Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions
48. Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science the steps that are being taken to increase places at third level for in-demand courses to address skill shortages and take unnecessary pressure off the leaving certificate system; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6457/22]
View answerThe Government has decided to deny the students the choice when it comes to this year's leaving certificate. This is despite students having come through years of a severely disrupted leaving certificate cycle. I and Sinn Féin believe that that is wrong and they should have had a choice. Students deserve to be given a choice. What steps has the Minister taken to ensure additional places are made available on the in-demand courses, particularly those courses where there is both a high demand and a skills shortage?
Sinn Féin's government in Northern Ireland has decided that the A-levels should proceed. It did not offer anybody in Northern Ireland a choice. I do not think young people who look across the island will ignore the breathtaking hypocrisy of the stance that Sinn Féin has about the exams down here and the stance it has about the exams up there. I have met students, as I am sure the Deputy has. I have been in countless schools across the country. I think I have been in five or six counties in the past week. When I talk to students now, I find that they are happy with the certainty and clarity when I take them through the options they have in regard to the papers, and when I take them through the really good decision that my colleague, the Minister for Education, took on grade inflation. It compares very much favourably with an area on which Sinn Féin has been very quiet in respect of the A-levels in Northern Ireland. I am sure that the Deputy will respond-----
When Fine Gael has representation in the North, we will deal with that. I look forward to it.
Sinn Féin has representation in the North. We generally engage constructively, but taking young people for fools is not going to wash at all.
We are not taking anybody for fools.
The leader of Sinn Féin in Northern Ireland is, or at least was, the joint head of the Government. A-levels are going ahead with no predicted or calculated grades. Where Sinn Féin is in government, it is not making the announcement that it is shouting and roaring for down here in opposition. Be that as it may, Sinn Féin is actually a partitionist party when it comes to the issue of educational policy. It is the same on college fees, but we will get to that in a moment.
Right, Minister.
It has to be said; it cannot just be one-way traffic. It cannot just be given; it has to be taken as well
Do not worry.
If Sinn Féin is serious about government, it needs to be consistent in its stance, North and South.
With regard to this issue and what steps I am taking, this Government has increased the places in third level by 6,000 over the past two years. That is a massive increase. It is important that leaving certificate students hear that the number of applications to the CAO on deadline day this year versus last year was down 1,141. I say that to be, hopefully, somewhat reassuring to students. Now that we know the situation in respect of the leaving certificate and we have clarity earlier than we had last year, we will shortly see the breakdown from the CAO of how many students applied for the different courses. My Department will do what we did last year and the year before. We will work with the system on additional places. I fully agree with the Deputy on the issue of in-demand places. I have gone over my time. I would like to talk about that in my next response in regard to medicine and some of the steps we want to take this year.
We need to recognise that grade inflation is only part of the story. The fact that CAO points are going up is also about how many places are available. Every year more students are sitting the leaving certificate, but as the Minister has admitted so many times, third-level education is not adequately funded. He must take responsibility for that. His party has been in government since 2011. This has led to an increase in the number of courses that are cheaper to deliver rather than an expansion of in-demand courses that reflect the real needs of the economy and society. I do not blame the individual colleges. This is how the funding model is set up by the Government. The Government has announced thousands of additional places in the past few years, yet it has had little effect on the pressure of the CAO points,-----
That is wrong.
-----the in-demand courses or the stress of leaving certificate students. That needs to be faced up to. It is important that we admit that the skill needs in our society are not being met in a number of vital areas, particularly healthcare and construction. There is a shortage of dentists, nurses, mental health professionals, as well as quantity surveyors, engineers, architects and many others. There is demand from students and a need from society. We need to join the dots here. A clear example of this is that the number of undergraduate medical places has essentially not increased in the past ten years.
I fully agree with the Deputy that this year should not just be about announcing an additional number of college places. More college places will be available this year. As the Deputy rightly suggested, it has been the case in previous years as well. Budget 2022 provided approximately €20 million for extra growth in the higher education sector. There will be additional funding and places. As the Deputy correctly pointed out, the bigger challenge is to try and focus in this year on the in-demand courses or the courses where there are particular pressure points. One such course is medicine. I fully agree that from a public health policy point of view, we need more doctors. As she will be aware, it is not just a case of creating a college place, because for every place on a medicine course, a training hospital place is required. It is a similar story with dentistry and a number of other courses. What my Department has been doing for the past number of months, and is intensifying now, is trying to work with Department of Health to identify whether we can provide X number more of funded medicine places in September across our college system and the Department of Health can provide Y more training places. I expect to be in a position to bring forward good news on that. Our focus is exactly as the Deputy suggested in looking at the in-demand areas and the areas in which we want to see public service improvement.
