Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 May 1999

Vol. 1 No. 7

1997 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed):

Vote 19 - Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Vote 20 - Garda Síochána.

Vote 21 - Prisons.

Vote 22 - Courts.

Vote 23 - Land Registry and Registry of Deeds.

Vote 33 - Equality and Law Reform.

Vote 16 - Civil Service Commission.

The Committee of Public Accounts is now in public session to deal with the 1997 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Appropriation Accounts (resumed); Vote 19 - Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Vote 20 - Garda Síochána; Vote 21 - Prisons; Vote 22 - Courts; Vote 23 - Land Registry and Registry of Deeds and Vote 33 - Equality and Law Reform. It was agreed at the previous examination of these Votes on 5 November 1998 that the issue of civilianisation, mentioned in paragraph 23 of the report, should be discussed with the Civil Service Commission. This body is also present today for examination of its accounts and item 6, management of capital projects, paragraph 25, is also to be addressed.

Correspondence dated 15 December 1998 from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform relating to Dóchas, overtime and crime levels has been circulated.

Witnesses should be made aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and should be apprised as follows: attention is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the proceedings. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee.

I welcome Mr. Tim Dalton, Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Perhaps you could introduce your officials.

Mr. Tim Dalton (Secretary General, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform) called and examined.

Mr. Dalton

With me I have Denis O'Neill, a principal in the prisons section who deals with capital projects, among other things and Finbarr Wall, assistant principal architect of the Office of Public Works. The Chairman wanted technical expertise and Finbarr is the principal architect dealing with the prison building programme on the way. Jimmy Martin is a principal dealing with the Garda and civilianisation and he also deals with general issues relating to the gardai. Assistant Commissioner Joe Egan is also here and he deals with civilianisation, stores and other matters as well as Ken Bruton, the Department's finance officer. He replaced Mick Madden, who retired and has gone on to better things. Seán Aylward, assistant secretary dealing with courts and immigration, is also present.

You are all welcome. We also have Mr. Joe Boyle, Secretary General of the Civil Service Commission. Perhaps you could introduce your officials.

Mr. Joe Boyle (Secretary General, Civil Service Commission) called and examined.

Mr. Boyle

With me I have Val McBride, HEO in the accounts section, Deirdre Ní Ghríofa, assistant principal in charge of finance and with recruitment responsibilities, Brendan O'Callaghan, principal officer in charge of administrative and clerical recruitment and Pádraig Love, principal in charge of finance and with a range of recruitment responsibilities in the professional and technical areas.

You are all welcome. From the Department of Finance we have Jim O'Farrell, Kevin Cardiff and Emer Hogan, control of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform Vote.

Mr. Meade

As outlined, these paragraphs were discussed at the November 1998 meeting but I will summarise the main points raised.

The question of large overtime payments incurred both by the gardai and the Prison Service was outlined in paragraph 5. The reasons for these are complex and were gone into in some detail at the previous hearing. Paragraph 23 dealt with the delay in recruiting of 194 civilian staff to fill the places of gardai, thereby releasing some gardai for operational duties. This was due to a combination of resource problems in the Civil Service Commission, some staff association and union problems and the need to give priority to garda recruitment. Most of these problems have now been resolved and to date 129 of the 194 posts have been filled. Interviews have been held and the balance should be filled in the next few months.

The question of civilianisation is under review by the steering body set up to implement the strategic review of the Garda. The Accounting Officer indicated at the last meeting that the delay in civilianisation has led to operational inefficiencies. The Accounting Officers of both the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Civil Service Commission are here and the Chair can get their comments.

Paragraph 24 dealt with inadequate stock control systems for Garda stores. As outlined at the last meeting and more recently in information furnished to me from the Accounting Officer, further progress has been made in resolving many of the problems noted. It should be recorded that the swift action taken by Mr. Dalton, the Department and the gardai in responding positively to the matters raised on the audit is to be noted and they are to be complimented.

Paragraph 25 referred to a number of shortcomings in the way that two prison projects, the Curragh and Portlaoise Prison kitchen projects, costing in total £6.1 million, were undertaken. The Accounting Officer indicated that he had revised procedures to ensure that projects were properly managed. He also indicated that there was no misappropriation or waste of money in these projects. While I appreciate this viewpoint, a risk of and exposure to failure to achieve value for money existed. It had to be noted that the Department was engaged in a huge increase in its workload in the prison section with limited staff resources available as well as a huge public and political demand to create a large number of places quickly. The Department therefore had to balance these pressures with the need to have proper planning procedures in place.

The Civil Service Commission Vote is relatively small, with a gross expenditure of £3.3 million. The expender classifications are all administration subheads and include the expenses of the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission. Apart from the usual salary, travelling and administrative costs, the Vote also includes the cost of advertising and organising examinations as well as the payment of fees to assessors for candidates. Apart from civilianisation matter, there were no paragraphs in Comptroller and Auditor General's report for 1997 but I bring to the committee's attention that a management consultancy firm was appointed in June 1998 to carry out an organisational review of the civil and local appointments body. I understand that the final report of the consultants is due this week or early next week and naturally will be brought to the attention of the Government before it is released.

I welcome Mr. Dalton. Very significant progress has been made has been made on civilianisation. I appreciate the problems that may be arising in recruitment because of the economy. It was intended to release 200 gardaí from these posts. What type of work were these gardaí doing and where were they mainly deployed?

Mr. Dalton

They were mainly doing clerical work. To the best of my knowledge most of them were employed in the Garda depot but Assistant Commissioner Joe Egan can confirm that. The number released is 114 and does not exactly fit the number of civilians but there will always be a little gap between those figures. That is the position now and we hope with the additional recruitment, which is well under way, that the gardai will be released. For example, the group to be recruited includes 30 civilian drivers. They will obviously directly replace people on driving duties in the depot. The area is a little delicate in the sense that the associations obviously have a strong interest in this but we believe we have passed the hurdle on that for more extensive civilianisation We will continue to have discussions with the associations for obvious reasons.

