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Cabinet Committees

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 20 October 2020

Tuesday, 20 October 2020

Questions (6, 7, 8)

Mick Barry

Question:

6. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with housing last met. [28811/20]

View answer

Alan Kelly

Question:

7. Deputy Alan Kelly asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with housing last met. [31298/20]

View answer

Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

8. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with housing last met. [31338/20]

View answer

Oral answers (34 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 to 8, inclusive, together.

The Cabinet committee on housing last met on 28 September and will meet again shortly. The committee oversees the implementation of the programme for Government commitments in respect of housing and related matters. Significant work is under way on the delivery of these commitments through Departments, agencies and interdepartmental groups, which will be brought forward for discussion at the committee and among the Government.

The budget last week was an important step forward, providing for an overall investment of €3.3 billion for the delivery of housing programmes in 2021, including provision for 12,750 new social homes to be delivered through build, acquisition and leasing programmes. The committee operates in accordance with established guidelines for Cabinet committees, and substantive issues are referred to the Government for discussion and approval. In addition to meetings of the Cabinet and Cabinet committees, I regularly meet with Ministers, including the Minister with responsibility for housing, to discuss particular issues.

I wish to ask the Taoiseach about the question of a new mortgage moratorium. The Tánaiste is quoted in the papers this morning as saying the lockdown will cost 150,000 jobs. I do not know how many mortgage holders are in that cohort but I imagine quite a lot as well as many more who will have their incomes negatively affected while still holding onto their jobs. During the first lockdown, a six-month mortgage moratorium was put in place. What will be put in place in the course of this lockdown? Of course, the answer is not entirely in the Government's hands because with the privatisation of the banks, it cannot control what it does not own. The Government is, however, in a strong position to put the banks under serious pressure to provide for a proper mortgage moratorium in this situation.

On Leaders' Questions earlier, the Taoiseach indicated that the Minister for Finance will call the banks in. I would have thought they would have been called in today. I am surprised they have not. I wonder why they have not been called in. If they are not coming in today, when will they come in? Will it be tomorrow, Thursday or Friday? Surely to God it will happen this week. Huge numbers of mortgage holders are anxious and are looking at this question very carefully at the moment. What will the Taoiseach ask for? What will be his ask when he goes to meet the banks? What is he saying should be done in terms of, first, the duration of a moratorium and, second, this moratorium not being one whereby people are forced to pay interest, making money for the banks in a pandemic? The moratorium should be interest-free.

When the residential tenancies legislation went through the Seanad last July, we proposed a very clear enabling amendment that the Government and the Minister opposed. It would have possibly avoided the need for us to sit this week because it gave power to the Minister to reintroduce a ban on evictions. It was an either-or. It did not force him; it just gave him the power to do so if there was a second wave. In fairness, some of the Taoiseach's colleagues in government in the Green Party supported the amendment or at least did not oppose it. Now we have to deal with another rushed piece of legislation this week. We learn from our lessons. We call on the Taoiseach to extend the ban on evictions up to at least March. It is important that it goes to March. We cannot have a situation whereby it goes to just the first week in December because in that scenario people will have no certainty over Christmas, and surely this year of all years we have to ensure certainty.

I have been through the issue of rent and a rent freeze many times. I know what the capacity of the Government is on this. I know it has extensive powers. I ask the Taoiseach to use those powers. In addition, it is obvious that in the coming days the Government will have to bring in the banks to discuss a mortgage moratorium. It is absolutely essential that the Government does this sooner rather than later.

A mortgage break has to happen. It is absolutely unacceptable that the people who will be hit hardest by the lockdown in economic terms, losing either income or employment, will then also potentially have some of the banks crawling all over their backs, adding to the pressure and stress they face. When people talk about protecting mental health, let us be clear what that means in many cases. Often mental health is about the stress of not being able to pay one's mortgage, rent or bills and the uncertainty of possibly losing one's home. There is nothing that will damage one's mental health more than that. If we are all in it together, the Taoiseach has to act with might and main to ensure that the banks do not crawl all over people's backs or load up debts during the coming period. If we can bring in emergency legislation to bail out banks, as we did a few years ago, we can bring in emergency legislation or do whatever is necessary in order to tell the banks they will not load up debt or harass people during possibly one of the most difficult periods in their lives. The Government has to do this; otherwise, it will wreck the sense of social solidarity we need. Similarly, simply reimposing the ban on evictions during level 5 restrictions is not good enough because it will mean that notices to quit can be issued and then, four or five weeks before Christmas, there will be a slew of evictions. That is totally unacceptable, so the Taoiseach has to do something about it.

I raised with the Taoiseach earlier the issues mortgage holders face. The real shame is that on 30 September the opportunity to extend a full break for mortgage holders was lost. That is on the Taoiseach and it is a big failure of his Government. Can he set out for us very clearly what alternatives, what propositions, he will put to the banks, given that MABS reports that banks, as I said earlier, are not playing ball? The Central Bank has to sanction banks for their failure to comply with the code of conduct for mortgage arrears which, as the Taoiseach knows, puts an obligation on the lender to present the borrower - the mortgage holder - with all options available to him or her as far as alternative repayment methods are concerned.

I want the Taoiseach to set out the details in that regard.

