Alan Kelly
Question:1. Deputy Alan Kelly asked the Taoiseach the number of Cabinet committees he has established; the membership of each; and the role and function of each. [15771/20]
View answerWednesday, 15 July 2020
Questions (1, 2, 3)
Mary Lou McDonald
Question:2. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach his plans for a reformed structure of Cabinet committees. [15949/20]
View answer
Mick Barry
Question:3. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the convening of Cabinet committees. [16087/20]
View answerOral answers (22 contributions)
I will take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.
The Government has established the following Cabinet committees: Covid-19; economic recovery and investment; housing; health; environment and climate change; social affairs and equality; education; Europe; Brexit and Northern Ireland; and Government co-ordination. I am a member of all committees, along with the Tánaiste and the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Eamon Ryan. I am circulating with the Official Report for the information of Deputies a list of Cabinet committees, their role and membership. In addition to the membership of committees, other Ministers and Ministers of State may attend meetings as required. The Cabinet committee on Covid-19 met on 3 July and the committee on economic recovery and investment held its first meeting on 8 July. Further Cabinet committee meetings are scheduled in the coming weeks.
|
Cabinet Committee |
Membership |
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COVID-19 - to assess the social and economic impacts of the potential spread of COVID-19 and oversee the cross-government response |
Taoiseach Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment; and for Transport, Tourism and Sport Minister for Health Minister for Finance Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade |
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Economic Recovery and Investment - to oversee the implementation of Programme for Government commitments aimed at sustainable economic recovery, investment and job creation |
Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation Taoiseach Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment; and for Transport, Tourism and Sport Minister for Finance Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht |
|
Housing - to oversee implementation of Programme for Government commitments in relation to housing |
Taoiseach Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise, and Innovation Minister for Communications, Climate Action, and Environment; and for Transport, Tourism and Sport Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government Minister for Finance Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection; and for Rural and Community Development |
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Health - to oversee implementation of Programme for Government commitments in relation to health |
Taoiseach Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment; and Transport, Tourism and Sport Minister for Health Minister for Finance Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform |
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Environment and Climate Change - to oversee implementation of Programme for Government commitments in relation to the environment and climate change |
Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment; and for Transport, Tourism and Sport Taoiseach Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation Minister for Finance Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection; and for Rural and Community Development |
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Social Affairs and Equality - to oversee implementation of Programme for Government commitments in the areas of social policy, equality and public services |
Taoiseach Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment; and for Transport, Tourism and Sport Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Minister for Finance Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection; and for Rural and Community Development Minister for Children and Youth Affairs Minister for Health Minister for Justice and Equality Minister for Education and Skills Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science |
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Education - to oversee implementation of Programme for Government commitments in the area of Education |
Taoiseach Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise, and Innovation Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment; and for Transport, Tourism and Sport Minister for Education and Skills Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Minister for Finance Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science Minister for Children and Youth Affairs |
|
Europe - to oversee implementation of Programme for Government commitments in relation to the European Union and related issues |
Taoiseach Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment; and for Transport, Tourism and Sport Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade; and for Defence Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Minister for Finance |
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Brexit and Northern Ireland - to oversee implementation of relevant Programme for Government commitments and ongoing developments and negotiations |
Taoiseach Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment; and for Transport, Tourism and Sport Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade; and for Defence Minister for Justice and Equality Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Minister for Finance |
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Government Co-ordination - to co-ordinate and oversee the implementation of the Programme for Government |
Taoiseach Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment; and for Transport, Tourism and Sport |
I thank the Taoiseach for the rundown on the number and variety of Cabinet committees. Can he confirm which committee will discuss the implications of the Apple judgment? I assume it will be dealt with by the committee on economic recovery and investment.
The programme for Government commits to a commission on taxation and welfare. We in the Labour Party have repeatedly called for the establishment of a standing committee on taxation. We have also repeatedly called for a minimum effective corporation tax rate in the interests of tax and economic justice and fairness more generally. There are commitments in the programme for Government relating to tax reform, but many of them are, quite frankly, very weak on specifics. Can the Taoiseach confirm that a commission will be established that will identify in real time some of the abuses of the Irish tax system?
The truth is that many multinational corporations are way ahead of this Government and other governments internationally in the way in which they aggressively plan their tax affairs. Will the Taoiseach consider establishing a commission on taxation on a statutory standing basis to ensure that, in real time, we can understand the operations of large companies that aggressively plan their tax affairs? It is critical that is done in the interests of Irish taxpayers and citizens, as well as in the interests of fairness in this country and economy. It would ensure that we could respond in real time to some of the aggressive tax planning that goes on.
We discussed some of these matters yesterday and the Taoiseach again set out for us the committee structure, for which I thank him. Yesterday I asked him about the Government co-ordination committee and he explained that this was the forum in which the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and the leader of the Green Party would meet and discuss matters.
