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Wednesday, 19 Oct 2022

Díolúintí i leith Staidéar na Gaeilge sa Mheánscolaíocht: Plé (Atógáil)

Is é an t-aon leithscéal atá faighte agam ná ceann ón Teachta Connolly. Dúirt sí go mbuailfeadh sí isteach dá mbeadh seans in aon chor aici. Tá sí níos gnóthaí anois toisc an Ceann Comhairle a bheith as láthair faoi láthair. Is mian liom fáilte a fhearadh roimh chomhaltaí an chomhchoiste, roimh aon chomhalta eile a thagann isteach, roimh na finnéithe atá chun labhairt os ár gcomhair agus roimh ár lucht féachana ar theilifís an Oireachtais. Fáiltím roimh na hionadaithe ó Chumann Náisiúnta Príomhoidí agus Príomhoidí Tánaisteacha, is iad sin, Paul Crone, stiúrthóir agus Paul Byrne, leas-stiúrthóir. Gabhaim buíochas libh beirt as bheith anseo inniu agus an t-ábhar tábhachtach seo á phlé againn, is é sin, córas na ndíolúintí i leith staidéar na Gaeilge sa mheánscolaíocht.

Bhí sé ar intinn againn plé níos iomláine a bheith againn ar an ábhar seo inniu agus, chuige sin, sheolamar cuireadh chuig an gCumann Náisiúnta Príomhoidí agus Príomhoidí Tánaisteacha, an Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta, an Chomhairle Náisiúnta um Oideachas Speisialta, agus an tSeirbhís Náisiúnta Síceolaíochta Oideachais, NEPS, de chuid na Roinne Oideachais ar an 23 Meán Fómhair. Tar éis a bheith anonn agus anall idir an cléireach agus an Chomhairle Náisiúnta um Oideachas Speisialta, chuir an chomhairle in iúl don chléireach nach raibh sí in ann freastal ar an gcruinniú inniu toisc nach raibh sí ullamh ach rinne sí a athdhearbhú go mbeadh sí sásta freastal ar chruinniú na seachtaine seo chugainn nó aon am a n-ainmneodh an coiste amach anseo.

Ar an 3 Deireadh Fómhair 2022, sheol an Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta freagra ar ais chugainn inar thug sí cur síos ar an obair atá á déanamh aici. Cé nach ndúradh go díreach sa chomhfhreagras sin nach mbeadh an chomhairle toilteanach teacht os comhair an chomhchoiste agus an t-ábhar seo á phlé, tugadh leid gur amhlaidh a bhí ann. Guíodh sa chomhfhreagras sin gach rath ar obair an chomhchoiste sa ghnó seo agus ar na heagraíochtaí eile a bheith i láthair.

Mar thoradh ar an mhíshoiléireacht sin, dhírigh mé ar an gcléireach glaoch ar an gcomhairle agus soiléiriú a fháil uaithi cé acu an mbeadh sí anseo nó nach mbeadh. Cuireadh in iúl don chomhchoiste go raibh an Roinn Oideachais tar éis iarraidh ar an gComhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta gan teacht os comhair an chomhchoiste. Ní raibh an chomhairle toilteanach teacht os ár gcomhair inniu dá bharr.

Seoladh cuireadh teacht os ár gcomhair chuig an tSeirbhís Náisiúnta Síceolaíochta Oideachais de chuid na Roinne Oideachais. Ní bhfuarthas freagra uaithi go dtí tráthnóna inné, tar éis 4 p.m., níos lú ná 24 uair an chloig roimh an gcruinniú seo, nuair a sheol rúnaí príobháideach an Aire Oideachais comhfhreagras chuig an gcléireach ina dúradh nach mbeadh an tSeirbhís Náisiúnta Síceolaíochta Oideachais de chuid na Roinne Oideachais ag teacht os comhair an chruinnithe inniu. Dúradh sa chomhfhreagras sin gur rannóg den Roinn Oideachais í NEPS agus dá bharr sin go mbeidh NEPS mar chuid den toscaireacht ag an Aire nuair a bheidh sí ag freastal ar chruinniú an chomhchoiste na seachtaine seo chugainn. Tá súil ag an Roinn go bhfuil sé sin in ord. Is é sin atá ráite sa nóta uaithi.

Níl mé sásta leis sin. Níl sé in ord go bhfuil an chuma ar an scéal go bhfuil an Roinn Oideachais tar éis iarracht a dhéanamh bac a chur ar bhreathnú an chomhchoiste seo ar an ábhar tábhachtach seo. Cén fáth gur iarr an Roinn Oideachais ar an gComhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta agus ar an tSeirbhís Náisiúnta Síceolaíochta Oideachais gan bheith os ár gcomhair? Mar atá a fhios ag gach duine, tá sé deacair go leor ár n-obair a dhéanamh agus is obair thábhachtach atá le déanamh againn. Tá sé deacair go leor, nuair atá oifigigh os ár gcomhair, teacht ar an eolas uathu, ach nuair atá siad os ár gcomhair i dteannta, bíonn sé i bhfad oiread níos deacra. Bíonn bealaí difriúla ag státseirbhísigh shinsearacha le déileáil linn a bhíonn in ainm faisnéis theicniúil nó shonrach a thabhairt. Bíonn sé sin go minic níos deacra.

