Alan Kelly
Question:3. Deputy Alan Kelly asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the Government co-ordination Cabinet committee; and the officials and advisers that attend. [16884/20]
View answerWednesday, 22 July 2020
Questions (3)
Oral answers (20 contributions)
The Government co-ordination Cabinet committee was established by the Government along with nine other Cabinet committees. I am a member of the committee along with the Tánaiste and the leader of the Green Party. The Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach, my chief of staff and the chiefs of staff of the Tánaiste and the leader of the Green Party also sit in on meetings.
The committee has had two meetings to date on 6 and 13 July. It meets in advance of Government meetings. The committee was established to review the activity of Cabinet committees, review the agenda for that week's Government meeting, discuss political priorities and review implementation of a specified element of the programme for Government.
I would be interested to know if the committee met last night in advance of the Cabinet meeting. As we know, the Cabinet meeting was delayed by an hour and a half or more. My assumption, which may be incorrect, is that the green list articulated in public by the Tánaiste may have fed into a committee meeting and delayed the Cabinet meeting in turn. I am interested to know what discussions of the Tánaiste's comment took place prior to or during the Cabinet meeting. My opinions on the green list have been well publicised. I am sure the Taoiseach is aware of them. The horse has now bolted. The list has been published. I think it is a mistake. Even the language, the use of the phrase "green list" is incorrect.
The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade was on the "Morning Ireland" radio programme this morning. He is a good communicator and he articulated the rationale. However that rationale still does not cover the gap between the policy and the medical advice, or make up for the public's lack of confidence in this. Has the committee discussed further measures to improve confidence in any detail? Dr. Ronan Glynn, our acting Chief Medical Officer, is doing a tremendous job. Has the committee discussed his observation that workplaces are the new front line of the Covid-19 crisis?
Is the Taoiseach's committee aware of any instances of people who have returned from countries on the green list or the red list, returned to a workplace without restricting their movements or self-isolating for 14 days and brought the virus into a workplace? Has this led to workplaces being shut down or other measures being taken? How often has this happened? If it has happened, why has it not engendered a stronger response on the part of the Government?
I too would like to know whether this Government co-ordination Cabinet committee met in advance of last night's Cabinet meeting. With regard to the green list, it was very clear that yesterday the Tánaiste acted as a critic of his own Government, or at the very least of his Government colleague, in telling the media it was wrong to send out mixed messages about international travel. In fact he questioned the value of having a green list at all. Was that matter thrashed out at the co-ordination committee?
On a separate matter I refer to the proposal to award an allowance of €16,288 to a third super junior Minister. Such an allowance was only envisaged for two super junior Ministers, but it seems the Taoiseach will bring forward legislation to allow this payment to be made to a third.
I put it to the Taoiseach that this is a fairly extraordinary decision to make at a time when he is also proposing to cut the Covid payments that so many workers and families rely on. Is it not something of an extravagance to award this very generous allowance to a third super junior Minister at a time when families fear for their own income levels and wonder whether or not they will get back to normal working life in the near future?
It is one thing to have a lack of coherence and co-ordination about foreign travel and green lists before a Cabinet meeting, but it is something else to have that lack of coherence and co-ordination after the Cabinet meeting where, presumably, the matter was discussed. The Taoiseach is just not acknowledging that what the Minister, Deputy Coveney, said today did not clarify matters but confused matters more. He said that the green list included countries whose infection rate was at the same level as Ireland or below - I am paraphrasing, but accurately - and, therefore, that it was as safe to go to those countries as it was to travel in Ireland. The Minister then went on to say, "We think you should not go there but if you do go there, it is okay and you do not have to quarantine." Where is the coherence in that? Have the members of the Government now become the experts on health advice? For the Minister to say that it is as safe to go to the green-list countries as it is to travel here is, first of all, a signal for people to go to those countries. Why, if it is so safe, would the Government stop people from going and why is NPHET saying they should not go? Presumably, NPHET is saying that because it thinks it is not safe to go, but the Government spokesperson said this morning that it as safe to go as it is to travel in Ireland. If that is not a mess and a total lack of coherence and co-ordination that leads to absolutely understandable confusion on the part of the public, I really do not know what is.