Do you know at this time how many gardaí are still employed in tasks that either you or Assistant Commissioner Egan want to restore to policing?

Mr. Dalton

There are varying estimates of that, depending on who one talks to. The Department's view is that there is a case for quite significant numbers, possibly in the hundreds. The Commissioner would probably not necessarily agree and the associations would have a more restrictive view. Our broad benchmark would be to look at what has happened in other jurisdictions. They are not exactly comparable, as there are issues with other jurisdictions, such as dual police forces and agencies like MI5 which do not have corresponding bodies here, so one cannot always be sure of bare figures. However, the extent of civilianisation in other jurisdictions appears much higher. For example, in the London Metropolitan Police it is upwards of 50 per cent. That is not necessarily an absolute benchmark but we do have a feeling there is greater civilianisation in other jurisdictions. The Garda strategic management group is looking specifically at this and I expect a greater reliance on civilianisation in the years ahead. Whether that will necessarily mean a corresponding reduction or containment of costs is the issue. The Garda would understandably take the view that one cannot sacrifice police numbers for civilians. They would want to retain the number of police they have but the extremes are at one end in the hundreds and much more conservative on the other. I do not have a figure at this stage.

Assistant Commissioner Egan

There are a number of issues involved here and if the expectation is that there will be huge numbers of gardaí going back on the streets, it is not how we are looking at civilianisation. In the areas where there are individual numbers, such as telecommunications and the mechanical field, one will not have big numbers of gardaí going back on the street. We are looking at a more efficient back up service to what is there. That is where we see the advantage in this but in terms of numbers, one is talking about a maximum of 200 to 300 people coming back on the street. That is not a huge number if spread over the country.

The public perception is different from the reality as you see it?

Assistant Commissioner Egan

Yes.

That is important. Is the Civil Service Commission recruiting to replace gardaí who have been released for policing?

Mr. Boyle

The Civil Service Commission would, for the most part, be recruiting the civilians to replace active gardaí.

What is the situation regarding people who were in the public service, discontinued their employment and now seek to re-enter the public service? How many such people are seeking to get back?

Mr. Boyle

I would not have a figure right off for the number of former civil servants who are seeking, by way of application to public competition, to get back into the Civil Service. They are welcome to apply for public competitions but the pattern in relation to open competitions for clerical and executive recruits is that it is open to all applicants who have the skills and qualifications required. The former civil servants would not necessarily be identified as a discrete group, though I may want to come back to that. I cannot be any more helpful than that.

I ask because it would be obvious from the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General that there are some difficulties in the recruitment of personnel. Why is that the case? I have many people asking me, as I am sure all Deputies are asked, about re-entry into the public service. That being the case, I thought there might be some statistical information about the numbers for replacement duties in the civilianisation context.

Mr. Boyle

The most recent competition for clerical staff and for executive officers specifically invited applications from former civil servants within a category in the overall competition and 1,800 former civil servants made applications. I do not have downstream figures for the success or persistence rate of those candidates.

What do you mean by "success rate"?

Mr. Boyle

If 1,800 applied there would have been a process of competition through written test and interviews and then a process of selection for appointment. I would like to have the figures on the outcome of the applications.

Would the process be different from that used for first time applicants to the public service?

Mr. Boyle

No, it would be the same. It would be the same competitive process on equal terms for all candidates.

Is the system of selection altered from the earlier days?

Mr. Boyle

There was a system some years ago whereby former civil servants could reapply to the Departments they had resigned from with a view to resuming their careers. That facility was closed off for equality or legal reasons. The arrangement I described was by way of facilitating those who wished to come back but that has been closed off. The arrangement was that they would apply as a discrete group within the overall ambit of an open competition and follow through the same processes as every other candidate.

Do you feel there is a difficulty because of the economic climate in getting people to apply for public service positions?

Mr. Boyle

There is no doubt about that. Right across the economy the major topic in recruitment circles is the buoyant job market. Employers across the economy are taking special measures to meet that challenge. I am glad to say that the Civil Service and ourselves are taking measures to meet and counter that challenge. We are taking a number of measures with the support of the Department of Finance and the strategic management initiative implementation group.

Would you care to tell us what they are and quantify the difficulties you are having?

Mr. Boyle

I will give an example of the kind of difficulty or the way in which trends have changed. In 1994, to take a base year, we had 27,000 applications for clerical level posts. A corresponding competition in 1999 yielded something under 8,000 applications. Another example would be Garda trainee appointments. In 1994 there were 15,000 applications. Last year, 1998, there were 6,500 applications. It can be seen that there is a significant decline in the overall interest.

Going beyond that through the selection process, a larger number of people are opting out of the selection process along the way. A higher number of people than before are declining job offers at the end of a selection process. In common with other employers across the economy, we are concerned about the trends and we are looking at a number of measures.

Before we discuss the measures, how many vacancies are there in the public service at the moment? Do you have a ballpark figure?

Mr. Boyle

At clerical level there are close on 400 vacancies on our books currently.

You are having difficulty filling them?

Mr. Boyle

As quickly as we fill jobs, we hear from Departments of further vacancies. We find that, over several months, the actual number of vacancies is not changing that much.

Has the Department of Finance given its approval for the recruitment?

Mr. Boyle

Yes.

Are people dropping out of the public service in greater numbers than before?

Mr. Boyle

They are. We have initiated a study on this to try to get behind the vacancy figures to get a handle on trends and the reasons people are leaving. We have initiated a project to provide some background information with a view to better manpower forecasting and advising on recruitment policy into the months and years ahead. The results have not come through yet.

Has it ever occurred to the Civil Service Commission that some people might find the public service a rather dull and poorly paid job opportunity in comparison with the mobility, opportunities, challenges and apparent freedoms enjoyed in the private sector? Without going into a consultancy examination of the difficulties, does Mr. Boyle feel that there are pretty obvious improvements which need to be made?

