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Defence Forces

Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 27 January 2022

Thursday, 27 January 2022

Questions (97, 99, 103, 111, 120)

Barry Cowen

Question:

97. Deputy Barry Cowen asked the Minister for Defence when he expects the numbers in the Defence Forces to reach 9,500; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3768/22]

View answer

Jim O'Callaghan

Question:

99. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan asked the Minister for Defence the proportion of commissioned officers in the Defence Forces that have less than five years’ experience; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3770/22]

View answer

John Lahart

Question:

103. Deputy John Lahart asked the Minister for Defence the number of new recruits it is planned to recruit in the Defence Forces in 2022; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3819/22]

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Bernard Durkan

Question:

111. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Defence the extent to which the strength of the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps is being kept up to what is deemed to be the optimum; that any reviews do not result in a reduction in strength given the various duties and services provided by the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3876/22]

View answer

Jim O'Callaghan

Question:

120. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan asked the Minister for Defence the current level of turnover or churn amongst Defence Forces personnel; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3771/22]

View answer

Oral answers (16 contributions)

My question is about the proportion of commissioned officers in the Defence Forces who have less than five years' experience. The Minister will be aware of the importance of ensuring we have sufficient experience within the commissioned officer ranks of the Defence Forces. What is the proportion and does the Minister have concerns if the proportion of officers who have that level of experience is declining?

I propose to take Questions Nos. 97, 99, 103, 111 and 120 together.

There are several Deputies here so I hope the Acting Chairman will give me some latitude when answering these questions.

As of 31 December 2021, the strength of the Permanent Defence Force was 8,468 personnel, or 89% of the agreed establishment of 9,500. While the Government remains committed to returning to, and maintaining, the agreed strength of each branch of the Defence Forces, there are a number of factors, many of which are hard to predict, that will impact on the timeframe within which this will be achieved. In addition to a range of measures already undertaken to address the staffing issues, the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces, which is currently being finalised, will also address this matter directly.

As regards current recruitment initiatives, general service recruitment is ongoing and resulted in 576 personnel being inducted in 2021. The level of turnover in the Defence Forces in 2021 was 7.89%, which includes those in training. It is worth noting that the average turnover rate for general service recruits who do not complete training, for a variety of reasons, has been approximately 30% over the past number of years. On the question raised by Deputy O'Callaghan, some 31% of commissioned officers have been inducted in the past five years.

In addition to ongoing recruitment, the scope of direct entry competitions, along with the terms and conditions, continues to be expanded and revised to improve intake. The re-entry campaign for former members of the Permanent Defence Force continues. The service commitment schemes in both the Air Corps and Naval Service and a special Naval Service tax credit for seagoing personnel are examples of targeted retention measures that I have introduced.

There has been significant progress on pay, arising out of increases due from recent pay agreements, the most recent of which was a 1% increase on annualised salaries or €500, whichever is the greater, on 1 October last year, with further increases to follow.

Additionally, the Public Service Pay Commission, PSPC, report on recruitment and retention in the Defence Forces made a range of recommendations with a view to addressing recruitment and retention issues. These have been progressed through a series of projects. While the 2022 recruitment plan is not yet finalised, the Defence Forces remain committed to optimising the number of personnel inducted.

I am confident that along with all other initiatives under way, the pay benefits delivered by the public service pay agreements, in tandem with the implementation of the PSPC recommendations, will improve recruitment and retention challenges currently experienced by the Permanent Defence Force.

Furthermore, the Commission on the Defence Forces is finalising its work with a view to completing the report as soon as possible. The commission's report, when submitted, will be fully considered at that point. There is, as one would expect, a very strong emphasis on recruitment, retention and HR within the Defence Forces in its terms of reference.

I thank the Minister for his answer. Recruitment and retention are considerably important issues in the Defence Forces. The focus of my question was to try to identify the proportion of commissioned officers who have more than five years' experience. The Minister was at the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers, RACO, conference last year and he probably heard its general secretary state that 24% of personnel in the Defence Forces had less than five years' experience but 35% of officers had less than five years' service.

This is linked to the question of recruitment and retention and it is important we try to ensure that we retain experienced officers within the Defence Forces. Experience matters a great deal, especially in areas such as defence of the country. I am not suggesting that inexperienced people do not have an important role to play, but it is important to have that body of experience among commissioned officers in the ranks of the Defence Forces. I ask the Minister whether any other options are available to ensure we can retain those commissioned officers.

The Deputy highlighted an important area. The way in which we solve the recruitment and retention issues in the Defence Forces will not simply be through a large intake in a very short space of time, because that has consequences from the perspective of training, command and control, experience and so on. That is why we have an ongoing discussion with the Defence Forces and the Chief of Staff and his team, on how we can maximise the number of people coming in each year and, at the same time, ensure we have appropriate training procedures to ensure we maintain the skill sets and leadership we need within the Defence Forces to deliver on what is asked of them.

The figure I gave was that 31%, rather than 35%, of commissioned officers have been inducted in the past five years. Either way, it is approximately one in three officers and we need to make sure we hold on to the experience in the Defence Forces, where possible. The direction of travel the commission report will provide in terms of certainty, ambition and resources may well, I hope, encourage many people to stay in the Defence Forces for longer and, in doing so, hold on to that very important experience.

We have very significant skill sets within the Defence Forces. Sometimes those skill sets are targeted from outside and people are headhunted out of the Defence Forces, be they pilots, engineers, cybersecurity experts or drivers. We need to try to make sure that what drives people to join the Defence Forces remains burning in them in terms of their willingness to stay and serve their country. A series of factors need to be taken into account for that.