Is é an fáth a ndearnamar an cinneadh na cuirí a chur amach san ord inar chuireamar amach iad ionas go mbeadh an tAire ag teacht os ár gcomhair agus go mbeadh sise ag freagairt cheisteanna straitéise nó beartais an Rialtais agus ceisteanna straitéise na Roinne ach go háirithe, seachas na ceisteanna teicniúla nó sonracha a rabhamar ag iarraidh tabhairt fúthu roimh theacht an Aire.

Tá an chuma ar an scéal nach bhfuil an Roinn Oideachais sásta deis a thabhairt do na páirtithe leasmhara sin a dtuairimí ar na rialacha sin a leagan faoi bhráid an chomhchoiste. Ní mó ná sásta atáim agus bhí mé le ceangal níos luaithe. Níl sé faoin Roinn sceideal chruinnithe an choiste a eagrú ná cé a thagann os ár gcomhair a roghnú. Níl mé sásta leis an tslí a ndearna an Roinn Oideachais iarracht beagnach stad iomlán a chur leis an gcruinniú inniu. Cén fáth nár labhair sí linn nó leis an gcléireach ar dtús báire? Táimid i gcónaí oscailte ar athrú a dhéanamh ar an sceideal atá againn nó iarracht a dhéanamh athruithe a dhéanamh a réiteodh leo siúd a bhfuil cuireadh tugtha dóibh. Níl sé maith go leor go bhfuaireamar diúltú gairid i roinnt de na cásanna seo.

Ba chóir dúinn scríobh chuig an Aire Oideachais agus chuig an Ard-Rúnaí le léiriú cé chomh míshásta agus atáimid faoi na cinntí sin. B'fhéidir gur chóir don chomhchoiste cruinniú gairid príobháideach a bheith againn níos déanaí inniu nó amárach chun féachaint go díreach conas mar a chaithfimid leis an gcruinniú an tseachtain seo chugainn chun déanamh cinnte de nach bhfuilimid ag déanamh neamhairde de na cinntí a ghlacamar roimhe seo.

Sin deireadh mo ghearán ag tús an chruinnithe. An aontaítear leis an gcinneadh gur cheart dúinn scríobh chuig an Aire agus chuig an Ard-Rúnaí? Aontaítear. Déanfar sin níos déanaí inniu, agus tiocfaidh mé ar ais chuig na baill faoi chruinniú príobháideach gairid chun déileáil leis seo.

Leis sin ar fad ráite, ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leo siúd atá os ár gcomhair, an bheirt Paul, chun plé a dhéanamh ar an ábhar ríthábhachtach seo - córas na ndíolúintí i leith staidéir na Gaeilge sa mheánscolaíocht. Táimid buíoch de Paul Crone agus Paul Byrne atá anseo thar ceann Chumann Náisiúnta Príomhoidí agus Príomhoidí Tánaisteacha. Is mian liom a chur ar an taifead go bhfuil an bheirt acu ag freastal ar an gcruinniú ó phurláin lasmuigh de Thithe an Oireachtais. Dá réir sin, caithfidh mé na rialacha seo a leanas a chur in iúl ní amháin do na finnéithe ach do na comhlachtaí chomh maith.

Meabhraím do chomhaltaí, d’fhinnéithe agus do bhaill fhoirne a chinntiú go bhfuil a ngutháin shoghluaiste múchta le linn an chruinnithe mar gur féidir leis na gléasanna sin cur as do chóras craolacháin, eagarthóireachta agus fuaime Thithe an Oireachtais. Tá an rogha ag comhaltaí freastal ar an gcruinniú go fisiciúil sa seomra coiste nó go fíorúil ar Microsoft Teams, mar atá déanta ag roinnt de na comhaltaí faoi láthair. Is óna n-oifigí i dTithe an Oireachtais a dhéantar sin de bharr riachtanais bhunreachtúla. Meabhraím dóibh a chinntiú go bhfuil a micreafóin múchta nuair nach bhfuil siad ag labhairt.

Cuirim ar aird na bhfinnéithe go bhfuil siad, de bhua Bhunreacht na hÉireann agus reachtaíochta araon, faoi chosaint ag lánphribhléid maidir leis an bhfianaise a thugann siad don chomhchoiste chomh fada agus atá siad lonnaithe laistigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais agus an fhianaise sin á tabhairt acu. Ní féidir le finnéithe brath ar an gcosaint sin agus an fhianaise á tabhairt acu ó thaobh amuigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais. Molaim d’fhinnéithe a bheith cúramach agus fianaise á tabhairt acu. Má ordaíonn an comhchoiste dóibh éirí as an bhfianaise sin, ba chóir dóibh déanamh amhlaidh láithreach. Ordaítear dóibh gan aon fhianaise a thabhairt nach fianaise í a bhaineann le hábhar na n-imeachtaí atá á bplé ag an gcomhchoiste. Ba chóir dóibh a bheith ar an eolas go ndéanfar na ráitis tosaigh a chuireann siad faoi bhráid an chomhchoiste a fhoilsiú ar shuíomh gréasáin an chomhchoiste tar éis an chruinnithe seo.