I asked the Taoiseach yesterday if that was the mechanism by which he briefed his Government colleagues on the full story in respect of the former Minister, Deputy Cowen, and he said that was not the case. This morning the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, leader of the Green Party, said he had been fully informed of all facts in respect of the former Minister, Deputy Cowen, in what he called "a timely fashion". I simply want the Taoiseach, when he gets to his feet, to place on the record of the Dáil when it was he gave the full information in his possession from the weekend of 3 and 4 July. When did he inform the Tánaiste and the leader of the Green Party and fully brief them on the full facts?
Can the Taoiseach tell us when the Cabinet's education sub-committee is due to have its first meeting? The Irish Times reported on Monday that the National Educational Psychological Service presented a report to the Department of Education and Skills regarding stress and anxiety levels among Irish second level students. The report is said to have found much higher levels of anxiety over school work and exam-related stress than is the case in other developed countries. The report apparently finds that 50% of second level students feel nervous and stressed and 25% feel physically unwell when thinking about exams.
Interestingly, the report in the newspaper said the report was a key factor in the then Minister, Deputy McHugh's, decision to cancel the leaving certificate. Actually, when one thinks about it those are not just arguments for cancelling leaving certificate 2020 but for cancelling the leaving certificate, full stop, and replacing it with a more student-friendly and less stressful way to measure a student's level of educational attainment.
The report goes on to say that, separately, education authorities are said to have drawn up options to give students more choice in next year's State exams to help make up for lost teaching time. The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, and the State Examinations Commission, SEC, have reported to the Minister for Education and Skills on that and there is to be consultation between stakeholders between here and the end of July.
I give a cautious welcome to this news, which is positive if the proposed changes genuinely make up for lost teaching time; a big issue for the forgotten fifth years, as I call them. It would be the opposite if they were to fall significantly short of genuinely making up for lost teaching time. We will soon see. I hope the information can be presented to this House before we rise at the end of July. Perhaps the Taoiseach could informs us when the first meeting of the education Cabinet sub-committee will be and whether these issues will feature on the agenda of that meeting.
First, with regard to the Apple judgment, obviously we have the committee on economic recovery but the Cabinet as a whole will consider it this evening and will have a report on it. It is important to make the point that Ireland is only entitled to revenue within the law and legal framework. The essential judgment is that the Commission's decision is being annulled and so Ireland was not in a position to get any of that revenue because it was not entitled to it. That is the decision of the courts.
I also make that point that we need to look at the broader issue of global companies and multinationals and how their tax treatment is organised. Equally, it must be said that Ireland's industrial policy for more than 40 years now has been to attract foreign direct investment. It is founded on a basic strong relationship with those companies be they in life sciences, technology, financial services or in other sectors.
Tax certainty has been critical to that success, and it has been a success story. For far too long people on the far-left, in particular, and I am not going to put those in that bracket, have been niggardly in any acknowledgment of the central role of foreign direct investment in terms of the creation of modern Ireland as being a country of manufacturing excellence that creates good synergies with small to medium-sized indigenous companies and a sector that has created significant employment. I rarely hear that being said when this debate happens. It is a debate that has been fought on populist and simplistic grounds. The other key part of that agenda has been Ireland's reputation and credibility, in particular, the credibility of our revenue, because it is not just about one company, it is about a broader approach.
In essence, the court is saying that no special aid was given. No State aid was given in this respect. This may be appealed and if Apple had appealed it on its own it would have been the same decision of the court. That must be said. The Cabinet as a whole will assess it in the first instance. The Government's position is that we prefer the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, approach to dealing with it. I take the Deputy's point that there are issues. Global companies are bigger than states now. This is happening at European Union level as well and there is much vigorous debate internationally on this.
With regard to Deputy McDonald's question, I did answer that question yesterday. The Deputy has a habit of suggesting that I never answered a question. I did answer the question, which was if this was the mechanism by which issues around the Deputy Cowen controversy would be organised, in other words, the Cabinet co-ordination committee. The Cabinet co-ordination committee is a Cabinet committee. Discussions held there are, like all Cabinet committees, subject to the framework of confidentiality. I said to Deputy McDonald yesterday it is possible that at such a committee issues of that kind would be discussed, and also that outside of that committee there had been discussions. As Deputy Ryan said, he was fully informed on a timely basis. I was not fully informed on 3 or 4 July.
I want to know when.
I was not fully informed on 3 July.
What date?
The Deputy says when in the context of her assertion as to when I had full knowledge and I disagree with her.
I just want a date.
I had a number of discussions over the last while. Yesterday, following my meeting with Deputy Cowen - there were others during the week - I apprised both the Tánaiste and the Minister, Deputy Ryan, in terms of the outcome of my discussions with Deputy Cowen and also of the fact I had seen what I took to be the PULSE file yesterday morning. I gave them my view and my intentions, by the way, in terms of full accountability to the House being necessary. Following that I had subsequent discussions but I have kept them apprised of any knowledge that I had on this.
Acting Chairman-----
There are more Deputies in the House, Deputy.
Let the Taoiseach finish.
