Comhchoiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Oct 2022

Díolúintí i leith Staidéar na Gaeilge sa Mheánscolaíocht: Plé (Atógáil)

Chairman

Tá leithscéal faighte ón Seanadóir Mullen. Tá seans nach mbeidh an Leas-Cheann Comhairle, an Teachta Connolly, in ann freastal ar an gcruinniú ach an oiread. Bíonn sí gafa sa Chathaoir sa Dáil i bhfad níos minice anois.

Cuirim fáilte roimh chomhaltaí an choiste agus na Comhaltaí eile atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú, roimh na finnéithe atá anseo chun labhairt os ár gcomhair agus roimh ár lucht féachana ar theilifís an Oireachtais. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Oideachais, an Teachta Norma Foley agus a hoifigigh ón Roinn: Dalton Tattan, rúnaí cúnta; Martina Mannion, rúnaí cúnta; Evelyn O’Connor, príomhoifigeach sa rannóg beartas, churaclam agus measúnacht; Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe, príomhoifigeach san aonad um oideachas Gaeltachta; agus Eibhlín Ní Scannláin, cigire sinsearach. Chomh maith leis sin, cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe eile atá inár dteannta inniu. Ón gComhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta, COGG, cuirim fáilte roimh Jacqueline Ní Fhearghusa, príomhfheidhmeannach, agus Dónal Ó hAiniféin, cathaoirleach. Ón gComhairle Náisiúnta um Oideachas Speisialta, NCSE, cuirim fáilte roimh John Kearney, príomhfheidhmeannach, agus Cathy Connolly, múinteoir cuartaíochta. Chomh maith leis sin cuirim fáilte roimh Anne Tansey, atá ina stiúrthóir sa tSeirbhís Náisiúnta Síceolaíochta Oideachais, NEPS. Tá súil agam go bhfuil gach duine luaite agam.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as a bheith anseo chun cuidiú linn sa phlé atá á dhéanamh againn ar chóras na ndíolúintí i leith staidéar na Gaeilge sa mheánscolaíocht. Mar is eol don Aire agus don Roinn, thug an coiste cuireadh do na trí eagras teacht os a chomhair an tseachtain seo caite. Faraor, níor glacadh leis an gcuireadh so tá dlús leis an méid daoine atá anseo inniu agus muid ag iarraidh críoch a chur leis an tsraith seo cruinnithe ar cheist na ndíolúintí. Tá dhá ghné éagsúla i gceist agus an t-ábhar seo á phlé againn inniu. Is chuige sin a d’eagraigh muid dhá chruinniú ar leith. Bhí sé i gceist go mbeadh an tAire ag déileáil le straitéis agus beartas an Rialtais ach déanfaimid é seo ar dtús inniu. Tá cúraimí eile ag an Aire ag a 3 a chlog so déanfaimid iarracht an chuid sin den chruinniú a chríochnú roimhe sin. Ina dhiaidh sin agus tuilleadh eolais á iarraidh againn, beidh an-suim againn san fhianaise maidir le riarachán agus cur i bhfeidhm córas na ndíolúintí, a bheidh á plé ag na heagrais atá anseo linn, COGG, an NCSE agus NEPS.

Meabhraím do chomhaltaí, d’fhinnéithe agus do bhaill fhoirne a chinntiú go bhfuil a ngutháin shoghluaiste múchta le linn an chruinnithe mar gur féidir leis na gléasanna sin cur as do chóras craolacháin, eagarthóireachta agus fuaime Thithe an Oireachtais. Tá an rogha ag comhaltaí freastal ar an gcruinniú go fisiciúil sa seomra coiste nó go fíorúil ar Microsoft Teams, ar an gcoinníoll i gcás cruinnithe phoiblí gur óna n-oifigí i dTithe an Oireachtais a dhéantar sin. Is riachtanas bunreachtúil é seo. Má tá siad á dhéanamh seo, ba chóir an físeán a bheith ar siúl an t-am go léir agus iad ag féachaint ar an scáileán. Baineann an coinníoll seo le finnéithe freisin ach inniu tá na finnéithe ar fad os ár gcomhair. Meabhraím dóibh a chinntiú go bhfuil a micreafóin múchta nuair nach bhfuil siad ag labhairt.

Cuirim ar aird na bhfinnéithe go bhfuil siad, de bhua Bhunreacht na hÉireann agus reachtaíochta araon, faoi chosaint ag lánphribhléid maidir leis an bhfianaise a thugann siad don chomhchoiste chomh fada agus atá siad lonnaithe laistigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais agus an fhianaise sin á tabhairt acu. Ní féidir le finnéithe brath ar an gcosaint sin má tá siad lasmuigh de Thithe an Oireachtais.

Molaim d’fhinnéithe, go mór mór dóibh siúd atá ag teacht isteach ó lasmuigh, a bheith cúramach agus fianaise á tabhairt acu. Má ordaíonn an comhchoiste dóibh éirí as fianaise a thabhairt i leith ní áirithe, ba chóir dóibh déanamh amhlaidh láithreach. Ordaítear dóibh gan aon fhianaise a thabhairt nach fianaise í a bhaineann le hábhar na n-imeachtaí atá á bplé ag an gcomhchoiste. Ba chóir dóibh a bheith ar an eolas go ndéanfar na ráitis tosaigh a chuir siad faoi bhráid an chomhchoiste a fhoilsiú ar shuíomh gréasáin an chomhchoiste tar éis an chruinnithe seo.

Fiafraítear d’fhinnéithe agus do chomhaltaí araon cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú nár chóir, más féidir, daoine nó eintiteas a cháineadh ná líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainmneacha nó ar shlí a bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, fiafraítear dóibh gan aon rud a rá a d’fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfadh a ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó eintiteas aitheanta, ordófar do na finnéithe éirí as na ráitis sin láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfidh siad leis an ordú sin láithreach.

Cuirfimid tús leis an gcruinniú i gceart. Sula ndéanfaidh mé é sin, aithním go bhfuil an Teachta McHugh ag freastal ar an gcruinniú óna oifig. Chonaic mé an Seanadóir Kyne níos luaithe. B'fhéidir go mbeidh sé ar ais linn. Iarraim anois ar an Aire Oideachais, an Teachta Foley, a ráiteas tosaigh a dhéanamh.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

Tá an-áthas orm a bheith anseo le Comhchoiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge chun plé a dhéanamh ar dhíolúintí ó staidéar a dhéanamh ar an nGaeilge. Tá an cás a bhaineann le díolúintí teanga casta agus níl aon réitigh shimplí ar fáil ina leith. Feidhmíonn an Roinn i dtimpeallacht ina ndéantar an-chuid comhairliúcháin agus í ag obair le páirtithe leasmhara maidir le polasaí a fhorbairt agus a chur i bhfeidhm.

Sula ndéanaim ceist na ndíolúintí a phlé, ba mhaith liom an méid ollmhór oibre atá á déanamh ag mo Roinn chun tacú le teagasc agus foghlaim na Gaeilge a mheabhrú arís. Tá an Roinn ag tabhairt faoi líon suntasach gníomhaíochtaí. Ina measc sin, tá an Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge 2010-2030 agus an plean gníomhaíochta cúig bliana a bhaineann léi faoina bhfuil réimse gníomhaíochtaí á gcur i gcrích ag mo Roinn agus ag a cuid gníomhaireachtaí, lena n-áirítear: an polasaí don oideachas Gaeltachta, forbairtí curaclaim sna teangacha, foghlaim ghairmiúil leanúnach do mhúinteoirí, agus tionscadal um fhoghlaim chomhtháite ábhar agus teanga ó na luathbhlianta go dtí leibhéal na hiar-bhunscoile chun tacú le teagasc agus foghlaim na Gaeilge trí pháirt-thumadh in ábhair eile trí Ghaeilge.

Tá forbairt á déanamh ar pholasaí nua maidir le hoideachas trí Ghaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Is céimeanna tábhachtacha iad an polasaí seo agus an polasaí don oideachas Gaeltachta maidir le comhlíonadh an ghealltanais a rinneadh i gclár an Rialtais polasaí cuimsitheach a fhorbairt i dtaca leis an nGaeilge sa chóras oideachais. Seolfar próiseas comhairliúcháin phoiblí an tseachtain seo. Chomh maith leis sin, bunaíodh COGG go speisialta chun tacú leis an nGaeilge. Tugann NEPS agus an NCSE tacaíocht do scoileanna freisin.

In ainneoin stádas na Gaeilge mar chroí-ábhar sna scoileanna go léir a dtugann an Roinn aitheantas dóibh, tá polasaí i leith díolúintí ó staidéar a dhéanamh ar an nGaeilge i bhfeidhm le blianta fada. I dtús báire, tugadh díolúintí do leanaí ionadaithe taidhleoireachta agus consalachta. Le himeacht ama, leathnaíodh na forais ar an bhféadfaí díolúine a dheonú chun leanaí a raibh riachtanais speisialta oideachais acu a chur san áireamh agus spreagadh níos mó á thabhairt dóibh chun oideachas a fháil i suímh phríomhshrutha agus tacaíocht á cur ar fáil dóibh chuige sin.

Ó tugadh isteach ciorcláin na 1990idí, tá athruithe suntasacha tagtha chun cinn i scoileanna. Ar an gceann is bunúsaí, tá an bhéim atá curtha ag rialtais éagsúla ar shamhail an oideachais ionchuimsithigh, áit a gcuirtear oideachas ar leanaí a bhfuil riachtanais speisialta oideachais acu i dtimpeallacht ionchuimsitheach in éineacht lena bpiaraí nach bhfuil riachtanais den chineál sin acu. Tá an prionsabal seanbhunaithe sin in Éirinn cumhdaithe sa reacht faoi alt 2 den Acht um Oideachas do Dhaoine a bhfuil Riachtanais Speisialta Oideachais Acu, 2004. Sa lá atá inniu ann, faigheann formhór mór na leanaí a bhfuil riachtanais speisialta oideachais acu oideachas i ranganna príomhshrutha agus tacaíochtaí tábhachtacha ar fáil dóibh de réir mar is cuí. Déanann ranganna speisialta agus scoileanna speisialta ach go háirithe freastal níos mó ar scoláirí a bhfuil na riachtanais bhreise is casta acu. Go minic is scoláirí iad sin a bhfuil riachtanais leighis acu atá an-suntasach.

Chuir athbhreithniú cuimsitheach ar chiorcláin na 1990idí bonn eolais faoi chiorcláin 2019. Bhí freagairt as cuimse ar an gcomhairliúchán poiblí ag an am agus tugadh breis agus 11,000 freagra agus cuireadh isteach breis agus 100 aighneacht, lena n-áirítear ceann ó bhreis agus 4,000 tuismitheoir. Léiríonn sé sin cé chomh tábhachtach agus atá foghlaim na Gaeilge do líon an-mhór daoine.

Mar fhreagra ar iarratais ó roinnt páirtithe leasmhara, thug an Roinn gealltanas go ndéanfadh sí athbhreithniú tosaigh ar chiorcláin 2019 tar éis dhá bhliain. Cuireadh éagsúlacht mhór fianaise agus breithnithe san áireamh san athbhreithniú sin. Is maith is eol don Roinn an ríthábhacht a bhaineann leis an nGaeilge agus le cur chun cinn na Gaeilge sa chóras oideachais agus bhí sé sin mar threoirphrionsabal san athbhreithniú. Fuarthas mórán fiosruithe ar an teileafón agus breis agus 1,000 mír chomhfhreagrais. Tháinig formhór dóibh ó thuismitheoirí a bhí ag lorg díolúintí dá leanaí. Bhain mórán acu le cásanna ina raibh riachtanais speisialta oideachais i gceist. Ina theannta sin, scríobh an tOmbudsman do Leanaí chuig mo Roinn faoi líon áirithe cásanna nuair nár ceadaíodh díolúine do leanaí a raibh riachtanais speisialta oideachais acu. Chuir sé cás-staidéar maidir le díolúintí ó staidéar a dhéanamh ar an nGaeilge san áireamh freisin ina thuarascáil bhliantúil do 2021.

Athdhearbhaíodh san athbhreithniú go bhfuil cohórt leanaí ann a bhfuil riachtanais iomadúla agus seasmhacha acu a chuireann bac suntasach orthu a bheith rannpháirteach ina gcuid foghlama agus i saol na scoile. Tá a fhios agam go dtuigfidh an coiste, faoi mar a thuigimse, na dúshláin laethúla atá roimh leanaí a bhfuil riachtanais speisialta oideachais acu agus go bhféadfaí a shamhlú gur ceapadh struchtúir a chuireann an Stát i bhfeidhm chun na dúshláin sin a mhéadú. Cheap mé go raibh sé tábhachtach na fíordhúshláin sin a aithint agus, nuair is féidir é sin a dhéanamh, iarracht a dhéanamh iad a mhaolú agus ag an am céanna tábhacht na Gaelainne a aithint. Tá sé mar chuspóir ag ciorcláin 2022 aghaidh a thabhairt ar an gceist sin. Ar aon dul le ciorcláin 2019, tá foráil ann go mbeadh sé de rogha ag scoileanna cinntí a dhéanamh ag an leibhéal áitiúil ar mhaithe le leas na leanaí atá i gceist agus gairmiúlacht ghairm na múinteoireachta agus, go deimhin, an t-eolas atá ag scoileanna ar a gcuid scoláirí agus ar a gcuid riachtanas á gcur san áireamh.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil imní léirithe go bhfuil fás an-mhór tagtha ar líon na ndíolúintí. Tuigfidh baill an choiste go bhfuil fás ag teacht ar líon na leanaí a bhfuil riachtanais speisialta oideachais á léiriú acu agus go bhfuil leanaí a ndéantaí iad a theagasc sa bhaile roimhe seo ag freastal ar an scoil anois mar gheall ar fheabhas a bheith tagtha ar na tacaíochtaí a sholáthraítear. Ar ndóigh, beidh tionchar aige sin ar líon na ndíolúintí agus táim cinnte go dtuigfidh baill den choiste na buntáistí a bhaineann baill uile an phobail scoile as an ionchuimsiú.

Creidim go bhfuil sé tábhachtach go mbeadh teacht ag gach leanbh ar an nGaeilge agus ar an deis í a fhoghlaim a oiread agus is féidir. Déantar foráil i ngach ceann de na ciorcláin go bhfuiltear ag súil go gcuirfidh scoileanna deiseanna ar fáil do na daltaí go léir, a oiread agus is féidir agus ar bhealach fiúntach, chun páirt a ghlacadh i ngníomhaíochtaí a bhaineann le teanga agus cultúr na Gaeilge ag leibhéal atá oiriúnach dá riachtanais foghlama agus spreagtar iad chun sin a dhéanamh.

Leagtar síos coinníollacha dochta don chatagóir nua dá bhforáiltear faoi na ciorcláin sula bhféadfar díolúine a cheadú. Níor cheart go mbeadh díolúine i gceist ach sa chás nach bhfuil aon rogha eile ann. Is saineolaithe iad múinteoirí ina ngairm féin agus déantar iad a chumasú agus tugtar acmhainní dóibh ina n-oiliúint tosaigh múinteoirí agus i bhforbairt ghairmiúil leanúnach chun tacaíocht dhifreáilte a sholáthar. Ina theannta sin, tá foráil shonrach déanta agam sna ciorcláin go gcuirfidh an Roinn leibhéal monatóireachta trí chigireacht i gcrích lena chinntiú go bhfuil na ciorcláin á bhfeidhmiú mar a bhí sé beartaithe iad a fheidhmiú. Ó tharla nach bhfuil ann ach cúpla seachtain ó eisíodh na ciorcláin nua, ní féidir fios a bheith againn chomh luath seo cén tionchar a d'fhéadfadh a bheith acu ar líon na ndíolúintí a ceadaíodh.

Is mian liom buíochas a ghlacadh leis an gcoiste as ucht iniúchadh a dhéanamh ar na ceisteanna fíorthábhachtacha seo. Is mian liom freisin mo thiomantas maidir le tacaíocht a thabhairt do pholasaí an Rialtais i leith na Gaeilge a dhearbhú. Creidim go láidir nach mór ár gcéad teanga oifigiúil a chothú, nach mór tacú léi agus nach mór í a chur ar fáil do scoláirí an oiread agus is féidir. Táim ag tnúth le dul i mbun plé leis an gcoiste faoin ábhar tábhachtach seo. Le cead an Chathaoirligh, beidh idir Ghaeilge agus Béarla á úsáid agam le linn na díospóireachta.

Chairman

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. Nuair atá an tAire críochnaithe ag freagairt ceisteanna ó na comhaltaí, tosóimid leis na finnéithe eile. Caithfidh an tAire a bheith imithe as seo roimh 3 a chlog mar go bhfuil coinne eile aici.