Fiafraítear d’fhinnéithe agus do chomhaltaí araon cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú nár chóir, más féidir, daoine nó eintiteas a cháineadh ná líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainmneacha nó ar shlí a bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, fiafraítear dóibh gan aon rud a rá a d’fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfadh a ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó eintiteas aitheanta, ordófar do na finnéithe éirí as na ráitis sin láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfidh siad leis an ordú sin má thugtar é.

Anois, déanfaimid breathnú ar ábhar an chruinnithe seo. Iarraim ar an stiúrthóir, Paul Crone, tús a chur lena chur i láthair.

Mr. Paul Crone

Tá lúcháir orm a bheith anseo inniu chun labhairt faoi dhíolúintí na Gaeilge. Caithfidh mé mo leithscéal a ghabháil leis an gcoiste nach leor an leibhéal líofachta atá agam sa Ghaeilge chun an cur i láthair seo a thabhairt agus go gcaithfidh mé athrú go Béarla anois. I thank the Chairperson and members of the committee for the invitation to present here today. I am the director of the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD, which is the professional association for post-primary school leaders in Ireland and provides a united voice for principals and deputy principals on issues of common concern across all three post-primary sectors.

Circular 0053/2019 put in place new procedures for granting exemptions from the study of Irish, thereby placing the responsibility for granting exemptions on principals. Circular 0055/2022 reinforced the 2019 decision that principals make the decision and put in place an appeals mechanism for parents. I will speak from a practical perspective to identify how these changes have impacted on current practices and on principals, as well as to outline some of the challenges facing schools as they endeavour to navigate the Irish exemptions procedures. I must stress at the outset that each school leader puts the best interests of the student at the centre of every decision that is made.

Traditionally, many students arrived at post-primary school with an Irish exemption certificate, the application process for which was completed in primary school. In the small number of cases where that did not happen in primary school, the post-primary school processed the paperwork to apply for the exemption from the study of Irish. This was generally done by the special education needs co-ordinator or guidance counsellor in the school and overseen by the principal, who signed off on the application on the basis of the information provided. The application would then have been forwarded to Department of Education for a decision to be made.

In recent times, since 2019, students have been arriving at post-primary school without the completed paperwork regarding their Irish exemption and may, or may not, have participated in the study of Irish in their primary school. What tends to happen now in such cases is that the request for an exemption from the study of Irish is made to the post-primary school principal when the student arrives in first year or when he or she approaches the preparations for the State exams. This is, of course, in line with the requirements of the circular, but it has resulted in a significant increase in applications to principals by parents seeking an exemption from the study of Irish for their child.

Before 2019, principals did not directly undertake the work regarding exemptions from the study of Irish but were kept informed by the staff in their school, and they had oversight of the process and the information. The current procedures have created a huge administrative workload for principals that cannot be delegated to other staff under the terms of the circular. This requires a significant investment of time by principals in order to process applications and any subsequent appeals that are made.

Since 2019, the significant increase in the number of applications by parents for exemptions from the study of Irish has had a significant negative impact on the administrative workload of principals. While the criteria outlined in the circular for an exemption are clear and require evidence, many principals are reporting that some parents are very insistent, even if the evidence is insufficient to receive an exemption from the study of Irish for their child. This discussion, explanation and negotiation with the parent requires considerable time and energy on the part of principals when, it could be argued, this time and energy could be better spent elsewhere.

Irish is a core subject, which is why it requires an official exemption process. No similar process is required for modern foreign languages, MFLs, as they are not compulsory subjects. Many students choose MFL subjects as they are a matriculation requirement for some third level courses. Indeed, an MFL is a requirement, along with Irish, for the leaving certificate vocational programme, LCVP. School leaders inform us that a number of students who are exempt from the study of Irish continue with the study of MFLs for varying reasons.

The status of Irish in our current system requires careful consideration to ensure the protection of the intended impact of this core subject. When a student is exempted from the study of Irish, very often they will avail of learning support during the time the other students are studying Irish. However, in an increasing number of cases, students and their parent may look to substitute another subject in place of Irish in line with the terms of the circular. This causes a particular difficulty for schools as they do not receive the allocation of additional teachers to provide this option for students. Therefore, schools are left trying to accommodate students from within existing allocation resources. In addition, when schools schedule Irish classes concurrently on the timetable to group students who are exempt from the study of Irish together, in order to maximise efficiencies in teacher allocation, this can cause significant difficulties when trying to fit everything into the timetable. It can often be disruptive to the scheduling of other subjects on the timetable.

This is just a flavour of the issues arising as schools endeavour to implement the procedures around Irish exemptions. I thank committee members for listening. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to remain in the meeting as we are opening our national conference at 2 p.m. today in Galway at which my presence is required.

The deputy director, Paul Byrne, is very experienced and will be available and happy to answer any questions the committee may have. Go raibh míle maith ag an gcomhchoiste.