In answering that question, perhaps you would elaborate on the measures being taking.

Mr. Boyle

I am glad to say that there are a number of good things happening. We have the full support of the Department of Finance and the SMI implementation group on this. We are sitting with an interdepartmental group looking at recruitment trends and policies on an ongoing basis. We are feeding information from the process into that review exercise. We are looking at issues concerning the attractiveness of the Civil Service as a career of choice for people in the jobs market. That project will give us an indication of what job seekers expect in employment, what their views are of the Civil Service and what we need to do to make the Civil Service more attractive to them.

A number of issues around this will help us shape advertising and marketing policy among other things. We are holding competitions more frequently. It is clear to us that, with the choices people have in the jobs market, they are not going to sit around indefinitely waiting for an offer. We have to go into the market more frequently, process applications more quickly and make job offers in a timely way to compete with the private sector in the jobs market.

The Deputy spoke about pay. It is not my place to talk about Civil Service pay other than to say that we are feeding the information and the trends we are gleaning into the policy arena. There is work to be done, for example, on the image of the Civil Service, marketing issues and greater coverage in terms of advertising. A couple of examples would be a direct approach to the career guidance sector at second level with a view to raising awareness of the Civil Service as a career option for students as an alternative to third level education. A number of these initiatives will help to advise us and keep us up to date on trends and action which needs to be taken.

The resource issue is significant in that we have additional resources available to us this year in terms of staffing and moneys. That is necessary to ensure that we can respond in a timely way. If we are going to the market more often and if we are more active in marketing and advertising, there is a cost overhead. We know that other employers have been investing heavily in policies and processes on recruitment and retention issues.

The difficulties have been commented on and it has been stated that part of the difficulty in recruiting former public servants relates to the legal situation. I take it that this is the greatest single difficulty and that is why we have the form of recruitment now undertaken. Has Mr. Boyle considered some type of flexible opportunity, such as contractual arrangements or job sharing, as a possible method of re-establishing these people in posts and ensuring that people who have passed all the tests, some of whom may have been outside for a significant number of years and some for not so many years, could be brought back in? Has this been considered, particularly in light of the fact that there are vacancies and a need? Many of these people have proven track records and it would not be that difficult to confirm many of the necessary issues concerning the employment of such people in the public service.

Mr. Boyle

Yes. That is one of the options being considered in the ongoing review of recruitment policy. Policy is not part of my remit, but all I can say is that this issue is being considered in the policy arena. It is quite possible that this will be one of the measures we would take in the not too distant future, depending on policy decisions, to seek to address part of the challenge in the recruitment market. It behoves us to look at all avenues and all sectors to ensure that we are in a position to continue to attract our share of talent in the marketplace. That certainly is one possibility. There is an option of a modified selection process for people who formerly worked in the Civil Service.

The Comptroller and Auditor General has congratulated Mr. Dalton and Mr. Egan on the matter of dealing with stores and the stores difficulty. I take it that this issue is well under control, that the matter has been satisfactorily resolved and that a repetition or failure is unlikely?

Mr. Dalton

It has. I have submitted three reports to the committee. I would be glad if any member wants to look at the situation again. It has been resolved. We decided to put an action plan in place to deliver various proposals which had been around. We delivered on those and have done so on time. I am glad to say that this has turned around.

I join with the Comptroller and Auditor General in congratulating Mr. Dalton and Assistant Commissioner Egan on the success in this area.

Mr. Dalton

I thank the Deputy.

Is there any plan to deal strategically and adequately with the ever increasing cost of overtime in the Prison Service? I know there are difficulties in achieving what is probably desirable but this issue causes ripples elsewhere.

Mr. Dalton

It does and it is, and has been, the source of constant difficulty. On the Garda side the story this year is good in that the figures are coming down and we are on target for lower figures. On the prison side we have an expert cost review group working on this issue. We have engaged the services of an internationally recognised expert, Mr. Gordon Lakes, from the Council of Europe. He has advised us, and it is a fairly universal experience, that there is only one way to do this and that is to decide on a post by post basis whether one needs the post or not. That exercise is ongoing. I am confident that this process will begin to yield positive results. I do not know whether we will see them all this year. In fact, we will not; it is likely to be next year. However, I would be surprised if there is no reduction in prison overtime this year.

Many things have been done. Governors have been given allocations and are obliged to keep an eye on those allocations. We are going to have a slight difficulty in that we are recruiting about 800 extra people for the extra prison places. Again, because of the difficulty with recruitment generally, the recruitment process will fall a little behind the availability of spaces. This means that those spaces have to be carried on overtime. That will remain a problem for another period but not, I hope, into next year.

Sitting suspended at 10.42 a.m. and resumed at 10.52 a.m.

I note that the end of Mr. Dalton's letter concerns Garda pay and overtime in comparison with the New York and Scottish police. The letter states that our budget per person is £46,300 compared with $65,400 in New York - about comparable. The Scottish rate in considerably less at £28,200. Is it considered that pay rates for gardaí are in line with, or better than, comparable forces, particularly in Europe and the US?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have figures beyond those mentioned which include overtime. This suggests that they end up better paid. I do not know the comparison on basic rates.

Has the possibility or the danger of a recurrence of the "blue flu" epidemic disappeared entirely? Have we eliminated the symptoms or obtained the cure?

Mr. Dalton

I think that, while the virus is not rampant, it certainly has not died. We are still in discussions with the Garda associations about what they call phase II, in other words, further payment based on productivity which involves civilianisation, computerisation and so on. We have reached an understanding on all these issues - civilianisation, rostering and computerisation, particularly the very expensive PULSE programme. However, we have not been able to bridge the gap between their expectations and our possibilities.

