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European Council Meetings

Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 3 April 2019

Wednesday, 3 April 2019

Questions (5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13)

Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

5. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the issues he raised at the European Council meeting on 21 and 22 March 2019. [10925/19]

View answer

Micheál Martin

Question:

6. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the March 2019 EU Council meeting; the issues that were discussed; and if he had bilateral meetings before or after same. [13888/19]

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Micheál Martin

Question:

7. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if European Union reform was discussed at the March 2019 European Council meeting. [14283/19]

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Seán Haughey

Question:

8. Deputy Seán Haughey asked the Taoiseach the outcome of the European Council meeting held in Brussels on 21 and 22 March 2019. [14723/19]

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Mary Lou McDonald

Question:

9. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the March 2019 meeting of the European Council; the issues that were discussed; and if he held bilateral meetings before or after same. [15012/19]

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Brendan Howlin

Question:

10. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the European Council meeting held on 21 and 22 March 2019. [15022/19]

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Joan Burton

Question:

11. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the March 2019 European Council meeting and the issues that were discussed. [15145/19]

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Michael Moynihan

Question:

13. Deputy Michael Moynihan asked the Taoiseach the detail of his contributions at the March 2019 European Council meeting when the European Union-China summit was discussed. [15419/19]

View answer

Oral answers (30 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 11, inclusive, and 13 together.

I attended the European Council in Brussels on Thursday, 21 March, and Friday, 22 March.

As I outlined in my statement to the House on 27 March, the agenda included: Brexit; jobs, growth and competitiveness; external relations; climate change; and efforts to combat disinformation. European Union reform was not an item for discussion at this meeting.

We also met the leaders of Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein and marked the 25th anniversary of the European Economic Area.

Brexit was the main focus at this European Council and we spent most of Thursday on this. We had a lengthy exchange and question-and-answer session with Prime Minister May and listened carefully to her requests. She asked for an extension of Article 50 until 30 June and also for formal endorsement of the agreements reached in Strasbourg the previous week between her and President Jean-Claude Juncker.

The 27 EU leaders then had a detailed discussion about the best way forward and we endorsed the two documents agreed in Strasbourg.

We also agreed to extend Article 50 until 22 May if the withdrawal agreement was approved last week.

If it was not approved, as has proven to be the case, we agreed to extend Article 50 only until 12 April, a key date in terms of the European Parliament elections, by which time the UK must have outlined an alternative way forward for consideration by the European Council.

We stated that the withdrawal agreement, including the backstop, is not for renegotiation and that any unilateral commitments the UK Government might make must be compatible with this in spirit as well as in letter. In light of the rejection of the withdrawal agreement by the UK Parliament on 29 March, we now await indications from the UK of its intentions.

On Friday, we met European Central Bank President Mario Draghi and discussed the economic outlook, as well as how best to prepare the European Union for increasing global economic competition.

This includes the strengthening and deepening of the Single Market, a matter in respect of which Ireland has been very active in calling for progress, particularly in the areas of services and digitalisation.

We discussed our priorities for the EU-China summit on 9 April and our overall relations with China, including in the context of issues relating to trade, industry and human rights.

I was very pleased that we formally appointed Professor Philip Lane as chief economist of the European Central Bank and a member of its six-person executive board.

Under external relations, we committed once again to Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity and expressed our readiness to continue backing the countries affected by the recent cyclone in Africa.

On climate change, we reaffirmed our commitment to the Paris Agreement and endorsed the development of a long-term climate strategy for the EU. We also discussed disinformation and agreed on the need for further efforts to protect the European Parliament elections and elections across the EU.

Before the first working session on Thursday, I attended two meetings. One was the EPP summit while the other was a meeting of the Nordic-Baltic Group, which Prime Minister Rutte and I attended as guests. We are like-minded small northern European countries and share interests and perspectives on issues across the EU agenda. This is a useful way to strengthen our co-operation.

I also had a short bilateral meeting with Prime Minister May on Thursday afternoon. I did not have any other formal bilateral meetings in Brussels but across the two days, I engaged with my EU counterparts using the opportunity as I always do to promote Ireland and Europe's interests.

Does the Taoiseach think, because I certainly do, that the belated realisation by Theresa May that pandering to the DUP and the crazies on the right of Tory Party has failed dismally to resolve the Brexit situation and that she is reaching across to Jeremy Corbyn is a welcome development? Notwithstanding the Taoiseach's obsession with having pot shots at socialists and the left, whatever he may think about Corbyn, he is an internationalist and not a little Englander and is far more likely to want a softer kind.

Regarding the Taoiseach's comments about climate change, notwithstanding the pot shots he and the Labour Party took at the socialists this morning-----

The Socialist Workers Party.

