Joan Burton
Question:4. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his discussions with the German Chancellor, Ms Angela Merkel, in January 2019. [1357/19]
View answerTuesday, 22 January 2019
Questions (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
Richard Boyd Barrett
Question:5. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent telephone call with Chancellor Merkel. [1384/19]
View answer
Mary Lou McDonald
Question:6. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent conversation with Chancellor Merkel. [2491/19]
View answer
Brendan Howlin
Question:7. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent discussions with Chancellor Merkel. [2544/19]
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Eamon Ryan
Question:8. Deputy Eamon Ryan asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent telephone call with the German Chancellor, Ms Angela Merkel. [2737/19]
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Micheál Martin
Question:9. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he has spoken to or met the German Chancellor, Ms Angela Merkel, since the vote in the House of Commons on the withdrawal treaty was defeated. [3041/19]
View answerOral answers (16 contributions)
Questions Nos. 4 to 9, inclusive, are being grouped. The six relevant Members are in the House. I suggest that each have one minute when asking a question; otherwise we will be eating into the time for the next group of questions.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 to 9, inclusive, together.
I spoke by telephone to Chancellor Merkel on Thursday, 3 January. A focus of our discussion was my attendance at the CSU meeting in Bavaria but the main focus turned out to be Brexit and the importance of the withdrawal agreement agreed between the European Union and United Kingdom last November being ratified. We agreed that while we would be ready to offer additional reassurances and clarifications to the United Kingdom, there could be no renegotiation or contradiction of the withdrawal agreement, including on the backstop.
We reiterated our commitment to starting negotiations on the future relationship as soon as possible after the United Kingdom's withdrawal and our wish for that relationship to be as close, comprehensive and ambitious as the United Kingdom wants it to be.
We also discussed our work on preparedness, including contingency planning for a no-deal scenario, recognising that the closer we get to 29 March without ratification of the withdrawal agreement, the more urgent the work becomes. I expect to meet or speak to Chancellor Merkel again later this week.
I thank the Taoiseach. Has he and Ms Merkel had any discussion on the possible time extension under Article 50 and the withdrawal mechanism? With regard to the requirements of the UK's unwritten constitution, a lot of time would now be needed to put into effect any of the options being canvassed by Ms May as potential solutions. She changes from time to time, as does the main option. If, however, there were to be a Norway-style deal or some kind of EFTA arrangement, which would not involve the full withdrawal agreement, which was referred to by the Taoiseach, what would be the timeline required to put it into effect and to pass in the United Kingdom the legislation necessary to allow it to happen? If such an arrangement were put on the table, would the Germans, for example, support an extension of the time under Article 50?
The comments by Mr. Margaritis Schinas of the European Commission to the effect that Ireland will see a new hard border if Britain fails to approve the Brexit withdrawal agreement are extremely alarming and may suggest that the mask of EU solidarity with Ireland over preventing a hard border on this island is slipping a little. Equally worrying is the fact that the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Coveney, said again today that without the withdrawal agreement, it will be difficult to stop a hard border. I would really like the Taoiseach to explain these comments. Who will put up this border? What does that mean? The agreement would seem to be bit of a dead letter at the moment but surely we have to make it absolutely clear to Ms May and the European Union that under no circumstances, irrespective of whether there is a deal, are we accepting a border. I would like to know what discussion the Taoiseach has had with the European Commission and Ms Merkel, or any other EU leader, on the suggestions that somehow a border will erect itself in the case of there being no deal.
On the same issue, it is important to clarify that we cannot wish a border away. I have said to the Taoiseach that, as a matter of simple logic, we seek the backstop to avoid a hardening of the Border. Therefore, as a matter of simple logic, if there is no backstop the Border hardens. It is not just a case of saying we are not doing it because it is not just about infrastructure; it is also about standards, regulations, customs and tariffs. If the Border hardens, the international rules kick in. That is how it is.
I am no flag-bearer for the European Union but we need to deal with the facts. The danger is very real indeed and I take the view that the remedy must lie first with the British. They need to come up with the goods that honour their pledges not to undermine the Good Friday Agreement and not to see a hardening of the Border. They may not do so and we may have a crash. In those circumstances, the Taoiseach could do worse than discuss with Ms Merkel and our German colleagues the experience of German reunification.
In the event of a crash and a hardening of the Border, which we cannot wish or shout away, there will be an obligation on any Government in Dublin worthy of the name to prepare for constitutional change. If we cannot mitigate the Border or avoid the worst excesses of the damage of Brexit, then we have to move to remove the Border, democratically, peacefully, by discussion and, ideally, by consensus. This is why the Taoiseach should establish a forum on unity and speak to our German friends for guidance in this regard.
Deputy Howlin has one minute.
I will take the same-----
No, you did not actually, because the clock ran on.
I said I will take the same time as everybody else so far.
We will deal with that.
I want to ask a very direct question of the Taoiseach because he has been very forthright in many of his utterances in recent weeks. He has stated it is not enough simply to say we will not have a hard border and that we have to have a legal basis to implement these words. They are meaningless just as a throwaway remark. I ask the Taoiseach to be clear and frank with the Dáil now. In the event of a no-deal Brexit, what is his arrangement and agreement with Angela Merkel and all of his EU colleagues? Does he have an understanding about how the EU, Single Market and customs union frontier, which will traverse the island of Ireland, is to be enforced, policed or ignored? What is his understanding? Please tell us.