Gabhaim buíochas le Paul Crone. Go n-éirí an t ádh leis agus leis na príomhoidí eile ag an gcomhdháil inniu. Tá súil agam go mbeidh siad ag plé an t-ábhar seo ann chomh maith céanna.

Mr. Paul Crone

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach.

Anois tá deis ag comhaltaí ceisteanna a chur, ar líne nó anseo, má tá ceisteanna acu. Tá Paul Byrne ag fanacht linn chun aon cheist atá acu a fhreagairt. Is léir go bhfuil na comhaltaí ar fad sásta go dtí seo. Is féidir liom tús a chur leis an díospóireacht agus ceist a chur anseo. Cé mhéad ama a thógann sé ar an bpríomhoide chun iarratas ar dhíolúintí a phróiseáil nuair a thagann litir isteach ó dhalta, nó ó a thuismitheoirí nó a tuismitheoirí?

Mr. Paul Byrne

Níl mo leibhéal Gaeilge mar a bhí sé fadó ach déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall ceisteanna an choiste a fhreagairt trí Ghaeilge. Mura bhfuilim cinnte faoin gceist, iarrfaidh mé ar an gcoiste an cheist a chur arís i mBéarla, le toil an choiste agus gabhaim buíochas as sin. An féidir leis leis an gCathaoirleach an cheist sin a chur arís, lena thoil?

Má thagaim isteach mar thuismitheoir, agus má iarraim ar an bpríomhoide díolúine a thabhairt do mo mhac nó do m’iníon, cé mhéad ama a thógann sé ón am a líontar an fhoirm don phróiseas féin ó thús báire go deireadh? An gá leis an bpríomhoide agallamh a chur ar an bpáiste, bualadh le múinteoirí, agus bualadh lena thuismitheoirí nó lena tuismitheoirí? Mar a dúirt an cumann ina chur i láthair: “This requires a significant investment [from the principals] of time ... to process the application and any subsequent appeal that is made.” Cé mhéad ama atá i gceist i ngach ceann de na hiarratais sin?

Mr. Paul Byrne

An féidir liom an cheist a fhreagairt i mBéarla?

Is féidir, níl fadhb ar bith leis sin.

Mr. Paul Byrne

In 2019, responsibility for granting exemptions from Irish moved from the Department to school principals. The 2022 circular has added new clauses to that. The Chair has asked how long such an application process will take. When a parent makes a request for an Irish-language exemption, it must be put in writing. The principal must then have a meeting with the parents, and must then meet with each of the teachers in the school, if the request is on the basis that the child has additional or persistent learning difficulties. The principal must satisfy himself or herself that, first, all possible interventions to improve the child’s learning have been put in place and have not been sufficient to bring the child’s level of understanding, comprehension or literacy up to a point where they are able to continue with the study of Irish.

Irish-language exemptions are only granted in line with what is in the circular. The difficulty is that it is easy to grant an exemption, but it is when it is not granted to parents that an issue arises. I have been in that position in the past. The big change happened in 2019 because before that, one was expected to get a psychological or educational report which was sent into the Department, along with other documentation, and the decision was then made there. Now, the onus is on the principal to ensure that every effort has been made to keep the child, firstly, studying Irish and to give the child whatever support is needed. If, then, it is in the best interests of the child - and that is where the decisions are made - then the principal communicates to the parents that the díolúine is to be granted.

If on the other hand, however, it is not granted, the principal has to inform the parents of that, and also inform them of the appeals process, which is now very firmly in place in the 2022 circular. I hope that has answered the question or that I have answered the right question.

Go raibh maith agat. Ba í sin mo cheist. Tá ceist anois ag an Teachta Ó Muineacháin.

Baineann mo cheist le an-chuid den cheist a bhí ag an gCathaoirleach féin chomh maith. Luadh sa chur i láthair go mbíonn an-chuid anonn is anall nuair a bhíonn an t-iarratas á phlé agus is soiléir go mbíonn roinnt mhaith ama caite leis. An mbíonn an t-am agus an iarracht bainteach leis an bplé, nó le bailiú an eolais agus an plé ar an iarratas féin, nó an mbíonn roinnt mhaith ama caite ina dhiaidh sin nuair nach mbíonn an príomhoide sásta díolúine a cheadú agus maidir leis an idirghabháil a bhíonn ar siúl ansin, agus, b'fhéidir, leis an mbrú a bhíonn ag teacht ó na tuismitheoirí ag lorg an díolúine agus an negotiation ansin? An mbíonn mórán ama caite leis sin?

An mbíonn puinn díobh diúltaithe nó an bhfuil aon eolas á bhailiú mar gheall air sin? An mbíonn toradh 100% ann go gceadófaí díolúine tar éis tréimhse ama éigin? An gcoimeádann na príomhoidí aon eolas ar an líon a bhíonn ceadaithe nó diúltaithe?

Mr. Paul Byrne

An féidir leis an Teachta an cheist sin a chur arís? Chaill mé an cheist ansin.

