-UK withdrawal agreement. We had a good discussion on the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland and considered how the backstop arrangements guarantee that there will be no hard border on the island of Ireland in any circumstances. We also noted that these arrangements offer the opportunity for Northern Ireland businesses to have unfettered access to both British and EU markets. We agreed to meet again in a similar format.
The Taoiseach stated that it was agreed that under no circumstances would there be a hard border. If that is his view, he did not say how he could have been reported as saying that in a no-deal scenario, it would be very difficult to avoid a hard border.
As Ireland is remaining part of the European Union, we would no doubt be required to implement European law. Will the Taoiseach clarify that statement? He continually says that we are doing everything not to impose a hard border, but in his statement he appeared to imply that there are circumstances - a no Brexit deal - in which he would have to impose a hard border because the EU would require him to do so. This deserves clarification.
News has just broken in Belfast that Bombardier is to cut its workforce by 500, which is a pretty devastating blow for the area. We might have been able to assist by buying from Bombardier desperately needed buses for the Dublin Bus fleet, which is way below what it should be. That aside, did the Taoiseach suggest to Mrs. Arlene Foster that she would be better off worrying about the potential economic damage to people in the North if such a border were to be erected and that she is playing a dangerous game in the politics she is engaging in around this issue?
On the previous occasion we discussed the breakdown of relations between the Government and the DUP, the Taoiseach said that the relations were fine. Does he still believe that relations between the Government and the DUP are fine and what efforts has he made in recent months to persuade the DUP that its rejection of the withdrawal agreement is fundamentally wrong? I have always argued that Northern Ireland should get the best of both worlds, and immediately after the referendum on Brexit in a speech made in the North I argued for an economic zone for the North through which it would have unfettered access to the British market and would still have access to the Single Market and remain within the customs union. This would be ideal for Northern Ireland and it would give it a badly needed fillip. Essentially, the agreement that has been reached gives Northern Ireland the best of both worlds.
The DUP has overreacted to the deal in seeing a constitutional threat where none exists because the Good Friday Agreement stands notwithstanding the withdrawal agreement and this provides the basis for the evolution of the three relationships, as encompassed by the Good Friday Agreement, which is the essential core genius of it in many respects. The DUP in so doing is standing against the majority opinion in Northern Ireland, not just politically, but in respect of business and working people, in terms of what is best for the North. It is at times like this that a lack of trust and strong relations has an impact. Will the Taoiseach set out his plans to do something new to rebuild relations?
On the fundamental issue of the suspension of the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement, we have been hearing for months about a new political initiative, but there has been no obvious movement on it. What I am hearing outside of formal channels is that no effort will be made in this regard until the Brexit issue has been resolved. Will the Taoiseach confirm if this is true, if he expects to announce an initiative in this regard, and when he last discussed this matter with the British Prime Minister, Mrs May? Will he also set out how regulatory alignment in Northern Ireland will be possible in the absence of devolved government and a devolved Assembly?
In the context of the Taoiseach's discussions with Mrs. Arlene Foster, the issue of the maximum facilitation - “max fac” - which we discussed here and has been largely sidelined up to now, is being widely touted by Downing Street as being backup for consideration to appeal to Eurosceptics in the UK Houses of the Parliament, which includes a significant number of DUP members such as Mr. Nigel Dodds and Mr. Ian Paisley Jnr. There are no nationalist members in the Houses of the Parliament so we have only one set of voices there representing Northern Ireland, which at this historic time is a weakness in terms of Irish representation in Westminster. Did the Taoiseach get a sense from Mrs. Foster, on behalf of her party, that in the event of a fresh offer on maximum facilitation the DUP would be inclined to explore it because that might offer some possibilities?
The Taoiseach said that the border is the border in the event of a hard crash-out and that is the way it is in terms of it being the border of the European Union. In that context, the Taoiseach has on previous occasions referenced the recruitment of customs officers to facilitate the changes coming down the line for our ports and airports. Will he advise what progress has been made in regard to the recruitment of additional customs officers and what progress, if any, has been made in identifying technological mechanisms for checking fleet movements and so on?
I assume that the Taoiseach welcomes the statements and new position of the Ulster Farmers Union and business interests in the North that they welcome the Barnier agreement.
What are the Taoiseach's plans for the re-establishment of the Assembly and the Executive in the North? Prior to the summer recess he indicated that there would be an initiative in the autumn. We are now decisively moving into the winter and there is no word of any sustainable initiative.
