Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 11 April 2019
2. Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh asked the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the status of the Public Service Pay Commission's meeting with management parties following the joint submission from military authorities and his Department; if he or a representative from his Department was at the meeting; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16981/19]
View answer4. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence his engagement with the Public Service Pay Commission on the pay, allowances and conditions of members of the Defence Forces; his views on the need for improvements to pay and conditions in view of the low pay and poor conditions faced by members of the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16982/19]
View answerThese questions relate to the status of the Public Service Pay Commission and a recent meeting it had with the management parties on a joint submission from the military authorities and the Department. What progress is happening on the Public Service Pay Commission submissions to ensure there are proper pay and conditions in our Army?
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 and 4 together.
Similar to other sectors in the public service, the pay of Permanent Defence Force personnel was reduced as one of the measures to assist in stabilising national finances during the financial crisis. Improvements in the economy have provided an opportunity to progress the unwinding of the financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, legislation, which imposed pay cuts across the public service.
In 2016, the Government established the Public Service Pay Commission to provide objective advice to the Government on public service pay policy. Following the publication of the Public Service Pay Commission's report in May 2017, the Government initiated negotiations on an extension to the Lansdowne Road agreement. The Public Service Stability Agreement 2018-2020, which was accepted by members of the Permanent Defence Force through their representative associations, provides for increases in pay ranging from 6.2% to 7.4% over the lifetime of the agreement. By the end of the current agreement, the pay scales of all public servants, including members of the Defence Forces, earning less than €70,000 per annum will be restored to pre-FEMPI levels.
In accordance with the agreement, the Government tasked the Public Service Pay Commission with conducting a comprehensive examination and analysis of underlying difficulties in recruitment and retention in those sectors and employment streams identified in the commission's report of May 2017. This includes the defence sector. To assist the commission with its analysis, the Department of Defence was requested to provide specific data. A joint civil and military team prepared this material. The commission's work is ongoing. The Department of Defence continues to engage with the Public Service Pay Commission and is responding to queries and requests for further information from the commission as they arise and to any issue that may arise as all of the data submitted are examined.
The Public Service Pay Commission issued an invitation to representatives of departmental and Defence Forces management to follow up on defence material submitted, and a meeting was held on 6 March. The Secretary General of the Department of Defence, the Chief of Staff, civil and military personnel from the Department of Defence, senior officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and other military people attended the meeting. The Government will give due consideration to the findings and recommendations that may arise from the work of the commission. I am happy to say military management and the Department had an opportunity to address the Public Service Pay Commission and give their side on issues and questions that the commission had and to ask any questions they had.
On 2 May last year, the Minister of State told me the Public Service Pay Commission was due to complete this exercise in the second half of 2018. It is now April 2019. What is the delay? Why are we now at a stage when members of the Defence Forces and their families continue to suffer? There seems to be prevarication and a desire to delay. There is no sense of urgency in what is happening, so much so that the representative associations are losing confidence in the process. In January, one stated it had lost confidence in the process. All the while, the Defence Forces are haemorrhaging people. This is not a separate issue because pay and conditions are some of the reasons people are leaving. Will the Minister of State please indicate when this will be dealt with? Will the report be in time to be considered to ensure that in the budget for 2020, the key decisions required to be made will be made and those families suffering at present have some hope?
Does the Minister or the Government have any sense of shame about the conditions of exploitation and downright poverty for many members of the Defence Forces? Over the Christmas period, many Defence Forces families were reliant on food hampers to get by. Sarah Walsh of the Wives and Partners of the Defence Forces stated the families live in poverty and suffer from food, income, fuel and child poverty, that many of them can only dream of owning their homes and that this month some of them are facing uncertainty about their homes while others face homelessness. She also stated that she knows these people. The treatment of ordinary members of the Defence Forces is scandalous. They have very little confidence that the Public Service Pay Commission process will deliver, particularly given the delays Deputy Ó Snodaigh has pointed out. Why should they believe anything will happen here? What is the attitude of the Minister of State? Does he believe the circumstances facing them need to change?