We will speak later on this issue but I might give the same advice publicly as I have given in a private meeting, which is we should hold our position on the backstop. With regard to our discussions with the German Government or any other Government, I suggest using the argument that it is not just about protecting an Irish position. The Prime Minister, Ms May, seems to be clearly aligning herself with the European Research Group and DUP, who are the very hard Brexiteers in her Parliament. Effectively, she is aligning with the position that wants to deregulate and turn the UK into the Singapore of north-west Europe. It is not in the interests of Germany or anyone to do this. Those who hold that position think if they can remove the Irish backstop, it will also remove the regulatory alignment measures contained in the withdrawal agreement. For this reason, for a German Government as much as for Ireland, it is important we hold the line that the UK does not dumb down labour or environmental regulatory standards, which is what some want to do. We should hold fast and firm, not just for Ireland but for all of Europe in this regard.
Last week, I asked the Taoiseach whether he spoke to the President of the Commission about a no-deal scenario and the Border question. I did not get a reply at the time. It is important to make the point that a no-deal Brexit would be a disaster for all concerned, not just Ireland but the UK and the EU. Let us keep this in perspective as we discuss this. Today, for the first time, the Tánaiste has been a bit more frank than normal in terms of what no deal would mean for a border in Ireland. We can refuse to co-operate with the European Union, which is what I took from the Taoiseach's comments some months ago that we are simply not planning for a border and we will not put up one. How long that would last I am not quite sure. We did not get the full story on the discussion with Chancellor Merkel, which lasted 40 minutes. We may have to wait for the 30 year rule to find out exactly what was discussed.
I do not think any minutes were taken.
I do not think it took 40 minutes for the Chancellor to tell the Taoiseach nothing has changed and nothing will change. We know one of Chancellor Merkel's hallmarks as a politician is her capacity to be constructive and creative in seeking ways around roadblocks. Will the Taoiseach tell us whether she is proposing or thinking of any new ways of overcoming the refusal of the UK Parliament to ratify the withdrawal treaty in its current form?
In recent days, it was suggested in the Financial Times that one of the issues identified in the conversation between the Taoiseach and Chancellor Merkel was the Taoiseach may be personally concerned with how any change would reflect on him. I presume we can take it that this is not the case. I do not believe there is a question mark over German solidarity with Ireland. Equally, there is no doubt that Germany has, with other countries, asked what Ireland is willing to agree to help achieve ratification of the withdrawal treaty. The Commission's spokesman chose today to issue his clarifying statement. There is time yet to go on this and this is an important factor as we assess it. Clarity is important.
The phone call with Chancellor Merkel was very much an opportunity to talk through what might happen in various scenarios and try to work out what might happen next and what we could do in various scenarios. It was a very good and useful conversation in that sense, and one we have had more than once and no doubt will have again. We did not have any detailed discussion on extending Article 50 but we are all aware it is an option. Ultimately, that request would have to come from the United Kingdom. I have no doubt any request from it would be considered. In terms of conversations about Brexit, one thing I can say about Germany and German politicians is they understand borders, hard borders and partitions in a way that perhaps very few other people in the European Union do. They understand what an enormous challenge and threat Brexit is to Ireland and to all that has been achieved in the past 20 years.
I have always said, and I have been saying it for months if not years, that we cannot avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland simply through words, promises and good intentions. It requires a legally operable and binding agreement that aligns customs rules and market regulations. This is what the backstop is. It is exactly that. It is an alignment of customs rules and Single Market regulations so there does not have to be a border with physical infrastructure or associated checks or controls. Despite what others may say, no other proposal on the table at the moment does this, not one. The best that people who are opposed to the backstop and who, at the same time, state they do not want a hard border on the island of Ireland can come up with is a promise it will never happen or a promise they will sort it out over the next two years. This is not acceptable. The Irish Government and anyone in the House cannot accept this. The backstop is a legally operable mechanism to avoid a hard border by aligning customs and regulations and nothing else is being proposed by anyone else that does this, other than a promise to come up with something in a year or two or three. This is not something the Government can accept. This is why we have to hold so firmly to our position on the backstop.
In terms of what would happen in a no-deal scenario, it is always a difficult thing to speculate about. If, in a few weeks, we end up in a scenario where the UK leaves the EU without a deal we will have a real dilemma because Ireland is part of the European Union and we will have obligations to protect the Single Market, the United Kingdom will have joined the World Trade Organization and will have obligations to implement WTO rules, and the UK and Ireland will have an obligation to honour the Good Friday Agreement, protect the peace process and honour our commitment to the people of Ireland and Northern Ireland that there will not be a hard border. What would we have to do in that scenario? We would have to negotiate an agreement on customs and regulations that would mean full alignment so there would be no hard border. We already have that agreement and that is the backstop. Nobody who is opposed to the backstop can credibly state he or she is also against a hard border unless he or she can come up with something else that aligns customs and regulations and allows a border to be avoided. Nobody else has done that yet. There is a reason it took a year and a half to two years to negotiate the backstop. It is because it was difficult to do. We have done it and we cannot give it up in return for a promise that it will be all right on the night or a commitment just to sort it out over the coming two years. It took us 18 months to sort it out. We have a proposal that works and we have to stand by it.