I will deal first with Deputy Duncan Smith's questions. The reason for the Cabinet meeting delay yesterday was that we had a Cabinet sub-committee meeting on the stimulus plan involving Ministers, the Tánaiste, the leader of the Green Party and me, with a whole host of officials, in coming to the final stages of the preparation of what will be a very comprehensive stimulus plan to create jobs. I would not read anything into the fact that we had to put the meeting back. I had come back from the Dáil yesterday after dealing with the duties I had here in terms of questions and so on. The timelines were tight and that explains it. We did meet in advance of the Cabinet, which is what we do. That is the whole idea of a Cabinet sub-committee. In line with all Cabinet sub-committee meetings, I am not in a position to reveal what happens at the meetings. They go through what is about to come up.
In terms of the memorandum in regard to travel, that has been in preparation for quite some time and the whole issue of international travel has been on the agenda for approximately two months or more, since the whole reopening started. If the Deputy recalls, about two weeks ago we put back the decision in regard to international travel until 20 July, which was the day before yesterday, but because I got detained in Brussels for four days, which was not anticipated, we had to put everything back, hence the meeting at 8 o'clock last evening. I had thought I would be in Dublin on Monday morning but I was not. There is no big mystery to the fact that we have had Cabinet meetings and we had to have one at 8 o'clock last night. There was no mystery to that, just that I was in Brussels and was not in a position to be here Monday. Luckily, I got back on Tuesday in time for the Dáil. The memorandum itself would have been in preparation last week and over the weekend. I would have had discussions over the weekend with others in relation to it and those issues were being debated and discussed with the relevant Ministers. We had a very good meeting last night at Cabinet on the issue. It was constructive and matter of fact.
I have to state that I listened to Deputy Boyd Barrett's comments and I think he is overstating the issue. I think there is a degree of hyperbole in what he is saying. The bottom line is that these countries have a lower incidence of Covid-19 than Ireland has. People need to know that information.
Why is the Government telling people not to go there?
Exactly.
There is a need to advise people of what the state is in countries. Some other countries are in a much worse situation. Overall, we are saying that the safest thing to do is to stay at home and take a holiday in Ireland this year. That, to me, is fairly basic and fairly sensible. We have a very restrictive travel regime at the moment in terms of our advice. It is very restrictive and travel is on the floor. The next stage is that we will be putting in place a call centre and the electronic locator form. Contact tracing is key and there will be randomised testing at airports. We are exploring the issue of areas where there is a high incidence of Covid-19 to see how we can further protect our citizens from any potential dangers of people travelling here from such locations and how best to deal with that, both legally and sensibly, in terms of protecting life.
People should remember when they talk about travel from certain areas that there have been some very tough stories in terms of families who cannot get back from particular countries. Travel is not all about tourism. That is an important point. In Europe, for example, they have had various advisories but they have never banned an aeroplane from landing anywhere. Nor have we, and there is a reason for that in terms of workers, family members and so on. We have Irish people who work in Europe and may want to get home for two or three weeks. Some of them are working on behalf of the State. Should our message to those workers be that when they come back, they will have to quarantine mandatorily? They will have to restrict their movements if they are coming from countries outside the list, but we just need a bit of balance in our debate about this. I gave figures earlier which show that travel is on the floor compared with where it was a year ago. That does not take away the dangers of Covid-19 through travel. I work with and talk to the acting Chief Medical Officer. I have great respect for him and I will continue to work with him on this. Cabinet has to take a wider breadth of issues on board when it makes these decisions.
Travel is indeed on the floor. The airport is in my constituency, so I am keenly aware of that. However, I do not think that any of the three of us is engaging in hyperbole in asking questions of the Taoiseach.
Two Deputies were.
In fairness, Deputy Boyd Barrett was very confident in his delivery and all that, but what he is saying is spot on and it is exactly how I feel and how I think Deputy McDonald and others in this House feel. There is an issue with using the wording "green light". Green means go, as I said on the radio yesterday morning, and it was a political decision to give implicit permission in this regard, which is what this wording does. The Government could have just put a list of the countries that have lower rates of infection per 100,000 people on the Government website, which has been a very good resource during this pandemic, and focused on a proper step approach to reopening travel. In order to do that, confidence had to be given to the public, individuals and businesses. We have not stopped aeroplanes and we are all aware of people who have had to come home for sick loved ones or people who were dying or for any reason. We are all keenly aware of that, but we on this side of the House know there has been a step change in the Government's approach to this issue.
I will finish with a point on which I hope the Taoiseach will come back to me. We need to know how many people have come back to Ireland with the virus and have gone into workplaces and so on. That is a key issue if we are to have confidence in any regime the Government puts in place. As Dr. Ronan Glynn said, this issue is the new front line.