People Before Profit actually. The Taoiseach's affirmation of his support for the Paris climate change agreement is a bit ironic when we will suffer major fines because of our failure in this area - a failure for which the Labour Party-Fine Gael Government must bear responsibility because it did nothing on climate change. While in government, it tried to sell off the forests and issued lots of licences for oil exploration and Coillte harvesting rights only for protests organised by the nasty left - the awful left - to defeat its proposals.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Howlin certainly did not attend the protests. He signed up to a memorandum to sell off the forests.

(Interruptions).

He did. It was in the memorandum.

We cannot invite interruptions.

(Interruptions).

Just check the protests in-----

Let us be orderly. We have only a short period of time.

Pat Rabbitte was the Minister.

On 5 March, I pressed the Taoiseach to detail the level of business preparedness for a no-deal Brexit on 29 March. He said at the time that he had the details and would provide them but for the fact that we were running out of time. A parliamentary reply to Deputy Michael McGrath last week revealed that on the date scheduled for Brexit, an incredible 40,000 businesses - 50% of those identified by the Revenue Commissioners as trading with the UK - did not have the most basic registration required to continue trading in the event of no deal. Will the Taoiseach publish full details of the current level of preparedness in the economy and provide much more than just giving numbers in terms of inquiries to State agencies? What is the reality on the ground in terms of preparedness?

The Taoiseach will recall that he said last week that it was nothing less than a conspiracy theory to ask about discussions with the European Commission about the Border in a no-deal scenario. He said they were purely at official level and that no advices or instructions were given to officials and that Government had not been briefed on any discussions. Since then, the Commission has come out and said on the record that it had been holding intensive discussions with the Irish Government and that practical matters such as the nature and location of checks had been the core subject of these discussions. It has been confirmed to RTÉ that officials representing the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade have been involved in these discussions and that other intense discussions involving the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine are ongoing. I would accept what RTÉ is saying because I think it is well briefed by the Taoiseach's people and has been good and on the button regarding Brexit all along. What was the problem with the Taoiseach accepting that there were ongoing discussions about it? What was the reason for this sense of denial? The Taoiseach took an aggressive approach and cast aspersions on people who were asking very basic questions about what would happen at the Border and what kind of discussions were ongoing in the event of no deal. He was very dismissive and I believe he was wrong in that regard.

I welcome the fact that Jeremy Corbyn has responded so constructively to the British Prime Minister's belated initiative in terms of bringing both leaders together. Regarding the Taoiseach's attempt last week to put Jeremy Corbyn in the same bracket as Viktor Orbán, thankfully, with all the excitement at what was happening in Westminster, I do not think they got to hear that but I think the opportunity for this country is that something sensible emerges from the discussions between the British Prime Minister and the leader of the British Labour Party that could result in a softer Brexit. Jeremy Corbyn could yet be very important in terms of the outcome for this country.

I think most people are looking on in disbelief at what is happening in the House of Commons. Politics in the UK is dysfunctional, the UK Government is dysfunctional and the UK Parliament, the mother of parliaments, is dysfunctional. Most people recognise the efforts being made to provide political stability in this country and to ensure that our minority coalition Government, which includes a number of Independents and is facilitated by a confidence and supply agreement with the major Opposition party, has provided the time and space with this enormous challenge confronting us.

The Taoiseach met President Macron in Paris yesterday and will meet Chancellor Merkel tomorrow in Dublin. There is a view that both these leaders are taking a strong stand as regards the protection of the Single Market in the event of a no-deal Brexit. This, of course, will have serious consequences for the Good Friday Agreement, efforts to avoid a hard border and our all-island economy generally. What is the position of Chancellor Merkel and President Macron in this regard? Is the big stick being waved and pressure being put on us? I have observed Government long enough to know that sometimes confidentiality is required in respect of Government intentions but this is not such a case. What plans are being put in place for the Border in the event of a crash-out Brexit?

I welcome the decision of Theresa May to finally reach out to the Labour Party in order to resolve the current impasse. I also welcome the fact that the withdrawal agreement is no longer under discussion and that it is taken as given. Regarding the EU summit next Wednesday, what will be the Taoiseach's position concerning any new request by the UK Prime Minister for a further extension to Article 50 - either a short-term or a long-term extension?

While the latest throw of the dice by Theresa May in reaching out to Jeremy Corbyn is welcome, it provides no certainty that anything conclusive will emerge much less that the withdrawal agreement will be endorsed and, therefore, the backstop will become operational. As others have said, the circus at Westminster is certainly something to behold. The default position of a crash-out Brexit remains. Just because the House of Commons, the mother of parliaments, votes against the notion of a crash out does not mean it will not happen.