To reply to Deputy Ó Snodaigh, it is a matter for the pay commission and I cannot speculate on when it will complete its work. The Government will give due consideration to the recommendations of the report when it is completed. What I said on the record in May last year was that I wanted the pay commission to receive all of the material. Unfortunately, there was a huge amount of back and forth between the pay commission and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and between the Department of Defence and military management. We wanted to be able to make sure we provided all the data requested. This is something of which we were very conscious and we did provide it. It is one of the reasons I was very willing for the Department and military management to have an opportunity to have face time with the pay commission so they were able to put forward their side in person. It is very important to do so. It is now a matter for the pay commission. I hope to see this as soon as possible but it is an independent pay commission.
To address Deputy Murphy's question, I have no sense of shame. I am waiting for the pay commission to report. It is easy for Deputy Murphy to be on the Opposition side of the House and be able to shout off the sidelines. He is the same person who came in here and said 50% or 60% of members of the Defence Forces were on family income supplement, which was untrue and false.
How many are?
Less than 1% of members of the Defence Forces are on family income supplement. Deputy Murphy is the same person who was shouting and roaring this out but he was wrong yet again.
As I say, it is easy for him to do it. I am confident that we will have a set of recommendations from the Public Service Pay Commission as soon as possible. I cannot get involved as the commission is an independent body, but whatever recommendations it makes will be considered by the Government. I hope to see them as soon as possible.
What I quoted was exactly what the Minister of State said last year. I quote him again. He said: "The Public Service Pay Commission is due to complete its exercise in the second half of 2018." That period has come and gone. The Minister of State's colleague, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, has said he now expects it to report at the end of quarter 2 this year. Why is there a delay? There is no reason and there appears to be no urgency. Why was it only in March that the Secretary General and the Chief of Staff met the commission? Why did it not happen last year or the year before? We all understand the exceptional work and schedules of the Defence Forces and how they have suffered as a consequence. They are unlike any other part of the public service, which is why they should have been dealt with first. The Government is hedging its bets. If the commission reports at the end of June, within the timeframe indicated by the Minister for Finance and even if it is not kicked to touch, will the measures be brought before the House in the budget? If not, will the Minister of State implement interim measures to stop the haemorrhage from the Defence Forces owing, in particular, to pay levels?
Does the Minister of State deny that conditions of poverty are widespread among low-paid members of the Defence Forces and their families? There is a great deal of evidence to indicate that is the case, but I am interested in the Minister of State's answer and whether he continues to be shameless on the question. The underlying issue is trade union rights, in particular the right to organise and associate. The INMO and the PNA have shown how public sector workers can win concessions through organisation and industrial action, but that basic right to organise is denied to members of the Defence Forces. The retired soldier Anthony Bolger who has protested in favour of increased pay for the Defence Forces notes that members of the Defence Forces are not allowed to speak in public, bargain collectively or assemble for protest. As a consequence, their position is being represented by their families and retired soldiers. While that task is being undertaken very well by the WPDF, members of the Defence Forces should not have to rely on it and should instead have the right to organise into their own trade union to negotiate with the Government.
To Deputy Ó Snodaigh I say that once we consider the recommendations of the the Public Service Pay Commission, we will move as quickly as possible. From a public expenditure point of view, there is a process to be gone through. However, the Deputy can be sure I will push as hard as I can to ensure we will have that. I am not sure whether Deputy Paul Murphy read the review of the conciliation and arbitration scheme, but he should take the opportunity to do so and prepare himself when coming to the House. One of the recommendations made by the chairperson of the review was that we enter into a conversation with ICTU on behalf of members of the Defence Forces. Officials of my Department have already started that process. If the Deputy prepared himself before coming to the Chamber by reading the recommendations-----
Does the Minister of State agree that there should be a right of representation for members of the Defence Forces?
Absolutely, I agree, as I have stated. If I did not agree, I would not have asked officials in my Department to talk to ICTU about the issue. It was one of the recommendations made in the review of the conciliation and arbitration scheme that I adopted in 2018. I brought in an independent chairperson who produced a set of recommendations which I accepted in full when the review of the conciliation and arbitration scheme was published, part of which meant entering into dialogue with ICTU, as I have stated. If the Deputy had listened more carefully, he would have heard my public utterances on the matter. Perhaps I am ahead of the ball vis-à-vis the Deputy on this one.
