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Lobbying Regulation

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 17 November 2020

Tuesday, 17 November 2020

Questions (86, 89)

Gerald Nash

Question:

86. Deputy Ged Nash asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform when he plans to introduce legislation to enhance section 22 of the Regulation of Lobbying Act 2015; his views on whether a breach of the section by former Ministers or relevant public officials should be made an offence; his further views on whether sanctions proposed in legislation (details supplied) should be included in any legislation proposing to deal with the matter of public policy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [36579/20]

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Mairéad Farrell

Question:

89. Deputy Mairéad Farrell asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the further measures being planned in terms of amendments to the Regulation of Lobbying Act 2015 in view of his recent statement that he was planning fines and criminal sanctions for Deputies and Ministers that breach the cooling off period and become lobbyists shortly after leaving political life. [36719/20]

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Oral answers (10 contributions)

This day two weeks ago, I introduced the Regulation of Lobbying (Post-Term Employment as Lobbyist) Bill 2020. It was heartening to see the Minister, in The Sunday Times two Sundays ago, publicly endorse all the measures contained in that Bill, including the proposal to introduce fines of €2,500 and the threat of imprisonment for former Ministers or senior officials who may be found in the future to be in breach of section 22 of the Regulation of Lobbying Act 2015. We know that lobbying and advocacy is a fact of life and a feature of democracy and good decision-making. The test is how transparently, openly and accountably that is to be done. Given that the Minister now seems committed to reform in this area, when can we expect to see the package of reforms which he intends to bring to this House?

As Deputy Nash mentioned, there were reports recently that the Minister is planning on working on legislation relevant to this situation, and that he is planning on having fines and criminal sanctions for Ministers and Deputies who would breach this legislation and become lobbyists shortly after leaving political life. What other measures are being considered in respect of amendments to the Regulation of Lobbying Act 2015?

I thank Deputies Nash and Mairéad Farrell for their questions. I propose to take Questions Nos. 86 and 89 together.

Section 22 of the Regulation of Lobbying Act 2015 provides that certain designated public officials, the lobbied, are restricted from being engaged in lobbying in certain circumstances for a year after they leave their employment or office, unless they have obtained permission from the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO. In effect, they are subject to a one year “cooling-off” period.

The general purpose of section 22 is to manage the potential for conflicts of interest between the public and private sectors and to place restrictions on what is often referred to as a “revolving door” between the public and private sectors. The Taoiseach outlined in the Dáil recently that section 22 of the Act should be reviewed by my Department and this review is under way. The review will include: seeking and considering the advice of the Office of the Attorney General on a range of possible enforcement provisions to be applied in respect of section 22; consultation with, and consideration of, the views of the SIPO; review of recent Bills published regarding the matter, including that published by Deputy Nash; and reflection on relevant proposals already made in public submissions to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in the context of either the first review, in 2017, or second statutory review, in 2020, in respect of the Act.

This is a complex matter. Any amendment to section 22 must factor in issues such as the rights of a person to work and the proportionality of any sanctions that may be imposed. Sufficient time is required to allow for full consideration and deliberation, prior to any decision and subsequent actions being taken. The Deputies have identified the key issue. It is the lack of enforcement provisions regarding section 22, and I am committed to acting on that issue. I look forward, once the review is complete, to bringing proposals to Government and then to the House.

That needs to be done urgently. Time and again, SIPO, in its annual reports, has pointed out the lacuna that currently exists in section 22 of the Act. SIPO needs the power to initiate investigations. A range of things must be done to ensure confidence and trust in politics, and that involves empowering SIPO, reforming the organisation and giving that important watchdog sufficient teeth.

My party, as the Minister will know, back in the 1990s and between 2011 and 2016 made great strides to take big money out of politics. We see now, however, that those laws are being sidelined by some parties which are moving money from one jurisdiction to another, and sidestepping Irish law. That is deeply unfair and it is an issue that must be addressed. We must look at ethics and the conduct of politics in this country in the round and holistically.

I propose that when we are reviewing ethics legislation that we need to do that in concert with the establishment, for example, of the electoral commission. Those issues need to be looked at side by side. This is an urgent matter. We must have a level playing field in respect of how politics is conducted. We do not have that now, and the Minister must be conscious of that when he is crafting new legislation to address all these urgent issues facing this polity.

I thank Deputy Nash for those points. The direct issue which has been raised in these priority questions concerns section 22 and the fact that a breach of that section is a breach of a statutory provision in the Act, but it is not currently sanctionable. I believe that is an issue which requires change. In working on this issue in recent weeks, I have gone back to look at why there was no provision for that within the legislation originally. I have seen remarks from the then Minister, Deputy Howlin, when he brought in this legislation.