Deputy Pa Daly

Tá fáilte roimh an Aire. Tá an ceart aici go bhfuil fás an-mhór tagtha ar líon na ndíolúintí. De réir an chiorcláin a foilsíodh in 2019, tá sé deacair díolúine a fháil. Tá ar pháistí fadhbanna le litearthacht agus mar sin agus riachtanais iomadúil agus seasmhach a bheith acu. Bhí AsIAm os comhair an choiste le déanaí. Tuigimid go léir na fadhbanna atá ag na leanaí sin. Tá sé soiléir go bhfuil cuid de na tuismitheoirí ag iarraidh díolúintí a fháil agus níl sé ceadaithe de réir an chiorcláin sin. Tá sé soiléir chomh maith go gceapann tuismitheoirí go bhfuil an Ghaeilge níos deacra ná aon teanga eile. Déanann an chuid is mó de na daltaí atá díolúine acu staidéar ar Fhraincis nó ar Ghearmáinis san ardteistiméireacht. Bhíos ag caint le múinteoirí ó mheánscoil i gCill Orglan an tseachtain seo caite agus dúirt duine acu go bhfuil pointí níos airde ar fáil don Ghaelainn ná mar atá do Bhéarla, Fraincis nó Gearmáinis ach is dóigh liom nach dtuigeann a lán daoine é sin. Is muidne in Éirinn an t-aon chóras oideachais a thugann díolúintí den sórt seo. Níl an córas sin ann sa Bhreatain Bheag in aon chor. Tá ceist ghairid agam don Aire. Cén céatadán de dhaltaí le riachtanais speisialta atá ann? Feicimid go bhfuil díolúine ag tuairim is 11% de dhaltaí.

Deputy Norma Foley

Ar an gcéad dul síos, níl sé sin ceart ó thaobh na dtíortha eile. There are exemptions for languages in other countries, such as the UK, Poland and Italy. Specifically with regard to students who have an exemption, we are moving away from a diagnostic-led situation. We have invited schools to work to support students over a prolonged period of time, most notably two years. Where a student is struggling, particularly with difficulties with the language, there would be considerable interventions and it is only after that two-year intervention that an adjudication will be made. That is notwithstanding all the other supports we have in our schools from the point of view of teachers or students and the promotion and encouragement of students to study Irish. More than 82% of our students are taking Irish for the leaving certificate and almost 50% at higher level.

Regarding the percentage of students availing of an exemption, approximately 1.9% have an exemption at primary level. That is down from 3.3% in 2017. At post-primary level it has remained steady from 2017 to now. It is currently in and around 10.5% was around 9% in 2017. That is around 10% of our students at post-primary level and 1.9% at primary.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht teacht isteach. Tá cúpla ceist agam ag éirí as an gcur i láthair a rinne sí. Is dóigh go dtuigeann chuile dhuine go mba cheart díolúintí a bheith ann do dhaoine le riachtanais speisialta, ach ní thugtar díolúine ón mBéarla do dhuine ar bith. Tá teangacha baile ag éirí i bhfad níos coitianta in Éirinn ná mar a bhí cheana. Má tá teanga bhaile ag gasúr, mar Liotuáinis, Polainnis, Gaeilge nó Fraincis, cén tacaíochtaí breise a thugtar dóibh sin? Fiú má tá riachtanais speisialta troma acu, caithfidh na gasúir sin an dara teanga a thabhairt leo, sé sin, an Béarla. Bheadh an-spéis agam fáil amach cén tacaíochtaí teanga bhreise atá á dtabhairt do na daoine sin leis an mBéarla a shealbhú, tharla nach é an teanga bhaile atá acu.

Deir daoine eile go bhfuair siad díolúine de bharr gur tháinig siad isteach sa tír agus iad os cionn aois áirid. Creidim go bhfuil a leithéidí siúd sa chóras agus thuigfeá go mbeadh siadsan ag déanamh teanga eile, ar nós na teanga baile, i gcás duine a tháinig anseo ón bPolainn nuair a bhí siad 13 bliana nó mar sin. Ag fágáil na daoine sin as, an bhfuil a fhios againn cé mhéad scoláire a fhaigheann díolúine ón nGaeilge sa mheánscoil ach a dhéanann staidéar ar theanga iasachta eile? Sin ceist mhór atá éirithe arís agus arís eile ag an gcoiste seo. Cén chaoi a dtarlaíonn sé go bhfuil siad in ann teanga a thosú sa chéad bhliain sa mheánscoil agus í a thabhairt leo ach níl siad in ann an Ghaeilge a thabhairt leo sa bhunscoil nó sa mheánscoil agus buntáiste de 14 bliain ag foghlaim acu? Tá súil agam go dtuigeann an tAire céard atá i gceist agam leis an 14 bliain, mar go ndéantar an Ghaeilge sa bhunscoil agus sa mheánscoil.

Deputy Norma Foley

On the supports, I want to be very clear that there are considerable supports being provided in our schools for students who are in receipt of special education. For example, we currently have almost 40,000 staff in our schools dedicated to supporting children who have a particular special education need. That is considerable support. It is a massive support given where we were heretofore.

In terms of those who may have an exemption from Irish learning another language, I will be very clear. There is no obligation on any student to take any particular leaving certificate exam. They can study subjects but they are not obliged to actually turn up on the day to take the exam. We are making services available for the students who are exempted from Irish for very specific reasons. It is not a singular judgment made on one day, but one made over a considerable period of time following significant intervention by the special education teaching, SET, allocation and the provision of a variety of supports within the school. Only then is a judgment made by the school staff, who are the experts in the field. That judgment is made for a variety of reasons and is verifiable over a two-year period. I do not think it would be fair to seek to ensure that a student who has an exemption from one subject should not have an opportunity to study certain other subjects. That would defeat the purpose and is not what we are about in education. Exemptions are provided from Irish to ensure students can access the curriculum to the fullest extent possible. It is not our place to limit student opportunities in terms of anything else they might choose to do within the system.

It is important to say that even when students opt out of learning Irish after two years of verifiable interventions, they are encouraged to continue to be assimilated into what is happening in terms of Irish in the school and in the class. I acknowledge that schools are very good at doing that. We have new circumstances now on foot of 2022. Ms Tansey from NEPS may want to comment specifically on why students might need to withdraw and on what specific issues are presented to students. I want to be clear that the whole impetus in education is to ensure students have opportunities to access the curriculum. If it is clearly identified, after two years, that the study of this particular subject is limiting a student's ability to integrate into school and access the fuller curriculum, an exemption is granted. It is only granted after considerable interventions within the school. If the committee wishes to hear the view of NEPS, I am sure Ms Tansey will be happy to come in on that.

Chairman

Déanfaimid é sin níos déanaí toisc an brú ama. An bhfuil an Teachta Ó Cuív críochnaithe?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tá ceist deiridh amháin agam. Tuigim an rud atá á rá ag an Aire maidir leis na múinteoirí ach ag deireadh an lae, de réir mar a thuigimse, titeann an dualgas seo go haonaránach ar an bpríomhoide. An gceapann an Aire go bhfuil sé cothrom gur orthu siúd a thiteann an dualgas díolúine a dhiúltú nó a cheadú, go háirithe i gcomhthéacs na ngaol a chaithfeadh a bheith idir príomhoidí agus tuismitheoirí?

Deputy Norma Foley

Chun an fhírinne a rá, ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sé sin ceart. I do not think that is 100% correct because the adjudication will only be made after a number of years of intervention by the school team. That includes the SET allocation and in some instances the pastoral team. The sign-off may well come from the principal but it will be a decision that has been reached after considerable work, intervention and support has been provided to a student.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Will the Minister explain that because students in first year in secondary school can get díolúine na Gaeilge? How can they have had a few years of the process the Minister refers to, which supposedly takes two or three years? In that case they would be doing the junior certificate before they could get díolúine na Gaeilge but it does not seem to work like that.

Deputy Norma Foley

That process may well have begun at primary school level. It is a two-year intervention.

We have strong distributed leadership in our schools. One in three staff members within our schools are now post holders. Many of them hold posts in the area of special education. It is not a unilateral decision made by the principal, and nor would I want it to be. It is a shared decision which is made after a series of interventions over a long period of time. The best judgment is made by the staff members who are the experts in the field and engage every single day with the student. This would obviously take place under the leadership of the principal and that is right and proper.

I have referenced all of the various interventions, initiatives, strategies and supports within my Department to encourage staff with Irish. We provide, fund and support a bachelor of education degree for teachers and a master's degree for teachers. There is ongoing professional development. An extraordinary body of work is faoi lán seol in the Department to support, nurture and grow the Irish language. There has to be a recognition that out of 1 million students, there will be some who identify with a difficulty here. The exemption is offered to ensure they get the maximum opportunity to engage in school. As I have said previously, it is an exemption that is only offered after significant intervention.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a cur i láthair. Táimid ag plé anseo le díolúintí do dhaoine le riachtanais speisialta oideachais agus tá réimse an-leathan riachtanais faoin teideal sin. Glacann gach éinne ar an gcoiste seo leis go bhfuil cásanna ann ina bhfuil sé go huile is go hiomlán oiriúnach díolúintí a thabhairt do dhaltaí. Cuireann sé isteach ar dhaoine nuair a bhíonn díolúine don Ghaeilge ag páiste nó mac léinn, ach leanann an duine sin ar aghaidh chun staidéar a dhéanamh ar theangacha éagsúla eile cosúil leis an Spáinnis nó an Ghearmáinis. Bíonn imní ann i gcónaí gurb í an príomh-fhadhb anseo ná go bhfuil droch-mheas ag na daltaí - nó b’fhéidir ag na tuismitheoirí - ar luach na Gaeilge agus cé chomh húsáideach is atá sí, más céadfach dom an téarma sin a úsáid.

Luafaidh mé cás amháin. Tá cara liom a bhfuil disléicse air. Nuair atá sé ag léamh Béarla, Gaeilge nó teanga ar bith eile, léann sé tús agus deireadh na bhfocal agus is “best guess” atá ann maidir le pé rud atá ag tarlú sa lár. Dúirt sé liom gurb é an rud is deacra dó ó thaobh na Gaeilge de ná go n-athraíonn tús na bhfocal sin i gcónaí le hurú, séimhiú nó pé rud eile mar sin. Is féidir uimhir iolra d’ainmfhocail a lua mar shampla freisin. Athraíonn an focal agus ní bhíonn a fhios agat an gcríochnaíonn sé le “í” nó “aí”.

Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur agus b’fhéidir go bhfuil sé níos oiriúnaí do lucht NEPS nó an NCSE. B'fhéidir go gcuirfidh mé an cheist in athuair níos déanaí. Níor mhaith liom aon pholasaí a bhunú ar scéal dhuine amháin ach an bhfuil aon bhunús sa mhéid a luaigh mé? An bhfuil aon taighde ar fáil a léiríonn go bhfuil an Ghaeilge níos deacra mar theanga? Ní dóigh liom go nglacaim le sin; tá rud éagsúil i ngach aon teanga atá deacair. An bhfuil aon taighde a léiríonn go bhfuil aon ghné faoi leith a bhaineann leis an nGaeilge a dhéanann níos deacra í do dhaoine le riachtanais speisialta oideachais? An bhfuil taighde ar bith ann a léiríonn go mbeadh sé níos fusa do dhuine éigin Spáinnis a fhoghlaim ná an Ghaelainn?

Deputy Norma Foley

Ar an gcéad dul síos, tá an ceart ag an Teachta. Tá réimse an-leathan ann. The very wide range of special education needs is largely due to the fact that we know so much more now in terms of special education than we did in 1998 when special education was first recognised. At that time we had 104 special education teachers and 229 special needs assistants, SNAs, in our schools. Today, we have 19,000 special education teachers and 20,000 SNAs - almost 40,000 staff - and this is what we want. The reason for this increase is that our understanding of special education has advanced tenfold. Given that our knowledge and breadth of understanding of special education has increased exponentially, we would expect the grounds on which exemptions are granted also to have widened.

I am not an expert in languages and I cannot say whether Irish is more difficult or challenging to access than other languages. The Deputy is correct when he says there are difficulties with every language. Irrespective of the challenges that are presented here, it is a fair achievement to say that the exemptions that are provided for are at 1.9% at primary level and have been holding steady at approximately 9% to 10% at post-primary level. Some 82% of our student body chooses to take the exam at leaving certificate level and almost 50% of those take the exam at higher level.

Much is being done right with regard to accessing Irish. Obviously, we can do better in every subject, including Irish. I would have to leave it to others to determine whether it is more difficult to access Irish, especially from a NEPS point of view.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

B'fhéidir go dtiocfainn ar ais ar an gceist sin níos déanaí.

Chairman

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Teachta O'Sullivan ina gcéad chruinniú mar bhall den choiste.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Fuair an coiste an tAire díreach le haghaidh an chéad chruinniú freisin. Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. Tá cúpla ceist agam don Aire. Cuirim fáilte roimpi chomh maith. An bhfuil an figiúr ag an Roinn maidir leis an líon bunscoláirí a thiteann amach as oideachas Ghaelainne agus a théann ar aghaidh go dtí an mheánscoil? Is iad sin daltaí a thagann ó bhunscoil lán-Ghaeilge agus nuair a athraíonn siad go dtí an mheánscoil, titeann siad amach as an gcóras lán-Ghaelach. Chuirfinn fáilte roimh an bhfigiúr sin dá mbeadh sé ag an Roinn.

Céard é an líon scoláirí a thagann ó bhunscoil lán-Ghaelach nach ndéanann Gaeilge don teastas sóisearach ná don ardteistiméireacht? Is é an fáth go bhfuilim ag cur na ceiste sin ná go raibh mé ag múineadh na Gaeilge don teastas sóisearach cheana féin toisc go raibh ganntanas múinteoirí Gaeilge sa scoil. Chuir sé ionadh orm an méid scoláirí a tháinig ó bhunscoil áitiúil a bhí rite go hiomlán trí Ghaeilge agus a raibh díolúine acu roimh an teastas sóisearach. Daltaí ab ea iad a raibh Gaeilge líofa ó bhéal acu, ach b'fhéidir nach raibh siad ró-láidir ag an bpíosa scríofa don teastas sóisearach. Chuirfinn fáilte roimh an bhfigiúr sin dá mbeadh sé ag an Roinn.

Bhí an tAire ag caint mar gheall ar na hidirghabhálacha éagsúla atá déanta ar scoil. Bhí suim agam éisteacht leis sin nuair a bhí sí ag labhairt leis an Teachta Ó Cuív. Cad iad na hidirghabhálacha sin? Bhí siad deacair le feiceáil nuair a bhí mé ag múineadh ar an meánscoil.

Is í an cheist is tábhachtaí ná agam ceist mar gheall ar an gcuraclam. Bhí an Teachta Ó Cathasaigh ag rá níos luaithe go mb’fhéidir go raibh an Ghaeilge níos deacra ná ábhair eile. Is é sin an meon atá ag roinnt daoine. Is í an fhadhb ná an curaclam féin. Tá sé casta go leor do dhaltaí. Dúirt an tAire go raibh forbairt churaclaim sna teangacha fós ar siúl. An féidir léi update a thabhairt dúinn mar gheall ar an bhforbairt sin sa churaclam? Is é an gearán is mó a bhí ag na daltaí nuair a bhí mé ag múineadh sa mheánscoil ná go raibh an curaclam róchasta agus róbhunaithe ar an méid scríofa. Luadh níos luaithe gur cheart dúinn an rogha a thabhairt do dhaltaí rochtain a fháil ar an gcuraclam. Caithfidh sé a bheith áisiúil do dhaltaí. Is é an t-aon slí gur féidir linn é sin a dhéanamh ná an fhorbairt churaclaim sin a thabhairt chun críche.

Deputy Norma Foley

It is never envisaged that students should fall out of the loop as it were. Even when students receive an exemption, it is very clear that they are encouraged to continue to experience Irish in the school and class and to participate and be part of Irish. The agenda is not for students to fall out of the loop.

The works under way via the Department are quite considerable. We have our Gaeltacht education policy; the Gaeltacht school recognition scheme; the e-hub project and the policy in Irish medium. We also have the content and language integrated learning, CLIL, project to support the teaching and learning of Irish in English-medium schools and settings, access to partial immersion education and promotion of positive attitude towards Irish. We have COGG, from which the committee will hear later, which will outline its initiatives. One such initiative is whereby it is currently involved in the promoting of bilingualism in our schools.

With regard to curricular redevelopment, there is the primary languages curriculum and draft specifications at leaving certificate level. With regard to accessing the leaving certificate, the greatest win for most students is that more than 40% of the exam is now based on the oral. The Deputy will be aware that through senior cycle reform, we are looking at a remodelling of many of these papers. It is to put the spoken language and the experience of the spoken language front and centre and at the heart of the curriculum.