Nobody should be surprised at the DUP's rejection of the Barnier deal. I urge Members to remember that last February the DUP similarly rejected a viable accommodation to restore power-sharing institutions in the North. This is the backdrop to all of this and the political acoustic of the moment. Dinner arrangements aside, what solid proposal does the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste have in terms of a roadmap back to sustainable power-sharing?
At the urging of Sinn Féin, the SDLP and others, the Taoiseach convened the intergovernmental conference but it has not been utilised as a springboard to resolve the outstanding issues and get us back on track. What is the Taoiseach's plan and when will he announce it?
I call the Taoiseach to respond.
The Ceann Comhairle omitted to call me.
Mea maxima culpa.
I did not want to interrupt Deputy McDonald. In regard to the dialogue that is taking place with the DUP and the Taoiseach's meeting with Mrs. Foster, it is crystal clear to all of us who are desperately struggling to make the best of the Brexit negotiations that it is a real liability for the process that there are not functioning institutions in Northern Ireland. They were never more urgently needed. The lack of these institutions for the past year has been a desperate gap in terms of the capacity of the voice of Ireland to be heard. Notwithstanding the successful work done by the Government and our diplomatic staff in that regard, the absence of a coherent voice from Northern Ireland throughout this process has been extremely debilitating in terms of a coherent voice from the island of Ireland as a whole.
As was referred to, I am conscious of the positive voices now coming from the Ulster Farmers Union and business in Northern Ireland that have surprised some. Now that we are at the end of the process, people are speaking out about their own self-interest and the interests of their people. I would be interested to hear how we might assist in this process. This could best be done by direct dialogue. Any notion that the deal is in Ireland's interest or that we are in any way triumphant about it would be very unhelpful.
Taoiseach's questions are often not directly answered, but Deputy Boyd Barrett has asked a question that deserves a direct answer in this sense. While we hope this will not happen, if the United Kingdom departs with no deal, what people have described as a hard Brexit, the Single Market must be protected. If it is not defined on the island of Ireland, it will be defined in the Irish Sea. We must be realistic about addressing this issue, and I would welcome a frank answer from the Taoiseach to Deputy Boyd Barrett's question.
Once again, the Government has made no preparation or plan whatsoever for the installation of a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, lest anyone think so. I do not want to speculate too much on a no-deal scenario because the truth is that no one really knows for sure what would happen if there were one. If there were one, no one knows how long that no deal would last. It is my view that if we did end up with a no-deal situation, we would find ourselves having to negotiate a no-deal deal, as it were, quite soon thereafter. A no-deal situation might continue for a few weeks. It might not last more than a few weeks.
It could be a disastrous few weeks, though.
The Taoiseach should not have said what he said, then.
It certainly could be a disastrous few weeks. This is why we must think about these things. No one knows for sure, however, what would happen in a scenario in which the UK were to crash out of the European Union without a deal. We do know the UK would have certain obligations under the rules of World Trade Organization, WTO, for example, but we do not even know if it will be able to join the WTO. Deputies will know the UK has had difficulties joining aspects of the WTO because of the objections of Moldova, so this is very much uncharted territory.
We should not see protection of the Single Market through the prism of the demand of a kind of unreasonable EU overlord. It is our Single Market, and the whole basis behind it is that we are aligned in respect of regulations on health and safety, labour rights, workers' rights, state aid and competition. This is not a bad thing. The Single Market is a good thing for Ireland because it ensures not only that we have free trade all across the European Union but also that there is a level playing field and certain standards. We should want to protect the Single Market, therefore, but this cannot involve the installation of a hard border or physical infrastructure on the Irish Border.
I think that in a no-deal scenario we would find ourselves having to come up with a deal. We would have to come to some kind of agreement on regulations and customs to avoid a hard border in order that the UK would honour its obligations as a member of the WTO and that we would continue to honour our obligations as an EU member. The point I was making is that if we had no deal, we would find ourselves having to find a deal very quickly. Why then put our countries and people through this when we now have a deal on the table, a deal that was negotiated by 28 member states, has been agreed by the UK Cabinet and, I hope, this Dáil will endorse today? Why go through this scenario when we now have a proposal on the table that works?