I was in Brussels earlier this week and had conversations with very many people. It appears to me that some travel more in hope than expectation that this issue will be resolved at Westminster. It is clear we need to be prepared for a no-deal Brexit much as none of us wish that to be the outcome. The Taoiseach has made it clear that he will not support any hardening of the Border on our island and that he will protect the integrity of the Single Market - a position reiterated by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade earlier today. Could the Taoiseach tell me how he will reconcile those two objectives? Can he categorically rule out any hardening of the Border? That includes but is not solely about Border infrastructure.

I want him, as the Head of Government, to reassure people across this land, particularly in Border communities North and South, that he categorically will not give way, blink, bow and allow any hardening of the British Border on our island.

Like other Deputies, I, too, welcome the final reach-out beyond the narrow confines of the hard-line Brexiteers in the DUP to a broader consensus in the British Parliament. Had this been done two years ago, I think there would have been a greater likelihood of a successful, clear majority favouring a softer Brexit. I hope to be in a position to meet Jeremy Corbyn on Wednesday with other socialist group leaders in advance of the emergency summit. A lot of positive work has been done by people such as Keir Stamer, Hilary Benn and Tom Watson as well as Jeremy Corbyn up to this point, but these are critical times. Time is running out and we are at the last edge. I wish to ask the Taoiseach about his approach to this now. I am not asking him to have a crystal ball as it is impossible to know exactly what will transpire hour to hour, much less day to day. If Theresa May requests a short extension up to 22 May, without Britain's participation in the coming European elections, what will the Taoiseach do? What will his vote and strong counsel be on this matter? I believe he will be listened to. What is his intention in this regard if that is the request that emerges?

Deputy Burton has also tabled a question.

I want to know whether there was a discussion at the summit meeting on the issue of how to protect the Single Market in the event of the emergence of a difficult Brexit. None of us wants any installations or hardening of the Border, as has been said. Nonetheless, the Minister for Finance advised me the other day that there are a total of 210 Revenue customs and excise staff employed in the Border counties on what are called compliance issues, that is, customs and excise. The Taoiseach must be aware and must have Garda briefing to the effect that there is a significant upsurge of smuggling along the Border. It is a problem for both sides of the Border. There is a real issue for all the Border communities as to how legitimate traders will be protected. Let us be honest; 210 compliance staff and 20 trained detector dog teams are just not going to do it for us. We understand that the Taoiseach must play his cards close to his chest, but Chancellor Merkel will ask him this question tomorrow because it is the Single Market that must be protected. We want to stay in the Single Market and we would like Britain to be in it as that would be a very good outcome that would help us. However, I find the figures of 20 trained sniffer dog teams and 210 compliance staff scary. The Taoiseach promised us on various occasions that 400 staff would be recruited by now. I am not aware that they have been recruited. They are being recruited. Another 200 were to follow. Perhaps the Taoiseach could update us on that.

I will allow a short question from Deputy Eamon Ryan and then return to the Taoiseach.

I would like to hear the Taoiseach's assessment of the risk that the European Council would refuse a long extension of Article 50, if the European Union was asked for one by the United Kingdom, for fear that UK involvement in the European parliamentary elections would lead to further instability in the next European Parliament, which is the last thing we want. Will the Taoiseach give an assessment of the risk that such an extension would not be accepted?

We would not do justice to the next group of questions if we took it now as we have only seven minutes left. I suggest, with the House's agreement, that it be taken at the next available time. Is that agreed?

We should give the Taoiseach the remaining time.

I genuinely thank Deputy Howlin for acknowledging that I do not have a crystal ball, cannot predict the future and do not have an answer to every hypothetical question. I have learned from experience over the past year or so that it can be dangerous to look into the crystal ball and make predictions about the future or to answer hypothetical questions because when it turns out that one cannot predict the future or answer every hypothetical question, one gets attacked for it. This is why I am guarded in answering questions that ask me to predict the future or come with a hypothetical answer to every hypothetical question, and I appreciate the House's understanding of this.

A request for an extension will really depend on the nature of the request. I have not had a chance to speak to everyone yet but my general sense across the European Council is that it is open to granting a further extension to the United Kingdom. However, we do not want that further extension to be merely a licence for further indecision. We need a decision from the United Kingdom Government and Parliament. We need a clear plan. An extension in this context is one thing but a rolling extension that just leads to further indecision and further majorities against things but for nothing is not a solution for anyone. There is a real concern that if the UK stays in the European Union beyond the date of the European elections and does not hold European elections, there is a risk the European Parliament will not be properly constituted and that any decisions it makes, whether on legislation, budgets or the appointment of a new Commission and Commission President, may therefore not be valid. This is a real concern that many people hold. There is also growing frustration among the majority of countries that will not be adversely affected by Brexit - a frustration I do not share because Brexit is so important for us and could impact us so severely - that the concentration on Brexit is taking us away from other important issues and matters. This is worrying for us, needless to say.