We are talking about continuous professional development, CPD, for staff in schools especially for the new senior cycle. We are looking at everything being run out through our network schools where it will be co-authored with the staff and the students. The cycle will have its centre accessibility to Irish while not forgetting that there is an obligation to cover the culture and history of the language.

I do not believe that students are falling out of the system. Students are given an exemption after considerable consideration of their ability and particular supports being put in place. That has to be formulated in their profile. Only after significant interventions from a variety of sources will the adjudication be made.

I acknowledge the excellent work the committee is doing. I am sure it has taken the opportunity to meet with parents and guardians of children who struggle with the language and to hear about how important it is to them to receive the exemption in order to allow them to access the greater curriculum. I am sure the committee has heard from students as well. The vast majority of students - more than 80% - are taking leaving certificate Irish and almost 50% of them take Irish at higher level. It is a joy to study Irish for the vast majority of them.

I am sure the committee has heard or plans to hear from students who struggle with Irish and how it impacts their accessing of the entire curriculum. That is important. It is my job, as Minister for Education, to hear all voices and adjudicate on how best to ensure there is an equality of access to education. That is where we are at. We are doing all we can to promote, grow and support love of and expertise in the language while acknowledging there is a small cohort of students for whom that is a particular challenge. We need to make a provision for them.

Chairman

Thugamar cuireadh d'Aontas Dhaltaí Iar-bhunscoile na hÉireann agus d'aontas na tuismitheoirí. Ní raibh sé ar a gcumas nó ní raibh sé i gceist acu teacht os ár gcomhair. Scríobhamar chucu ó shin ag lorg go dtabharfaidís aighneachtaí nó a leithéid dúinn ionas gur féidir linn an t-eolas a bhí acu a chur san áireamh in aon tuairisc atá againn. Nílimid ag diúltú dóibh. Má thagann siad ar ais chugainn ag iarraidh teacht os ár gcomhair, bheimis breá sásta. Bhí grúpa AsIAm os ár gcomhair agus bhí tuismitheoir os ár gcomhair a raibh páiste tar éis dul tríd an gcóras.

Táimid réidh le héisteacht. Ba mhaith linn cloisteáil ó dhaoine atá tar éis dul tríd an gcóras ag gach uile leibhéal, ina measc daoine a bhfuil meon difriúil nó an meon céanna acu maidir leis an gceist seo. An bhfuil an Teachta O'Sullivan ag iarraidh teacht isteach arís?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Bhain an cheist is tábhachtaí a bhí agam leis na hidirghabhálacha. Bhíos ag múineadh i meánscoil go dtí 2019 agus, i mo thaithí féin, ní raibh na hidirghabhálacha sin ag tarlú sna scoileanna ag an bpointe sin. Ní raibh comhrá dhá bhliana ar siúl idir múinteoirí nó idir éinne sa seomra foirne. Comhrá cúig nóiméid leis an special needs co-ordinator nó leis an bpríomhoide féin a bhí agam mar mhúinteoir Gaeilge ag an am. Is é sin an méid comhrá agus díospóireachta a bhí agam mar gheall ar díolúintí a thabhairt do dhaltaí éagsúla sa scoil. Cad go díreach iad na hidirghabhálacha seo? Bheadh suim agam cloisteáil fúthu mar atá siad le feiceáil on the ground sna scoileanna.

Deputy Norma Foley

I cannot speak to the Deputy's experience but I also have considerable experience in the school sector. I know that schools must be in a position to produce the portfolio showing the interventions over a two-year period; for example, where there has been engagement with the special education teacher and the various interventions introduced into the school. When the inspectorate visits a school, its officials are entitled to see that information and how it is being progressed. The emphasis is on ensuring the child, or young person at post-primary level, gets every possible opportunity to be integrated into the class and be part of the class. Where that is not possible or where it is flagged by the student, parent or guardian, the school is obliged to show the two-year portfolio or a record of the two-year intervention that is there. I can only speak to my own experience, but differentiated learning is part of the CPD programme and schools have to stand over the judgment they make. I respect their ability to make that judgment and they are best placed to do it. I would not for one minute expect that any principal would make that judgment based on a five-minute conversation and I say that with the utmost of respect to the Deputy. I am long enough in this area to know that the responsibilities conferred upon a principal are taken seriously and that when the inspectorate requests to see the information, it is provided by the school. That is my personal experience.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht teacht os ár gcomhair. Ní baill den choiste mé ach tá suim agam san ábhar seo.

Tá dhá chuspóir tábhachtach á bplé againn anseo; ar an gcéad dul síos, go mbeadh leanaí le riachtanais speisialta oideachais in ann páirt chomh iomlán is gur féidir leo a ghlacadh i saol na scoile agus go bhfuilimid ag tógáil córas oideachais atá tuisceanach ar a gcuid riachtanais agus ag tacú leo. Tá go leor dul chun cinn déanta sa 20 bliain atá caite ó thaobh an chuspóra seo. Baineann an cuspóir eile leis an nGaelainn sa chóras oideachais. Tá an córas oideachais beagáinín eisceachtúil ó thaobh na Gaeilge de, rud a bhaineann le cé chomh lárnach is atá sí i saol na tíre. Caithfimid a bheith aireach nach bhfuil ról na Gaeilge de shíor á laghdú i gceann de na hearnáil ina bhfuil sí láidir. Tá an dá chuspóir sin ann agus an aidhm atá ag an Aire agus ag an gcoiste ná an dá rud a mheá i dteanna a chéile agus an chothromaíocht is fearr a fháil.

Tá roinnt ceisteanna agam. Fillfidh mé ar an gceist a bhí ag an Teachta Ó Cuív ó thaobh na dtacaíochtaí atá ag leanaí atá tar éis teacht anseo ó gach chuid den domhain agus nach bhfuil an Béarla acu mar theanga sa bhaile. Tugadh freagra ar an gceist sin ó thaobh na dtacaíochtaí atá ann do riachtanais oideachasúla i gcoitinne. Tá go leor acu sin ann agus tá go leor áiteanna gur bhreá liom go mbeadh níos mó ann. Má thuig mé an cheist sin i gceart, áfach, an rud a bhí i gceist ná tacaíocht faoi leith do Ghaeilge cosúil leis na múinteoirí English as an additional language, chun é a chur i gcomparáid leis an mBéarla. Ar bhreathnaigh an Roinn riamh ar chóras tacaíochtaí do scoláirí le riachtanais oideachais speisialta a bhaineann leis an nGaeilge? Nílim ag caint anois faoin allocation ginearálta ó thaobh riachtanais speisialta; rud atá fíorthábhachtach agus riachtanach. Ó thaobh na Gaeilge de, an bhfuil sé ar intinn ag an Roinn aon rud den saghas atá ann don Bhéarla a thabhairt isteach nó an bhfuil aon smaoineamh déanta ar sin?

Deputy Norma Foley

In the first instance, aontaím leis that there is a dual agenda here. One is to support children with special educational needs, and the second is to support the growth and advancement of the Irish language. We are on the same page in respect of that. With regard to the supports we provide to children and young people with special educational needs, and I referenced it earlier, we have seen exponential growth in the supports that are being made available in our schools. We now have a situation where many children and young people with special educational needs are integrated into mainstream education and that is as we would want it to be. We have seen the exponential growth in the number of SNAs and special education teachers we have. All of those supports are being provided to ensure children and young people can access education in an environment and a manner that meets their needs. We are absolutely agreed on that. That also includes these students having access to the Irish language and it is very much part of their school experience.

Specific supports are made available for students who struggle or have particular challenges around Irish such as the international adult literacy survey, IALS, in the Gaeltacht sector. What we call learning or teacher support is also made available within schools. This is not just limited to the Irish language and is available for English, maths or whatever the case might be. Significant additional supports are being made available in our schools. There is huge growth in the numbers of special education teachers in our schools. They are specifically there to identify the students who will benefit from additional supports in particular areas of challenge to them, including the Irish language. NEPS also provides specific supports and its representatives will go into that.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Ceart go leor. Is cóir dúinn a bheith ag smaoineamh ar na catagóirí éagsúla i measc leanaí le riachtanais speisialta. Tá leanaí ann nach bhfuil muinín acu nó nach féidir staidéar a dhéanamh ar an nGaeilge, tá dream eile gur féidir, agus tá dream eile arís a mbeadh ag iarraidh staidéar a dhéanamh ar an nGaeilge dá mbeadh níos mó cúnaimh acu. Tá an trí catagóir ann agus is cóir dúinn bheith ag smaoineamh air sin. B’fhéidir go bhfuil níos mó gur féidir a dhéanamh ó thaobh tacaíochtaí a chur ar fáil. Luaigh an Aire na háiteanna eile ina bhfuil a leithéid de chóras ann. An bhféadfaí níos mó a rá linn faoi na tíortha eile ar a bhunaigh muid ár gcóras?

Deputy Norma Foley

Regarding the supports that are being provided to children and young people, I will be very clear. I have referenced it a number of times and do not wish to repeat it but instances of a derogation or an exemption being provided for Irish only happen after two years of intervention in the school where particular supports have been put in place, whether it is differentiated learning or additional SET hours being made available.

It is considerable intervention and not done on a whim. It is done in a considered and appropriate manner, putting the child at the centre, and I want to acknowledge that.

In terms of the references to the UK or Poland or other places, Eibhlín Ní Scannláin from the inspectorate is probably better placed than me to give the greater detail. My understanding is that in each of these jurisdictions such as the UK, Poland and Italy, different derogations are offered on a variety of bases. I invite Eibhlín to give some more detail on that.

Ms Eibhlín Ní Scannláin

Ar dtús mar atá ráite cheana, tá córas díolúintí ón nGaeilge againn anseo in Éirinn le fada an lá. Tá dlínsí eile ina bhfuil córas díolúintí acu a fheidhmíonn ar shlite difriúla chomh maith. I roinnt cásanna, faigheann na daltaí díolúintí ar bhonn riachtanais speisialta mar atá againn anseo. I gcásanna eile, bronntar iad toisc go bhfuil na leanaí nua chun na tíre agus nach bhfuil siad in acmhainn rochtain a bheith acu ar churaclaim na tíre sin - sa Spáinnis, mar shampla - chun dul i ngleic lena gcuid foghlama agus é a dhéanamh trí mheán sprioctheanga nó teanga theagaisc na scoile. Is cinnte go bhfuil córais dhifriúla ann ag braith ar conas mar a chuirtear an curaclaim ar fáil chomh maith. An gcuirtear é ar fáil go lárnach mar a dhéantar anseo in Éirinn nó an ndéantar é a tharmligean go dtí na comhairlí áitiúla nó a leithéid sin? Tá córais dhifriúla i bhfeidhm ag braith ar áit na teanga ar an gcuraclaim agus ag braith ar na roghanna eile a bhíonn ag na daltaí suas go dtí leibhéil na sraithe sóisearaí sna dlínsí eile sin. Bíonn conarthaí éagsúla acu go minic nuair a théann siad ar aghaidh ina gcuid oideachais go dtí go bhfágann siad an córas iar-bhunscolaíochta.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Ceart go leor. Tuigim é sin agus bhí a fhios agam go raibh dlínsí eile ina bhfuil a leithéid de dhíolúintí ann. Táimid tar éis cuid mhaith athbhreithnithe a dhéanamh ar ár gcóras le blianta beaga anuas agus bheinn ag súil gur bhunaíomar na hathruithe sin ar an gcleachtas is fearr idirnáisiúnta. An cheist atá agam nó an rud atá mé ag iarraidh fáil amach ná cá háit ina bhfuil an cleachtas is fearr idirnáisiúnta agus ar bhunaíomar an múnla atá againn ar an múnla sin?

Ms Eibhlín Ní Scannláin

Tugadh san áireamh na cuspóirí atá ann go hidirnáisiúnta agus bhí tagairt i dtuarascáil na cigireachta féin ar an gcóras a bhain le cleachtais maidir le díolúintí a chur i bhfeidhm sna scoileanna. Foilsíodh é i 2018 agus bhí tagairtí ar leith ann don chóras i Sasana agus chomh maith le sin sna Stáit Aontaithe. Caithfear i gcónaí teacht ar ais chuig an gcás uathúil atá againn anseo, más maith linn é sin a thabhairt air. Tá comhthéacs ar leith againn anseo agus bhí tuarascáil na cigireachta mar bhonn eolais don chomhairliúcháin leathan a tharla ag an bpointe sin. Mar atá luaite ag an Aire, bhí gá le tuairimí éagsúla a chur san áireamh maidir leis an tréimhse dhá bhliana, le cothromaíocht sa chur chuige a fháil agus chun tacú leis an nGaeilge, ach ag an am céanna a chinntiú go bhfreastalaítear ar riachtanais na leanaí atá ag dul tríd an gcóras scolaíochta agus chun cabhrú leo an chuid is fearr a bhaint amach ina gcuid oideachais.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Aontaím le sin go léir agus is cinnte gur cás uathúil é seo atá an-dhifriúil ó chúrsaí i Sasana agus sna Stáit Aontaithe. Tá sé sin fíor cinnte. Is teanga mionlaigh í an Ghaeilge ach tá ról lárnach aici in oideachas an Stáit. É sin ráite, tá intinn an linbh mar an gcéanna i ngach áit. Ba chóir go mbeadh cuid mhaith den slí a dhéantar anailís nó measúnú ar chumas na leanaí sách cosúil ar fud an domhain. Nuair a cumadh an córas i 2019, ar phlé an Roinn le taithí idirnáisiúnta maidir le conas measúnú a dhéanamh?

Ms Eibhlín Ní Scannláin

Bhí, cinnte. B’fhéidir go mbeadh Anne Tansey in ann labhairt ar sin níos déanaí. Féachadh ar conas mar a dhéantar tástálacha agus a leithéid. Mar is eol don Teachta, bhí plé ag an am sin ar an deichiú peircintíl a bheith in úsáid mar phointe chun deacrachtaí a aithint. Is dócha gur pointe é sin atá aitheanta go hidirnáisiúnta agus labhróidh Anne tuilleadh faoi sin. Cuireadh na rudaí sin san áireamh san athbhreithniú a rinneadh i 2019.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Sin an méid uaimse. Is ábhar deacair agus casta é ach tá sé tábhachtach go mbeadh an t-eolas idirnáisiúnta is fearr againn nuair atá cinntí cosúil leis an gceann seo á dhéanamh.

Senator Seán Kyne

Gabh mo leithscéal go raibh mé déanach. Bhíomar ag vótáil sa tSeanad ach léigh mé an ráiteas tosaigh ar maidin. Dúirt an tAire go mbeidh leibhéil monatóireacht trí cigireacht i gceist le cinntiú go bhfuil na ciorcláin ag feidhmiú mar a bhí sé beartaithe. Cén sort monatóireacht a bhí ar siúl ag an Roinn roimhe seo ar ábhar na díolúine? An rud nua é seo nó an raibh monatóireacht á dhéanamh roimhe seo?

Deputy Norma Foley

In terms of the monitoring, I want to be very clear. When the inspectorate, whose representatives are more at liberty here to give the detail, visits a school, whether for a subject inspection, a whole-school evaluation, WSC, or whatever type of inspection, the data on exemptions being provided are available to its officials and are then obviously available within the Department. It is important there is oversight of this. I reiterate that this is a substantial body of work undertaken by the schools, but we have moved now to a new model where there is less emphasis on the diagnostic, which I think is a good thing. It is important we move away from that and look at the holistic experience of the child or young person in school and at their ability to access the curriculum and the school. While we are talking today about exemptions, it is very important to say we have 1 million children and young people in our school system, 1.9% of whom avail of an exemption at primary level and approximately 10% of whom access an exemption at post-primary level. These figures are indicative of the excellent work taking place within our schools. For the vast majority of students Irish is a source of significant joy and achievement with many of them, more than 82%, taking it at higher level in the leaving certificate, but there will always be a cohort, whatever their challenge might be in terms of education, for whom the language proves to be a difficulty. It is a small cohort of students, but if it impinges on their ability to access the greater and broader curriculum, we will always have to have this opportunity of exemptions being made available. Again, these exemptions are long-standing in education in terms of the Irish language.

Deputy Seán Kyne

Aontaím leis an Aire go bhfuil gá le díolúintí do pháistí le riachtanais speisialta agus cásanna mar sin. Ó thaobh na bhfigiúirí a tugadh, tá 1.9% a fhaigheann díolúintí sa bhunscoil a ardaíonn go dtí 10% ag an dara leibhéil. Cén fáth a cheapann an tAire go bhfuil ardú idir an bhunscoil agus an mheánscoil? Is ardú suntasach é, agus cé go bhfuilimid ag caint ar méid sách beag, ag an am céanna tá ardú sort mór ansin idir 1.9% agus 10%.

