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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-12-12/6/
12 Dec 1934 - Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934.
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-29/4/
29 Aug 1934 - Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934—Committee Stage.
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-09-05/3/
5 Sep 1934 - Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934—Report Stage.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-05/10/
5 Jul 1934 - Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934—First Stage.
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-12-12/6/
12 Dec 1934 - "Dáil Eireann has agreed to the amendments made by Seanad Eireann to the Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934."
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-19/24/
19 Jul 1934 - Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934—Second Stage (Resumed).
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-18/31/
18 Jul 1934 - Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934—Second Stage.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-09-12/4/
12 Sep 1934 - Agricultural Co-Operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934—From the Seanad. In Committee.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-08-08/10/
8 Aug 1934 - Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934—Report and Final Stages.
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-22/11/
22 Aug 1934 - Public Business. - Agricultural Co-operative Societies Debentures Bill, 1934—Second Stage.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-08-01/17/
1 Aug 1934 - In Committee on Finance. - Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934—Committee Stage.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-08-01/16/
1 Aug 1934 - In Committee on Finance. - Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Bill, 1934—Money Resolution.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-18/31/
18 Jul 1934 - Corporation and banks. The object of Section 6 of the Bill is to give co-operative agricultural societies... Mr. Aiken I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time." Co-operative societies registered..., and the credit of the co-operative societies is immediately affected whenever they attempt to issue debentures... of agricultural co-operative societies, and will be welcomed by bodies such as the Agricultural Credit... Corporation to some co-operative agricultural societies on the understanding that the uncalled capital
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-18/31/
18 Jul 1934 - Mr. Curran The object of this Bill is simply to give authority to co-operative societies to issue... debentures. As one who has been associated with a co-operative society for not so very long, I... think that the worst thing that could happen co-operative societies is to issue debentures. With regard... the position. I am sure that the principle of the Bill is to give capital to co-operative societies... on the responsibility for that rather than issue debentures; that is, if co-operative societies need capital
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-29/4/
29 Aug 1934 - we give to co-operative societies to issue debentures and a separate Bill dealing...-operative society. The Agricultural Credit Corporation does not propose to take debentures from... by agricultural co-operative societies, has nothing to do with the Agricultural Credit Corporation. If you like... nothing to do with the Agricultural Credit Corporation. It has to do with debentures for any co... in a co-operative society. I think I stated here that the ordinary members would be acquainted
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-09-05/3/
5 Sep 1934 - (6) No issue of debentures shall be made by an agricultural co-operative society under... this section unless and until a resolution approving the issue of such debentures shall have been passed... by a special meeting of the shareholders of such society convened for the purpose of passing such resolution.
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-29/4/
29 Aug 1934 - number of societies such as have been mentioned. There must be a great number of co-operative... the whole intention of the Bill would be destroyed if its operation was limited to a few co-operative... societies in the country that would be relieved by such a Bill as this. I know some myself. I think... Mr. Dillon I do not agree that this Bill should be limited in its application to any particular... societies. I have no great doubts about the shareholders being consulted as to the issuing
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-22/11/
22 Aug 1934 - of the issue of debentures by co-operative societies when that Bill comes along. There is an objection.... They are to be called agricultural co-operative societies. There is no such thing as an agricultural co-operative... an agricultural co-operative society. It may not be any more agricultural than other societies... the whole co-operative movement in the main Bill will be known as the Agricultural Co-operative... and Seanad. A registrar will be appointed to look after agricultural co-operative societies. He
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-18/31/
18 Jul 1934 - societies? The position is that, at one fell swoop, an agricultural credit co-operative society may... the Minister think that is not going to have an effect on the credit of all agricultural co-operative... trade creditors and is not going to improve the position of co-operative societies as a whole. I... should like to ask the Minister what portion of an agricultural co-operative society's debts is due... hand what they are giving with the other. I see, according to Section 4, that an Agricultural Co
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-18/31/
18 Jul 1934 - week. The idea of issuing debentures on the uncalled capital of an agricultural co-operative.... If the agricultural society is in a bad way there are different ways of coming to its aid... incurred by men in a local area by issuing debentures on the uncalled capital of an agricultural... society and calling it finance and that this House is asked to give its imprimatur to it is an outrage... society. This uncalled capital in many cases, we know, is not only worthless. Is there going to be any
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-19/24/
19 Jul 1934 - debentures. I would say that there is no reasonable objection to giving co-operative societies power... on their part to give co-operative societies outright the power of issuing debentures if necessary. A number... Mr. Aiken Anybody who has any knowledge of co-operative societies, or of any other business... for that matter, knows that at some time or another a co-operative society or business may get... assets or bonds, or something else. One of the assets of a co-operative society is the balance
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-18/31/
