Covid-19 Pandemic

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 28 July 2020

Tuesday, 28 July 2020

Questions (26)

Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

26. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade the discussions he had with the NPHET with regard to the production of the green list; if he requested the advice that the expert advisory group provided to the NPHET in this regard; the reason he decided to proceed with a green list given that the clear advice from the NPHET was to discourage persons from foreign travel; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19030/20]

Oral answers (13 contributions)

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Varadkar, and the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, have been under the spotlight for the disgraceful move to cut pandemic unemployment payments, PUP, for people who engage in non-essential travel. The Minister himself has not been under much scrutiny but I put it to him that he is significantly responsible for this mess. The statutory instrument which the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, is using to cut people off the PUP refers to the travel advice on the website of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade which actually says that non-essential travel to a whole list of countries is okay. Did the Minister discuss the advice with NPHET and did they agree with it?

Deputy Simon Coveney

On 21 July the Government agreed a list of 15 locations for which the advice against non-essential travel no longer applies, as far as formal travel advice is concerned. The travel advice for those locations now is to take normal precautions which is represented by a green bar under the system of country risk ratings used by my Department. It is important to note that the list of territories subject to this change in travel advice was compiled in close consultation with the Department of Health. As such it is subject to the views of the range of public officials and advisers engaged on the issue. As on all matters related to the Government's response to Covid-19, the NPHET and the Expert Advisory Group have been and will continue to be vitally important to providing advice to the Department of Health and the wider Government in determining our path forward.

A core criterion in assessing eligibility for inclusion on the aforementioned list is an epidemiological one, namely that the European territories in question had, over the previous 14 days, a similar or lower caseload of Covid-19 per 100,000 people than Ireland, as reported by the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control.  This epidemiological benchmark provides us with a level of confidence that inbound travellers from these jurisdictions are not only unlikely to have the virus but they are no more likely than Irish residents they may encounter to have the virus and therefore they represent a very low risk level. The Government will continue to draw upon the expertise and guidance of the NPHET and the Expert Advisory Group as we chart our way through the pandemic response. However, it is important to underline that the role of these bodies is to advise and the role of the Government is to make decisions, taking into account the wider overall view of Ireland’s interests. That is what we have done in this instance and what we will continue to do.

I also say to the Deputy that weeks in advance of this we flagged the fact that we would look at epidemiological data and that we would limit the restrictions to countries that pose a more significant Covid risk than is currently present in Ireland.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Is the Minister saying he is now a public health doctor, an epidemiologist or a virologist?

Deputy Simon Coveney

I am not. Is the Deputy saying he is?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I am not. However the Minister has ignored the advice of the virologists, epidemiologists and the public health experts. He did not answer the question because he knows it would not suit him and would show that the Government has departed from the public health advice, from the expert advice. The Minister is saying there is no threat of bringing the virus back from these countries because they have a lower infection rate but what about solidarity? We might be taking the infection to them. Has the Minister considered that? This is Ryanair dictating public health policy. That is what is actually going on and victims of that are the people who are getting their pandemic unemployment payments cut.

They were understandably confused by the mixed messages, whereby the Department's website explicitly states the injunction against non-essential travel does not apply to 13 countries, including Italy, Greece, Malta and Cyprus. That is what it says. Some people followed that advice and then had their payments cut.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Mattie McGrath)

The Deputy will get another opportunity.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is shocking.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Mattie McGrath)

I ask speakers to stick to the time because we are running way over time.

Deputy Simon Coveney

The Deputy is a great man to try to twist reality to try to make political arguments. The Government message is very clear to people. This year people should holiday at home. That is the safest thing to do for their families and themselves. If people are travelling, and we know that up to 50,000 people a week are, my Department has an obligation to give factual information based on risk and data. That is what we have done. The public health advice, which is to stay at home this year, is very clearly part of the message of the Government to the public but that is a different thing to the obligation that the Department has to assess risk levels in countries and to give accurate information to people who have chosen to travel. That is the position. If we were doing Ryanair's bidding, I do not think it would be threatening to take us to court or, as we speak, giving evidence to a committee criticising the Government's international travel policy, as it does every single day. The truth is the policy we have taken, which is in line with public health advice, has been to dramatically limit international travel to less than 10% of what it would normally be at this time of year. We have done this because it is the right thing to do to protect public health. That is what we continue to do.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I do not make accusations lightly but the Minister has just misled the Dáil, just as he has been misleading the public. Under a heading that mentions general advice to avoid non-essential travel the website states, "In accordance with Government policy, which is based on official public health advice, the Department of Foreign Affairs continues to advise against non-essential travel" but then it states:

as of 21 July, travel to a very limited set of locations is exempted from this advice. The security status for those locations to which non-essential travel can resume has been changed to 'normal precautions'.

It is very clear that these locations are exempted. The injunction against non-essential travel does not apply. It says it in black and white. The statutory instrument that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has used to cut off people's pandemic universal payments refers specifically to this. It is the fault of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade that people believed it was okay to engage in non-essential travel because the Department's website said and still says that it is okay and the injunction against non-essential travel does not apply. The Government put out mixed messages and people are now getting their payments cut because of it.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Shouting does not make the point any clearer, quite frankly.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Being dishonest does not make it clear either.

Deputy Simon Coveney

What we have done, and we have made it very clear, is there is an obligation on the Department to provide travel advice to people who choose to travel, which is not consistent with what the Government is asking people. The Government message is very clear that people should holiday at home this year. We are not encouraging, supporting or funding people to go on holidays abroad. If people choose to travel I have an obligation to rate countries on the basis of risk level in order that people can take the appropriate precautions. That is what we have done with regard to travel advice, whereby the so-called green list is a list of destinations that do not pose a greater risk from Covid than is posed here in Ireland. The overall message from the Government is very clear that people should holiday at home with their families this year. That is the safest thing to do.