I am concerned there might be an intention, as has happened in the past, in some quarters to reduce the strength of the Defence Forces on the basis that we do not need them in a modern economy. We do need them. They provide a very important service. They provide emergency services at all times, coastal surveillance and they also respond to natural disasters. They are relied upon to do these jobs and be there for the citizens of this country. Will the Minister ensure, notwithstanding the review currently under way, that there will be no attempt to reduce the strength of the Army, Naval Service or Air Corps in order that they will be in a position to provide services in the future, as they have done in the past?

All I can say to the Deputy on that is we will not have to wait for much longer to get recommendations from a very experienced group of people, led by a very able former Secretary General of the Departments of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Justice and Equality. I would be very surprised if they recommended a reduction in numbers in any of the services within the Defence Forces. In fact, I expect it will be quite the opposite.

We have capacity challenges and problems that need to be addressed throughout all three sectors of the Defence Forces - Naval Service, Air Corps and Army. We are investing significantly at the moment but I look forward to a debate on the back of that report, which will outline the levels of ambition required for Ireland to respond in a comprehensive and necessary way to the defence challenges every sovereign country needs to face up to. Historically, that discussion has sometimes been too confined in the context of the defence debate in Ireland and I hope the commission report will allow us to break out of that.

We are over time and we still have speakers to come in on this.

I was due to substitute for Deputy Cowen with a question, but I will make a brief comment instead. My question was on when we will meet the 9,500 target strength in the Permanent Defence Force. I completely agree with the Minister about the synergies in terms of private sector employment people can take up after serving in the Defence Forces. People have an opportunity to serve their country, train and perhaps educate themselves and then go on into the private sector to contribute to their country in different ways. That model always worked and it provides us with a strong skill set, especially in the tech and communications sectors. However, the difficulty now is that what might have been a stint of ten or 15 years, or even longer, in the Defence Forces before going into a senior, management, engineering or technical role in one of those organisations has become a few years, with people being moved on before they have had the opportunity to contribute to the country.

Members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence visited Haulbowline recently and heard first-hand the experience of many being recruited into the private sector and leaving, after having been trained up and invested in. It is very demoralising for all involved and particularly in light of the threatened events off the coast, it is critical the Naval Service, along with all the others, has the resources it needs.

I absolutely understand those arguments. As someone who regularly visits the naval base and other military barracks, I am very familiar with the fact that talented people in the Defence Forces are being enticed all the time out of the Defence Forces and into other jobs. If one looks at where the economy is going and the prediction to create another 167,000 jobs, which I think was the estimate this week, there is considerable talent in the Defence Forces that the private sector may well look to target. We have to make sure there is a very attractive proposition to stay in the Defence Forces in terms of personal development, training, certainty on income and, of course, the rewards of serving one's country. The HR and management issues relating to that are addressed in the commission's report.

As the Deputy has said, the issues that are currently being debated outside of this House, in terms of Russian military exercises off the Irish coast and the tension that has been building in the Russia-Ukraine situation, highlight the need for Ireland to have an honest and full debate in terms of capacity issues around defence and I look forward to having that discussion.

Time is against us. I propose the Deputies ask one supplementary question each and the Minister wrap up.

Something we need to look at is the mandatory retirement age. Part of the reason people are leaving the Defence Forces is because they know they will have to retire between the ages of 56 and 60 years. At that age, many people are just getting into their prime - I think of Deputy Durkan here beside me. Could the Minister imagine if there was a requirement in politics that people had to retire between the ages of 56 and 60 years?

Deputy Durkan still has not reached his prime.

We would lose some of the best wisdom we have in the House. That needs to be looked at again. If people know they will have to retire at 56 years, they will start making plans for their careers in their 40s and we will lose great wisdom.

Obviously, I entirely agree with my colleague's remarks, but there is a serious security issue as well that needs to be borne in mind in the course of this debate. We have had crises in the Defence Forces due to the shrinking of numbers and the failure to replace them for various reasons. We must put in place whatever provisions are necessary to ensure we retain numbers in the Defence Forces. This is a vital service. In war or in peace, we rely upon the Defence Forces in emergencies. We will continue to rely upon them in the future. That means we must have people who are committed, people who have long-term service as well as new recruits. Most important, if there are issues causing obstacles, we must identify them, deal with them, and try to ensure they are removed from the debate so that we continue to have a standing Army that is effective, efficient, modern and willing to continue to give the services it has given.

On the image of Deputy Durkan being in the Defence Forces, while the retirement age issues are something we have been considering and, as Deputy Brady and others will be aware, we managed to get agreement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in terms of the post-1997 contracts issue for the vast majority of people who have been impacted by that, and I hope to be able to conclude those discussions to ensure everybody is accommodated in that regard, we will continue to have that discussion. That is a discussion that is happening outside of the Defence Forces as well. We must remind ourselves as well that serving in the Defence Forces is different from other modes of employment. If you are stationed in Mali, the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, UNIFIL, in southern Lebanon, on the Golan Heights or in any other part of the world on a peacekeeping mission, physical fitness is linked to age as well. We need to be cautious here, but, of course, we also work with the representative bodies in the Defence Forces to ensure the appropriate retirement age is being applied.

On the next group of questions, I ask colleagues for a bit of co-operation as there are many speakers trying to come in on this and we have limited time.

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