Skip to main content
Normal View

Cabinet Committees

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 15 June 2021

Tuesday, 15 June 2021

Questions (11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18)

Alan Kelly

Question:

11. Deputy Alan Kelly asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education last met; and when it will next meet. [27895/21]

View answer

Gary Gannon

Question:

12. Deputy Gary Gannon asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education last met; and when it will next meet. [29413/21]

View answer

Mary Lou McDonald

Question:

13. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [29519/21]

View answer

Pádraig O'Sullivan

Question:

14. Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [29602/21]

View answer

Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

15. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [31398/21]

View answer

Paul Murphy

Question:

16. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [31401/21]

View answer

Rose Conway-Walsh

Question:

17. Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education last met; and when it will next meet. [31791/21]

View answer

Mary Lou McDonald

Question:

18. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with education will next meet. [31828/21]

View answer

Oral answers (14 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 11 to 18, inclusive, together. The Cabinet committee on education oversees implementation of the programme for Government commitments in the area of education, including preparing for post-Covid education. This Cabinet committee last met on 13 May and discussed topics including special education policy in schools, the broader legislative framework governing special education and the increased demand for places at third level in 2021 and 2022.

I have regular engagement with Ministers at Cabinet and individually to discuss priority issues relating to their Departments. In addition, a number of meetings have been held between my officials and officials from relevant Departments since the establishment of the Cabinet committee in July 2020.

I am surprised at the amount of time left.

It will be helpful to all the other Members.

A report in thejournal.ie website has said that the plan to build 400 multidenominational schools primary schools by 2030 has absolutely no interim targets and that there is no roadmap. Is this true? If not, then perhaps the Taoiseach will tell us it is not. These are so necessary and we in the Labour Party, including Senator Bacik and Deputy Ó Ríordáin, have fought for these for many years. We need to ensure we have a supply of such schools. Why is there no plan and why are the targets and the roadmap for this not in place?

When does the Taoiseach expect to hold the citizen's assembly on education, and especially with regard to the role of religious orders in education?

The Labour Party has raised the issue of an autism empowerment strategy in the Dáil numerous times, including with a motion, and in particular on the volume of autistic spectrum disorder, ASD, units in Dublin 2, 4, 6, 6W, and 12. There have been lots of pledges. Again, Deputy Ó Ríordáin and Senator Bacik have written to patrons to ensure that pledges will be honoured and that there will be resources. There seems, however, to be a lack of urgency. Will the Taoiseach ensure that the Minister, as has been done quite rightly before, use emergency powers to ensure such ASD units are built in time?

I want to talk about compassion within our education and State examinations system. I am no fan of the current leaving certificate model but it worries me gravely that we are moving backwards and not forward when it comes to compassion for students. Compassionate leave was granted for the first time in 2019 to students who suffered a close family bereavement over the course of their written examinations. I believe that this leave did not go far enough, as it extended only to three days' leave from examinations. Almost 50 students availed of this leave in 2019. Almost 50 students who could have lost a parent or a sibling on a Monday were expected to return for their examinations on the Thursday. This is the most compassionate the leaving certificate has ever been but we have removed it for this year. Tomorrow, if a student who is due to take the French paper takes ill or experiences an epileptic seizure or any medical emergency, there is no alternative arrangement in place for the student to take the examinations at a later date. As the Taoiseach has said himself, the current system is too inflexible. We have crossed the Rubicon in respect of the leaving certificate due to Covid. I ask the Taoiseach that we introduce the bereavement leave as offered to students in 2019 and go far beyond what was offered by investigating the accredited grade model in order that a student who experiences exceptional circumstances at any point in his or her sixth year can avail of an accredited grade.

I welcome the Taoiseach's comments that the Cabinet sub-committee on education has met to discuss special education in particular. I have spoken repeatedly with the Taoiseach and with the Minister, Deputy Foley, about this issue over the past months. Following on from what the previous speakers have said, I have a genuine concern about provision for ASD students nationwide. I acknowledge that a lot of resources have been pumped in over the past 12 months but it also needs to be acknowledged that more children than ever before are getting diagnoses and assessments of need. I am concerned that there are areas of this country and of our own county where the education provision for students with ASD is left to the devices of principals in schools. The policy needs to change. The Department of Education and the Government need to take this issue by the scruff of the neck so that where there is demand for provision of such educational services, they will be provided in any school that is publicly funded. I do not believe this to be a major ask. The Government needs to look at this. There has been a dramatic increase in the number of ASD classes provided, even in the short time that we have been in government. That said, the existing demand needs to be addressed. The best way to do that is to do it from a Department point of view, where the Department makes the decisions on where the services are in demand. I welcome the Taoiseach's comments on that.