Obviously, the best outcome would be for the UK not to leave the European Union at all, but the UK has ruled that out. An alternative solution would be for the UK to stay in the Single Market and the customs union, staying in the European Economic Area, EEA, but it has ruled that out. Another solution would be a Canada plus model for Britain with a Northern Ireland-specific backstop, but it has ruled that out too. We are not the ones who have been ruling out solutions all along. We are the ones who have been working very hard to find a solution. We have that solution now, it is on the table, I hope the Dáil will endorse it today, and I hope and expect the European Council will endorse it on Sunday. Let us see what happens in Westminster afterwards. I think I used the term "very difficult" last week. We in politics do things that are very difficult all the time. It was very difficult to repeal the eighth amendment but it was done. I was a little surprised to see "very difficult" interpreted as "inevitable" because very difficult things are never inevitable.
Regarding my meeting with Mrs. Arlene Foster, as Deputies know, she is someone I know very well. She was my counterpart when the institutions were up and running, and we understand each other very well. Much of the discussion we had when we last met concerned practical co-operation between North and South on transport projects, healthcare and tourism. Mrs. Foster has a particular interest in children's health and the use of our hospitals here to provide cardiac surgery to children from the North. I have a particular interest in what we are doing in Altnagelvin about radiotherapy and primary percutaneous coronary intervention, PCI, for people living in Donegal. Deputy Micheál Martin talks about the role we are playing in trying to persuade the DUP to sign up to this agreement, but this misunderstands matters. When one engages a lot with DUP representatives, one must understand that they are very much a hardline unionist party, and they would not be annoyed at being described as such. This means they are not well disposed to taking advice from Irish Governments or being persuaded by Irish Governments or Irish political parties, so any dialogue in which one engages must be respectful and sensitive. I know that when Deputy Martin met Mrs. Foster, he tried to persuade her that Northern Ireland should have the best of both worlds, but this totally misunderstands her view. It is not the best of both worlds the DUP wants. The DUP holds very firm to the view that the most important thing is the integrity of the United Kingdom, the precious union. If this means a lesser world, that is acceptable provided that the integrity of the union is upheld.
What we have tried to do, therefore, as best we can is to say to people in Northern Ireland, particularly those in the unionist community, that what we are proposing and what the EU and the UK Government are now proposing should not be seen in constitutional terms as a threat to the United Kingdom or any effort to separate Northern Ireland from Great Britain. Written into the Irish protocol, the backstop, are two provisions, one respecting the principle of consent, that the constitutional status of Northern Ireland cannot be changed unless the majority of people in Northern Ireland want it to change, the other respecting the fact that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, respecting the territorial integrity of the UK.
This is why calls for Border polls, whether from Sinn Féin or People Before Profit, are really unhelpful at present. What we are trying to say to unionists in Northern Ireland is that at the heart of the Good Friday Agreement is acceptance of the principle of consent, acceptance not only that Northern Ireland is part of the UK, but also that Northern Ireland is different and needs special arrangements on occasion. Special arrangements in respect of customs and regulations for industrial goods should not be seen as a constitutional threat. When people start to talk about Border polls, however, it really undermines the work we are trying to do to convince people that that is not what this is about.
The Taoiseach should not talk about hard borders then. Then talk of Border polls would not undermine that work.
I have always thought that when it comes to Northern Ireland, we need to listen to the DUP and respect its views but also acknowledge that there are other parties too - Sinn Féin, the SDLP, the Green Party, Alliance - that represent half, perhaps the majority, of people in Northern Ireland. I refer to the UUP as well. The leader of the UUP was at our party conference last weekend-----
Do not forget People Before Profit.
And People Before Profit. I note and very much welcome the fact that non-political voices in Northern Ireland have now started to speak, and speak largely in favour of this agreement. I refer to the Ulster Farmers Union, representatives of which I have met in recent weeks and to whom I have spoken about this. I have met the business community in Northern Ireland several times. It has also come out broadly in favour of the agreement. I am not sure whether trade unions have formally given a view yet but-----
They should do so today.
-----they may do so today, and I imagine they would be broadly in favour of the agreement. I refer to NGOs as well. What is really missing, though, and Deputy Howlin is absolutely right about this, is a Northern Ireland Executive, a First Minister and a deputy First Minister. When a person is in the role of First Minister or deputy First Minister, he or she is much more than a party leader. That person is required to take into account all the people in Northern Ireland. It is a real shame that the Executive and the Assembly have not been there at this very significant time. We had very close contact with the UK Government about what we can do to get the institutions up and running again. The institutions that involve the Governments are up and running.
The British-Irish Council is working well. I was at a meeting of the council only last week on the Isle of Man. There have been two meetings of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. The institutions that are not working are those that relate to Northern Ireland, unfortunately.
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