The Minister has a responsibility to ensure that people are being trained to have the skills that our society needs. It is not simply about students getting onto the courses that they want; it is about the proper planning for the skills that we need in the future.
Almost 4,000 students enrol in pre-nursing courses. Fewer than 5% of them go on to further education to get nursing degrees in the State. Similarly, people go abroad. The Minister constantly mentions pre-law courses when discussing alternative pathways, but his Department does not collect data on the number of students that progress to law degrees. It is always about places and place availability tomorrow, but we need to be straight and honest with people. We are not providing the education for what we need in society, particularly in the area of medicine. We are not providing what is needed for those nursing students that need the pathway to get into our health service. That, together with the chronic underfunding of higher education, is why there is a shortage of people to fill those positions.
No, it is not. It is about pathways, actually. It is about recognising that different students will want to do different things. I think the Deputy and I agree that it is about broadening the conversation beyond just higher education to further education apprenticeships. It is about ending the snobby and elitist view that when someone goes to a school, the student believes that the only conversation to have is about the CAO and points. It is complete nonsense. It is a system that we have developed here without any policy debate. It is one of the reasons we have had a shortage of tradespeople in this country. It is because of that pressurised view that we have created that success is about taking one particular path. That is why, this year, the CAO website has been changed. That is why, this year, we have seen a record number of people - 8,607 - apply to be apprentices, which is more than ever before in the history of our State. Most of them applied for craft apprenticeships. It is why the CAO.ie/options web page has seen 15,646 direct users – students, one would presume – go and check out apprenticeships from that link. It is absolutely about pathways. It is about recognising that different students will want to do different things.
On the pre-nursing issue, and I want to agree with the Deputy on this, we need to see more places ring-fenced in higher education for pre-nursing students, and not just a general increase in the overall nursing numbers. That is something I am actively working on with the institutions.
49. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science if his Department will commission an audit of buildings and teaching practices in third-level institutions to determine the accommodations that must be made for students with a disability. [5972/22]
View answerI ask the Minister whether his Department will commission an audit of buildings and teaching practices in third-level institutions to determine the accommodations that can, and must, be made to enable greater access to students with disabilities.
I thank the Deputy for the question, which is very timely. I have some positive news and perhaps we can build on it. Inclusion is a core goal for my Department, for the House and for Members on all sides of this House. It is about ensuring that there is access and equity of access for all students of both further and higher education. It is most likely that we will publish a new national access and inclusion plan with a budget of €5 million to deliver on measures in 2022 in March.
While higher education institutions, HEIs, are autonomous, the approach of my Department has been to offer a range of supports that enable them to meet national objectives, including those relating to inclusion and supports for people with disabilities. Last year, for example, we provided €5.8 million in funding for initiatives in 24 HEIs aimed at supporting students with disabilities to access and engage with higher education. That has delivered a variety of projects, including sensory spaces, training of staff, development of assistive technology, mental health supports, development of wayfinding apps to help students with disabilities navigate their way around campuses, and capital accessibility improvements to campuses. This strategic projects fund was additional to the standard fund for students with disabilities.
As regards the specific question on buildings and estates, I am pleased to inform the Deputy that the Higher Education Authority, HEA, is in the process of finalising what it describes as a detailed space survey of the higher education estate. As part of this survey, HEIs have been asked to indicate the compliance of their buildings with part M of the building regulations, which addresses access for people with disabilities. The survey will be regularly updated and progress on the issue will be monitored and reported going forward. Institutions can address issues of non-compliance - of course, people have to be helped to become compliant - using funding from devolved capital grants, or as part of a broader building upgrade project. In this respect, I am pleased I will this week launch a new phase of capital investment calls that will include an emphasis on alignment with universal design principles and fostering inclusion in all its facets.
The Deputy is onto a very important issue here. The space survey will be a foundation on which we can build.
I am delighted to hear the news hot off the press that a space survey will be carried out by the HEA and that the Minister will launch the new phase of capital investment calls later this week. It is welcome that will include this emphasis on universal design principles. What both I and the Labour Party spokesperson on higher education, Senator Hoey, have been hearing is that many students and potential students who are not even counted in figures kept by universities and colleges on students with disabilities require greater levels of accommodation and support. It is thought that as many as 20% of students currently in higher education have a disability. That is a sizeable minority of students, not all of whom may have indicated to college authorities that they are in that cohort. There are potential students who would like to go to college but need greater encouragement, facilitation and support to do so. My experience of engagement as a college tutor for many years with the disability office in Trinity College Dublin is that the office is superb but students with disabilities do not want to have to raise concerns about access at every interval. That is why universal design principles are so crucial. They should be accommodated in building design so that students do not have to keep asking. I ask the Minister to elaborate on the capital funding allocations.