Baineann an cheist seo leis an chuid ama a chaitear leis an bpróiseas seo. An mbíonn an-chuid den am bainteach leis an bplé anonn is anall ag bailiú eolais, nó an mbíonn an t-am agus an iarracht bainteach leis an bplé leis an tuismitheoir agus leis an diúltú? Cá háit a bhfuil an t-am á chaitheamh leis seo mar shamhlóinn go mbeadh daoine faoi leith ann agus bheadh sé soiléir go mbeadh díolúine oiriúnach, ach chaithfí fós obair faoi leith a dhéanamh chun é sin a chinntiú? Má tá cinn nach bhfuil an príomhoide sásta leo, cá bhfuil an príomhoide ag caitheamh an t-am leo siúd?

Sa dara cuid, an gcoimeádtar eolas ar iarratais a bhíonn diúltaithe nó an bhfuil 100% de dhaoine ag fáil díolúine tar éis tréimhse ama éigin?

Mr. Paul Byrne

Caitheann an príomhoide an-chuid ama ag dul timpeall agus ag lorg na páipéir sa scoil ó na múinteoirí maidir leis an tslí a fhoghlaimíonn na daltaí atá i gceist. Chomh maith leis sin, bíonn níos mó ná ceann amháin nó dhá chruinniú leis na tuismitheoirí. Bíonn sé an-deacair, mar sin, nuair a thagann tuismitheoir isteach agus díolúine á iarraidh aige nó aici chun a rá leis nó léi nach bhfuil an príomhoide ábalta an cead fáil réidh leis an nGaeilge a thabhairt. Maidir leis an am a chaitheann an príomhoide ag féachaint ar na páipéir agus ar an tslí a fhoghlaimíonn dalta; tá níos mó baint ag tuismitheoirí anois maidir le hoideachas a bpáistí agus tá guth na dtuismitheoirí agus na ndaltaí i bhfad níos airde an tráth seo dá réir.

An mbeadh, cuir i gcás, uair an chloig amháin á caitheamh leis na múinteoirí ag bailiú an eolais seo, nó an mbíonn dhá nó 20 uair an chloig caite leis na tuismitheoirí níos déanaí ag plé anonn is anall?

Mr. Paul Byrne

It depends on the parents and the reasons they are looking for the díolúintí.

Some of them are clear-cut and others would be under section 2.2.3 of the new circular, where you have to look at continuing difficulties with learning for the student. That information has to be collected by the principal and it needs to be assessed. You are talking about having a meeting with the special educational needs co-ordinator and some of the teachers. You will be having a meeting with the career guidance counsellor as well. Putting all of that information together, you need to ask if it is a justifiable application and if it is in the best interests of the pupil to grant the cead amach as an nGaeilge. Time is scarce in schools. There would probably be a number of meeting with the parents, you will meet the student and you will meet the teachers. I am not sure if you could say how much time it takes it but if there are a number of those meetings that have to be done it takes up a considerable amount of time.

Tá sé soiléir go bhfuil ualach mór ar an scoil agus ar an bpríomhoide. An mbíonn an toradh céanna ar gach iarratas? An mbeidh 100% d'iarratais ceadaithe tar éis am éigin nó an bhfuil iarratais ann a bhíonn diúltaithe? An gcoimeádann an scoil track ar na hiarratais a bhíonn diúltaithe?

Mr. Paul Byrne

All of the granted díolúintí have to be recorded on the primary online database system so there is a good track on them there. I have numbers in front of me for the applications that have been made and I know they have risen. In anticipation of coming here I was looking at why the numbers are rising. I determined that the numbers are rising in post-primary schools. Between 2021 and 2022 there have been an extra 12,500 students in the schools and as those numbers go up there will be more applications for the díolúintí ón nGaeilge.

An mbíonn 100% d'iarratais ceadaithe nó an bhfuil aon chlárú ar chinn atá diúltaithe?

Mr. Paul Byrne

An féidir leis an Teachta-----

Do 100% of applications made result in the granting of an exemption? Are there figures collated on refusals?

Mr. Paul Byrne

There are and I have them somewhere. The bulk of them are genuine applications and they are granted. I am looking at some of them in front of me but some are refused as well. You are not as afraid to refuse an application now because there is an appeals procedure which the parents can enter into. By and large, if the parents are looking for a díolúine there is a genuine reason for it. One of the other things I was looking at is why there seems to have been more applications since 2019. Pre-2019 you had to have a letter from an educational psychologist and that was posing a barrier for a number of the students who needed to get a díolúine. That barrier is gone and so you have more parents making applications.

Teastaíonn fiosrú mar gheall ar na appeals níos déanaí.

Leanfaidh mise ar an téama sin. An bhfuil ról ag an dalta féin sa phróiseas seo? An gcuirtear ceist ar an dalta? An dtagann siad os comhair leis na tuismitheoirí, leis na múinteoirí Gaeilge, le síceolaithe nó le aon duine mar sin?

Mr. Paul Byrne

Generally you try to have a good conversation with the student and the parent and you try to do your best to see if you can possibly keep them learning Irish for as long as possible. The students are tested on their literacy and spelling comprehension, etc. If they are below the tenth percentile you grant the díolúine. By and large you try to encourage the students to stay in Irish. Some schools put it on their websites that only in exceptional circumstances will any exemption from Irish be granted. That sends out a good message.