In terms of the leaving certificate and the National Educational Psychological Service, it is important to point out that there have been significant reforms to the leaving certificate over the last 20 years with a greater reduction on the emphasis on written exams. That is a good thing. The benefit of the leaving certificate has been its anonymity, the fact that it is fair and that it avoids any subjective correction of results. I favour a greater use of continuous assessment and project-based work and I look forward to the fact that other options are now being considered to give students greater choice. There have been better reforms in recent years on the oral competence in the leaving certificate, which is a good thing. It needs to be tested and assessed in terms of languages. The Irish language now is a much more significant part of the exam than the written part. Students taking the history curriculum have the opportunity to do a history project which accounts for approximately 20% of the results.
That is the kind of initiative I would like to see more of because it enables students to learn and develop a lot more.
I take the Deputy's point about the stress on students. That needs to be eased. I value the work of the education psychological service. I was the Minister responsible for establishing it in the late 1990s and it does valuable work.
What about fifth years?
As I am a trained historian, as is the Taoiseach, I hope he will recognise the role that my party, the Labour Party, has played in opening Ireland up to the investment of multinational corporations. The view has always been that this was an initiative of Seán Lemass and the late T. K. Whitaker, a good friend of mine from my alma mater in Drogheda, St. Joseph's CBS, but of course, it was William Norton, then Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce and leader of the Labour Party, who first opened Ireland up to investment and moved us away from the isolationist perspective. We owe a debt of gratitude to William Norton, and, indeed, those who followed, in terms of modernising our economy.
I stress a generous competitive corporation tax offering does not a national industrial strategy make. Of course, we have a considerable focus on the issue of corporation tax - that needs to be a minimum effective rate of corporation tax in the interest of fairness, decency and tax justice - but we also need to focus on the skills gaps that are emerging and the fact that, for example, we have one of the lowest levels of in-work training in the OECD, at 5.5%, as compared to Denmark, that is up at 33%. In the July stimulus under the national economic recovery plan, we need to focus on that, making sure that people are ready for the jobs of the future.
Finally, we need to be mindful of the advice from the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC, published today. It has drawn attention to the fact that the international corporation tax regime will change over the next few years. Ireland needs to lead that and work with the OECD. I was one of the Ministers in the mid-2010s who signed up to the OECD base erosion and profit shifting, BEPS, process in the interests of tax justice and fairness. We need to be conscious and mindful that IFAC has stated there will be a diminution of corporation tax receipts over the next few years in the context of both the BEPS process and changes to the international corporation tax system. The people of this country are entitled to expect decent public services. We need to be able to pay for them with a tax system that is objectively fair to everybody, and by "fair", I mean that multinational corporations should pay their fair share, as well as the hardworking people of Ireland and small businesses across the country.
We are running out of time rapidly but we will finish as much as we can.
My ask is straightforward. On the weekend of 3 and 4 July, the Taoiseach discussed all aspects of the Cowen case with the former Minister, Deputy Cowen. On what date did the Taoiseach give full information or have a full discussion with the Tánaiste and with the leader of the Green Party? On what date did the Taoiseach make them fully conversant with all of the facts? That is all I want.
I call Deputy Barry, to finish.
In one sentence, could the Taoiseach comment on the second half of the question I raised about the idea of tapering next year's leaving certificate in order to give more choice and options to students who have lost a significant amount of teaching time and give his view on that?
I would take on board what Deputy Nash has said. I do not disagree with the Deputy's point. The participation in the BEPS process is an important process. Initially, the corporation tax rate was very important. There is no point in pretending it was not. The Deputy does not suggest that but, as a former Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, particularly on the life sciences front, many companies wanted certainty around our tax proposition and it was a competitive world in terms of tax offerings. The Deputy is absolutely correct that skills are equally important now in my view; the level and quality of our education system. I always remember Craig Barrett of Intel saying in his speech that three things are critical for any government: education, education, education. Fourth level, in terms of research, is vital now as well.
The BEPS process is key. There is a global issue around this in terms of governments having the wherewithal to fund services and underpin the social contract. That is key. That said, in Ireland, the corporation tax yield is going up and up, although there is a vulnerability in terms of the limited number of companies that account for a very large volume of the corporation tax receipts that come in. I certainly take the Deputy's point in relation to William Norton's historic role - a good man who made a good contribution to Irish public life.
In response to Deputy McDonald, the question is phrased in such a way as if I had full knowledge on 3 and 4 July, and I did not have full knowledge. I have stated repeatedly that Deputy Cowen was of a view and he took his own actions in relation to that. He did not have any document that weekend and I think it took the following week for him to get access to the document. I had a number of conversations throughout the period with the Deputies concerned and, as I said, this week I had a comprehensive engagement on the issue as well.
In terms of the fifth years, it is a fair point. Arrangements should be made to try to facilitate those students who have lost out so much this year in terms of their preparation for the leaving certificate next year. That will have to be kept under constant review as well because the possibility is that we will be living with Covid for quite some time; maybe not at the levels that occasioned the shutdown of the schools but we can never be too sure. We have to constantly devise new ways of helping and facilitating students through this difficult process.