I find myself in full agreement with the Deputy. To be honest, one of my concerns in respect of the national access plan, which has achieved a great deal, is exactly what she and Senator Hoey have identified, that is, there are people with disabilities not counted within those figures. I think of students with autism or those with intellectual disabilities or dyslexia. There are others who are not counted. There is more work to be done in respect of students with visual impairments and the likes. I had a very good meeting recently with the National Council for the Blind of Ireland, NCBI, and the Dyslexia Association of Ireland regarding some of the assistive technology they introduced during the pandemic and how they wish to now make that permanent and spread it. I have had very good meetings with, and visits to, the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities, which the Deputy knows very well. It is quite an inspiring place.
Alongside the capital plan, she should expect a more comprehensive definition of a student with a disability in the national access and inclusion plan, as she and Senator Hoey are suggesting. If something is not measured, its progress cannot be monitored. Although there has been progress in respect of disabilities, the definition has been too narrow, quite frankly.
I thank the Minister. The NCBI told us recently that lack of access to curriculum and learning materials is one of the main factors preventing students with visual impairments from reaching their potential. Building on the remarks of the Minister, it also reported that the number of students with disabilities in third level is growing, which is very welcome and largely to do with the successful access programmes and disability offices and centres such as the inspirational centre at Trinity College Dublin to which he referred. However, the number of students with sensory disabilities, visual or hearing impairment or severe speech impairment is not growing at the same rate. It is clear the access programmes for students in those particular groups are not having the same effect and that needs to be examined. There are several related issues in respect of facilitation in studying abroad and engaging in work placements, all of which would be of significant support and benefit to any student who is able to participate. Again, of course, those with disabilities may find additional obstacles facing them in taking up places on Erasmus+ programmes, internships or work programmes. I ask that in rolling out programmes on access for students with disabilities, account is taken of these perhaps hidden issues and facets of college life.
I will absolutely take that on board. I present the issue as two separate and distinct but very much interdependent parts, as does her question, in fairness. There is the capital piece, on which I expect we will make further progress through both the existing fund we have in place for students with disabilities and the drawdown of that fund to provide facilities such as sensory rooms that are beginning to roll out. In addition, our capital calls, which can be expected later this week, will involve a focus in the criteria on inclusion, universal design and the likes, that will mean that projects coming forward will begin to rectify this.
The second part of the Deputy's question is even more interesting, perhaps, because alongside the bricks and mortar, it is about things like teaching methods. Many students in general, but particularly students with disabilities, have told me they would like things that became commonplace during the pandemic, such as recorded lectures, to become embedded. Obviously, that requires discussion with staff representative bodies but we want it to happen. I refer to initiatives such as the wayfinding app, where people have been able to use assistive technology. It is very much about the bricks and mortar alongside the use of technology and the teaching methods. We are committed to funding and progressing both but also, crucially, trying to measure in our new plan disabilities that have not been measured in previous national access plans.
50. Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science the cause of the 17% increase in apprentices waiting to access off-the-job training in the past two months, which has brought the total back up to half of all craft apprentices currently on waiting lists; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6458/22]
View answerToo many apprentices have been failed throughout the pandemic. They were unable to access the offsite training they needed to complete or advance their apprenticeships and become the qualified tradespeople we sorely need. It is truly alarming that there has been a 17% increase in apprentices waiting to access off-the-job training in the past two months, with figures back up to just under 10,000. That represents half of all craft apprentices. What has caused this and what steps are being taken to address it?
I thank the Deputy for her question. The backlog in apprenticeship training to which reference was made results from the adverse impact of Covid public health restrictions on the operation of the education and training sector. In responding to these restrictions, it has been a priority to seek to facilitate, whenever possible, access to on-site teaching and learning for essential skills-based activities such as apprenticeship. However, the Deputy will appreciate that education and training providers have been closed for extended periods since March 2020 on public health grounds and that during periods when apprenticeship classes were permitted, they were running at half capacity under social distancing measures.
A detailed and comprehensive emergency plan to tackle apprenticeship waiting lists has been under way across further education and training since August 2021, when some training facilities started to reopen. At that point, 11,859 apprentices were delayed in their training. Since then, a €20 million additional capital investment has provided a large increase in workshops and equipment in every training location in the country. A further €17 million was provided under budget 2022 to further facilitate the response of SOLAS and the HEA, including a significant recruitment campaign to increase the number of trainers.