What does he envision in terms of the eviction ban? An eviction ban that lasts for a couple of weeks will not be sufficient. In our view, we needed a ban on these practices long before Covid-19 entered into the equation. In terms of rent freezes, will the legislation the Taoiseach is bringing forward deal with both a ban on evictions and a freeze of rents?

In terms of mortgages, the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform will engage with the banks on this issue. On the first occasion, good work was done. That is not acknowledged in this House, of course, but the payment breaks worked effectively.

Why did the Taoiseach end them?

Deputy McDonald knows the reason. It is not that we ended them. Once we came out of lockdown, there was a time limit to it with the European Banking Authority. It did not add to the number of non-performing loans.

That is entirely wrong.

This scheme did not create difficulties for borrowers either.

It should have been extended.

Indefinite payment breaks forever are not, on their own, the ideal solution either in terms of those who are borrowers or lenders. I refer here not just to mortgages but also personal loans, business loans and so on.

Repossession of a person's home is not great either.

I did not interrupt the Deputy. I would appreciate being given the opportunity to answer the questions asked by Deputies in this House.

Will the Taoiseach then try to make some sense?

With regard to the ban on evictions issue raised by Deputy Kelly-----

When are the banks coming in?

-----the bottom line is that there is a constitutional issue as well. Let us not pretend there is not. The ban came in during lockdown because a lockdown restricts movement. It gives a basis to prevent evictions because of the constraint on people's movement and then the danger of becoming homeless if evicted and so on. The Minister, therefore, will bring in legislation that will be effective from the duration of this lockdown and this level - that is, level 5 - which will prevent any evictions in that context.

Of course, the Minister also introduced the earlier legislation that was referred to, namely, the Residential Tenancies and Valuation Act 2020, which came into effect on 1 August. That also protects tenants against experiencing rent arrears and who are affected by Covid-19. It also protects them from eviction and applies nationwide, of course, subject to the tenant making an appropriate declaration. It is my understanding that is there until 11 January and can be reactivated or kept going. The Minister will, however, bring measures before the House to prevent evictions in the context of level 5. His legislative solution will enable automatic application of the law if we move from a particular level to another where restrictions are brought in that restrict the movement of an individual as level 5 does with the 5 km rule.

In and around the rent freeze, rent control measures are already in place, some of which, if I recall, the Deputy introduced originally. They are still in place in terms of the rent control zones but, again, in terms of the legislation the Minister introduced earlier this year, the capacity exists to protect tenants under that Act. As I said, there will be engagement with the banks on this. They are obliged to deal with the codes and the Central Bank has a role in that. The European Banking Authority created a regime which facilitated member states to bring in and to work with the banks which would not affect the borrower's credit ratings. That was important.

The Government let that slide.

We did not let it slide. The Deputy deliberately misreads the situation. She knows that is not the case.

If the Deputy is so certain, I am amazed improvements have not happened in the North with regard to it. The Deputy is in government in the North. I do not understand.

The Taoiseach's friends in Fine Gael met their banking buddies. History will record what happened.

If the Deputy is so certain that is the case, why does she not do it in the North where she is in power and has the influence and decision-making power to do so? I presume it is because of similar reasons.

Is that the Taoiseach's single transferable excuse? It is pathetic.

No, it is not. It is just an important point.

Deputy Boyd Barrett also raised the issue of the mortgage break and the lockdowns. We do not want people in a long-term overloading of debt. Of course, we do not. The evictions issues will be dealt with. The Ministers will see what we can do to make sure people with mortgages are not put under stress and anxiety and those people's situations can be helped.

In terms of earlier issues, I did not get to student nurses. Again, I will engage with the HSE and the Minister for Health on student nurses working on the wards in the current context. As they were earlier, they should be paid in accordance with the agreement arrived at earlier in the year. I will follow up on that.

The Deputy used the phrase "Covid on the cheap". Some 20% of our normal budget has been borrowed this year to deal with Covid-19. We now have a deficit of more than €21 billion. That will rise even further as a result of our going into lockdown. We need some accurate and precise language from time to time-----

We need decent contracts.

Hyperbole and polemic are some of the Deputy's great strengths but there comes a time to stop. No one can say that we are doing "Covid on the cheap". The health service received a €4 billion allocation in the budget, that is, €2 billion for Covid-19 and €2 billion to permanently embed improvements into the service. That is not Covid on the cheap. We have built the testing and tracing capacities from zero-----

It is cheap labour.

It is not cheap labour. The health service is not using cheap labour.

It is not. Look at the entirety of the workforce. It is not cheap labour. That is another myth and fallacy to put forward.

According to NESC's report, it is.

Equally, our objective is to learn lessons from Covid-19 and accelerate improvements and reforms in our health service delivery in the context of community delivery, rehab, home care-based provision and community diagnosing, keeping people out of hospital as long as we possibly can and moving more into prevention, primary care and community care sides. That is the objective of Government while also increasing capacity in the rehab community hospital beds and in the acute hospital situation.

Deputy Barry referred to youth unemployment. The €200 million is a sizeable allocation. I take the Deputy's point on quality. That must be looked at, and not just looked at but proper mechanisms must be in place to ensure that the quality of the provision is of a high order. There is a very good scheme to incentivise apprenticeships and, historically, we had a good apprenticeship system. The institutes of technology were great providers of apprenticeship training. The education and training boards are now leading it. I want to get good structured quality training that will get people opportunities and employment.

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