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Cabinet Committees

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 1 February 2022

Tuesday, 1 February 2022

Questions (19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30)

Paul Murphy

Question:

19. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [2226/22]

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Mary Lou McDonald

Question:

20. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [2176/22]

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Gary Gannon

Question:

21. Deputy Gary Gannon asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education last met; and when it is next due to meet. [3076/22]

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Rose Conway-Walsh

Question:

22. Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education last met and will next meet. [3335/22]

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Alan Kelly

Question:

23. Deputy Alan Kelly asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [3314/22]

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Mick Barry

Question:

24. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [4630/22]

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Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

25. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [4699/22]

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Paul Murphy

Question:

26. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [4702/22]

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Pádraig O'Sullivan

Question:

27. Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [4711/22]

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Cathal Crowe

Question:

28. Deputy Cathal Crowe asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [4713/22]

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Cormac Devlin

Question:

29. Deputy Cormac Devlin asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [4810/22]

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Niamh Smyth

Question:

30. Deputy Niamh Smyth asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [4811/22]

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Oral answers (19 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 19 to 30, inclusive, together.

The Cabinet committee on education oversees implementation of the programme for Government commitments in the area of education, including the management of Covid in schools. This committee last met on 13 May 2021. It will meet again shortly. I have regular engagement with Ministers at Cabinet and individually to discuss priority issues relating to their Departments. The three party leaders met the Minister for Education and her officials a fortnight ago and recently had contact too. In addition, a number of meetings have been held between my officials and officials from relevant Departments since the establishment of the Cabinet committee in July 2020. That includes the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science too.

The Taoiseach admitted a year ago that the leaving certificate was inflexible and that a new system was needed. Here we are, after two years of no traditional leaving certificate, as it is called, and now the Government is absolutely determined, against the wishes of 68% of students, to drive through a return to a so-called traditional leaving certificate. In addition to the usual anxieties that cause more than 50% of students to suffer from physical or mental illness as a result of the leaving certificate, are inadequacy of preparation and so on. The announcements did not even include mention of extra third level places to reduce competition. Instead, what is proposed is a recipe for massive points inflation, severe pressure on students and the continuation of this unnecessary rat race. Will the Taoiseach please reconsider the position and provide the investment to ensure that there will be places at third level for all who want them?

It is disappointing that the Government has failed to hear and to respond to the reasonable request from leaving certificate students for fairness and recognise the level of disruption that they have suffered over the past two years. Here is what at least some of them are saying on social media platforms, which are the chosen platforms of this generation. Isobel stated: "I am so upset, disheartened and stressed right now I could cry." She also stated: "Just had the mental breakdown of the century to my parents." Ben stated: "...hard to believe that my year may be the only year in the history of the LC at this kind of disadvantage." Alisa stated: "I’m stressed enough as it is about the leaving cert so if I have to sit a traditional leaving cert everything is gonna be worse. We have missed too much time." Emma stated,: "the past two years have been exhausting for everyone, how can 17/18 yr olds be expected to sit important exams after missing out on crucial educational time? Disgrace". Emma is quite correct.

One of the justifications the Government has given today for not affording students a hybrid leaving certificate is that 25% of the students do not have a junior certificate. I have never liked the leaving certificate but one of the arguments made in its favour by its proponents is that it is a fair exam that everybody sits on the same day. Now we have a scenario where three out of four students have had the practice of sitting a State examination but one out of four has not. Automatically, the logic of fairness goes out the window because some students have an advantage.

We had two reports, one from the Ombudsman for Children and the other from the Special Rapporteur on Child Protection, which clearly show that the pandemic has had a worse impact on children from disadvantaged areas than children from other communities around Ireland. Some students did not have access to laptops or remote study options, some missed school for a multitude of reasons, some did not have class time because their teachers were out sick and so on. Not every student experienced the pandemic in the same way but they are all being asked to sit the same examination, one that will have a real impact on their future. It is really unfair. The Government is grotesquely incorrect in pursuing this course.

The Taoiseach can kiss goodbye to the votes of 60,000 leaving certificate students. As far as they are concerned they have been betrayed by the Minister for Education and the Government and they are not wrong. These students are a credit to themselves for the way they have campaigned, lobbied, gone on radio and protested. They gave the Government every chance to listen but it has decided not to do so. To add insult to injury, the Government is now forcing students to compete between themselves for a limited number of places at third level. The CAO deadline is today. It is bad enough to do that at any time but worse again in a pandemic year. I put it to the Taoiseach that his Government should invest heavily in third level to train the extra nurses, doctors, teachers, apprentices and others we need and offer far more college places next year for our leaving certificate students.