To respond to Deputy Boyd Barrett's questions, I do not wish to comment too much on the internal politics of the UK but I agree with him that Prime Minister May's offer to engage with the leader of the Labour Party, Mr. Corbyn, on Brexit to come to a compromise is timely. I do not know if Mr. Corbyn will rise to the occasion or whether he will show leadership and be able to come up with a compromise plan with Prime Minister May. I hope he does, but we will see if that is what happens in the coming days.

Regarding business preparedness, I again encourage any business that has not engaged in this regard to please do so. Many businesses are very prepared for Brexit. Many are not and have not availed of the information or supports available and many are still adopting a wait-and-see approach. I would prefer if businesses operated a precautionary approach and made preparations. Even if no-deal is unlikely, preparations should be made in any case.

I confirmed about two weeks ago - if not in the House, certainly in interviews - that preliminary or rough discussions had begun on how we can meet our twin objectives of protecting the Good Friday Agreement, on which the peace in Ireland is based, and protecting the integrity of the Single Market and customs union, on which our economy, economic model and jobs are based. This will be a difficult thing to do. We know that the backstop will work and will ensure we have tariff-free, friction-free, quota-free and bureaucracy-free North-South trade. I do not know for certain whether it is possible to come up with an alternative that does this, other than the UK remaining in the European Union or staying in the Single Market and customs union, but we will do everything we possibly can to avoid the emergence of a hard border on our island. We have the support of our European colleagues on this. We know that some things can be done remotely - the collection of tariffs, for example - and customs duties can be collected as other taxes are collected, either online or through tax offices. We know how to intercept smuggling and we already have a smuggling operation in place in respect of cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, diesel and so on.

A counter-smuggling operation, I hope.

A counter-smuggling operation, indeed. This will have to be stepped up, and Deputy Burton is absolutely right about that. We know how to counteract smuggling. Animal checks are much more difficult. They can only possibly be done physically by vets.

It is our view that those checks should take place at ports and that the island of Ireland should be treated as a whole when it comes to sanitary and phytosanitary standards, SPS. That would, however, require the co-operation of the UK. All we can do at this stage, without knowing what is going to happen, is explore options. That is what we are doing and it is happening at official rather than Government level.

Turning to the question from Deputy Haughey, I was asked about the opinion of Chancellor Merkel and the position of President Macron. It is difficult for me to answer questions like that on behalf of other people. I will have a chance to speak in depth and one on one with Chancellor Merkel when she comes to Dublin tomorrow. We did not have that opportunity in Brussels some weeks ago. I did, however, have the opportunity to spend an hour or so with President Macron yesterday, both one to one and with our teams. I am heartened by the enormous support France continues to demonstrate towards Ireland. As President Macron stated, Ireland will never be abandoned by France or the European Union. If there is a no-deal Brexit, whatever issues arise will be seen as shared problems. Ireland will try to resolve them with our partners like France and the European Commission. It is not a question of there being a big stick or Ireland being put under undue pressure.

Reasonable questions, however, are being asked as to how we will protect the integrity of the Single Market and the customs union. We should not make the mistake of thinking that protecting the integrity of the Single Market or the customs union is just a case of having to follow some awkward European rules or unnecessary regulations. Our jobs and prosperity are based on our economic model and that is based on us being in the eurozone, the Single Market and the customs union. We cannot have that compromised.

I will give a small example, and this is theoretical and hypothetical. If, for example, the UK did a trade deal with the US and that brought hormone-treated beef into the UK or it did a trade deal with another country and that brought in chlorinated chicken or it did a trade deal with an Asian country with environmental or employment standards not up to Europeans standards, those products could enter into Northern Ireland from Britain, through Larne or Belfast, and could cross the Border into the Twenty-six Counties of the Republic of Ireland. There is understandable concern that they could ultimately go on from Dublin or Rosslare into France, Spain or Portugal.

Is the Taoiseach saying there will then have to be checks?

Those goods will have to be checked.

It is entirely reasonable that questions should be asked as to what we are going to do-----

There would have to be checks then.

-----to prevent that.

Businesses in the Republic will be ruined.

Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website.
Sitting suspended at 2.15 p.m. and resumed at 3.15 p.m.
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