By the end of January, almost 7,000, or 60%, of those on the July 2021 waiting list were back in training or had completed their phase of training and were progressing in their apprenticeship. The number waiting at the end of January 2022 was 9,570, reflecting the rapid growth in registrations during 2021 and to date in 2022.
Craft apprenticeships are demand-led, with no restrictions on registrations in any single year. The current apprentice population is more than 24,000, the highest it has been since 2009. Apprenticeship registrations in 2021 were the highest they have been since 2007, with 8,607 apprentices employed on 62 programmes. Some 6,955 registrations were in craft apprenticeship programmes, with more than 60% of these in the electrical, plumbing, carpentry and joinery crafts.
My Department, SOLAS and other apprenticeship partners are actively working on additional measures to ensure the waiting list is removed as speedily as possible, enabling apprentices to progress through their apprenticeship as quickly as is feasible. By the end of the year, the vast majority of apprentices waiting for phase 2 placement will have started this training.
By the start of April, the backlog for phases 4 and 6 will be cleared.
I thank the Minister of State. On the phases, in September, we had 1,000 in phase 6 and 2,000 in phase 4, but the vast majority - 7,000 - were in phase 2 at that time. In one sense, when the Minister of State gives the figures and says that phases 4 and 6 will be cleared by April, I obviously welcome that, but the vast majority are in phase 2. We need to be careful of that.
It is positive that apprenticeship registrations are up, and this is to be welcomed. The Minister of State should, however, be careful of what he takes credit for unless he wants to accept the blame for the collapse of registration numbers in the past. Craft apprenticeship registrations reflect demand in the construction sector, but the Minister of State cannot explain why 10,000 people were unable to access the off-the-job education component because the target was surpassed by 300. This happened months after people had been taken back to work at full capacity. How can we have insufficient capacity when the Minister of State has spent the past year and a half telling us he was ramping up capacity to deal with the backlog? Things just do not add up. The true figure is even higher, because his Department removes apprentices from the waiting lists when they get the start date for the training and not when they actually start.
I thank the Deputy for her comments. In the initial reply I outlined to the Deputy that significant money had been applied to this issue and I believe she has acknowledged that. In total, across both this year and last year, €37 million will have been made available to address this issue. This includes a change in the structure of phase 2 off-the-job training which will facilitate a third intake of apprentices per annum and an opt-in rapid employer assessment, which has been piloted at phase 7 for the on-the-job element, for those apprentices who have completed phase 6 and who have spent more than four years in their apprenticeship scheme.
The Deputy is aware of the apprenticeship incentivisation scheme and the impact that has had, and I have spoken about the increase in registrations. We brought in that scheme during Covid-19 when it was extended and played a vital role in ramping up the numbers who came in at a period when there were other demands in our sector.
There are 500-odd fewer apprentices who became qualified tradespeople in 2021 than in 2020, despite the reopening in September. I want to know when the waiting lists will be cleared and the apprentices will be able to complete the training in the allocated four years, like every other student? The people with the skills we need to meet housing and retrofit targets need to be valued and the system that trains them needs to be functioning properly. Instead, the Minister of State's Department, over 2020 and 2021, saved more money due to the waiting lists than was spent in addressing the backlog. The State saved more than €55 million, mostly from apprentice allowances, and only reinvested €37 million. The Minister of State has left almost €1 billion sitting unused in the National Training Fund.
To make matters worse, in a written response to me, the Minister of State actually used the backlog as a justification for his plans to reform the apprenticeship model. These reforms were previously described by the Connect Trade Union as essentially privatisation of the service. Is the Minister of State allowing the system to collapse so that he can justify dismantling the craft apprenticeship model?
With respect to the Deputy, that is total nonsense. To try to present a scenario that we are trying to accrue savings and not invest in apprenticeships or not reform the whole space is simply not the case, and the Deputy knows this. We have 62 apprenticeships up and running, as the Deputy is aware, and we have approximately another 20 in development and approximately another 15 expressions of interest. We launched the Action Plan for Apprenticeship 2021 to 2025, which has a number of key targets in diversity and equality. We have set up and resourced the National Apprenticeship Office and the stakeholder alliance which will support that. There is a great deal happening in this space as the Deputy knows well. We are moving into completely new and unprecedented areas. The Deputy’s presentation is that the house is falling down, on which I simply cannot agree with her. The Deputy’s contribution was more a statement than a question and this is my reply to it.