My party leader, Deputy McDonald, and I have previously raised the issue of the Department of Education's delay in completing the review into the ex gratia scheme for those people who were sexually abused while attending Irish primary and secondary schools. We both have noted the hurt and anger this delay continues to cause the survivors of Creagh Lane National School in my constituency in Limerick and in many other places. Deputy McDonald wrote to the Taoiseach and to the Minister two months ago on behalf of the Creagh Lane survivors and to date has received no response. This is a scandal. The survivors do not even know if they are included in the review system. When Deputy McDonald raised this matter with the former Minister for Education in December 2019, he stated that the ex gratia scheme was being reviewed by his Department. It would appear from questions asked of the current and previous Ministers that little progress has been made in the intervening period. This is completely unacceptable. It must be remembered that the only reason there is a scheme is down to the heroic efforts of Louise O'Keeffe, who was fought by the State at every turn in her campaign for justice. Even then, the Government sought, wrongly, to limit its responsibility to many of the survivors.

Almost two years have passed since the former Taoiseach publicly committed to reopening the ex gratia scheme. Earlier this year, the current Taoiseach told the Dáil that he is keen to see the review concluded. People who were in Creagh Lane do not even know whether they are included. Will the Taoiseach tell us the reasons for the protracted delays in the review and what actions will be taken to ensure its conclusion?

If my constituency is anything to go by, there is a real problem with the Department of Education delivering school buildings, autism spectrum disorder, ASD, units, which we know are needed, and school facilities. The latest in a long line of examples is St. Mary's Boys National School in Booterstown. I met representatives from there this week. They have made a request of the Department of Education for the acquisition of an existing building. Nothing needs to be built. It has a parish hall available to it for an ASD unit and for the additional school facilities it lacks. There is an acknowledged need for a unit in the area but the Department of Education seems to be incapable of making a decision. When I ask questions on the school's behalf I cannot get an answer. Will the Taoiseach look into this? This special needs provision is desperately required.

This speaks to a larger problem. Sallynoggin Educate Together National School has no temporary site for a school this September and no permanent site. Gaelscoil Laighean is moving between one temporary site and another and there is still uncertainty about a permanent site. Dún Laoghaire Educate Together National School is moving from one temporary site to another. For years, The Red Door School has been in a completely unsuitable temporary site. Gaelscoil Phádraig in Ballybrack has been in a temporary site for years. Does the Department understand the meaning of planning for schools that exist or for ASD units where there is an acknowledged need, and the urgent decision-making required to give people certainty about the provision of facilities and school buildings?

Yesterday, the Taoiseach was quoted in The Irish Times as stating that the leaving certificate is fair but does not measure the breadth of a person's ability. We could debate this. The Taoiseach is using a very narrow definition of what is fair and unfair. Yesterday, there was another story in The Irish Times on something that even in this narrow definition appears to be very unfair for a select group of students. This is the fact that, according to the newspaper, significant numbers of leaving certificate students have ended up being marked down in their oral examinations this year, through no fault of their own, due to shortcomings in the way interviews were conducted, according to some examiners. The newspaper states one examiner for the German orals marked 78 candidates and estimated that a majority lost marks due to omissions on the part of the teachers who conducted the interviews. The examiner stated that to penalise students for no fault of their own is not fair nor is it candidate-centred. This is absolutely correct. The idea any student should be penalised as a result of mistakes made by the person doing the interviewing is absolutely horrendous. Will the Taoiseach tell us how many students have been affected by this? Will he confirm there will not be a cover-up of this? The newspaper story seems to suggest there was some attempt at a cover-up. Will the Taoiseach please give a commitment to those students affected that no one will lose out due to mistakes, which presumably were genuine mistakes, made by the interviewers and that the students will not pay the price for them?