Dá mbeadh mise ag déanamh teiste agus dá mbeadh mise ag lorg díolúine, bheadh mé cinnte an teist sin a theipeadh más ar thoradh na teiste ar litríocht a gheobhainn an díolúine atá uaim. Tuigim go bhfuil na príomhoidí gafa agus gur sin an córas atá acu ach ó mo thaobh de tá sé beagáinín seafóideach go mbeadh a fhios ag an dalta-----

Mr. Paul Byrne

It is not one test. This is where you test a child on their reading comprehension and that. You put a plan in place to try to improve their ability in those areas and then you test again to see if that has worked. It is not just a case of doing one test, failing the test and then saying you need an exemption from Irish. It is over a period of time that the child is tested. Sometimes that testing will have been done in the primary school before they come in and they may not have had the exemption granted. They do not come in without having a record of having a difficulty in learning.

An t-eolas a tugadh domsa ná an chuid is mó de na daltaí a fhaigheann díolúintí is sa chéad bhliain a fhaigheann siad iad.

Mr. Paul Byrne

I ask the Chairman to repeat that last question.

An t-eolas atá agam ná gur sa chéad bhliain a fhaigheann na páistí sna meánscoileanna na díolúintí. Is ansin a fhaigheann siad na díolúintí den chuid is mó. Ansin níl an t-am ann chun cinntí eile a dhéanamh chun cuidiú leo nó chun féachaint an bhfuil aon athrú. Dá mbeadh siad ag fáil na díolúintí sa tríú bliain nó sa cheathrú bliain, bheadh sé soiléir don scoil go raibh fadhb bunúsach acu. Má tá siad á fáil sa chéad bhliain, bheadh mise buartha go raibh siad á fáil go ró-éasca.

Mr. Paul Byrne

If it were applied for in first year, you would have to liaise with the primary school to see whether there was a significant difficulty in the student's learning previously. Principals would go back and see if an education plan was in place for the student, how he or she responded to the interventions and if it resulted in an improvement. They would hopefully look back over two years to make sure it was a genuine application.

Tógann sé sin níos mó ama ó thaobh an phríomhoide ag dul ar ais go dtí na bunscoileanna.

Mr. Paul Byrne

Yes.

An mbíonn puinn plé ag na príomhoidí leis na hachomhairc?

Mr. Paul Byrne

When a decision not to grant an exemption is made, a form is given to the parents to fill out. All the information that was gathered in making that decision must be made available to the Irish exemptions appeals committee, so there is work involved in that as well.

An mbíonn aon eolas nua á bhailiú acusan i gcomhair an achomhairc nó an dtagann siad ar ais chuig an bpríomhoide ag lorg breis eolas ar aon rud faoi leith?

Mr. Paul Byrne

Abair arís é.

Cén t-eolas a úsáideann siadsan chun an cinneadh a dhéanamh? An mbíonn an coiste ag lorg breis eolais ón scoil ar aon ábhar faoi leith?

Mr. Paul Byrne

The appeals committee will have access to all the information used by the school in making the decision not to grant an exemption.

Mr. Paul Byrne

Once the decision is made, be it to uphold the school’s decision or grant the exemption, it comes back to the school and the school communicates that to the parent.

Cad é líon na n-iarratas a théann chuig an gcoiste achomhairc?

Níl a fhios agam. Measaim gur luadh é i gceann de chruinnithe an chomhchoiste roimhe seo.

Tá dhá cheist eile agamsa. An chéad cheist ná, an ait leis na príomhoidí go mbíonn breis is 13% de na daltaí ag tabhairt faoi staidéar sa Bhéarla agus modern foreign language seachas an Ghaeilge? San iomlán, tá breis is 20% de dhaltaí ag fáil díolúine, a bhfuil níos mó ná 60% acu ag déanamh staidéir ar theanga eile. An ait libh go bhfuil figiúr na ndaltaí - 67% measaim - atá ag déanamh staidéir ar theanga seachas an Ghaeilge chomh hard sin? An bhfuil sibh buartha faoi sin mar phríomhoidí?

Mr. Paul Byrne

Sometimes it surprises me that when students get an exemption from Irish they continue to study a modern foreign language but, in many cases, it is because they need the language for entrance purposes to third level. In my experience, when students got an exemption from Irish, they also wanted an exemption from the modern foreign language unless it was really required. I do not have figures on that.

Baineann mo cheist deiridh leis an ualach breise atá curtha ar phríomhoidí. Cad é an rud ab fhearr leis na príomhoidí a tharlódh nó cén t-athrú atá á lorg ag príomhoidí maidir leis an gcóras seo?

Mr. Paul Byrne

We are looking for more administration support. Irish exemptions are just one part of an increasing workload that has been exacerbated by Covid. There is an awful lot more to deal with in the support of students. We in schools are still feeling the effects of the loss of learning that happened during the Covid pandemic.

The level of administrative work has been increasing the whole time. We are looking for more administration support to help us do what people go into principalship for, which is to lead the learning in schools and to develop the capacity of all the students and teachers. If principals are snowed under with administrative work, it leaves less time to do the core work.