He stated at the time:

The imposition of restriction on post-term employment as a lobbyist on relevant designated public officials must be proportionate and practical because people have constitutional rights. One of the most difficult things is to narrow or circumscribe people's right to work, which is what this provision does.

Advice was given at that time by the then Attorney General. I have gone back and looked at that advice, and I have my own advice as well. I am working my way through that now. We want to have a scenario where people can come into politics or public service, and then leave politics or public service and carry on with their careers. That must not be in a manner, however, where one day a person can be lobbied and then the next day he or she can be the lobbyist in respect of the people for whom he or she worked for previously. That is not something which I want to see happen and I am committed to addressing that situation.

I thank the Minister for the comprehensive response. I am very aware of the advice the then Minister, Deputy Howlin, received back in 2015. That is important, and we need to balance those rights when we are approaching this legislation. The Minister, however, is absolutely right. We have seen, on far too many occasions, the revolving door system in play and that affects and impacts on trust and confidence in politics and in these institutions. The Minister is absolutely right about that aspect. Confidence and trust in politics and the political system is absolutely imperative now. It is always important, but it is particularly important now when we see movements, right across the world, challenging politics and challenging how we do politics. There must be trust in our institutions. Our laws need to be updated to reflect some modern-day realities.

I thank the Minister for his response again. We must be mindful as well that all of this must be done holistically. I accept that we cannot simply just cherry pick certain aspects of our ethics legislation. This must be looked at in the round. I also ask the Minister to look at this area in the context of the ongoing work regarding the programme for Government commitment on a new electoral commission. All these issues must be looked at in their totality.

The Minister will be aware that his predecessor conducted two reviews in respect of the Regulation of Lobbying Act 2015 and found that no changes needed to be made, despite SIPO raising 22 amendments in 2016 and 2019.

SIPO clearly stated earlier this year that it was deeply disappointed by this and that it needs greater enforcement powers. I welcome that the Minister mentioned these powers. Realistically, in this year this matter really has come to a head. Public confidence is at an all-time low. We need to very clearly and categorically state that we are closing the door between Government and vested interests. It is extremely important that we to do this. Will the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform look at the previous recommendations from SIPO when making these amendments?

I have read all of that material already and I am of course going to take it into account. I have been looking at what the record has been in the context of how many people have been applying to SIPO for exemptions from section 22. The numbers are quite low, but that does not mean they are insignificant. They relate primarily to special advisers. In 2020, there were six applications. In 201,9 there were two applications for special advisers. In 2018, there were two applications for special advisers. In 2017, there were five applications received, three of which were for special advisers, one was for a senior civil servant in a Department and one for an official in a Department. In 2016, two applications were received, one of which was for a special adviser and one for an official on a local authority. As it happens, none were from former public representatives. This is not to say that some should not have, an issue on we are all very much aware given recent developments.

On Deputy Nash's point, there is a need for a wider review of ethics legislation. The Deputy will be aware that SIPO has responsibility for: the Ethics in Public Office Act; the Electoral Act 1997, which deals with the key issue of political financing, political donations and election expenses; the Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Act 2014 in the context of the use of public funds by political parties and independents; and the Act we have been discussing here, the Regulation of Lobbying Act 2015. We are committed to a complete review of ethics legislation and I want to engage with all parties on that.

As I mentioned, since I have been elected - but I am not saying that the two things coincide - we have seen public confidence damaged by the events surrounding golfgate, the case of a former Minister and the recent leaking of a confidential document. All of these instances have had a real impact on public confidence in politics.

I am glad to hear that the Minister is genuinely concerned about the weaknesses in our lobbying legislation. My colleague, Deputy Pearse Doherty, and I will also bring forward a Bill which will give expression to many of the requests for extended powers that SIPO has made over many years with regard to lobbying. I hope the Minister will support that legislation. This country really needs a new departure when it comes to standards and ethics in public life. I believe that our Bill will be the first step on that journey.

I look forward to reading the legislation the Deputies intend to bring forward. Two statutory reviews of the 2015 Act have been conducted. A decision was made not to bring forward any legislative amendments in response to those reviews. In reviewing this particular issue, it is important to look back at the statutory reviews and the other information in the public domain, as well as the advice from the Attorney General. There is a need for balance. We need to have a situation whereby people feel they can enter politics or take on a role on a short-term basis as a senior public official and have the capacity to return to their former lives in the private sector, or whatever it may be, and continue with their careers. People can make a contribution at different stages of their life and this mobility enhances politics. It cannot be done in a way whereby people are using the position they very recently held to exercise influence over the system they were part of. That is the issue I will deal with.

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