I urge the Taoiseach to go down to his local second level school at the next opportunity, to walk into the sixth year class and observe the students all wearing masks, with the windows open, to count the number of teachers and students who are out because of the pandemic, and tell them that everything is going back to normal. The Taoiseach knows that if the schools were closed, the Department would find a mechanism to deliver a hybrid leaving certificate. All of the excuses the Taoiseach is trotting out about the junior certificate or the idea that school profiling was going to be essential just do not stand up to any scrutiny. The fact is the Government is dealing with a very conservative Department of Education and is failing to take it on. I implore the Taoiseach to go down to his local second level school and tell the students, with their masks on, the windows open, and the teachers out, that they can just go back to normal. The Government has failed to take on the Department of Education and its conservatism and it has failed the students.

The leaving certificate should be scrapped. It was never a fair exam. It always discriminated against those with special needs and those from disadvantaged areas and all of that has been compounded and made worse in the teeth of a pandemic. Will the Government take the bold step now, which could get us out of this mess, and say that everybody should be able to study the higher or further education course or apprenticeship of their choice? Imagine that. Imagine what it would be like if people got to study what they wanted to study at third level. It would make even more sense given the chronic shortage of psychologists, doctors, nurses, construction workers and so on. You name it, we have skills shortages and yet we want to maintain a stressful, gate-keeping exercise which makes it more difficult for our young people to advance.

Last year when the Taoiseach assumed office we were presented with a situation in Cork where nearly 40 families had no special education place for their children. Since that time, we have opened a special needs school in Carrigaline and last week the Minister for Education confirmed to me in the House that a site has been also selected in my own town of Glanmire for another special education school. Given the problems we have had in Cork and the bottleneck that was recognised in the past, will the Taoiseach assure the House of his full support in ensuring that the Glanmire site will be progressed as quickly as possible.

I am afraid we have run out of time so the Taoiseach has only one minute to respond to all Deputies.

I appreciate the work Deputy O'Sullivan has been doing on special education and can confirm that the Government will support the acquisition of that site.

On the broader issue of the leaving certificate, things are not going back to normal, as Deputy Ó Ríordáin has suggested. This exam will not be the same as that which would have been put together in 2018 or 2019 in that about one third of the content has been cut back. The Minister did listen to the students. No one has come up with any alternative on the accredited grades. The fact that 25% of students did not sit the junior certificate and their data could not be used in an alternative accredited grades system is a very important point which is just being ignored in terms of any responses.

Students wanted clarity and certainty and that has been given. They also wanted greater choice on the exam papers and in the oral exams and that has been given, quite substantially. I went through some instances of that earlier today in respect of the English, maths, biology, art and accountancy papers. Very significant additional choice has been given to students and the burden reduced. It will not compare to 2019 or 2018 because of the greater choice being given.

The other key issue that students were anxious about was that they would not be disadvantaged in terms of grade inflation relative to the students of 2021. That has been also agreed by the Minister and that will be the case via the marking scheme and standardisation. The one area where the Minister could not respond was on accredited grades; not because she did not want to but because it would not have been as fair as last year. The Department could not devise a system that would have been as fair as last year's system, simply because we could not use the data of about 25% of the students because they had not done the junior certificate.

It is not about taking on the Department. I do not believe the Department is conservative on curriculum reform. There will be further reforms of the leaving certificate, as there should be. I would say to Deputy Boyd Barrett that the one aspect of the leaving certificate that has endure is fairness.

It is absolutely unfair.

Irrespective of background, in terms of access to higher level, it is not who you know in this country. It is crude, I accept that-----

Look at the figures-----

-----and it needs to be reformed.

-----90% of people from Dublin 6, 10% from DEIS.

That is not because of the leaving certificate and the Deputy knows that. That goes back much earlier-----

It compounds and crystallises it.

That is how privilege is locked in.

That concludes questions to An Taoiseach. Various Members are indicating that they may not have gone in on the appropriate list. I have a list before me and I can only work from that. The odd time I am not perfect but the list before me was as I took the speakers today.

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