Deputy Norma Foley

In fairness, when looking at that increase, we are talking about 1.9% at primary level, and when compared to 2017, when it was at 3.3%, it is a significant decrease at primary level. Compared with the figures from 2017 at post-primary level, they are almost static at 10.5% currently and 9.4% in 2017. We are seeing changes in the education system too, which we need to acknowledge. We are seeing an increase in the number of students coming from abroad and 25% of our student population are presenting with special educational needs.

As a result of that knowledge, we are obviously going to see an increase. Looking at what is available at primary and post-primary levels, we can see that the demographics are moving towards post-primary with an increase in the number of students there, as opposed to what we have at primary level.

Senator Seán Kyne

Deirtear i gCiorclán 0054/2022, in alt 2.2.2(iii), "De ghnáth, ba cheart daltaí a bhaineann leas as díolúine faoin gcatagóir seo a spreagadh chun dul i ngleic le staidéar ar an nGaeilge ó bhéal chomh fada agus is féidir". An bhfuil figiúirí ag an Roinn maidir leis sin? B'fhéidir gur rud nua é seo i gcomparáid leis an gciorclán ó 2019. Cén chaoi a n-oibreoidh sé sin laistigh de rang? An bhfuil daltaí ag fáil díolúine ón staidéar nó ón teastas? Tá siad ag fáil díolúine ó staidéar na Gaeilge ach tá an Roinn ag rá gur cheart do chuid acu leanúint ar aghaidh agus Gaeilge a fhoghlaim chun go mbeadh siad in ann í a labhairt. Sin an prionsabal atá leagtha amach sa chiorclán, ach cén chaoi a n-oibreoidh sé sin laistigh den rang?

Deputy Norma Foley

That is the aidhm. That is the objective, in as far as possible if the student can access that. If an exemption has been given previously, it has been given on the strength of two years of intervention and working with the student. There is an ultimate recognition that the student is particularly challenged in this area and that it is creating certain difficulties in not allowing them to access that subject or perhaps even the wider curriculum. That is when that decision is made. However, every effort is made, recognising that individual students have individual needs, to allow the student to participate in a class as far as possible. It is probably much easier to do that at primary level than at post-primary. For example, the child could be involved in all the activities in the class. At post-primary level, should the student wish, they can be part of everything that is happening in the class but need not necessarily present for the exam or whatever the examination aspect of it is. There are also students who do not have an exemption in any subject, who will study a subject to leaving certificate level but on the day of the exam can choose not to turn in for it. That is the case whether they have an exemption or otherwise. That is not unique to Irish. That is across a variety of subjects. They study it but there is no compulsion on them actually to take the exam at the end of the day. The objective and the agenda is for students with an exemption to be part of the class, should they be in a position to access it.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Gabh mo leithscéal go raibh mé déanach. Ba mhaith liom soiléiriú ó thaobh COGG de. An bhfuilimid ag cur ceisteanna orthu fós?

Chairman

Níl, mar caithfidh an tAire imeacht ag a trí a chlog. Beidh deis againn déileáil leis an Aire agus ansin casfaimid ar an dream eile.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Go raibh maith agat. Ní raibh mé ach ag lorg soiléirithe. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire agus an fhoireann uilig. Is iontach go bhfuilimid anseo gan maisc agus go bhfuilimid in ann a bheith ag cíoradh na rudaí seo mar tá siad thar a bheith tábhachtach. Tá óráid tosaigh an Aire léite agam. Ba mhaith liom a bheith dearfach, ar dtús báire, agus comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis na finnéithe mar gheall ar an bpolasaí don oideachas Gaeltachta, rud thar a bheith dearfach. Tá éacht déanta ag an Roinn agus tá sé sin ag leanúint ar aghaidh. Tá éacht déanta go teoiriciúil ar aon nós agus ba mhaith liom na torthaí a fheiceáil. Tá ceist shimplí agam maidir leis an bpolasaí eile atá á fhorbairt ag an Roinn maidir le hoideachas trí Ghaeilge taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. B'fhéidir go mbeidh na finnéithe in ann soiléiriú a thabhairt dom maidir le stádas an pholasaí sin.

Bhí sraith cruinnithe againn maidir le córas na ndíolúintí agus saineolaithe éagsúla os ár gcomhair. Ina measc bhí an tOllamh Pádraig Ó Duibhir, a chur in iúl go bhfuil fadhb ollmhór ann ó thaobh líon na ndíolúintí. Nuair a tháinig sé os ár gcomhair, chuir sé in iúl an fhigiúir a luaigh an tAire, sé sin, thart ar 10.5%, ach an rud is suntasaí a dúirt sé ná gur tháinig fás 60% ar an bhfigiúir sin idir 2016 agus 2021, agus fás 25% idir 2019 agus 2021. Luaigh an tAire go raibh exponential growth, fás as cuimse, sa tacaíocht atá ar fáil, ach ag an am céanna tá fás as cuimse i líon na ndíolúintí. Iarraim ar an Aire díriú isteach air sin mar tá rud amháin ag teacht salach ar an rud eile.

Tá mé ar an gcoiste seo ó 2016 agus an rud a léimeann amach gach uair ná gurb í an Ghaeilge an fhadhb, seachas deis nó bronntanas. Bíonn muid ag caint i gcónaí faoin nGaeilge sa chomhthéacs gur fadhb í, seachas rud iontach agus rud lena mbaineann dualgais faoin reachtaíocht os rud é gur teanga náisiúnta í. Chomh maith leis sin, is rud thar a bheith torthúil é a bheith dhátheangach. Sin comhthéacs mo cheiste. Cén fáth an bhfuilimid fós ag díriú isteach ar an nGaeilge mar fhadhb, seachas mar dheis iontach? Dúirt an tAire go bhfuil neart tacaíochtaí i gceist agus go bhfuil próiseas dhá bhliain ann. B'fhéidir go bhfuil mé mícheart ach níor chuala mé aon sonraí ó na daoine a bhí os ár gcomhair maidir leis sin. An rud a bhí á rá ag na príomhoidí ná go raibh dualgas orthu, go raibh sé tromchúiseach agus thar a bheith deacair. Dúirt siad go raibh gasúir ag fáil díolúintí agus nach raibh siad ag glacadh páirt in aon rud, ina suí ansin agus ag rá go raibh díolúine acu ón nGaeilge agus nach raibh gá dóibh a bheith páirteach in aon rud. Tá mo dhóthain ráite agam ag an bpointe seo. Tiocfaidh mé ar ais. Ba mhaith liom freagra ón Aire maidir leis an bpolasaí don oideachas taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht agus ó thaobh an méid atá cloiste againne sa tsraith cruinnithe ag teacht salach ar an méid atá cloiste againn ón Roinn inniu.

Deputy Norma Foley

The policy for outside the Gaeltacht areas is progressing and it will go to public consultation before the end of this week. That is important. The Deputy referred to daoine ag féachaint ar an nGaelainn mar fhadhb, looking at Irish as a problem as opposed to a gift or a positive. I want to be very clear. Within the Department, we look upon it as integral to our identity and our culture. As I have already articulated, considerable work is being done in the Department to advance it, whether the Gaeltacht education policy or the new policy for Irish medium education outside the Gaeltacht. Another initiative that I am especially supportive of is supporting partial immersion for Gaeilge from early years to primary and on to post-primary. That pilot is a very important one because there will be enormous learning from it and opportunities to go beyond that. The representatives from COGG will speak to its agenda, the work it is doing, teacher supports and all that. The policy is going to public consultation before the end of the week.

The Deputy asked why there is such an increase in the number of students with exemptions. I referenced this previously. If we look at where we were in the 1990s, in 1998 we had 104 special education teachers in our system and 229 special needs assistants, SNAs. Today, we have 19,000 special education teachers and 20,000 SNAs.

I only reference those figures to show how far our understanding and appreciation of the entire area of special education has progressed. That progression has been transformative with regard to equality of opportunity and access for many students. The emphasis is on ensuring that the needs of students will be met as far as possible to accommodate them in mainstream. That is what we are achieving with regard to special classes that have been created and so on. That is why we are seeing such an increase.

We are also seeing in 2022 that 25% of students identify with special educational needs, which is far in excess of what would have been the case, to our knowledge, five or ten years ago. In recognition of that, some 27% of the Department of Education's budget is now expended in the area of special education. The emphasis on special education is to ensure that students and young people get the opportunity to access school and the curriculum to the best of their ability-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Nílimid ag caint go ginearálta. Glacaim leis go bhfuil dul chun cinn suntasach déanta ag an Roinn. Tá mé ag díriú isteach ar chóras na ndíolúintí ach go háirithe agus an fás as cuimse atá tagtha air in ainneoin an méid tacaíochta atá ar fáil. Bheinn ag súil go mbeadh níos lú díolúintí i gceist de bharr go bhfuil an méid sin tacaíochta ann anois. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an t-am srianta.

Deputy Norma Foley

With regard to the increase in the number of students applying for or receiving exemptions, we have an increase in the number of students who are coming from abroad and a significant increase in the number of students who are presenting with a special educational need. Therefore, in acknowledgement of that, we will see an element of increase in the exemptions. We have also introduced a system through which all of these students, especially young people with special educational needs, work over a two-year period. Verifiable evidence will be part of their education profile. Systematic interventions will be made especially with regard to special education teachers, additional resources and working with, supporting and encouraging these students.

However, there comes a point when a judgment will be made. It is important that the judgment be made within the school and that we have moved away from the diagnostic element because the teachers, principals and SNAs are the ones dealing with this every day. I cannot see how exemptions could not increase if we have an increase in the number of students who are presenting with special educational needs and students coming from abroad. In the first instance, the exemption was for students coming from abroad, of whom even more have been coming from a variety of countries in the past number of years. A significant number of students have also come from Ukraine in the past number of months. Obviously one will impact the other, notwithstanding the work schools will do to ensure that students are supported through the Irish language.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Fáiltím roimh fhógra an Aire go mbeidh an polasaí ag dul amach mar theachtaireacht roimh dheireadh na seachtaine. Cén uair a fheicfimid an polasaí? Cathain a bheidh an polasaí don Ghaeilge taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht foilsithe? Tuigim go bhfuil níos mó daoine ag teacht chun cinn le riachtanais speisialta. Ní chreidim nach raibh siad ann roimhe seo. Is dócha go bhfuil siad in ann teacht chun cinn agus tacaíocht a fháil agus go bhfuil daoine ag teacht ó thar lear freisin. Ní féidir na fíricí sin a shéanadh ach, dar leis na saineolaithe - tá athrá i gceist ann - a tháinig os ár gcomhair, tá an t-ardú róshuntasach ó thaobh líon na ndíolúintí. Dar leo, maidir leis an gciorclán a cuireadh i gcrích, bhí an próiseas comhairliúcháin lochtach amach is amach. Ní bheidh an Roinn ag aontú leis sin ach is é seo an méid atá cloiste againn le cúpla seachtain anuas. Fáiltím roimh an monatóireacht agus roimh an dá bhliain roimh aon chinneadh. Níor chuala mé é sin go dtí seo agus beidh mé ag dul ar ais, le cabhair ón gCathaoirleach, maidir leis an dá bhliain atá i gceist sula ndéantar aon chinneadh maidir le díolúine a thabhairt. Is é an rud eile a tháinig chun cinn le linn na gcruinnithe, áfach, ná an méid daltaí a fhaigheann díolúine ó thaobh na Gaeilge de ach a bhfuil ag leanúint ar aghaidh leis an nGearmáinis, leis an bhFraincis agus le teangacha eile, gan fadhb ar bith. Tá teip i gceist ann ó thaobh an Ghaeilge ó bhéal a chur chun cinn, mar a rinne an Teachta Ó Cuív pointe air an tseachtain seo caite, seachas Gaeilge scríofa nó leite. Críochnóidh mé leis sin. Tá neart eile le rá agam ach tá a fhios agam go bhfuil daoine eile ag iarraidh teacht isteach.

Deputy Norma Foley

Everybody who comes before a committee will have their own breadth of vision and experience. What I will say is that I have an obligation to balance the needs of all of the children and young people in the education system. We have actually seen a decrease in exemptions at primary school level to 1.9% compared to 3.3% in 2017. At post-primary level, we are talking about 9.4% in 2017 and 10.5% now. I do not see the point the Deputy is making. I wish to acknowledge the excellent work of this committee. We have a shared agenda. It is absolutely my agenda to promote and enhance the Irish language but I have a duty of care to students who find it especially difficult or challenging. I have to be mindful of the voice of the student who comes to me with their experience. I have to be mindful of the Ombudsman for Children who comes to us and puts the experience of children who are not receiving exemptions in the annual report. There is a view that-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tá an tuarascáil léite go léir agam. Níl mé ag easaontú leis an Aire ach tá ceisteanna curtha agam uirthi maidir leis an bpolasaí. Cén uair a fhoilseofar an polasaí? Cad faoi na daltaí a leanann ar aghaidh ag foghlaim na dteangacha eile gan aon fhadhb nach bhfuil in ann an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim?

Deputy Norma Foley

It will go to public consultation. I cannot give the Deputy the exact date of when it will be completed but it is a very positive step forward that it will go to public consultation. With regard to students taking another language, I wish to be very clear that if it has been identified after a series of interventions that a student cannot access the Irish language, it is identifiable. I cannot argue with that. A series of interventions will have been made and all that can be done will have been done to ensure the student can access the language. Exemptions are given to the limited, small number of students who cannot do so. I know that officials from NEPS are not allowed to speak at this point but will be speaking in the next session. They will be able to give the committee much further detail on the impact an exemption can have on a student, including on the student's ability to access the greater impact within the school. The cohort of students that receive an exemption is limited. It would not be right or acceptable to limit that cohort's opportunity to access any other part of the curriculum. That is not in the student or child's best interest. If the student or child feels that he or she can access some other aspect of the curriculum, I should allow and facilitate it because, at the end of the day, my obligation is to ensure that every student, child and young person gets the maximum opportunity in school and that we are supporting access to the widest curriculum. It would not be right for me to seek to prohibit them from accessing any particular subject simply because they have received an exemption in the Irish language. I do not think that is right or what we should be about in education.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Ní hí sin an cheist. Is í an cheist ná cén chaoi a bhfuil na daltaí sin in ann leanúint ar aghaidh ag foghlaim teangacha eile seachas an Ghaeilge? An dtuigeann an tAire an pointe sin? Má tá na daltaí in ann teangacha eile a fhoghlaim, cén fáth nach bhfuil siad in ann an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim? An dtuigeann sí an pointe atá á dhéanamh agam?

Deputy Norma Foley

I absolutely understand the point the Deputy is making. The point that I am making is that in the education system, we do all we can to encourage, support and motivate the students in the Irish language. If they have a particular challenge, which is often identified by themselves, their parents or guardians and if we have worked with them over a considerable length of time and introduced a number of interventions which are still not working and their ability to access the greater curriculum is inhibited, the exemption is awarded.

I say again that we have 1 million students in the system. Some 1.9% of them have an exemption at primary level and in and around 10% have an exemption at post-primary level. That is notwithstanding the fact that 82% of our students take leaving certificate Irish and almost 50% of them do so at higher level. Once they get that exemption in Irish, if they want to try another language, another subject, another whatever within the curriculum – to be fair this is my view and I do not have the statistics in terms of the numbers – it behoves us as educationalists to allow them to access the curriculum and we do all we can to support them in the first instance to access Irish. If that is not possible for a small cohort of them we continue to work with them to allow them to fulfil their educational experience to the widest extent possible and allow them to access any other aspect of the courses or curriculums they wish.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Bheadh na figiúirí sin thar a bheith suimiúil.

Chairman

An bhfuil aon am breise ag an Aire mar tá cúigear eile ag iarraidh ceisteanna a chur?

Deputy Norma Foley

Tá brón orm ach tá cruinniú eile agam.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Ba mhaith liom rud amháin a rá. D'fhéadfaí staidéar a thionscain a dhéanfadh scrúdú ar an gcúis nach féidir le daoine áirithe an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim ach gur féidir leo teangacha eile a thabhairt leo. D'fhéadfadh sé a fhiosrú céard atá mícheart leis an nGaeilge, le múineadh na Gaeilge nó le curaclam le Gaeilge go bhfuil daoine go héasca in ann teangacha eile a thabhairt leo ach nach bhfuil siad ag tabhairt na Gaeilge leo. An ndéanfaidh an Roinn staidéar ar an gcúis sin?