We paid 2 per cent on the last occasion on account of future productivity, in other words, the 9 per cent paid included 5.5 per cent for the PCW, 1.5 per cent for productivity already achieved and 2 per cent for future productivity. The various items on which we have reached an understanding involve an element of productivity. However, their expectations of what was involved were far greater than ours so the matter has gone to adjudication.

When will the results of the adjudication be known?

Mr. Dalton

My understanding is that the first meeting takes place in June. I would not expect it to take terribly long - I would say June/July possibly.

Who is the adjudicator?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have that information. I do not think the names have been agreed with the parties concerned. The matter will begin in June. Both sides are ready to go ahead with it.

So the possibility of a recurrence has not disappeared?

Mr. Dalton

It has not disappeared but I would say it has considerably diminished.

I wish to raise an issue which caused some bother in Galway city. The legitimate claims of the city were once again ignored in the recent allocation of new Garda recruits. Why should that be so? What system is used for allocating new recruits to stations? This comes back to the matter raised by Deputy Doherty about the possibility of releasing gardaí as some duties will be taken over by civilians.

Mr. Dalton

I am not aware of any particular reason Galway should not have had its fair share of recruits. I do not have the figures so I am not in a position to dispute this matter. Assistant Commissioner Egan may be in a position to comment on it.

We did not get any of the new recruits. The chief superintendent in Galway has looked for 24 new appointments for the past two years. We are not making any progress despite the fact that the city is expanding and has its problems.

Mr. Dalton

I will have to come back to the committee on that issue.

As regards the deployment of resources, I was recently in court in Galway and noticed at least 20 to 30 uniformed gardaí waiting all day to be called as witnesses or to give evidence. Some of the cases were not called. Can we not instigate a better system which does not tie up valuable Garda time waiting in courthouses? If this is happening in Galway it is happening all over the country. This is completely unnecessary when valuable time could be deployed on other Garda duties.

Mr. Dalton

That issue was tackled by the Minister in, if I remember correctly, the Criminal Justice Act, 1997. One of the principal provisions of that Act was that it would not be necessary for individual gardaí to go to court in future to give evidence of arrest, charge and caution, which is what many of them are there for.

The application of this Act ran into some difficulty because of, as far as I can recall, a High Court ruling. We had to go back to the other arrangement. That matter has been resolved so that the effects of the legislation will begin to be noticed very soon. One will not have the previous situation. Under the new arrangements it is possible for a sergeant to go to court with certificates from individual gardaí which give details of arrest, charge and caution. We expect this to significantly cut down on the loss of resources.

Initially this process was in operation in, I think, Bray and Kilmainham. The results were quite positive in that Garda overtime fell quite significantly. It is now back on track so, in a few months, we should be able to give an account of how it is proceeding.

I would like Mr. Dalton to report back on this issue. It is a good development as it was obvious to the general public and everyone else that it was a very bad use of valuable resources to have people waiting around for seven and eight hours or having to come back the next time the court was sitting to do exactly the same thing. There was no order to the system and I would welcome the new system if it can be implemented.

Mr. Dalton

It is worth making the point that the new Courts Service will formally begin taking responsibility for the courts in August. At the moment, there is a chief executive designate and the board is in embryonic form. All those issues will be focused on in a new way when that body takes over.

Could you comment on the difference between the budget per person for a Garda in Ireland compared to the equivalent in Scotland which is currently £46,300 versus £28,200? What is the difference in duties or what is the significance of the disparity in the figures?

Mr. Dalton

Offhand, without studying the matter, I cannot say. On the face of it, it would merely seem that gardaí are better paid here than in Scotland. I am not in a position to offer any other comment on the matter.

Did the blue flu affect matters?

Mr. Dalton

The overtime factor may be significant.

The overtime factor is not a big thing; it is only £3,500 as against £2,200.

Mr. Dalton

It seems the gardaí are better paid than their Scottish counterparts.

In relation to the filling of vacancies in the public service generally, Deputy Doherty asked whether staff were being lost to the private sector. Can you provide any further details on the extent of the loss and its cause and whether any trends have been established?

Mr. Boyle

We have undertaken a project to study this area specifically to find out the story behind the number of vacancies being notified to us by various Departments. This will range over a number of issues, such as eliciting the number of people selected for appointment who fail to take up their duties, the number of people leaving the Civil Service and for what reason, the number of people taking up options such as job-sharing and career breaks, the number of vacancies arising from retirement and resignation and the extent to which people are leaving to take up employment in the private sector. I would be happy to provide information to the committee when the study is completed. However, I cannot be of much assistance on the matter at this point. A limited study which has been carried out indicates that something of the order of 25 per cent of people selected for appointment do not accept the offers.

Has a system ever been put in place whereby people leaving the public service - apart from transferring to another branch - are asked why they are leaving? If people leave banks or other employment, they are usually asked why they want to leave. Has that ever happened in the public service?

Mr. Boyle

It is happening but not in a structured or systematic way. We are recruiting a workforce spanning 30 or 40 organisations and 28,000 or 29,000 staff. The study currently being carried out will seek to impose some structure in regard to exit interviews and the issues people departing the service are raising. The findings will be of assistance to us in designing recruitment systems and personnel policies.

Have promotional prospects ever been identified as a possible disincentive to retaining people within the system?

Mr. Boyle

Some preliminary feedback on a survey of attitudes to the Civil Service suggests, although this is not conclusive, that the modern jobseeker wants greater flexibility in terms of contracts of employment and work incentives. That would include promotion systems. I have no conclusive data on that.

When will the report be completed?

Mr. Boyle

The attitude survey will be available at the end of June. I do not have a completion date on the survey on manpower trends.

Will it cover the entire public service?

Mr. Boyle

It will focus on the Civil Service.

The issue of Garda stores was a perennial one for this committee. A paragraph of the report is devoted to it. What is the current position on queries previously raised on this matter? I refer to the recommendation in regard to the centralising of stores and purchasing functions, the introduction of restructuring procedures and the carrying out of a functional reorganisation to enhance the computer system pending its eventual replacement, the introduction of an adequate number of properly trained staff and the adoption of a professional attitude to the purchasing of supplies. To what extent has all that been achieved?