I echo all of those sentiments. I would also like the Taoiseach to answer the question in terms of the allowance for the third super junior Minister. Is it true that this legislation will be brought forward, when will that happen and how on earth does the Taoiseach justify it? I ask the Taoiseach please to answer that question this time.
To echo the sentiments of Deputies Duncan Smith and McDonald, of course we are cognisant of and sensitive to people and families in situations of difficulty and having to get back, essential workers and so on. That is not the point here. Indeed, the point is not just the green light symbolism and what that signifies, which Deputy Smith referred to, although he is absolutely right on that point.
The Taoiseach did not answer my question. After all the controversy and in circumstances where it is clear there is confusion, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Coveney, stated on a radio programme this morning that, in the context of infection, it is as safe to go to these 15 countries as it is to travel within Ireland. How can that be tallied with the advice not to travel? If it is so safe, why is the Government stating that people should not travel? Why is NPHET stating that they should not travel? The two things do not fit together. There is a direct contradiction. Either it is safe and people can travel or it is not safe and they should not travel. In the context of the application of public health advice, since when has it been the case that the Government states it wishes for people to do something but they do not really have to do it? That is the message currently coming from the Government. When there was a 2 km restriction, the Government did not state that there was a 2 km restriction but that it did not really mind people going 3 km, 5 km or 20 km if they fancied doing so. This is the message that is being sent. Is it any wonder people are confused? The Taoiseach needs to clarify the position. People do not know what they should do.
I will get specifics on any incidences of infection in a workplace arising as a result of travel. I am not aware of any such incidences. There have been infections resulting from travel that have had a knock-on impact, many involving households. Deputies may be aware of the house party that took place in Killarney, for example. As stated earlier, the bigger threat relates to how people behave in groups or as individuals. Despite all the hype, it boils down to individual and community behaviour. There should not be 30 people or 60 people at a party in a house. Such behaviour represents the fastest way to spread the virus. If a person who has the virus travels from abroad and goes to a party with 60 or 70 other people, that will spread the virus more quickly. Behaviour is key.
We must get contact tracing and testing in place very quickly. That work is ongoing and has improved dramatically. There was an increase to 46,000 the week before last, which is very significant. That improvement will continue. The time it takes to receive results is decreasing. We must keep working to get faster and better outcomes in that regard. I will put the Deputy's question to the acting CMO and revert to him on it.
I ask the Taoiseach to address my question in respect of super junior Ministers.
I stated last week that there is either a rate for a position, in this case the super junior Ministry, or there is not. The matter will be regularised. There are three super junior Ministers, one of whom is the Chief Whip. The matter will be regularised. Either one is a super junior Minister with a seat at the Cabinet table or one is not.
On the points raised by Deputy Boyd Barrett, the key issue is that the incidence of the virus is lower in the countries on the list than it is in Ireland. The Government makes decisions in respect of public health having received advice from NPHET. It is not new that the decisions may not be fully in accordance with the advice received. It happened in the context of the roadmap, for example.
That is not what is stated in the programme for Government.
In general, the Government has aligned its decisions with public health advice. People have suggested what they think should happen. Some people did not want schools to close as quickly as they did, but within days of the decision being announced they were calling for them to be closed. There has been ongoing constructive engagement with public health regarding the best thing to do. I refer to masks. The public health advice in the early stages of the pandemic was not to wear masks. There was a certain reticence regarding the usage of masks. Having read the scientific evidence of their efficacy, I came out in favour of the usage of masks at an early stage. Their efficacy is probably still a matter of dispute in the medical world but more and more people and bodies, including the World Health Organization, are recommending their usage. NPHET recommended that the wearing of masks be introduced in consumer and retail spaces and that will be done. Mandatory mask-wearing on public transport was introduced. I pushed very hard to get that done. I stopped the various territorial battles that were going on and stated that I wanted the regulations to be introduced. Look what happened. The public very quickly complied with the regulations, despite all the attempts to sow confusion. There has been a significant amount of commentary regarding measures being confusing and questioning who will implement them.
The green list directly contradicts the public health advice.
Similar comments were made regarding the wearing of masks on public transport. The bottom line is that the public did the right thing in that regard. We need to see the matter in perspective as well. We still have one of the most cautious travel regimes in Europe and across the globe.
Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website.