Chairman

Is féidir an cheist a chur ar NEPS chomh maith, a bheidh os ár gcomhair anois. Beidh ar an Aire teacht ar ais am éigin mar tá a lán ceisteanna ann agus b'fhéidir go mbeidh ceisteanna ar dhíolúintí ón mBéarla nó ón matamaitic chomh maith. Cuirfimid deireadh leis an gcéad chuid den chruinniú agus casfaimid ar na finnéithe atá ag fanacht linn.

Deputy Norma Foley

Is é sin an t-am a tugadh dom. That was the time that was given to me. Tá brón orm.

Chairman

Níl ach go dtí 4.30 p.m. againn agus tá trí ghrúpaí eile. B'fhéidir go mbeidh orainn teacht ar ais chuig an Aire arís má tá an iomarca ceisteanna gan freagraí. Casfaimid ar an ngrúpa eile nuair atá an tAire tar éis imeacht. Cuirfimid an cruinniú ar fionraí ar feadh cúig nóiméid fad is atá daoine ag bogadh timpeall.

Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar fionraí ar 3.03 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 3.05 p.m.

Chairman

Tosóimid arís ag déileáil leis an gceist ceannann céanna a rinneamar déileáil leis agus muid leis an Aire go dtí díreach tar éis 3.00 p.m., an t-am a luaigh sí linne go mbeadh sí in ann fanacht go dtí. Ó thaobh an choiste de, más gá agus má tá ceisteanna breise againn, beimid in ann iad a chur ar aghaidh chuici nó cuireadh eile a thabhairt di teacht ar ais chun críochnú leis an ábhar seo.

Tá súil agam go mbeimid in ann roinnt de na ceisteanna a bhí ag Teachtaí agus Seanadóirí a chur ar na trí dhream atá os ár gcomhair anois. Is iad sin an Chomhairle um Oideachais Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta, COGG, an tSeirbhís Náisiúnta Síceolaíochta Oideachais, NEPS, agus an Chomhairle Náisiúnta um Oideachas Speisialta, NCSE. Tá Jacqueline Ní Fhearghusa agus Donall Ó hAiniféin linn ó COGG, tá John Kearney agus Cathy Connolly anseo ó NCSE, tá Anne Tansey anseo ó NEPS; agus ón Roinn Oideachais tá Martina Mannion, rúnaí cúnta.

Mr. Dónal Ó hAiniféin

Tá an-áthas orm a bheith anseo le Jacqueline le mo thaobh. Is mór againn an spéis, an suim agus an díospóireacht atá ar siúl faoin ábhar seo agus is mór againn an spéis atá léirithe ag an gcoiste san ábhar ríthábhachtach seo. Tá ráiteas le léamh agam atá gairid go leor agus fáilteoidh mé roimh cheisteanna ina dhiaidh. Bunaíodh an Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta faoi fhorálacha Alt 31 den Acht Oideachais 1998 tar éis feachtais a chuir Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, Gaelscoileanna, agus Eagraíocht na Scoileanna Gaeltachta ar bun le go mbeadh sainstruchtúr ann le freastal a dhéanamh ar riachtanais oideachais na scoileanna Gaeltachta agus na scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge. Tá feidhmeanna maidir le múineadh na Gaeilge i scoileanna eile na tíre ag an gcomhairle chomh maith. Baineann ról na comhairle leis an mbunoideachas agus leis an iar-bhunoideachas agus tá trí mhór-réimse oibre againn. Is iad sin soláthar acmhainní teagaisc, seirbhísí taca agus taighde.

Níl baint dhíreach ag feidhmeanna COGG leis na díolúintí ó fhoghlaim na Gaeilge a bhronntar ar scoláirí ar leith sa chóras oideachais. É sin ráite, tá feidhm ag COGG maidir le múineadh na Gaeilge i scoileanna uile na tíre agus ar an mbonn sin, ba mhaith le COGG go mbeadh deis ag gach dalta sa chóras oideachais, idir bhunscoileanna agus iar-bhunscoileanna, an Ghaeilge, teanga dúchais na tíre, a fhoghlaim ag leibhéal atá oiriúnach dá gcumas féin.

Cuireann COGG go suntasach gach uile bhliain le líon na n-acmhainní teagaisc agus foghlama chun tacú le teagasc agus foghlaim trí Ghaeilge agus teagasc na Gaeilge féin. Tá sé i gceist againn feachtas poiblíochta a chur ar bun sa bhliain atá amach romhainn chun na hacmhainní teagaisc sin a roinnt le scoileanna a mhúineann trí mheán an Bhéarla ar bhealach níos éifeachtaí agus níos feiceálaí. Anuas air sin, ba mhaith le COGG tacú le scoileanna a iompaíonn ó a bheith ag teagasc trí mheán an Bhéarla chuig scoileanna a dhéanann an teagasc trí mheán na Gaeilge. Cuireann COGG soláthar acmhainní teagaisc ar fáil do scoileanna a bhfuil an rogha seo déanta acu agus is féidir tacaíocht forbairt ghairmiúil a thabhairt freisin ar straitéisí éifeachtacha don tumoideachas ónár n-oifigigh oideachais a bhfuil saineolas acu sa réimse seo.

Tá COGG ag tacú freisin leis an tionscadal foghlaim comhtháite ábhar agus teanga, FCÁT, nó content and language integrated learning, CLIL, na Roinne Oideachais, áit a mhúintear ábhar nó modúl trí mheán na Gaeilge ar feadh achair áirithe. Is mian le COGG buntáistí an dátheangachais agus an ilteangachais a roinnt ar thuismitheoirí agus ar a bpáistí, chomh maith le múinteoirí agus le hoideachasóirí eile. Tá comhpháirtíochtaí láidre cothaithe ag COGG le Teangacha Iar-bhunscoile Éireann, PPLI, le blianta beaga anuas chun buntáistí foghlaim teangacha a chur chun cinn go ginearálta i measc mhuintir na hÉireann. Tá tacaíochtaí cruthaithe ag COGG le bronnadh ar scoileanna Gaeltachta ina bhfuil páistí de chuid na hÚcráine chun tacú leo agus iad ag iarraidh na critéir theanga-bhunaithe a chur i bhfeidhm agus ar scoileanna a mhúineann trí mheán an Bhéarla chun tacú leo maidir le múineadh na Gaeilge do pháistí na hÚcráine.

Tá COGG ag maoiniú forbairtí suntasacha teicneolaíochta i gColáiste na Tríonóide, áit a bhfuil meitheal de thaighdeoirí agus lucht teicneolaíochta ag obair ar bhealaí cumarsáide trí Ghaeilge a sholáthar do pháistí agus do dhaoine fásta sa todhchaí nach bhfuil cumas urlabhra acu de bharr uathachais nó riachtanais bhreise oideachais eile. Leanfar leis na forbairtí seo le maoiniú COGG as seo go ceann cúig bliana agus beidh súil ag COGG agus ag Coláiste na Tríonóide an t-eolas faoin teicneolaíocht nua a roinnt ar na scoileanna agus ar oideachasóirí de réir a chéile.

Tá COGG ag obair i gcomhar leis an eagraíocht Gaeloideachas ar chomhdháil ar riachtanais speisialta oideachais a eagrú ar an 24 Samhain chun deis a thabhairt do mhúinteoirí agus d’oideachasóirí eile teacht le chéile chun éisteacht le saineolaithe agus plé a dhéanamh ar conas is fearr freastal ar pháistí a bhfuil riachtanais bhreise oideachais acu i suíomh an tumoideachais. Cuirfear an t-eolas is déanaí maidir le freastal ar riachtanais speisialta oideachais trí mheán na Gaeilge faoi bhráid na scoileanna chun tacú leo agus iad ag tacú le páistí agus tuismitheoirí ar raon leathan de cheisteanna sainiúla.

Déanann COGG maoiniú ar raon taighde sna hollscoileanna agus sna hinstitiúidí tríú leibhéal a bhaineann le riachtanais speisialta oideachais i scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge agus Gaeltachta. Tá an fhreagracht nó dualgas ar COGG, mar cheann de phointí gnímh nó cholúin tacaíochta an pholasaí don oideachas Gaeltachta agus i gcomhar le NEPS, an Roinn Sláinte agus an NCSE, treoir phraiticiúil a fhorbairt “maidir le tacaíocht do riachtanais dhátheangacha leanaí a bhfuil riachtanais speisialta oideachais acu i limistéir Ghaeltachta agus an treoir a scaipeadh i measc na foirne gairmiúla agus paraghairmiúla i limistéir Ghaeltachta.”

Anuas air sin, i gcomhar leis na comhpháirtithe thuasluaite, beidh feidhm ar COGG “méadú ar an bhfeasacht i measc na bhfoirne gairmiúla agus paraghairmiúla maidir leis an litríocht a thacaíonn le buntáistí intleachtúla, labhartha agus gairme an dátheangachais agus go háirithe, maidir le riachtanais dhátheangacha ar leith na ndaltaí a bhfuil riachtanais speisialta oideachais acu i gcomhthéacsanna Gaeltachta.” Cé go mbaineann an treoir phraiticiúil a ndéantar tagairt di sa pholasaí do chomhthéacs na Gaeltachta, táthar ag súil leis go mbeidh feidhm inaistrithe aici freisin i gcomhthéacs an Ghaeloideachais lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht.

Tá COGG tiomnaithe don tseirbhís is fearr a sholáthar do scoileanna a mhúineann trí mheán na Gaeilge agus do mhúineadh na Gaeilge i scoileanna na tíre i gcoitinne, mar a bhaineann sé le soláthar acmhainní teagaisc agus téacsleabhair, seirbhísí taca do scoileanna agus raon taighde ar cheisteanna sainiúla a bhaineann le hearnáil na Gaelscolaíochta agus na Gaeltachta agus múineadh na teanga sna scoileanna uile.

Chairman

An bhfuil Mr. Kearney nó Ms Connolly at tabhairt an ráitis thosaigh thar cheann an NCSE?

Ms Cathy Connolly

An bhfuil an Cathaoirleach ag iarraidh an ráitis fhada nó an achoimre?

Chairman

An ceann gairid más féidir. Beidh an ráiteas iomlán ar an suíomh Idirlín.

Ms Cathy Connolly

An bhfuil an ráiteas iomlán faighte ag an gcoiste?

Chairman

Tá leathanach amháin faighte againn. Iarraim ar Ms Connolly an ráiteas a chur ar aghaidh arís agus cuirfimid suas ar líne é.

Mr. John Kearney

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le baill an chomhchoiste as ucht an cuireadh teacht agus labhairt inniu. Tacaíonn an NCSE le seirbhísí oideachais do dhaoine óga agus do dhaltaí a bhfuil riachtanais speisialta acu. Cuirimid comhairle ar fáil don Aire Oideachais i leith chúrsaí oideachais speisialta. Is é fócas ár dtacaíochtaí d’fhoghlaimeoirí ná cleachtas ionchuimsitheach a chumasú i scoileanna trí mheán an Bhéarla agus na Gaelscolaíochta a dhíríonn ar chur chuige bunaithe ar láidreacht agus atá leabaithe sa nós go bhfuil guth an dalta lárnach. Is cinnte go bhfuil cumas ag daltaí le riachtanais speisialta an Ghaeilge a shealbhú ag a leibhéal féin. Aithnítear go bhfuil tuairim is 10% de dhaltaí le diagnóis riachtanas oideachas speisialta ag freastal ar bhunscoileanna an tumoideachais. É sin ráite, caithfear a aithint go mbíonn daltaí ag streachailt go cognaíoch agus go mothúchánach le hualach oibre scoile. Tacaíonn Ciorclán 55/22 leis na daltaí seo. Bíonn gaol láidir agus aithne dhomhain ag na múinteoirí cuartaíochta ar na daltaí atá faoina gcúram, go minic ón am a bheirtear iad. Tacaíonn siad le halt 2.2.3 de Chiorclán 55/22.

Chairman

Tá sé oscailte roimh bhaill ceisteanna a chur.

Deputy Joe McHugh

Tá mé fíorbhuíoch as ucht an tseans labhairt ag an gcéad phointe. Tá cruinniú agamsa ar 3.30 p.m. Gabhaim leithscéal leis an gCathaoirleach. Cuirim fáilte roimh na daoine uile atá anseo inniu. Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach, le hEugene Ó Cruadhlaoich agus leis an bhfoireann uile fá choinne na sároibre atá déanta ar an ábhar seo. Tá sé iontach tábhachtach. Bhí siad ag obair go dian thar na seachtainí a chuaigh thart agus tá mé fíorbhuíoch faoi sin. Bhí an ceart ag Dónal Ó hAiniféin san óráid a thug sé. Tá taithí agus saineolas ag COGG go nádúrtha trí na scoileanna a bhíonn ag múineadh go hiomlán trí Ghaeilge ach tá suim aige fosta sna scoileanna Béarla agus tá sé sin iontach dearfach. Tá an óráid atá ag teacht amach inniu iontach tiomanta agus inspioráideach fá choinne na ndaoine sa rannóg Bhéarla fosta. Dá mbeadh aon bhealach ann fá choinne comhairliúcháin nó díospóireachta nó cainte faoi sin, bheadh sé sin iontach tábhachtach. Is cinnte go bhfuil na hionadaithe páirteach as na páirtithe leasmhara éagsúla agus as an gcomhrá i gcónaí ach tá deiseanna ann ar son na ndaoine atá taobh amuigh den churaclam, ní hamháin sna bunscoileanna ach sna meánscoileanna fosta.

Maidir leis na díolúintí, tá na daoine uile atá taobh amuigh sna meánscoileanna agus sna bunscoileanna ag streachailt. Tá mise ag smaoineamh faoi na daoine leis na dúshláin speisialta agus tá suim acu sa stair, i stair na teanga, san oidhreacht agus sna rudaí cultúrtha. Is í an cheist a bhí agam ar an Aire atá sí ar shiúl anois ná ceist maidir le spás nó deiseanna fá choinne díospóireachta, comhairle nó cainte faoin spás sa churaclam an tsraith shóisearach ar son stair na teanga, agus na rudaí stairiúla, oidhreachta agus cultúrtha fosta. B'fhéidir go mbeidh seans ann amach anseo fá choinne sin. Tá mise ag smaoineamh faoi na tuismitheoirí ó Éirinn agus ó na tíortha eile fosta a bhfuil suim acu i bhfoghlaim na rudaí cultúrtha agus oidhreachta sa tír seo.

I apologise for having to leave. I thank Dónal Ó hAiniféin and his team for being here today. I thank him not just for his contribution here today but also for the work he and his team have done down through the years. In addition to their purposes, roles and responsibilities around Gaelscoileanna agus Gaelcholáistí, they have an interest in trying to help English-medium schools to try to find a fit on behalf of the Irish language. I thank Mr. Kearney and his team at the NCSE and Ms Tansey for all the work they do. The people who get exemptions do not wish to walk away from all things Irish or from the culture or history. There are third level courses, such as one in Coleraine that many teachers did down through the years, that involve Irish folklore studies, logainmneacha and local history connections.

With regard to all of those people who have taken exemptions for the simple reason that they are struggling with na rudaí cumarsáide leis an teanga, and they are struggling with that aspect of the curriculum, we are honour-bound and have a duty agus tá an dualgas orainn uilig to those students from different countries, be they from Ukraine, the United States of America, or from any other part of the world who are coming into this country. They want to learn all things Irish, about our heritage, about who we are as a people, about the townland in which they live, what it means, and what the old Irish name of it prior to it being anglicised.

There is no opportunity for all of us to get our heads together, and this was a question I had for the Minister, mar go bhfuil rudaí solúbtha sa churaclaim. We have flexibility in the curriculum to introduce a history of the Irish language, or call it what one wants, to incorporate some form of connection with our Irish heritage through the curriculum in the junior certificate for those students who are coming from primary school who may have had the exemptions and who will have exemptions in secondary school. The parents and students I speak to who have these exemptions say they still want to learn, to know and gain an insight into our heritage, who we are as a people and as a country, what their townland means, what their local heritage is, na rudaí oidhreachta agus áitiúla, an bhrí atá acu, and to understand what it means to them. There is a flexibility in the junior certificate curriculum. This is not a question I put today but we have to create a space for the conversation to ask if there is room in the junior certificate for the history of the Irish language, to find out more about that in order to facilitate the people who have to avail of the exemption, for one reason or another. Is é sin an dóigh chun tabhairt faoi sin.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach arís faoi achan rud atá déanta aige thar na blianta agus as a dhíograis agus a shár-obair fosta.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Gabhaim buíochas lenár n-aíonna as na ráitis tosaigh. Tá sé ráite go soiléir ag Dónal Ó hAiniféin nach bhfuil baint dhíreach ag feidhmeannaigh de chuid na Comhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta, COGG, leis na díolúintí ó fhoghlaim na Gaeilge. Agus é sin ráite, tá feidhm ag COGG maidir le múineadh na Gaeilge i scoileanna uile na tíre agus dualgas ar COGG tacaíocht nó comhairle a chur ar fáil chun daltaí a chumasú chun an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim.