Mr. Dalton

It has all been achieved apart from two items. Some staff restructuring remains to be done but the most important development relates to the centralisation of stores in Santry. That process is quite advanced in so far as we are in a position to proceed with it and the Office of Public Works has the necessary funding. I understand that by the end of this year or early next year, all stores will be centralised in Santry. All the other issues raised by the committee have been addressed.

It is stated on page 40 that some stores failed to differentiate between new and used goods. Some items which were used for a period were returned, stored and recorded at a similar value as new items.

Mr. Dalton

That no longer happens.

It is also stated that random stock checks were carried out and in several cases stock recorded on the system was not available in the stores.

Mr. Dalton

That has been addressed.

What about incorrect stock valuations?

Mr. Dalton

That is gone.

Radio stores still hold stock purchased several years ago for a specific purpose, for example, two CCTV cameras purchased in 1994-5 at a cost of £12,000 each for use in Cork prison. They have remained unused in stock.

Mr. Dalton

I do not know what exactly happened to them. Everything which was obsolete in stores is gone and anything which becomes obsolete in future will be sold off through proper procedures. A just in time purchasing system is in place and a systematic basis has been established for the identification of obsolete goods.

What was the purpose of purchasing those cameras in the first instance?

Mr. Dalton

I cannot recall. I believe it is outlined in the report but I cannot find it at the moment. One was intended for use in Cork prison.

Just for general monitoring?

Mr. Dalton

Yes, but it was not used. The cameras were purchased for purposes which were not realised and were then held as spares.

What is the position in regard to the use of cameras during interrogation?

Mr. Dalton

That has been going on for some time and the Government is due to prepare a full proposal on the issue within a number of weeks. A pilot scheme was put in place in 1992. It was not a success simply because the people being questioned did not want to use cameras.

Mr. Dalton

People being questioned are naturally suspicious about answering questions on camera. There is a fear that the tape might end up somewhere which might not be helpful to their futures, especially if they are giving information to the gardaí about others. That was always a reason for the reluctance to use cameras in cases of subversive or organised crime. One must be absolutely sure that tapes do not fall into the wrong hands. That could prove fatal in some cases.

How do they get round that problem in other jurisdictions?

Mr. Dalton

Video recording is not available in some jurisdictions.

But it is in others.

Mr. Dalton

Under the pilot scheme, we made it compulsory except in very rare circumstances. Arising from that, we are in a better position to judge the merits of video recording, its costs and so on. A proposal will go to Government shortly which will make provision for the extensive use of video recording.

When you say 'extensive', do you mean it will be used in all cases or that its use will merely be extended?

Mr. Dalton

The idea is that it will be used generally.

Will it come into operation in all stations throughout the country at the same time?

Mr. Dalton

It will not necessarily be available in all Garda stations because the equipment is very expensive. People will probably be questioned in particular stations. There would be little point putting very expensive cameras into somewhere like Castlegregory Garda station.

You can never know.

Mr. Dalton

Their use would be more centralised.

I listened to a radio programme recently on which this issue was discussed. If persons under suspicion are interrogated at specific stations, is that likely to lead to other logistical difficulties?

Mr. Dalton

It could, although I cannot be sure at this stage. The Government has not yet signed off on any proposals.

Has the Department indicated its preferences?

Mr. Dalton

If we had our way and were free from all financial constraints, we would put cameras in place everywhere.

So their use would be widespread?

Mr. Dalton

If we were to go down that road at all.

What is the total cost?

Mr. Dalton

I do not know; it would be in the regions of millions of pounds.

Did the Department carry out a cost analysis in its evaluation of the project in the first instance?

Mr. Dalton

Yes, but the total cost would depend on the number of cameras one would put in. A committee has reported on the matter recently but I do not have details here.

Surely an evaluation should be undertaken which would identify the number of stations likely to be furnished with the equipment, the cost per unit and the total cost?

Mr. Dalton

The entire proposition must go to Government first; I would prefer to await its consideration before discussing the figures.

I presume a full evaluation is being carried out.

Mr. Dalton

Yes.

There is some debate about cameras which were purchased but not used. Mr. Dalton says that charged persons were anxious that their statements would not be recorded.

Mr. Dalton

That is what the judges' committee - under the chairmanship of Edmund Smyth - found. They were unhappy with the level of take-up of the video recording; that is why we introduced regulations to make video recording compulsory. There are some exceptions under the regulations for cases in which it is manifestly inappropriate that video recordings would be made.

On the number of gardaí per 1,000 of the population, how do we compare with our European counterparts?

Mr. Dalton

We are in line with the average. When comparing such figures, one must bear in mind that we do not have separate forces as they do in other jurisdictions. We do not have a secret service comprising organisations such as MI5 and MI6. That is highly irrelevant because the Garda deal with many of the issues a secret service would address.

Will the Secretary General explain why only £371,000 was spent on the Refugee Board bearing in mind that this is an area in which the Department has been criticised? A total of £931,000 was provided in the Estimate but only £371,000 was spent.

Mr. Dalton

I understand that the figure results primarily from delays in recruiting people to work in the refugee area. Some of those delays arose from industrial relations problems but they have now been resolved. We intended to recruit a very large number of people; 72 people were recruited initially and the figure is now 140. The office is up and running in Mount Street. Medical services, legal aid and other aspects of the refugee process are dealt with in a one-stop-shop approach. I visited the premises recently. The office is highly automated and is worth visiting. Perhaps some Members of the committee might wish to visit it at some stage.

We might take you up on that offer. What is the average timescale for processing a refugee application? Why does the process take so long?

