Jack Chambers
Question:28. Deputy Jack Chambers asked the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the further engagement his Department has had with the Public Service Pay Commission; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9301/19]
View answerTuesday, 26 February 2019
Questions (28)
Oral answers (10 contributions)
What further engagement has the Department had with the Public Service Pay Commission and will the Minister of State make a statement on the matter? As the Minister of State and I know, this is continually being delayed. The reporting deadline has been displaced out. The Department has breached its own deadline from last year. What further engagement has the Department had? Can the Minister of State clarify the role of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in that process and why much of what he said last year around the Public Service Pay Commission was contradictory? I hope he will have space now to clarify what he said last year.
In accordance with the Public Service Stability Agreement 2018-2020, the Government tasked the Public Service Pay Commission to conduct a comprehensive examination and analysis of underlying difficulties in recruitment and retention in those sectors and employment streams identified in the commission's report of May 2017. This includes the defence sector in module 2.
In order to assist the commission in its analysis, the Department of Defence was requested to provide specific data. A civil and military team was tasked with collating this material. The specific material requested has been submitted to the commission. The Department of Defence is continuing to engage with the Public Service Pay Commission and is responding to queries and requests for further information from the commission. In this regard, the material is continuing to be collated by the civil and military personnel who worked closely in preparing the submission to the commission.
The Public Service Pay Commission has engaged an independent firm to conduct a survey of Defence Forces personnel to assist in the analysis. This follows on from a study conducted in the second half of 2018 of specialist personnel in the Defence Forces. The main data gathering for the survey will be conducted in February and March 2019. The survey is being facilitated through the Defence Forces. The Public Service Pay Commission has written to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, inviting the management parties to attend a meeting. This will include representatives from the Department of Defence, the Defence Forces and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The commission's work is ongoing. The Government will give due consideration to the findings and recommendations that arise from the work of the commission when it reports.
The Minister of State will recall that in October 2018, he told me that a joint submission had been made and that it went to the Public Service Pay Commission. In January 2019, he contradicted himself by mentioning the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and what we have learned since is that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform had the report that was jointly signed off by the Department and military management for up to three months.
It does not augur well that a report that has been jointly prepared is diluted, amended or changed when it runs through the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and it is worrying for any cohort of public sector workers to see the intervention of that Department. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, admitted to me in recent weeks that he had interfered and involved himself in that process, which undermines the independence and integrity of the Public Service Pay Commission if we have the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform involving itself in and amending the recommendations or the submission that is made by the Department of Defence and military management.
I want the Minister of State to clarify why he said in the Dáil that it had gone to the Public Service Pay Commission in October when it had not and when in fact it went in December. Why did he not inform the Dáil in October that it would go to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform? Why did he withhold that information at the time? Why is the deadline now being pushed out into the middle of this year or whenever when he had given a previous commitment about quarter four of last year for the Public Service Pay Commission report?
I did not contradict myself at all, I actually corrected the record. I know the Deputy is perfect and that is the way it is but I am not perfect and I corrected the record in parliamentary questions earlier this year when I said it went to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. As the Minister for Finance and Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform advised the Deputy in a reply to a parliamentary question on 24 January 2019: "The submission to the Public Service Pay Commission in respect of the Defence Forces was compiled on a collaborative basis between the management side parties in order to provide the Commission with accurate and complete material so as to assist it in its examination of recruitment and retention issues in the Defence Forces." When the submission was originally made to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform then went back and forward and had dialogue with civil and military management on the submission. They drilled down into it and looked for more evidence based statistics. Both my Department and military management worked on that over a number of months before concluding the final submission in December 2018. I know that the Public Service Pay Commission is still in contact with Defence Forces' members.
A bland dismissal such as that does not rectify the issue. The Minister of State knew damn well last year that it was with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and he never informed the House or me. What the Minister of State wanted to do was to say that it is jointly signed off, it has gone to the Public Service Pay Commission and let us wait for the report.
On a parallel basis, it is interesting that during that period the Chief of Staff made a public plea at the various representative association's meetings and publicly talked about the pay issue. We know now why that was the case because he probably knew at that time that the process was with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform but the Minister of State wanted to take it off his desk by saying that it had gone to the Public Service Pay Commission and by not informing us where it had really gone, namely the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. My difficulty is that the Minister of State has delayed the issue around the recruitment and retention crisis by having the report delayed for a quarter of the year with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It also undermines the integrity of the process whereby the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has chipped away at and diluted some of the issues and genuine difficulties that members of the Defence Forces have. That is the issue. It is not about having a perfect story or not. The Minister of State did not tell the House the truth in October 2018 and he did not correct the record until January when he knew damn well where that report was going. Why did he not tell us where it was going at that stage?
It is a pity the Deputy was not around here 15 years ago when his party was absolutely running amok with the economy-----
That is what the Minister of State always comes back with. The Minister of State has no answer.
I am not sure if the Deputy knows me well but there is one thing I will not do and that is shirk away from my responsibilities.
Fair enough.
Maybe the Deputy will be able to learn that over a little bit of time. I did not in any way undermine the integrity of anybody. What I want from my side is to make sure that both military management and the Department make the best submission possible to the independent Public Service Pay Commission. As I have stated in my original reply, the Public Service Pay Commission has written to my Department, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and military management, inviting them in to make a verbal presentation. This is something that I have looked for and that I am happy to say has now been granted. I look forward to the outcome and the Government can take whatever recommendations are made by the Public Service Pay Commission into account and make appropriate decisions.