Cad é an taithí atá ag COGG ó thaobh na ndíolúintí? Dar leis na saineolaithe atá tagtha os ár gcomhair - ní mór dom a rá nach bhfuil an tAire ag aontú leis seo - go bhfuil ardú suntasach tagtha ar líon na ndíolúintí. Maidir le cumas daltaí éagsúla teangacha eile a fhoghlaim, tá cur síos déanta ag COGG anseo maidir le maoiniú i dtaobh taighde sna hollscoileanna. An bhfuil aon taighde déanta maidir leis an gceist sin?

Mr. Dónal Ó hAiniféin

Gan dabht, ní thiocfaidh sé mar nuacht chuig éinne go n-aontaíonn COGG go hiomlán leis na saineolaithe atá luaite ag an Teachta roimhe seo, agus leis na ceardchumainn a luadh maidir le ceist na ndíolúintí ag an mbunleibhéal, go háirithe, gan baint a bheith acu, i ndáiríre, le hábhair ag an mbunleibhéal.

Is é an stair a bhaineann leis na díolúintí ná go dtéann siad siar i bhfad. Is í an aidhm a bhí leo nuair a cuireadh na ciorcláin is déanaí amach ná gur rudaí annamha agus eisceachtúla a bheadh iontu. Níl siad chomh hannamh is chomh heisceachtúil anois nuair a bhreathnaítear ar na figiúirí. Tá an comhrá seo agus an spéis atá léirithe ag an gcoiste seo thar a bheith tábhachtach mar tá díospóireacht á reáchtáil maidir leis na huimhreacha agus cé chomh cruinn is atá siad, maidir leis na daoine nua atá tagtha isteach sa chóras, anailís ar na huimhreacha, agus an bealach a bhailítear sonraí sa Roinn maidir leis na huimhreacha sin a bhaineann leis na díolúintí. Tá an-spéis againn go háirithe sa chomhrá maidir leis an leithdháileadh ginearálta a thugtar do scoileanna chun freastal ar dhaltaí le riachtanais speisialta, agus na hidirghabhálacha atá le tarlú sa thréimhse dhá bhliain sin sula mbronntar aon díolúine ar dhaltaí. Má chuirim hata príomhoide scoile orm féin i gcomhair tamaillín, tá sé an-deacair ar phríomhoidí a bheith ag dáileadh acmhainní scoile teoranta san oideachas speisialta, nuair a bhreathnaímid ar chúrsaí uimhearthachta, litearthachta agus cúrsaí teanga, Gaeilge agus Béarla ina measc. Tá sé an-deacair a fheiceáil cá bhfaigheann na scoileanna na hacmhainní chun an idirghabháil leanúnach sin don dá bhliain sin a dhéanamh do na daltaí atá ag streachailt le Gaeilge, agus leis an imní atá ar dhaltaí áirithe le Gaeilge.

D’aontóinn leis na saineolaithe nach ann dá leithéid de rud mar shain-mhíchumas foghlama teanga a bhaineann le Gaeilge ar leith, nó le teanga eile ar leith. Sna dlínsí eile a luadh ó chianaibhín, baineann an díolúine ansin le foghlaim an dara teanga, ní le teanga ar leith nó le gach teanga. Níl a leithéid de dhíolúine againn anseo in Éirinn. Dá mbeadh díolúine againn i gcomhair L2, bheadh gach uile teanga gafa leis seo. Fuaireamar an freagra go soiléir ón Aire nach dteastaíonn uaithi an bac sin a chur ar aon duine. Ní heol dúinne, áfach, go bhfuil aon dúshlán ar leith ag baint le foghlaim agus sealbhú na Gaeilge a dhéanann sé níos déine nó níos deacra é ar dhaltaí.

Go deimhin féin, ní bhaineann an ciorclán seo le Gaelscoileanna ná le scoileanna Gaeltachta. Tá daltaí le huathachas is le gach saghas deacrachtaí agus dúshláin foghlama againn inár scoileanna go léir agus tá siad ag déanamh go rathúil, ach níl an rathúlacht sin líneach. Ó thaobh an oideachais de, ní líne dhíreach atá ann. Bímis thuas seal agus thíos seal, ag teip agus ag foghlaim. Tógann sé sin athléim agus cothaíonn sé teacht aniar sna daltaí. Má táimid ag iarraidh imní nó ard-imní a sheachaint sna daltaí, ní dóigh liom gurb é an bealach chun é sin a dhéanamh ná an rud a chuireann imní orthu a bhaint. Is gá aghaidh a thabhairt ar ár n-imní agus cúnamh a fháil chun an aghaidh sin a thabhairt uirthi, agus tacaíochtaí a fháil chun dul chun cinn a dhéanamh ar bhonn chéimnitheach, ag brath ar chumas an dalta. Tá difreálú i gceist i ngach uile ábhar agus i nGaeilge. Is í an chomhairle a chuir COGG ar an Roinn ná díreach mar atá ráite agam agus í ag teacht leis na saineolaithe a bhí luaite ag an Teachta roimhe seo. Is féidir leis an Roinn glacadh nó diúltú don chomhairle sin.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

An bhfuil aon taighde faoi leith déanta ag COGG maidir le cumas na ndaltaí teangacha eile a fhoghlaim?

Mr. Dónal Ó hAiniféin

I gcomparáid leis an Gaeilge, níl aon taighde déanta. Ag filleadh ar phointe a rinne an Teachta McHugh níos luaithe, bheadh sé suimiúil modúl idirbhliana nó don teastas sóisearach a fhorbairt maidir le hoidhreacht agus stair na teanga, agus mar sin de. Faraor, níl sparán COGG chomh domhain sin gur féidir linn dul amach agus a bheith ag forbairt na modúl seo thar oíche. Glacaim le pointe an Teachta Connolly go mbeadh sé thar a bheith tábhachtach anailís a dhéanamh an bhfuil dúshlán ar leith ag baint leis an teanga. Ní heol dúinn ón taighde atá ann ar na teangacha ag an bpointe seo go bhfuil.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil ach an oiread ach ní saineolaí mé. Le linn dom a bheith ag éisteacht leis an Roinn, tá sí ag déileáil leis an nGaeilge mar ábhar faoi leith, agus díolúintí a bheith i gceist ó thaobh na Gaeilge de, beag beann ar aon teanga eile. Níl ciall ná réasún agus mé ag éisteacht leis sin.

Mr. Dónal Ó hAiniféin

Ba mhaith linn an t-oideachas ionchuimsitheach céanna a bhí mo chairde ag trácht air ansin a chur ar fáil do dhaltaí, an Ghaeilge san áireamh. Is é sin go mbeadh an t-oideachas sin ionchuimsitheach agus ar fáil ag an leibhéal cuí do na daltaí leis na tacaíochtaí cuí. Is beag tacaíocht atá ann maidir le hoideachas speisialta agus le léitheoireacht, mar shampla. Ní heol dom go bhfuil aon aonad léitheoireachta sa tír don Ghaeilge, mar shampla. Tá aonad léitheoireachta Béarla sa tír do dhaltaí a bhfuil deacrachtaí acu leis an léitheoireacht nó le sealbhú na litearthachta acu. Tá aonad speisialta léitheoireachta ann ach ní dóigh liom go bhfuil a leithéid ann sa Ghaeilge go fóill. Tá athruithe móra tagtha ar an gcóras, ámh, agus sílim go bhfuil oscailteacht ann. Tá dul chun cinn déanta ach níor mhaith linn go mbeadh na huimhreacha seo ag fás faoi mar atá siad, go háirithe ag leibhéal na meánscoile.

Tá ceist ansin ag leibhéal na hiarbhunscoile maidir le tráthchlár, cláir ama agus an Ghaeilge a bheith curtha in aghaidh oideachais speisialta, nó tacaíocht fhoghlama mar a thugamar air fadó. Caithfear aghaidh a thabhairt ar an gceist sin.

Chairman

Is féidir leis Roinn teacht isteach má tá sí ag iarraidh é sin a dhéanamh ag an staid seo. Tá roinnt ceisteanna curtha ar COGG ach b'fhéidir go bhfuil an Roinn ag iarraidh teacht isteach orthu freisin.

Ms Martina Mannion

We would appreciate that. I will hand over to my colleague, Ms Tansey, in a couple of minutes. The Minister referenced something really important, that is, the notion that the exemptions are increasing. If we look at what is happening, we see that our student population is moving from primary to post-primary. That is where the demographics are changing. We have talked about the growth in special education. As we have seen, the figures show that 1.9% of our primary school population now have an exemption. While the numbers are higher at post-primary level, they have not changed in recent years. This reflects the movement of children from primary into post-primary. I refer to the demographics rather than the specific children who have exemptions. It also reflects our understanding of special education. It was initially more targeted at primary level but we are now focusing on supporting special education at post-primary level. The Minister gave that early figure of approximately 1,999 but, at the moment, there are more than 2,500 special classes in our schools. Some 1,700 of those are at primary level while there are only 800 at post-primary level, so it is quite clear that the bulk of our special education children are still at primary level. That is changing, however. In recent years, those children have been moving through. It is absolutely appropriate and right that, if those children need to be supported as they move through their post-primary education, the resources and supports follow them.

With regard to some of the comments Mr. Ó hAinféin made about schools having the resources and supports they need to help support these children, we are putting €2.6 billion, or 27% of our Department's entire budget, towards the provision of resources for children with special educational needs. We know and understand that is essential because we have a completely different understanding of special education now than we did five, ten or 20 years ago. It is really important that, when we talk about ensuring that these children can access the entire educational curriculum, we know and understand that we have to put in that level of resources. Ms Tansey may be able to provide some clarity to the committee on some of the other comments.

Ms Anne Tansey

We in NEPS very much value children's opportunity to learn Irish alongside of English in schools. Our psychological service has developed a range of resources to support literacy in both English and Irish. We support the development of literacy skills in the Irish language as well as in the English language. We are also in the process of developing a test, the post-primary assessment and diagnosis test, which will be in both the English and Irish languages. We are supporting schools to identify need early and to respond to intervention in the moment. I am sorry; I have lost my train of thought.

Ms Martina Mannion

Some of the questions were on how we are supporting the children, the challenges of learning Irish as against English and the challenges of second language acquisition and their impact.

Ms Anne Tansey

Perhaps I will talk a little bit about the acquisition of the English language. English is a very opaque language. It is a difficult language to learn. For example, grapheme-phoneme correspondence is more difficult in the English language. For example, consider the words "read" and "read". The two words are spelt in the very same way but are pronounced differently. We call it an opaque language. It is extremely opaque and, for some children, very difficult to learn. Other languages are less opaque. When we have children who are really struggling with the acquisition of skills in the English language to the degree that it is impacting on different parts of their development, we get very concerned. There are children who, after having had access to a response to intervention and support over time, are still struggling with the learning load that is part of their language acquisition and we probably need to consider the impact that learning a second language would have on them.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Táimid ag dul ar ais i gciorcal an t-am uilig. Ní hiad sin na ceisteanna a chuir mé. Glacaim go hiomlán go bhfuil deacrachtaí ag gasúir éagsúla ach ní ghlacaim leis an rud a dúirt Anne Tansey, is é sin, nach féidir díriú isteach ar an nGaeilge má tá fadhbanna ann ó thaobh an Bhéarla de. Ceapaim go bhfuil sé seo lochtach amach is amach. Tá dhá rud á meascadh ag an Roinn anseo. Tá líon beag daltaí a bhfuil sé deacair dóibh teanga a fhoghlaim de bharr cúiseanna éagsúla foghlama ach is é an rud atá tagtha trasna sna cruinnithe uilig agus ón Roinn inniu, agus ón Aire ach go háirithe, ná gurb í an Ghaeilge an fhadhb. Tá sé ráite go soiléir ag Anne Tansey gurb é an Béarla an deacracht agus, má tá an teanga sin deacair, gur chóir an Ghaeilge a chur ar leataobh. Léiríonn sé sin an meon atá anseo.

Críochnóidh mé cé gur mhaith liom leanúint ar aghaidh mar tá sé suimiúil. Ceapaim go bhfuil fadhb déanta den Ghaeilge ó thaobh an mheoin atá léirithe ag an Aire agus ag an Roinn. B'fhéidir go bhfuil mé mícheart. Táim oscailte chun mo mheon a athrú agus is é sin an rud atá ag teacht trasna, go háirithe nuair a dúirt an tAire nach féidir bac a chur ar dhaltaí teangacha eile a fhoghlaim. Ní hé sin atá i gceist agam nó ag aon duine anseo. Léiríonn sé meon ait é sin a rá. Tá an dá eagraíocht anseo ag rá gurb é an réiteach atmaisféar a chothú chun ligean don ghasúr nó don dalta foghlaim ar leibhéal atá cuí don chumas atá aige nó aici, an Ghaeilge san áireamh. Is é sin an rud atá in easnamh. Tá sé ráite go bhfuil méadú thar cuimse tagtha ar an mbuiséad. Tá agus fáiltím roimhe sin ach tá méadú as cuimse tagtha ar líon na ndíolúintí freisin.

Ms Martina Mannion

We feel we have dealt with that issue. There is not such a growth in exemptions when you look at the overall percentage of the student population. It is very important that we reiterate that. We absolutely reassure the committee that the Department of Education does not see Irish as a problem or something to be fixed. We love and support the Irish language. We have policies and processes in place to ensure we support it as best we can. We are dealing with the challenge of trying to support the development and delivery of policy while also supporting our children with special educational needs. What Ms Tansey is referring to is that, because English is the first language of many of our children with special educational needs, which is an opaque language that is difficult to learn, they can be presented with challenges in learning a second language. That is a factual reality. It would not matter if that second language was French, Spanish or something else. It is just a factual reality as to the challenges these children face. When we look at the strategies and initiatives we put in place, what we are talking about is the differentiated curriculum and all of those opportunities the Minister referenced to allow those children to access it.

On the teachers and staff, one third of teachers in the school system now hold posts of responsibility and can assist students in dealing with these challenges. We want to look at exemptions only when that fails to deliver the opportunities to children to access the curriculum. I sincerely reassure everybody on the committee of our absolute commitment to supporting the Irish language. However, we have to recognise the impact on children with special educational needs. What we are talking about is a lived experience.

It is coming to us in the thousands of responses we got to the circular issued in 2019, it has come back through the Ombudsman's office and it has come back through parents. Therefore, we are conscious that even if it is not a true reflection of all the children with special educational needs, there is a cohort of these children for whom all of the best resources, extra teachers, extra SNAs and interventions have failed to assist them to be able to engage with it to the point that they are looking for an exemption. When that happens, we would say that the alternative is that children could have school anxiety and not be able to engage with the school system. That is a real prospect and we have to make sure we do not facilitate that happening. We want to assure the committee that we will do everything we can to avoid that. Where you look at primary level, at 1.9% there are fewer exemptions at that level and it is down to a growth in demographics and in participation in special education at post-primary level.

Chairman

Bheadh mise sásta leis an staidéar nó leis an gcomhairle ina léirítear gur féidir an Ghaeilge a chur ar leataoibh, mar sin atá á dhéanamh, seachas leanúint leis an tacaíocht nó athrú a dhéanamh. Ba mhaith liom an staidéar idirnáisiúnta nó acadúil atá mar bhunús don chinneadh atá ann a fheiscint.

Níl díolúintí ann d'aon ábhar eile. Ní raibh díolúintí ann domsa ag foghlaim Béarla ar scoil; níl siad ann d'aon duine. Tá na finnéithe ag rá go bhfuil an Béarla deacair le foghlaim. Tá sé deacair do pháistí atá tógtha le Gaeilge ach ní bhíonn siad ag lorg díolúintí i nGaelscoileanna nó i scoileanna Gaeltachta. Más sa treo sin a táimid ag dul b'fhéidir gur chóir go mbeadh a leithéid de dhíolúintí ann ach ní hé an bealach chun fadhb a leigheas é a chur ar leataobh.

Tá an ceart ag na finnéithe go bhfuil breis maoinithe agus breis foirne curtha ar fáil chun cuidiú leo atá deacrachtaí foghlama tromchúiseacha acu. Aithníonn gach duine é sin agus tá sé go maith go bhfuil an Roinn tar éis athrú agus dul siar ar roinnt de na cinntí a ghlacadh ach don chuid is mó dóibh, níl, go bhfios domsa, scileanna breise acu chun tabhairt faoin nGaeilge. Tá fadbhanna bunúsacha laistigh den chóras oideachais ó thaobh múinteoirí le Gaeilge, cuiditheoirí agus cúntóirí speisialta chun cuidiú le daltaí atá na fadbhanna nó na deacrachtaí foghlama seo acu, déileáil le fadhb teanga difriúil seachas an Béarla a fhoghlaim. An freagra a chualathas de ghnáth thar na blianta ná "they cannot learn Irish" nó má táthar ag caint le speech and language therapist deirtear go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ag cothú na faidhbe agus déanfaimid déileáil le teanga amháin ag an am.