Mr. Dalton

It was a taking a long time primarily because we did not have sufficient staff. From 1996 onwards, we were confronted with an unprecedented level of refugee intake. In 1991, we received 31 applications and the figure remained relatively steady until 1994 in which we had 362 applications. Last year, the figure was 4,626. I anticipate that it will be even higher this year.

What are the latest figures for this year?

Mr. Dalton

Up until the 31 March, the figure was 826. That does not seem very high.

The figure is down on last year.

Mr. Dalton

The figures tend to fluctuate for a number of reasons. There may be an upsurge later in the year. If the rules in the UK were to be changed or tightened, one could take it for granted that there would be an automatic response here. We have approximately 6,000 cases on hand currently. Considerable delays were experienced in reaching first interview stage. Matters have improved considerably with the extra staff. We are interviewing thousands of people per annum. "No shows" are being experienced in approximately one-third of cases; in other words, people have left the system for reasons we do not understand. There is a variety of possible reasons - people may have entered the black economy, some may have returned to the UK in which they were formerly resident and some may simply have moved on. Of every 3,000 people called for interview, approximately 1,000 fail to turn up. It is difficult to estimate the actual extent of the refugee problem but it is probably in the region of 5,000. By July 2000, we expect that no refugee here for more than 12 months will not have had first contact with the Department.

Are you saying it will be an improvement that people will only have to wait 12 months?

Mr. Dalton

No, we will have dealt with all the arrears of which there are approximately 6,000. By July next year, we hope to have dealt with all of those, together with the first interviews of new cases.

Will those interviews take place within a week or so of the refugees' arrival?

Mr. Dalton

Yes.

There is an impression that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is out of synch with others in this area and is adopting a hard line policy in regard to refugees. What is the Department's attitude to the refugee question? What language is used in regard to refugees?

Mr. Dalton

Over the years, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has had to deal with some difficult images. This is a universal experience among justice and interior ministries throughout Europe; we are not specially bred for fascism. Our job is a difficult one. We are left with the end of the stick which others do not want to handle. We apply the law in as humanitarian a way as possible.

In spite of the images of the Department which exist, most staff are recruited from outside the Department. We do not look for stamps on their foreheads to prove they are fascists. There is a great deal of mythology surrounding this issue. The Department had a relatively hard line image in the 1960s but the system has changed quite a lot internally since then. I do not know how any other Department would have dealt with a situation where it was suddenly faced with legal provisions - laid down by the Oireachtas - which state that illegal immigration is not permissible.

There is a great deal of confusion about refugee status and illegal immigration. The UNHCR constantly urges us to respect the concept of refugee and not to allow illegal immigration. There appears to be a deliberately confused message out there that we are treating refugees badly. In fact, only about 10 per cent of the people who come to Ireland seeking refugee status satisfy UNHCR criteria for such status.

In other words, 90 per cent are illegal immigrants.

Mr. Dalton

Yes. Of course, many illegal immigrants are in extreme difficulty by virtue of the fact that they are economic migrants. Therefore, they must be properly treated as such. Confusion arises because people think that because people are economic migrants, we are at liberty to ignore the law. Unfortunately, we must follow legal provisions and if people are not legally entitled to be here, we must follow through on that. However, the provisions are not being followed through in a draconian way because many people who do not qualify for refugee status are still resident in Ireland. There is no excessive policy of hunting people down. For example, we do not chase the 1,000 people who fail to turn up for interview.

Any Department or organisation given responsibility to deal with this issue would have been faced with a big problem. We have done our best. We are not in any way illiberal but we must apply the law. We are hopeful that, with all the resources being invested, the situation will improve.

There is a myth at large that it is the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which decides whether someone is a refugee. That is not the case; we operate UNHCR criteria. We are in the unique position of having UNHCR staff working with us in our office in Mount Street. All files are available to them. There is a further myth that the appeals process is handled by the Department when, in fact, independent lawyers deal with it. We have four lawyers at the moment but need many more as a high percentage of people are appealing decisions. There is a great degree of independence; we are under direct UNHCR supervision all day, every day and also have independent lawyers handling appeals. I have read many articles advocating an independent appeals process; it is difficult to conveythe message that the process is already independent.

When I was appointed a Minister, I was warned about the Department from all sides. However, I found that the picture within the Department was completely different. Some 18 years later, the Department's hard line image still exists. Does the Department require image consultants?

Mr. Dalton

We probably do. A study is currently being carried out on the matter. One cannot ignore these matters but it is necessary to be somewhat hard nosed when dealing with difficult issues. There is no point whingeing about it. Some people form their views at 12 or 13 years of age and maintain them no matter what they are told.

That can be very depressing politically. I found tremendous commitment to people's rights within the Department. However, the Department's hard line image persists. It must be very depressing for the staff.

Mr. Dalton

People reach boiling point at times because of comments made about the Department. Recently, we were referred to as "goose stepping Nazis" in one of the Houses. I am long past that stage. One must take the rough with the smooth.

The Department should hire Bunny Carr. When you say that 1,000 asylum seekers drop out of the system, do you mean they stop claiming social welfare payments?

Mr. Dalton

Yes, they do. Some may be working in the black economy. Inspectors are appointed to deal with that; it is not our concern.

Given that there are widespread labour shortages and that FÁS is recruiting staff abroad, is any consideration being given to granting temporary work permits to asylum seekers pending decisions on their applications?

Mr. Dalton

That is still being discussed at political level.

Would it not save money for the Exchequer? Would it not be more dignified to allow people to work?

Mr. Dalton

It would be fairly unique to grant people an automatic right to work. That happens in some countries but decisions are handed down quickly in those instances; some are made at the airport. The powers that be make sure that the people granted the right to work are refugees. If people have not been interviewed within six months in the UK, they are entitled to work. The problem is that the granting of work permits is perceived to reward illegality.

Are we not already awarding illegality by handing out supplementary welfare allowances?

Mr. Dalton

People have a basic entitlement to those.