18 Jul 1934 - . The law is that a co-operative society has nothing with which to raise the wind except a bill of sale... this S.O.S. on behalf of co-operative societies and pull wool across the eyes of the banks. If a co...-operative society is in difficulties and the shares are not fully subscribed, to issue debentures while... with the observation of the Minister that this practice of certain members of co-operative societies having to go... did irreparable damage to the co-operative movement. I wonder has the Agricultural Credit
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-19/24/
19 Jul 1934 - of all, the Bill aims at giving co-operative societies the right to guarantee advances by giving over... co-operative societies the right to issue debentures and to give them that right retrospectively.... From 1928 onwards a certain number of co-operative societies wanted cash, and they went to the Credit... to such societies that cannot be recovered now?" He went on to say: "The Bill might be a way... Mr. Aiken Deputy Belton said: "I wonder has the Agricultural Credit Corporation made advances
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-18/31/
18 Jul 1934 - problem is. He said that as the law now stands co-operative societies only raise money by a bill of sale... Mr. Belton We are not going to oppose this Bill. The Minister, at the conclusion of his remarks..., said the Bill is necessary to solve an immediate problem. He did not say what that immediate... and, of course, that damages credit. The Minister has in the Bill the bodies to whom those... debentures would be offered. Of course it is a case of offering debentures in all cases to Government institutions or departments.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1978-02-08/3/
8 Feb 1978 - Mr. MacSharry The 1934 Act relates to the issue of debentures by agricultural co-operative... societies. Under section 5 such societies require the prior consent of the Minister for Agriculture... of the society offering a debenture in order to check on their credit-worthiness. ... to the issue of debentures. It is proposed to dispense with this requirement and it will no longer... be necessary to have his consent. The intervention of the Minister for Agriculture is no longer
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1978-02-08/3/
8 Feb 1978 - of the Agricultural Co-operative Societies (Debentures) Act, 1934, to add "and ‘capital sum of'" after "and with such consent of the Minister as is mentioned in this Act".
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-19/24/
19 Jul 1934 - Mr. McMenamin Is this an agricultural society or a co-operative society?
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-22/11/
22 Aug 1934 - . There are two matters dealt with in this Bill. The position in some co-operative societies.... First as regards debentures. These co-operative societies cannot give debentures. The result... Societies. The Agricultural Co-operative Society is more or less correctly defined in sub-section (4... that it is an agricultural co-operative society under this Act. Once certified that it is so, then that society may go... we are only taking powers to watch very closely agricultural co-operative societies
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-29/4/
29 Aug 1934 - co-operative societies. Under the Bill as proposed, such eligible lender must have the approval... of this Bill I raised the question of whether an individual should be eligible to obtain a debenture over... the whole principle of co-operation. It would be against the principle of co-operation to allow... way, any debenture in favour of an individual must be approved in the ordinary way under the rules... to an individual obtaining a debenture, even under those safeguards. I have not got his exact words
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-18/31/
18 Jul 1934 - debentures on the uncalled capital of an agricultural co-operative society? Some of those societies are 30... Mr. McMenamin I also wish to query the finance of this Bill. I do not understand its meaning.... That is the meaning of the Bill. That is what is behind this Bill. Let us not go out of this House to-night... as a result of the bad management, incompetence and blundering of societies, and it is sought to impose that liability on the community. I object to that.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-09-12/4/
12 Sep 1934 - of debentures shall not be made by an agricultural co-operative society under this section unless either... the committee of such society has power under the rules of such society to borrow money and the amount... to be borrowed on the security of such debentures is within such borrowing power or a resolution... of such society convened expressly for the purpose of considering and, if thought fit, passing such resolution.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-18/31/
18 Jul 1934 - of agricultural co-operative societies in the country a weapon whereby far more injury than benefits... in Section 4 of this Bill, and for this reason that the committees of management of rural co-operative... issue. If the manager of a co-operative society approaches the committee and tells them...-operative society has borrowed some money from the Agricultural Credit Corporation and is unable to meet... societies of the kind referred to here are not familiar at all with the principle underlying debenture
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-05/10/
5 Jul 1934 - Leave granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to empower certain societies registered under... the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893, to issue debentures, and to borrow money... on the security of their uncalled capital, and for other purposes connected with the matters aforesaid.— (Minister for Agriculture, Dr. Ryan).
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-19/24/
19 Jul 1934 - Mr. Aiken Between £4,000 and £5,000—that is to co-operative societies with the understanding... that when this Bill becomes law they will give the Agricultural Credit Corporation the first charge on the uncalled capital.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-19/24/
19 Jul 1934 - Mr. Aiken They are agricultural co-operative societies. I think what I have said should do away... Corporation and the co-operative societies who have got money from them. I will deal now with some... transaction. This Bill aims at giving legal sanction to what was an honourable understanding, and, I... would say to what was a legal binding contract in the ordinary way between the Agricultural Credit... of the other points that were made. Deputy Dillon said that this Bill might involve the unfortunate shareholders in a liability they never meant to undertake.
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-09-12/4/
12 Sep 1934 - that the committee of a co-operative society might issue debentures without having authority from the members... of the society to borrow money. As the amendment stands—and, in fact, as I am advised—no committee... could issue debentures unless they had powers to borrow. If they had powers to borrow, then it would... be all right; but if they have no powers to borrow, then they must go to the society.