Ní chuireann sé as do pháistí in aon áit ar domhan dhá nó trí theanga a fhoghlaim. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé beagáinín níos deacra dóibh má tá siad i suíomh áirithe nó más gá dóibh litríocht nó litriú a fhoghlaim. Do ghnáthpháistí mórthimpeall an domhan, seachas cohórt beag, bíonn siad in ann teangacha a fhoghlaim. Mar sin b'fhéidir gurb é an fhadhb atá ann ná an tslí a táimid ag múineadh na Gaeilge. Chuir muid an cheist ar roinnt de na dreamanna a bhí os ár gcomhair maidir leis an mbonnleibhéal. Tá ardleibhéal agus meán leibhéal sna scrúduithe agus níl bonnleibhéal ann a thuilleadh. B'fhéidir gurb é sin ceann de na bealaí chun déileáil leis an gceist a d'ardaigh an Teachta McHugh. Sa slí sin bheifí fós ag cuidiú le daltaí meas a bheith acu ar an teanga, ar an bhfoclaíocht agus ar an bhfoghraíocht a fhoghlaim gan an brú mór atá ar gach uile dalta atá ag tabhairt faoin ardteistiméireacht. B'fhéidir gurb é sin an bealach chun iad a choimeád ceangailte leis an nGaeilge.

Ceann de na fáthanna gur thosaigh muid air seo ná an bhuairt a léiríodh dúinn faoin ardú ó thaobh líon na ndíolúintí - tá an Roinn ag rá nach bhfuil ardú ann. Dúirt Aontas Múinteoirí Éireann linn go raibh ardú 170% ar líon na ndíolúintí a deonaíodh idir 2004 agus 2019. Ní mise a dúirt sin so tá fás tar éis tarlú. B'fhéidir gur roinnt de na páistí, mar a luaigh na finnéithe, iadsan atá ag bogadh isteach ó na bunscoileanna go dtí na meánscoileanna ach má tá siad ann ní chóir go mbeadh siad scartha amach ón chuid eile den bhliain nó den rang atá acu toisc nach bhfuil siad ag gabháil don Ghaeilge. An mbeadh an Roinn sásta féachaint an athuair ar an gceist sin mar gheall ar na leibhéil difriúla ar a bhfuil scrúdúcháin ar fáil ag an teastas sóisearach agus ag an ardteistiméireacht?

Ms Martina Mannion

My colleagues in that area are not with me today. I know we will get the transcript of this debate and I will bring back everything that has been said on the differentiated levels at junior certificate and leaving certificate levels. On the information the Chair had from the unions on the percentage increases, when we talk about our figures we are trying to put them in the context of the percentages based on the overall student population in the system. For example, in the 2017-18 school year, at post-primary level there were just over 357,000 students. In the 2021-22 school year there are 391,000 post-primary students. When we talk about percentages we have to reflect it on what is a growing post-primary population. That overall growth in the post-primary population, which we have known about for a number of years, has peaked at primary level and we are now moving into our growing post-primary population. That is in addition to the increased number of children with special educational needs moving through into our post-primary system. When we talk about those percentages being relatively stable, as the Minister did, they are relatively stable since 2008. Those are percentages of the total post-primary student population. That is a more reflective understanding of the extent of the exemptions at post-primary level in particular.

Deputy Pa Daly

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. Ba mhaith liom cúpla ceist a chur ar na finnéithe ón Roinn ar dtús. An bhfuil a fhios acu an céatadán dalta atá ag baint úsáide as na díolúintí a bhfuil a thuismitheoirí ó thíortha eile? Bhí an Seanadóir Kyne ag caint mar gheall ar monatóireacht na cigireachta. An bhfuil sé ceart a rá nach raibh aon mhonatóireacht faoi leith ar na díolúintí go dtí seo? Bímse ag caint le múinteoirí agus chuala mé faoi na staitisticí. Ní aontaím leis an Roinn go bhfuil na figiúirí static faoi láthair. Tá an fhadhb sna hiar-bhunscoileanna. Ón réamhrá a fuaireamar ó Chonradh na Gaeilge, maíodh go raibh beagnach 10% de dhaltaí iar-bhunscoileanna ag fáil díolúintí agus sa bhliain 1999 ní raibh ach 2% ag fáil díolúintí. Chuala mé na finnéithe ón Roinn ag rá go bhfuil níos mó daltaí in oideachas speisialta agus tá an ceart acu mar gheall air sin ach ní leanann sé nach bhfuil na daltaí sin in ann Gaelainn a dhéanamh sna teisteanna sna hiar-bhunscoileanna.

Bheadh sé níos fearr don Rialtas an Ghaelainn a neartú agus a chaomhnú agus na daltaí sin a dhíriú go dtí leibhéal páis, mar shampla, sna scrúduithe. Deir na múinteoirí lena mbím ag caint go bhfuil siad faoi bhrú chun na díolúintí a thabhairt do dhaltaí. Cuirim fáilte roimh an scéim mhonatóireachta atá ag teacht isteach. Ní raibh aon mhonatóireacht dhíreach ann roimhe seo, áfach. Tá a fhios agam faoin whole-school evaluation ach níl aon mhonatóireacht ar leith ag baint leis in aon chor.

Ms Martina Mannion

Ms Tansey and I work together on the area of special education and NEPS, but I hope we will be able to answer some of those questions. The Minister talked specifically about the important role that the inspector will play in the system with regard to subject inspections and whole-school inspections. Every component of the working schools are examined by our inspectors when they go in. We will be able to get the Deputy the number of people who are coming from abroad with regard to exemptions.

I understand some 112 exemptions were given for students coming from abroad in 2022. More than 6,000 were given at post-primary level for children who were coming from abroad. Those are the figures that I have. The Deputy talked about-----

Deputy Pa Daly

Sé mhíle dhíolúine do dhaltaí-----

Ms Martina Mannion

More than 6,000 for students coming from abroad.

Deputy Pa Daly

I mbliain amháin.

Ms Martina Mannion

Yes. The Deputy talked about 2.9% of people having exemptions in 1999. The Minister touched on it a little bit but it is important that we say it was not effectively until 1998 that the extent of special education was recognised in this country. The Minister referenced 104 special education teachers and 229 special needs assistants, SNAs. It was not that those children did not have needs; it was that we did not resource and support those children’s needs through our system. We have a completely different understanding from what we had in 1999. I have been working on the area of special education for more than 20 years. Even how we understand special education in 2022 is light years away from how we understood it ten years ago.

Deputy Pa Daly

Tá a fhios agam mar gheall air sin agus aontaím léi ach is é mo phointe é nach leanann sé toisc go bhfuil daltaí ag dul isteach chun special education go bhfaigheann na daltaí sin-----

Ms Martina Mannion

Absolutely.

Deputy Pa Daly

-----díolúine ón Ghaelainn. Ní leanann sé nach bhfuil siad in ann-----

Ms Martina Mannion

I agree with the Deputy.

Deputy Pa Daly

-----an Ghaelainn a fhoghlaim.

Ms Martina Mannion

Department evidence indicates that almost 25% of our school population has a special educational need. If one looks at those figures as being reflective of the number of children with special educational needs and the fact that 1.5% of children at primary level and between 9% and 10% of children at post-primary level are availing of an exemption, it is absolutely clear that the vast bulk of our children at primary level are able to access Irish. We talked a little bit about that earlier.

It is absolutely the case that the Department wishes to ensure that children with special educational needs can access Irish and should be supported in every possible way to access Irish through differentiation of the curriculum; range of resource teachers; SNAs and initial teacher training; changes that have been made in recent years; and ongoing CPD. It is not just the agencies of the Department that do CPD. The NCSE has an extensive body of resources and supports for ongoing CPD. When one looks at those, it is absolutely clear that out of a population of 25% of children with special educational needs, there are children who are accessing, enjoying and experiencing Irish in our education system. We wish to do everything we can to support them and make sure that only those whom the range of supports and interventions fail to assist them to do that are the children we see being supported through the exemptions.

Deputy Pa Daly

Cathain a bheidh an mhonatóireacht ag teacht isteach do na díolúintí?

Ms Martina Mannion

The new circular was just introduced in September of this year. I apologise as our colleagues from the inspectorate who were here earlier have left but we will be able to come back to the Deputy with regard to how the inspection will be rolled out as part of the 2022 circular. I reassure the committee that the 2022 circular adds one additional component to what was the previous cohort of children supported in the 1999 circular. This component is with regard to children who have multiple and persistent need that was not catered for in the 2019 circular. We have talked about moving away from a diagnostic-led model to one where children have multiple and persistent need. In our circular, we identified what multiple and persistent need might look like in order that it is clear that one cannot say one has such a need today and is able to say to a school that one wants an exemption. As the Minister said, one has to show a protracted period of engagement and attempts to ensure that the strategies would work for the student before he or she is eligible to be considered under the additionality introduced in 2022.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Gabhaim mo leithscéal nach raibh mé anseo. Tá mé ag iarraidh mo scileanna bi-location-----

Chairman

Is féidir an dá thrá a fhreastal.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Ní féidir. Sin í an fhadhb. Cuirfidh mé an cheist atá curtha agam ar an Aire an athuair, is é sin, an bhfuil aon taighde ann? Is é an rud a chloisimid go minic ná go bhfuil an Ghaelainn níos deacra ar shlí éigin ná teangacha eile. Luaigh mé an sampla den chara atá agam. Tá fadhb aige maidir le hurú, séimhiú, an uimhir iolra agus a leithéid. Cuireann siad isteach air. An bhfuil aon bhunús leis sin? An bhfuil aon taighde déanta a léiríonn go bhfuil, ar chúis éigin, an Ghaelainn níos deacra do dhaoine a fhoghlaim seachas an Ghearmáinis, an Spáinnis nó teanga eile?

Mr. Dónal Ó hAinféin

Ní taighdeoir idirnáisiúnta mé ach bheadh an t-aon taighde atá ar eolas againn leis an méid a dúirt Ms Tansey ansin maidir leis an mBéarla. Tá sé aitheanta go hidirnáisiúnta go bhfuil an gaol idir na litreacha agus na fuaimeanna casta agus dian i mBéarla agus go gcruthaíonn sé sin dúshláin i bhfoghlaim an Bhéarla do dhaoine a bhfuil Béarla mar chéad teanga acu. Tá sé an-suimiúil cloisteáil gurb é sin an bunús a bhíonn le daoine chun iarratas a dhéanamh ar fhoghlaim na Gaelainne atá ábhairín níos éasca – sílimid – mar go mbíonn fada againn ar na gutaí a gcabhraíonn go mór agus tú ag sealbhú na léitheoireachta. Tá sé ábhairín níos éasca chun na scileanna léitheoireachta a shealbhú inti.

Má bhíonn teip ar dhaoine litríocht an Bhéarla a shealbhú agus má tá sé sin ag cothú imní dóibh, is é sin an bunús chun díolúine a fháil ón Ghaeilge. Is é sin an áit a bhfuil an locht sa chóras reatha. Ní theastaíonn ó aon oideachasóir go mbeadh imní ar pháiste ach is léir ón méid atá cloiste go mbaineann an imní seo leis an mBéarla agus le sealbhú scileanna litearthachta sa Bhéarla agus sealbhú na teanga agus nach bhfuil an dul chun cinn mar is cuí á dhéanamh acu. Braitear ansin – go mícheart – gur cheart díolúine a fháil ón Ghaeilge chun cabhrú leo.

Sin croí na ceiste. Má tá teachtaireacht amháin le dul amach ón gcoiste seo, is é go mbaineann an dúshlán leis an mBéarla. Ní bhaineann an dúshlán leis an nGaelainn. Ní ann do dhíolúintí i nGaelscoileanna, scoileanna Gaeltachta agus scoileanna chuimsitheacha le daltaí go bhfuil deacrachtaí agus dúshláin fhoghlama acu de gach aon sórt. Sin an teachtaireacht gur mhaith liomsa a chloisteáil go láidir inniu. Ní le teanga na Gaelainne a bhaineann na dúshláin seo ar chor ar bith ach leis an teanga eile.

Ms Cathy Connolly

Tá go leor taighde idirnáisiúnta a léiríonn go bhfuil cumas nádúrtha againn go léir glacadh le teanga eile. Tá sé soiléir dúinne go bhfuil daltaí le míchumas, agus an-chuid míchumais, in ann feidhmiú trí mheán na Gaeilge sa tumoideachas. Tá idirdhealú le déanamh idir an Ghaeilge labhartha agus ó bhéal agus an t-ualach oibre litríochta atá á dhéanamh acu. Is ansin a bhíonn na fadhbanna. Sa Ghaeloideachas, nuair atá daltaí ag staidéar teangacha eile, faigheann siad díolúine ón bhFraincis uaireanta. Tá exemption sa cheathrú bliain so déanann siad é sin. Níl na staitisticí agam ach sa scoil inar mhúin mise, gach uile bhliain bhí triúir nó ceathrar as b'fhéidir 94 dalta a lorg na díolúine sin. Lorgaíonn siad díolúine ón stair, ón tíreolaíocht nó ón eolaíocht freisin mar go bhfuil an teanga an-teicniúil. Tá foghraíocht na Gaeilge agus na fonaicí i bhfad níos éasca do dhaltaí le disléicse ná an Béarla.

Ms Anne Tansey

To add to the discussion, there is also the concept of anxiety related to second language learning. It can be anxiety-provoking for children, particularly for some children who might have communication difficulties, underlying language difficulties or social communication difficulties. The type of language learning needed for second languages can be an obstacle. Within a classroom setting, you might encounter avoidance behaviours, with children arriving late, skipping classes or refusing to engage with the second language learning. There can be acting out in class in order to save face. There can also be physical symptoms of anxiety, such as sweating and headaches and that kind of thing. There is a cohort of children who experience subject-specific anxiety-----

Chairman

Cé mhéad? How big is that cohort?

Ms Anne Tansey

We think it is small.

Chairman

Would it be 10%?

Ms Anne Tansey

No, not 10%. We see a small number of children presenting with a kind of anxiety related to second language learning. It is complex because it is not just related to the learning of the language but to their own ability to communicate within it, the difficulties they might have with it and how they manage those difficulties. In NEPS, we do a lot of work in building teacher capacity to support children who present with subject-specific anxiety or anxiety related to language learning. We support them to put interventions in place. There are children who experience anxiety about the learning of second languages and Irish. They are the children we were particularly concerned about with regard to the changes that were made in the circular this time around. We were trying to capture them because we could see they were still experiencing severe anxiety, to the point where they would refuse to go to school and were refusing to engage with their learning. We have to balance the needs of the children and their opportunities to access learning with their well-being within the school setting. There is a cohort of children for whom the learning of a second language is an issue. In particular, we see a small cohort of children for whom the learning of Gaeilge is anxiety-provoking and it presents in different ways within the classroom. These are the children we have particular concerns about because it impacts on their learning and their well-being in relation to their ability to stay in school and be present in school.

Ms Martina Mannion

Taking up the point Mr. Ó hAinféin made, where children are coming from an environment or home where they are immersed in their first language, whatever that is, it is the learning of a second language, whatever that is, that presents the challenges Ms Tansey talked about. It is not that we see Irish as the problem or that English is the more opaque language. The reality is that if these children are living in English-speaking homes, it is trying to learn the second language that presents an issue for those small numbers of children. With all the strategies NEPS implements, including the building of teacher capacity, we are trying to ensure teachers have the strategies to be able to intervene with those children before it becomes a problem. That is the key piece. We need to get to this before it becomes an issue so NEPS is not called in to provide more intensive supports in the schools. That is what we want to do in order to avoid these problems.

Senator Tim Lombard

I thank the Chair for his courtesy. I will stay on topic this time round. Last time, I was slightly off topic. I am only a visitor to this committee. It has been a very important debate and an interesting afternoon. The Minister mentioned some figures regarding primary schools. The witnesses might clarify them for me. She said the rate of exemptions went from 3.3% down to 1.9%. Am I right in saying those are the figures the Minister mentioned a while ago?

