Mother and Baby Homes Inquiries

Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 3 December 2020

Thursday, 3 December 2020

Questions (88)

Thomas Pringle

Question:

88. Deputy Thomas Pringle asked the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth the interactions he has had with the collaborative forum for former residents of mother and baby homes since becoming Minister; when members of the forum will receive copies of the sixth interim and final reports of the commission of investigation into mother and baby homes; his plans for the forum in 2021; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [40385/20]

Oral answers (6 contributions)

Deputy Thomas Pringle

From what I can tell, the last official meeting of the collaborative forum for former residents of mother and baby homes was this time last year, on 11 December 2019. There were 13 forum members present, including the chairperson, Dr. Gráinne Healy, as well as the Minister's predecessor, Katherine Zappone, and six officials from the then Department of Children and Youth Affairs. From the notes of the meeting, it seems that a number of commitments were made to the forum and follow-up was expected. Instead, the forum was sidelined after the general election and blindsided when the Government introduced its legislation dealing with access to the database and records in October. What meetings has the Minister had with the forum and what are his plans for the forum next year?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I thank the Deputy for his question. I am committed to strong and ongoing engagement with former residents of mother and baby institutions and their advocates. The process of engagement with the collaborative forum, which was established by my predecessor, Katherine Zappone, as a representative advisory body on issues of priority for former residents, their families and supporters, was interrupted by the general election and the Covid-19 pandemic. It was necessary to put meetings of the forum on hold in the context of the restrictions put in place to reduce the spread and impact of Covid-19. A number of members travel to meetings from outside the jurisdiction and some would also be categorised as being in the high-risk category.

Throughout 2020, the members of the forum have been apprised of developments and updated on matters related to the commission of investigation by the secretariat to the group. It is the practice of my Department to inform them of any major announcements prior to their being made public. In the course of the debate on the database legislation, I acknowledged my own shortcomings and those of my Department in terms of our communications and engagement with the collaborative forum. I voiced my commitment to renewed engagement with survivors and advocates, including members of the forum. As a first step towards that, I have spoken to former residents and advocates in this area in recent weeks, including a substantial majority of forum members. I spoke individually to anyone who was happy to speak to me.

I have given my commitment to convening a meeting of the forum in whatever manner is possible following the publication of the report of the commission of investigation. I repeated that commitment in a communication I sent to forum members this morning as part of the notification process of the date for the publication of the report. As I said, I am advancing the publication of the report for the week of 11 January. I have communicated that to the collaborative forum, as well as my intention to meet it thereafter to discuss the report and its ongoing involvement in the process of advising and representing survivors, together with wider issues to do with the legacy, many of which we discussed in the debate on the database legislation.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I thank the Minister for his response. It worries me that he talks about it not being possible to have meetings of the collaborative forum. There is the option of video conferencing, which has been availed of by the Oireachtas. That could have been put in place. I am concerned that there is a possibility of the forum being put on hold.

In the notes of a previous meeting of the forum, it was stated that members "feel that their voice and opinions are not being adequately recorded in order for it to be evident to a wider audience". Forum members were told that the Department would organise a presentation on the report of the commission of investigation at the next meeting, which we now know will take place in January. An action noted was that the Department was to seek clarification from the Attorney General and revert to the forum. There seems to have been a reluctance to engage with members. The Minister has much work to do to get people back on board given the way the database legislation was handled and how the forum has been treated over the past year. Not all of that happened under his watch, but it is his responsibility now and he has a great deal of work to do to get things back on track.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

There is work to do and I started that work by reaching out to, and having lengthy and detailed conversations with, many of the forum members. Some of them were very forthright in their views on the issues, as is absolutely appropriate. It was an important first step to rebuilding trust. I made the commitment that we would convene subsequent to the publication of the report. A number of members voiced their dissatisfaction that the forum's own report has never been published, only the recommendations. I made a commitment to go back to the Attorney General to see whether we can get that report, or a substantial part of it, published. A huge amount of work went into it and the forum members made the point that their recommendations, which were published, were very much out of context without the full report to give them a broader perspective. I have made a commitment to engage with the Attorney General on the forum's report.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

Perhaps we should have a question about the role of the Attorney General in the operation of the Department. It seems that everything has been done according to his say in this matter, and that is worrying.

The legal view takes a very narrow view of how things can actually be done and how people can be dealt with. These people need a more humane view rather than a legal view. That would go a long way towards meeting it. The Minister needs to be strong and stand up to the Attorney General. He needs to tell him it is the Department with responsibility for children, a Government Department, rather than a legal office. This will be important in how the matter is dealt with in the future.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

Since the Attorney General and I took office, I have found him incredibly supportive in the work that I have done. My engagement with him resulted in GDPR now applying to the archive, a significant step. Everyone has recognised it as such. That should be noted.

Obviously the Attorney General is the legal adviser to the Government. I recognise that, in the context of the debate on the database legislation, I took a legalistic approach. I saw a legal problem and saw that as a solution. I am endeavouring to ensure that I continue to engage with survivors. I have had significant engagement with survivors over the past number of weeks and I will continue to do so. It has been extremely useful for me to hear at first hand the absolutely shocking and different experiences of so many survivors. I have committed that in my Department's approach in future, we will ensure that survivors are absolutely central in everything we do.