I want to ask the Taoiseach about future planning for the use of technology in post-primary schools. The Taoiseach may not be familiar with the independent review group in Ratoath College in County Meath, which is shining a light on the problems emerging with a policy that has no uniformity and no structure across the board to deal with technology and the provision of iPads and other digital equipment for students. The independent review group's report shows that in this situation the question of digital poverty and device inequality looms large. There are many cases where parents and teachers struggle to pay for devices post-primary children need in order to learn. If we want to move to a system that is now commonplace throughout Europe we need some uniformity across the education structure. Whether it is access to the Internet inside or outside school is a separate debate. What type of technology we use is also a separate debate. The point is whether the Department is about to fund the provision of technological devices for post-primary schools so that no child is left behind and everybody is treated the same. The report looks at the school prior to Covid and during Covid. It shines a light on the problems and, of course, these problems intensified during the pandemic and lockdown. Will the Taoiseach comment on this? Would he care to highlight the glaring gap in poverty, digital poverty and digital inequality that exists throughout secondary education?

I recall that it was the Labour Party many years ago which stated that there would be 500 multidenominational schools. That was without a plan at all and had to do with the amalgamation of existing buildings. Be that as it may, I am very committed to the provision of multidenominational schools. When I was Minister for Education and Science in the late 1990s, I was responsible for the first breakthrough in taking away the contribution that had to be made up until then. It was impossible for new schools and new patrons to finance new buildings and purchase land. The demographics and the locations dictate. We now go out to communities to invite them, through plebiscites, to decide what form of school patron or school they want and they vote accordingly. Progress is being made in respect of this.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan and others raised the issue of autism and special needs more generally. Approximately €2 billion is now being spent on special needs education, which is 50% more than in 2011. There is huge provision of special needs assistants, with approximately 18,000 provided for in 2021 and they deal with well over 40,000 students. No school will suffer a reduction in its allocation for the school year 2021 to 2022 and this is an important point. As Deputies know, we have thousands of other provisions in special education.

With regard to Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan's point, I am anxious to ensure that there is a more structured approach to ensuring that there are places in given areas for students so that parents will know well in advance that there is a place for their child the following September and will not have to go through the struggle of going from school to school trying to secure places for their children, which is unacceptable. In this respect, we need to look more broadly at ownership and patronage more generally. Very often, we go to certain providers who state they do not have any more capacity to add a school or a class or take extra places. This is not good enough any more, particularly when the State has to fulfil a constitutional obligation to make sure children have access to education. A special needs child has an equal right to access education as children in mainstream situations and I am very clear about this. There may be an increased role for education and training boards where there are gaps and where people do not come forward quickly and speedily in order that the State enters quickly and speedily and provides additional places, builds schools and gets on with it. We had a meeting of the Cabinet sub-committee, to which Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan and others alluded, to examine the legislation. The legislation in place was introduced some years ago.

We are going over time and there are three questions left. I will allow an extra minute.

To respond to Deputy Gannon's point on compassion, I have a lot of sympathy for this. When I was Minister for Education and Science 20 years ago, I tried to introduce an alternative approach for someone who suffers an appalling bereavement or trauma in the middle of the leaving certificate examination. To be fair, at the time the view of the examinations section was it could undermine broader marking schemes. It was considering this with a view towards fairness. That said, unfortunately, some people suffer a terrible trauma and students are expected to go through exams in the middle or aftermath of such a trauma. There is a big legitimate issue and I will ask the Minister for Education to look at it again not just with regard to 2019 but more broadly given the experiences we have had during Covid.

In response to Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan regarding special needs and genuine ASD needs and provision, and Deputy Quinlivan in terms of the review, I have been in touch with the Minister for Education in relation to that and I am pursuing that. I myself have been involved in that for quite some time and I am anxious that that review would come to a conclusion. The Minister will be back to me, hopefully, within a short time.

Deputy Boyd Barrett mentioned some individual specific schools which I can relate back to the Department. I do not have the operational details on specific schools.

In response to Deputy Paul Murphy, I am not aware of that given situation in terms of examiners and the assertions the Deputy made. I am sure the Department will respond to those assertions and we will seek replies on those.

In terms of technology in post-primary schools, for many years Governments have been supporting technology in post-primary schools. The latest economic recovery plan - we have applied to Europe for substantial funding for a recovery and resilience plan - involves very substantial investment in technology in schools of up to €60 million, if I am not mistaken. That would take a variety of forms in terms of both increased connectivity for schools and the deployment of technology devices etc.

In fairness, there has always been a policy to discriminate in favour of Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS, schools or schools where there is considerable socioeconomic disadvantage.

Top
Share