Ms Martina Mannion

Yes. At primary level, the new exemptions granted decreased from 3,892 in 2017-18 to 2,527 in 2021-22, which was a 65% decrease overall at primary level. At post-primary level, the new ones increased by 27%. When considered as part of the primary cohort, the proportion of pupils holding an exemption at primary level, relative to the primary pupil population, was less than 4% in 2004, reached a high of 7% in 2010 and has been steadily declining to 1.9%. That is for the years where figures are available.

Senator Tim Lombard

I am amazed that the primary school level has decreased. It is an amazing figure. There was a feeling out there that the primary school figures were increasing dramatically. This is news to me. Maybe the committee was aware of that but I was not. It has brought clarity to the entire situation of where the exemption process is going.

I ask the witnesses to elaborate on how education has changed. Exemptions are a very important part of the education system but the entire ethos of how we teach our children has changed. I have noticed it myself. I had four kids in primary school last year and one has now gone to secondary. It is a totally different machine from when we were in school 25 years ago. There are movie nights and things. It is beyond belief. I ask the witnesses to talk about the well-being part of school and where that fits in. They have stated that well-being is now an important part of the exemption process.

Ms Anne Tansey

We would view well-being and learning as opposite sides of the same coin. Well-being is important to learning and vice versa. They have an interactive impact on each other. Within schools, we are promoting a well-being policy, which looks at four key components of well-being. It looks at building a school atmosphere, climate and culture that is supportive of children and young people and recognises the range of needs that children and young people have. It strongly encourages the promotion of learning at the right level, meeting the child's needs in relation to subjects and building up the child's capacity around social and emotional skills.

We also look at the key adults in a child's life. We make sure these keys adults, in the child's life and in school life, are supportive of the child and, overall, that policies are reflective of well-being within the school setting.

Senator Tim Lombard

I refer to what happens when a child goes to secondary school, the special education co-ordinator who is in most secondary schools and the role that person plays in identifying problems and issues, working with the education system, as well as the parents and teachers. Is that an important leg in making sure no one falls through the cracks in the context of secondary school?

Ms Anne Tansey

Yes, absolutely. We have systems in place whereby information about how a child was supported at primary level is transferred when he or she transitions into post-primary level. Information about the child's progress is transferred so that the post-primary school is up to speed on the supports that may have been in place for children when they were in primary school.

Senator Tim Lombard

Regarding the strict learning assessments that are done, a child can only get an exemption if he or she is below the 10th percentile. Why is it the 10th percentile and how did that emerge?

Ms Anne Tansey

Many years ago in the 1990s, when the-----

Senator Tim Lombard

The question is why not the 11th or 9th percentile. The 10th percentile is a round figure.

Ms Anne Tansey

The 10th percentile is well recognised internationally as a cut-off point under which children present with moderate to severe difficulties and it is a figure used to identify children with such difficulties. If a child is performing at the 50th percentile, it means the child is performing as well as about 50% of his or her peers. If a child is performing at the 10th percentile, the child is performing as well as only 10%, or less, of his or her peers.

Senator Tim Lombard

The only point at which a child can get an exemption from Irish is if he or she is under the 10th percentile. Is that correct?

Ms Anne Tansey

It is not just a snapshot in time when it comes to exemptions. Years ago, it was a snapshot of how the child was getting on at a particular time. Schools are now looking at the child's response to intervention over time. We encourage schools to recognise that children may be struggling, to put interventions in place and monitor their outcomes and to try to ensure children are making progress. The level of need is measured by the child's response to intervention over time. There are many children receiving learning support in schools whose response to intervention over time has improved. They do better than when they received the support. There will still be a cohort of children who struggle and do not respond to interventions in the way a typical child might.

We have now embedded the idea of response to intervention into the system. It is important that we do not give an exemption to a child outside the context of having received learning support, with the use of evidence-based interventions over time. At the end of that process a child may still be really struggling. We would say that "struggling", which is being at or below the 10th percentile, is a measure of a child with moderate to severe level of difficulties.

Senator Tim Lombard

A child under the 10th percentile is probably struggling to read maths questions and is struggling across a range of subjects. The child is not just struggling in basic English; it affects the entire curriculum. The knock-on implication is that unless a child has a solid basis of some level of English, he or she will struggle across the entire curriculum.

Ms Anne Tansey

Yes. Children will have access to support across the school system when they are struggling. Evidence-based interventions will always be put in place for those children to continue to improve their literacy and language levels.

Senator Tim Lombard

If a child is struggling across the entire dynamic of all subjects when going to school, what impact would the added pressure of another language on top of that have on the student?

Ms Anne Tansey

It depends on the level of need the child has. We know there is research that indicates learning two languages is useful and beneficial for children. We know there are benefits in that regard and we recognise that. Sometimes there is a cognitive load on a child and the effort the child puts into learning the first language is such that learning a second language is very difficult for him or her.

Senator Tim Lombard

I am very much a supporter of the teaching of Irish language in schools and the work that is done. I just think there is a certain cohort who are under exceptional pressure at that pinch time. If a child receives a report that states he or she is in the 10th or maybe the 3rd or 4th percentile, we need to look at this in a favourable mind for such a child because the child must survive.

Ms Martina Mannion

Every child with special educational needs should have a student support plan in school that identifies all the challenges talked about by the Senator. More importantly, we have moved away from the 1990s way of diagnosing children and having a diagnostic-led model. It is now a needs-based model. The student support plan is where all the challenges a student faces are documented and, more importantly, all the interventions that have been put in place for the student are being monitored by the special education teacher, the SNA, the class teacher, the school principal and the whole school community to try to ensure that child reaches his or her potential. It is important for each child with special educational needs that it is never a measurement of a point in time, but always a continuum of support and progress.

Ms Anne Tansey

Many children make very good progress under that system. Some children may have had gaps in their learning, which they catch up on as those gaps are identified and addressed. However, some children continue to struggle at a moderate to severe level.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Gabhaim buíochas leis na haíonna as a bheith anseo. Tá cúpla ceist agam dóibh. Ar an gcéad dul síos, dírím ar NEPS agus ar an Roinn. D’éist mé leis an bpíosa deireanach agus is fíor go bhféadfaí go mbeadh deacrachtaí ann do leanaí atá ag foghlaim Béarla don chéad uair. Ó thaobh an chuid eile de cheist an tSeanadóra, is beag scoláirí atá ag fáil na díolúine ag an mbunscoil. I bhformhór na cásanna faoina bhfuilimid ag caint, is ag an meánscoil atá siad ar fáil. Ó thaobh cuibheas an chéatadáin, tá méadú suntasach tagtha ar líon na scoláirí a fhaigheann díolúine sa mheánscoil. Táimid ag caint faoi thart ar 10% i gcomparáid le b'fhéidir 2% nó mar sin de, mar a dúradh. Tá an cás atá á phlé ansin cuid mhaith dhifriúil. An bhfuil aon staitisticí nó fianaise ann faoin aois is comónta ag a bhfaigheann scoláire díolúine?

Ms Martina Mannion

I apologise. Our colleagues who were here earlier may have had some of that information. I will take that question and get back to the Deputy. One of the things we have tried to do in the circulars is to introduce a process whereby an exemption is not easily given and that two years of intensive engagement must be shown for this cohort of children who have multiple and persistent needs. It cannot be given to those below second class because we want to ensure children have every opportunity - half of a child's primary school life - to allow them access to all the planned interventions and strategies in order to see how they work. At a very minimum, the exemption cannot be introduced before that point. The idea is, as Mr. Ó hAiniféin and our colleagues mentioned, to give people every opportunity to access the Irish curriculum and Irish education as much as possible. It may be easier at primary level, in some contexts, as there are opportunities to engage with the language in other ways, such as singing and games.

In a post-primary context, we see the percentage has held stable, at between 9% and 10%. In addition to children with special educational needs, this includes the separate cohort of children who are coming from abroad. As was said earlier, some 6,000 children who came from abroad in 2022 are in this category. Not only does it include children coming from abroad but also the demographic change of children with special educational needs moving from a mainstream primary school to post-primary school, as well as the big growth in special education post-primary provision.

To give the Deputy some idea, in 2011-12 there were 68 post-primary autism spectrum disorder, ASD, classes and there are now almost 700. There has been a very significant growth in supporting children with special educational needs at post-primary level. We in the Department and in the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, see that this is going to grow more significantly in the coming years as the demographics continue to move and as there is also that better understanding of special education, which is changing and evolving all the time. There will be more children in post-primary education both because of demographics and because of a greater understanding of special education.

Again, it might assist the committee to have some understanding of this. There were earlier talks about 2% of children being the total number of children that should be availing of this education. It was the case that our understanding of special education meant that the figures we were working off were 1% to 1.5% of children with autism; we are now talking about 3% to 3.5% of such children. On complex needs, the HSE understanding is that it was somewhere like 3%. It is now saying to us that it could be somewhere between 5% and 6%. When we look at that and understand that that is how we now appreciate special education, and recognise it not just in a diagnostic model but in a practical understanding, as Ms Tansey said, of this continuum of support, we see that there will be more children in special education in our post-primary system and schools.

That is very good because it means that those children are being supported, we recognise their need and we are putting the resources in to support them. It also means that we want them to be in mainstream education, even within special classes in mainstream education. Perhaps in earlier years, those children at post-primary level may have gone to special schools when they left primary level.

All of this points to a more inclusive education system and to us putting the resources in to support our children with special education at primary level, with a particular focus at the moment on post-primary education.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Aontaím le gach rud ansin. The only thing I would say is that one would have hoped that we are more aware of and that there is much more investment in this area but one would have also hoped that that would have helped lift the load and that would have made it easier for children who in the past may have had to do Irish with no additional support. Perhaps, it should be easier for those children now with this additional investment. That is the hope.

Ms Martina Mannion

That is what we hope but it is more than a hope. We have put in the additional teaching, resources and supports. If one looks at the increase in special education teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs, we are putting them into the system so that they can target those children who most need them. When we talk about giving schools the flexibility to use those supports that is because schools know where the need is. We want to ensure that schools are able to make those decisions in line with having the resources to do it. We talked earlier about one in three posts of responsibility going back into schools. We are putting in a great deal of additional supports.

Since 2017-18, for example, we have had the restoration of over 2,600 posts of responsibility back into our school systems. That is the equivalent of 1,300 middle management posts at assistant principal 1 and 2. The sectoral bargaining process under the Building Momentum: Public Service Agreement 2021-2022 which has been agreed will see an additional 1,450 posts of responsibility at primary level and in special schools in the 2022-23 school year. All of that is going to assist targeting students.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I would greatly appreciate seeing more posts of responsibility and I hope that we will see that in the time to come. Those developments are to support the schools generally and are not particular to the Irish language.

One point I wished to pick up on statistically was where Ms Mannion said that at post-primary level the position has remained static, by and large. The number of exemptions in 2016 was 4,099 as far as I can gather. In 2022 it was it was 7,400. I am aware that it is a different system but where there has been demographic growth at post-primary level, I do not believe that this growth is at the level of 70% to 80%. I have a query on the statement that the number of exemptions has remained static.

Ms Martina Mannion

The figures we are working off on post-primary education state that there were 33,000 exemptions in the 2017-18 school year out of a school population of 357,000, which works out at approximately 9.4%. In the school year 2021-22, the number of exemptions was at 41,000 out of a school population of 391,000, which equals approximately 10.5% of this population. Those figures show to us the difference being between 9% and 10%. Between the years 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2021, we are looking at figures of 9.4%, 9.4%, 9.9% and 10.5%. We are talking about that being the evidence across the post-primary system.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

My final question for the Department is the point I raised previously, which is that in any arena we need to look at international best practice. Obviously, other jurisdictions are different and there are probably limits on the comparators we have in the cases of the majority language and minority language dynamic. Having said that, a child is the same in every country, as is their ability. When the new circular was drafted, where did we look to and what is the international best practice which the Department would have worked off to come up with the 2019 circular, or any circular?

Ms Martina Mannion

In looking at the circulars, they have not been reviewed since 1990 and that is obviously a particular challenge. When we look at best practice, everybody here, as have the people who have appeared before the committee before the Department did, have said that the best thing is for children, where possible, to acquire a second language and to be best supported to do that. That is at the heart of what we were trying to do in the 2019 review. We talked a little earlier about there being an unprecedented response to the review of the circulars. There were over 11,000 responses to the survey and over 100 detailed submissions.

In looking at the changes we made in the 2019 circular, we did a couple of key things. We moved away from a diagnostic model. That dignostic model was reflected in the 1990 circulars, which was that we then understood special education as only being supported in a way that had to be medically diagnosed. We have moved away from a diagnostic model to a needs-based model. We based that on a continuum of support and on the information that was found in the student’s support file. That way of supporting special education is completely in line with best practice. I am aware that our colleagues from the inspectorate are not here but Ms Tansey and her colleagues from NCSE will be able to say that that is best practice for children with special educational needs. That was one of the key things that we did.

We included the provision for children in special classes in special schools, which was very important, because this is recognising our children in special classes and in special schools are there because they have a very specific need which requires additional resources and supports. Recognition of those cohorts of children is contributing to the numbers of children because we now have more children in special schools and in special classes.

I know the Deputy is aware of this and has been extraordinarily supportive of the new special schools, five of which we have opened in the past two years. We have increased our numbers of special classes exponentially and we now have 2,500 special classes across the system. We have new legislation which allows us to open special classes in a faster way, if we so need.

There are 8,000 children in special schools and 15,000 children in special classes. That is a very significant number of children in special education getting the support that they completely need and deserve. Ensuring that those children are supported in our system was a critical calling out for that support in the 2019 circular.

We have been looking at best practice, have been moving away from a diagnostic-based model, have been moving to a needs-based model and have been supporting the children in specialist provision. Furthermore, in 2022, the additionality has been around the recognition of the multiple and persistent need and that has been the only change. This has only come in since September and we hope to have more information on it shortly.

Chairman

Tá an t-am istigh orainn. Má tá Dónal Ó hAiniféin, John Kearney, Cathy Connolly nó Jacqueline Ní Fhearghusa ag iarraidh rud éigin gairid a rá, féadfaidh siad, ach caithfidh siad a bheith gairid, lena dtoil.

Mr. Dónal Ó hAiniféin

Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an gcoiste as an spéis agus an suim san ábhar seo. Tá ár dtuiscintí maidir le hoideachas speisialta ag forbairt i gcomhar lenár gcomhghleacaithe sa tSeirbhís Náisiúnta Síceolaíochta Oideachais, NEPS, agus san NCSE an t-am ar fad. Tá COGG tiomanta chun iadsan a fhorbairt arís don earnáil lán-Ghaeilge. Gabhaim mo bhuíochas le baill an choiste agus leis an gCathaoirleach as an éisteacht a tugadh dúinn.

Chairman

Leis sin, cuirfimid clabhsúr lenár ndíospóireacht ar an ábhar seo inniu.

Rinneamar iniúchadh cuibheasach domhain ar an gceist seo. Más gá dúinn, fillfimid ar an gceist seo arís ach tá súil againn nár ghá dúinn é sin a dhéanamh. Má tá spéis ag aon duine atá ag féachaint isteach orainn maidir leis an ábhar seo, is féidir leo achainí, moladh, nóta míniúcháin nó nóta breise eolais a chur chugainn nó chuig iad siúd a bhí os ár gcomhair inniu, nó roimhe seo. Déanfaimid iad sin a chur san áireamh sa tuarascáil a bheidh á hullmhú againn idir seo - tá súil agam - agus an Nollaig.

É sin ráite agam, ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis na finnéithe ar fad a bhí os ár gcomhair. Rinne mé dearmad a aithint freisin go raibh an Teachta O’Dowd linn ar líne ar feadh tréimhse, mar aon leis an Seanadóir Clifford Lee.

I measc na bhfinnéithe a bhí os ár gcomhair, bhí an tAire Oideachais, an Teachta Foley, anseo ní ba luaithe; ina héineacht bhí Dalton Tattan, rúnaí cúnta; Evelyn O’Connor, príomhoifigeach sa rannóg beartas, churaclaim agus measúnachta; agus Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe, príomhoifigeach san aonad um oideachas Gaeltachta, a raibh orthu imeacht roimh dheireadh an chruinnithe. Tá Martina Mannion, rúnaí cúnta na Roinne sin fós anseo linn agus Anne Tansey, stiúrthóir na seirbhíse náisiúnta síceolaíochta oideachais. Luaim freisin Eibhlín Ní Scannláin, an cigire sinsearach. Chomh maith leis sin ón gComhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta bhí an príomhfheidhmeannach, Jacqueline Ní Fhearghusa, agus an cathaoirleach, Dónal Ó hAiniféin. Maille leo siúd freisin ón gComhairle Náisiúnta um Oideachas Speisialta, bhí John Kearney agus Cathy Connolly os ár gcomhair. Gabhaim mo bhuíochas leo siúd ar fad as a gcuid ama a thabhairt dúinn.