There is a double standard there. Would it not be preferable to allow able bodied people to take up work temporarily than avail of social welfare payments?

Mr. Dalton

It would be if one could be sure it would not cost a lot more in social welfare payments in the long run. There would tend to be a huge increase in demand if work permits were granted.

Chairmans

The floodgates would be opened.

Mr. Dalton

Yes, I do not want to be seen to be making any political pronouncements on this matter. The issue of whether to grant work permits is a political call.

But there must be some administrative consideration of these issues.

Mr. Dalton

Yes, we spend much time considering all these issues.

This committee's concerns are financial. Of course, as individuals, we have humanitarian concerns also. We are concerned about avoidable costs to the Exchequer, especially if eliminating costs helps people.

Mr. Dalton

I accept that. If 6,000 people, a number of whom are on social welfare, have a right to work irrespective of how they entered the country, and suddenly the number increases to 16,000, this may cause a much greater social welfare problem. This is not paranoia; it has happened elsewhere. I am not saying there is no solution to this problem, just that the solution is within the political domain.

Have there been increasing complaints to the Department concerning racist incidents or comments?

Mr. Dalton

Yes, we are getting more complaints. This is one of the reasons we do not wish to over-emphasise the illegality issue. This could result in everyone who is coloured or unlike ourselves being dubbed as an illegal immigrant. This would be disastrous because racism and the violence demonstrated in other jurisdictions is a huge problem. Racism is a growing problem in certain parts of the city where minority communities have congregated.

Have there been complaints of problems with officialdom in relation to racism?

There have been very few complaints of that nature. From time to time complaints of officiousness arise in any large organisation, but these are very few. All the staff involved in processing asylum applications have been trained by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees. I have taken part in these courses and emphasised to every member of staff the unique personal rights of everyone who comes before them. We police and monitor this process very carefully and we would take the necessary drastic action if we found evidence of racism.

Apart from your Department, given that you are the Department of Equality as well as Justice, are you aware of complaints of other Departments or State agencies being racist either intentionally or unintentionally?

Mr. Dalton

I am not aware of this. We have met representatives of the Nigerian community here and we are available to meet them at any time. They have not made any such complaints.

Are you familiar with a complaint against FÁS? I have received complaints against FÁS who want white people projected as part of their promotion of Ireland for employment. This was specified to a man who is married to an Indonesian lady with Irish-Indonesian children.

Mr. Dalton

I am not aware of this.

What steps are being taken to ensure that the whole public administration is sensitive to the race issue and that it neither intentionally nor unintentionally engages in actions that might give offence on racial grounds?

Mr. Dalton

This is one of the specific responsibilities which will attach to the new equality authority to be established in the near future. The equality authority has appointed a chief executive officer and the aim is to have the authority in existence by September. Overseeing the issue of racism will be one of its specific mandates. The Garda has taken a very positive initiative also in this area. In other jurisdictions, for example, the US and UK, there has been some tension between the police and immigrant minority groups. The Garda held a conference recently to which they invited experts from around the world to give advice. Given that we are becoming a multi-culture society, we must ensure that this is a smooth transition which will protect the rights of individuals. The Garda are to be complimented on the initiative they have taken in this area.

Has any consideration been given to an advertising and educational campaign on this issue? Some of the racism with which I am confronted is unthinking ignorant comment. I believe that when people are confronted with their own racism they change their minds. Is anything being done about this issue at official level?

Mr. Dalton

The equality authority will be dealing with this matter. There may be initiatives at the moment but I will come back to the Chair on this.

I have been shocked by the level of racism in society. We had a picture of a welcoming céad míle fáilte society, but this applies only to some people.

Mr. Dalton

I am not sure if we thought about this because we have not given a céad míle fáilte to itinerants over the years. Therefore, I do not think we have any basis for congratulating ourselves.

I concur with that. We have the attitude that we are a welcoming nation. It is true that we are a nation of friendly people but we are not friendly to everyone.

I understand the Criminal Assets Bureau spent only half of their allocation.

Mr. Dalton

This is because it was not up and running at the time. However, it is up and running now and the budget for this year is in the region of £4 million.

How much has it taken in?

Mr. Dalton

The bureau has obtained 24 interim orders on property to a total of more than £6 million and 19 interlocutory orders on property to a total value of £4.5 million. During that time it demanded in excess of £19 million in the payment of tax and interest from persons suspected of involvement in criminal activity.

Have they got judgment on that?

Mr. Dalton

Yes. They have also stopped welfare payments amounting to approximately £500,000 a year.

Could this be considered a spectacular success?

Mr. Dalton

It is beginning to bite in the right places.

This is one of the most decisive actions we have taken.

Mr. Dalton

This is internationally recognised and is taken as a model of how to deal with this issue.

This has contributed to a decline in crime and all concerned should be congratulated on the wonderful work done.

Mr. Dalton

It has contributed to dispelling the notion of invincibility on the part of serious criminals.

How many individuals have been targeted and how many are concerned about their property, interlocutory injunctions, tax judgments and welfare payments?

Mr. Dalton

I will come back to the Deputy on that because I do not have the figures to hand. It is not a huge number of people but it is well targeted.

The Garda Complaints Board spent less than its allocation. Are garda complaints decreasing?

Mr. Dalton

No, they have increased recently. We are considering various proposals for changing legislation. I am not in a position to say what will happen because the matter is before Government at present.

Could you give an indication of the number of complaints in recent years?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have the figures to hand.

You can let us have the figures before we conclude.

On the question of 3 per cent of positions being made available for people with disabilities, has that level been reached in the Civil Service?

Mr. Boyle

My information is that an average figure of 2.7 per cent has been reached. I am not sure whether these are the up-to-date figures.

Is that 2.7 per cent of people recruited or does it include people who have worked in the Civil Service for years and become ill?

Mr. Boyle

I am not totally familiar with the definition of disability for the purpose of compiling the figures. My recollection is that it includes people serving who would have developed conditions, in addition to newly recruited people.