Maidir le tacaíochtaí breise chun cuidiú le múineadh na Gaeilge, sula ndéantar cinneadh ar iarratas díolúine, an bhfuil na príomhoidí in ann a rá go bhfuil méid áirithe breise, uair an chloig nó a leithéid, ag teastáil uathu chun cuidiú le dalta fanacht leis an nGaeilge mar ábhar scrúdaithe?

Mr. Paul Byrne

From my experience of meeting with students and parents who were looking for an exemption from Irish, I would try to steer them not to get the exemption, to try the subject out and to stay with it until the end of second year and to see how that works and that as a last resort we would be granting it.

An bhfuil na príomhoidí ag súil le laghdú ar dhíolúine mar go bhfeicfidh daltaí scoile an buntáiste a bheidh ann le Gaeilge toisc go mbeidh i bhfad níos mó poist ann mar gheall ar an athrú ina mbeidh 20% de phoist sa Stát ceangailte le hinniúlacht sa Ghaeilge nó go mbeidh Gaeilge den scoth ag daltaí scoile amach anseo?

Mr. Paul Byrne

One of the first things principals say when chatting to parents is that it is an advantage for students to have and study Irish, and to keep it on as they go forward from school. We would chat about the different employment opportunities in which Irish is needed.

D’éist mé go cúramach leis an méid a bhí le rá ag Paul Byrne; bhí sé spéisiúil. Ar an gcéad dul síos, an bhfuil sé cuí agus cóir go leagfaí an dualgas seo ar na príomhoidí? De réir mar a thuigim, ní féidir an dualgas a tharmligean d’éinne eile sa scoil. Ar an dara dul síos, cé mhéad scoláire a fhaigheann díolúine ón nGaeilge a roghnaíonn staidéar a dhéanamh ar theanga iasachta, nó teanga eile taobh amuigh den Bhéarla, don ardteistiméireacht?

Ar an tríú dul síos, meas Mr. Byrne an bhfuil tionchar ag éileamh na ndíolúintí ag rás na bpointí, is é sin, go bhfuil daoine ag déanamh amach go ndéanfaidís níos fearr san ardteistiméireacht mura mbeadh an Ghaeilge mar ábhar acu? Ní hé nach bhféadfaidís an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim ach dhéanfaidís níos fearr san ardteistiméireacht ó thaobh an rása seo do na pointí le fáil isteach sna hinstitiúidí tríú leibhéal, is é sin, go bhfuil pointí níos éasca le fáil in ábhar eile.

Mr. Paul Byrne

I will start with the final questions first. I have observed a practice in the past whereby if people were able to get a psychological report to allow an Irish exemption, it would allow for the students to take on another subject where it may be easier to get the points needed for a course. I did not quite catch the Deputy's first question.

Does Mr. Byrne think it is fair that the obligations on the príomhoidí to do the-----

Mr. Paul Byrne

It is an onerous obligation. Apart from the work part of the exemption, when it was sent away principals did not have as much interaction with the parents over it. If anything, it seemed to be more independent. However, the problem was that parents who could afford to get the psychological report done were more likely to apply for an Irish exemption and be successful in that.

Arbh é leigheas na faidhbe é déanamh cinnte go mbeadh na scrúduithe sin ar fáil in aisce ar chostas an Stáit? Tá trí rogha ann, is iad sin, an rud a bhí ann cheana lena bhféidir dul ann go príobháideach; go gcuirfeadh an Stát na scrúduithe ar fáil nó go ndéanfadh na príomhoidí é. De na trí rogha sin, cé acu ab fhearr?

Mr. Paul Byrne

It was probably better when it was done outside the school but the process that is in place for looking at the child's educational needs, additional or otherwise, and application to learning is a much fairer approach than the school making a decision on whether to make the application for an exemption, because everybody is equal when it is done from that standpoint.

D’fhéadfadh an próiseas céanna a bheith déanta go neamhspleách seachas an t-ualach a bheith ar an bpríomhoide. Níor mhaith liomsa a bheith i mo phríomhoide ar scoil agus duine a bheith ag iarraidh rud mar sin orm agus tuismitheoirí do mo chrá agus go gcaithfinn cinneadh a dhéanamh agus b'fhéidir drochbhail a chothú. B'fhearr liomsa i bhfad go mbeadh sé déanta ag duine neamhspleách. Tá mé fírinneach faoi. Tá a fhios againn ó bheith ag déanamh obair dháilcheantair go mbeadh sé deacair daoine a dhiúltú dá mba rud é go raibh sé fúinn gach uile chinneadh a dhéanamh. Dá mba rud é go raibh an próiseas atá ann ach an duine an ndéanfadh an cinneadh neamhspleách ón scoil, an mbeadh sé níos fearr?

Mr. Paul Byrne

The process that is there is better but if the decision that was made by someone other than the principal, it might be a better system.