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-09-05/3/
5 Sep 1934 - as follows:— (2) An issue of debentures shall not be made by an agricultural co-operative society under... Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan) I am proposing to change the wording of the Senator's... this section unless either the committee of such society has power under the rules of such society... to borrow money and the amount to be borrowed on the security of such debentures is within... of the shareholders of such society convened expressly for the purpose of considering
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-22/11/
22 Aug 1934 - to accept the newly created debentures? Would a society for the curing of bacon say, be included in the category of agricultural societies? ... for the distribution of the debentures of a society rather than having the responsibility put on a few men. I have... Mr. Dillon I desire to give my support to that part of the Bill which provides... I would like to have information from the Minister. Will the Minister say if a society can create... debentures to pay off an old outstanding debt, and whether this measure can be applied
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-19/24/
19 Jul 1934 - Mr. Aiken That is an extract from an agreement between a co-operative society and the Agricultural Credit Corporation.
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-29/4/
29 Aug 1934 - it. With regard to these co-operative societies, I would like to know if the position is this: that two... or three recalcitrant members are in a position to be able to hold up the issue of debentures? I... this Bill as it stands and as the Minister wants us to do, might not a majority of the shareholders who... were opposed to the issuing of these debentures feel very strongly against us for enabling
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-22/11/
22 Aug 1934 - the co-operative movement for 25 years and who know the pitfalls and difficulties of co-operation... want to make it clear that it was more the wish of the co-operative movement itself than...-operative societies. If we were to allow an individual to take over the affairs of a creamery and so... and, perhaps, the weaknesses of the societies at times, have asked me to put somebody in charge... of this. As a matter of fact, they are keen that the Minister for Agriculture should do it because
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-29/4/
29 Aug 1934 - and Provident Societies shall not register any alteration of the rules of an agricultural co-operative society... which, in his opinion, effects any change of or variation in the objects of such society, unless such alteration has been approved of in writing by the Minister.
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-22/11/
22 Aug 1934 - no substantial difference to the principle where the ostensible object of the Bill is to give co-operative... societies power to raise debentures without the embarrassment of such debentures becoming a bill of sale... be possible by a simple Act to remove that stigma and to give co-operative societies powers... that they are creditors, secured or unsecured. In the case of co-operative societies, they are generally... of these co-operative societies, and he sees no objection whatever to having an individual, same
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-29/4/
29 Aug 1934 - :— No issue of debentures shall be made by an agricultural co-operative society under this section unless...-section as follows:— (6) No issue of debentures shall be made by an agricultural co-operative... with the issue of debentures by the societies. In the Bill as it originally came before the Dáil... whether or not the societies should issue these debentures, I think the Bill is a very dangerous... society under this section unless and until a resolution approving the issue of such debentures shall have
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-29/4/
29 Aug 1934 - for power to the society to issue debentures. He would not have given these powers, because... of this Bill. On the other hand, if a society has given its committee power to borrow... Dr. Ryan No. I was wrong in that. The reason why the words "whether the issue of debentures... is or is not authorised or is or is not forbidden by the rules of such society" are used is that when... serious as they appear. A society may or may not give power to its committee to borrow. Some societies
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-29/4/
29 Aug 1934 - . On the other hand, some of the societies which have asked for this Bill are in rather a precarious position...—the societies are quite solvent, if they get the chance to issue debentures. If they do not get... I say, then we can deal with this question of debentures solely. The position... is that the amendment proposed by Senator Jameson would only be necessary where a society has given power to its... that there are such cases. If this Bill goes through, as drafted, these committees will be able to issue
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-29/4/
29 Aug 1934 - by shareholders in the case of a society whose rules forbid the issue of debentures by the committee... in with a Bill to deal with such a case, at any rate where the rules forbid a society from issuing... by the Senator. The section reads "whether the issue of debentures is or is not authorised... or is or is not forbidden by the rules of such society..." That means that there was agreement entered into between... the members or shareholders and the society concerned. If we pass this section as it stands, or even
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Debate: Dáil Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1934-07-19/24/
19 Jul 1934 - Mr. Aiken A co-operative society.
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-22/11/
22 Aug 1934 - Dr. Ryan The point I want to make is that in the drafting of the main Co-operative Bill we have... been in consultation with various advisers, if you like to call them that, of the co-operative... movement. We have consulted many times with those who have been in charge of the co-operative movement... sanction or to refuse sanction to these societies for the issuing of these debentures.... They are anxious that somebody should do it. As I say, when I was bringing in this temporary Bill I asked
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Debate: Seanad Éireann
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1934-08-22/11/
22 Aug 1934 - done which, if it were being done to other businesses than agricultural co-operative societies, would... suppose, of this co-operative society will have power to do a thing which according to the articles.... This Bill enables the society to issue debentures and to give an outside lender a right of action..., or is or is not forbidden by the rules of the society, these debentures can be issued now when... and articles of association of the company or, as in this case, the society. This Bill goes