I asked about líon na ndaoine a n-éiríonn leo teanga iasachta a dhéanamh le hais na teanga dúchasaí Gaeilge agus a dhéanann Spáinnis, Fraincis, Sínis nó teanga éigin eile ach a deir nach féidir leo an Ghaeilge a thabhairt leo. Ní teanga chomh deacair sin í an Ghaeilge. Fuair mise an Fhraincis i bhfad níos deacra ar scoil ná mar a fuair mé an Ghaeilge agus bhí orainn an Laidin a dhéanamh an t-am sin. B'fhearr liomsa an Ghaeilge ná teanga eile. Tháinig sí chugam i bhfad níos éasca ach is é sin mise. An gcuireann sé iontas ar Mr. Byrne go bhfuil go leor gasúr ann atá in ann teanga iasachta a dhéanamh agus nach bhfuil in ann an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim?

Mr. Paul Byrne

I have to apologise. I did not fully follow what the Deputy-----

All sorts of languages are now in vogue which is great and fantastic. However, does it surprise Mr. Byrne that people who can start to comprehend and learn languages from continental Europe or China or Japan in secondary school - we must remember they are not done in primary school - still cannot learn Irish? What does that say? Irish is not that difficult of a language.

Mr. Paul Byrne

The reasoning that I get from parents is that they need to have German, French or whatever language it is, for a particular course in college. The student may have a difficulty with languages and it lessens the burden if the student only has to do the one. However, the circular has made sure that it has to be a learning difficulty. There are very specific reasons why the exemption will be granted. The circular is very clear. If the application by the parents does not fall into one of the categories in the circular, it is not a valid application. The Deputy asked how students have the ability to do French, German or Mandarin. My experience is that only a small number of students do a modern European language if they have an Irish exemption.

For the information of Mr. Byrne, Irish is a modern European language.

Mr. Paul Byrne

My apologies.

There are people who use it as an everyday language for business, commerce and staidéar. It is an official European language.

I will dig out na fíricí maidir leis an líon daltaí a bhfuil díolúintí acu ón Ghaeilge agus atá ag déanamh staidéir ar theanga eile. Ní líon beag é in aon chor. Measaim go bhfuil sé thar 60% de dhaltaí a bhfuil díolúintí acu agus is minic go mbíonn onóracha á ndéanamh acu. B'fhéidir go bhfuil fáthanna leis sin ach is léir nach bhfuil fadhb bhunúsach acu siúd. Is é sin an fáth gur iarraidh orainn agus gur ghlacamar an cinneadh díriú isteach ar na bunfhadhbanna a bhaineann le córas na ndíolúintí agus ar an bhfáth go bhfuil ardú chomh suntasach sin tar éis teacht ar líon na ndaltaí atá ag staidéar don ardteistiméireacht. Is beagnach 22% é líon na ndaltaí a bhfuil díolúintí acu. Anuas air sin, measaim go bhfuil daoine ann nach nglacann páirt san ardteistiméireacht ó thaobh na Gaeilge de. Ní cuimhin liom cé hé a dúirt go raibh scoileanna ann a dhiúltaíonn do dhíolúintí a thabhairt. An bhfuil sé coitianta go bhfuil scoileanna ann nach bhfuil sásta éisteacht a thabhairt le hiarratais ar dhíolúintí?

Mr. Paul Byrne

If an application is made, every school has to follow the process.

I know there are no exemptions from Irish in the gaelscoileanna.

That would be logical anyway.

Mr. Paul Byrne

It is written as well.

Just as in English-speaking schools, there would not be a díolúine for English. Bhí an Teachta Ó Cuív ag iarraidh teacht isteach ansin.

An bhfuil aon bhriseadh síos againn ar na haicmí atá i gceist? Cá bhfuil na scoileanna seo atá ag tabhairt go leor díolúintí? Bheadh sé thar a bheith spéisiúil a fháil amach cá háit ina bhfuil siad.

Níl an briseadh síos sin againn ach chonaic an Teachta liosta na n-eagras a bhí le bheith linn anseo inniu agus b’fhéidir go raibh an t-eolas sin ag roinnt acu. Déanfaimid é a fhiosrú roimh an chéad cruinniú eile ionas go mbeidh an t-eolas atá againn foirfe.

Tá deireadh anois leis na ceisteanna. Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil le Paul Byrne agus le Paul Crone as ucht bheith linn inniu agus cuidiú linn sa phlé seo. Má ritheann aon eolas breise leo nó má tá daoine ag iarraidh nóta faisnéise ar bith eile ar an ábhar seo a chur ar aghaidh chugainn, bheadh fáilte roimh a leithéid. Cuireann sé sin deireadh lenár bplé ar an gceist seo inniu agus ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis na finnéithe arís as ucht bheith anseo agus cuidiú linn.

Ag an gcéad cruinniú eile den choiste seo, pléfear an cheist chéanna - córas na ndíolúintí i leith staidéar na Gaeilge sa mheánscolaíocht - leis an Aire Oideachais, an Teachta Foley. Tá an cuma air go mbeidh oifigigh léi chomh maith. Tá súil agam go mbeidh ionadaithe ó roinnt de na heagrais a dhiúltaigh teacht os ár gcomhair inniu - dúirt an Roinn Oideachais leo gan teacht os ár gcomhair - i láthair chomh maith céanna.

Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar athló ar 2.32 p.m. go dtí 1.30 p.m. Dé Céadaoin, an 26 Deireadh Fómhair 2022.
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