That was never intended. It was intended that 3 per cent of those recruited would be people with disabilities.

Mr. Cardiff

I cannot speak about the initial intention. However, in terms of monitoring, if a person who was recruited in the past develops a disability, that individual would be regarded as disabled, not only for the purpose of Civil Service statistics but for other purposes. For example, a person who has an accident and ends up in a wheelchair is entitled to be registered as disabled for various other provisions.

That is not what was intended. If an employer has an employee of long standing who becomes ill or invalided, most good employers will retain that person to do light work or work suited to their new circumstances. These people should not be included in the figure of 3 per cent. The State has behaved disgracefully in this area. We set the figure years ago and there is still discrimination against people with disabilities in its recruitment policies. It is difficult to see this policy as being anything other than deliberate. Is there any instruction from the Department of Finance to the Civil Service Commission on the matter?

Mr. Boyle

There are two approaches to this. First, no one with disability is precluded from competing in the normal open competitions. Second, it is Civil Service policy to have within the confines of every open competition an opportunity for people with disabilities who are registered or entitled to be registered with the NRB to compete separately.

Is there any policy of positive discrimination in favour of people with disabilities? The 3 per cent quota agreed 25 years ago has not yet been reached.

Mr. Boyle

From my point of view, the onus is on the individual Departments to monitor and fill their quotas. The Civil Service Commission is in a position to provide people from panels who are registered with the NRB. It does not have a policing role in terms of monitoring.

It seems there is no policy to employ people with disabilities who could live a fulfilling life and who could be of benefit in the public service. Is the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform doing anything about this quota not being reached?

Mr. Dalton

I am not aware that the Department is doing anything about this matter. My Department took on equality issues the year before last and I am not aware of what is happening in specific areas. However, I will come back to the committee on this matter.

On the question of the Criminal Assets Bureau, the numbers involved are quite small, perhaps less than 20 main targets. However, arising from these investigations a number of companies are now being investigated.

The committee does not wish to hear about anything that would be of help to those who are being investigated. I think this is a great initiative.

On the issue of disabilities, would it be possible to get a note within a month from the Department of Finance and the Civil Service Commission why the figure of 3 per cent has not been reached? What changes are being proposed to reach the 3 per cent level?

On capital projects, have there been any changes or improvements since our last meeting?

Mr. Dalton

I am accompanied by representatives from the prisons side. Mr. Finbarr Wall is the architect dealing with the major projects. The position is that the observations of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the criticisms identified are now brought to the notice of all concerned at the beginning of every project. We have not yet built in a set of conditions around this. We have issued a circular to all prisons and those concerned with building projects regarding the controls that should be in place. We now engage in extensive consultation. There is an interdepartmental committee under the chairmanship of an assistant secretary whereby governors, the medical services, the co-ordinator of education, work and training and the staff are asked to submit their views on each project. The main purpose of this is to ensure that everyone is satisfied that what is being built is what they wish to see built and to minimise as much as possible add-ons which are a problem in prisons building projects, not just in this country but internationally. Denis O'Neill told me that he was at a conference recently in the UK and the theme which kept coming up constantly was the problem of subsequent add-ons. This has partly to do with the fact that prisons building projects tend to be quite complex and individual governors and so on get ideas later that they need different protection, etc.

It is like a wife with house improvements.

Mr. Dalton

It is probably not quite as bad but somewhat like it. The major committee was chaired by the late Mr. Coveney when he was in the Office of Public Works. It is now chaired by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. This is the over-arching committee which consists of the assistant secretary with responsibility for prisons, representatives of the Office of Public Works, including the chairman, technical experts and the Department of Finance. Their job was to maintain an over-view on all capital projects. In fact, many detailed proposals are referred to them. Proposed add-on expenses would be referred to that committee for a decision. The Office of Public Works is now involved in all major building programmes, which was not the case some years ago. The Department began to engage private consultants for refurbishment and building programmes but recently the Office of Public Works has been handling these matters on our behalf. This is a welcome development because the Office of Public Works has significant expertise on prisons building projects in particular.

There is also provision for on-site meetings and visits. As far as I am aware there is a weekly meeting on the substantial building programme in Portlaoise - Finbarr Wall knows more about this. At £37 million it is the largest ongoing prison project and is being tightly monitored. A number of controls have been put in place to ensure that programmes are on target and stay on budget and, most importantly, that add-on proposals or other variations are vetted carefully before a decision is taken.

Obviously the Office of Public Works deals with more than the Department of e, Equality and Law Reform. What changes have been introduced to monitor, implement and oversee capital projects?

All our capital projects are run under the project management plan which has been developed within the Office of Public Works. The basis of the project management plan is the architect's plan of work. This is being expanded to take into consideration various Civil Service procedures in terms of various approvals to be obtained. All the stages and procedures to be gone through are identified in that plan. While the plan was developed to work the Departments local authority contract, it is broad enough to take in special approaches. With the accelerated prison programme, we appreciate a lot of work needed to be done in a condensed period. We still use the project management plan as the background to this but we have procured some prisons by way of client led design built projects. This is a mixture of approaches which allowed us to telescope and overlap procedures in order to achieve acceleration rather than cutting them and carrying them out in a standard top to tail fashion, which would be the general approach to building projects.

Has this resulted in a noticeable improvement in projects being completed within budget?

Very much so. Many projects have a relatively long gestation period. People talk about them for ten years and get upset when it takes two months to obtain planning permission. In this case the decision was made to provide these additional prison spaces and a steering committee was set up. The role of the Office of Public Works was to give professional and technical assistance to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It was a question of the two Departments meshing together to develop a new approach to make it a client led design built project. A design-built project essentially is when one goes to a contractor to have a particular building provided, you have a brief of that building, and the contractor makes a full bid to design and build it. We found this to be a relatively straightforward approach in terms of design projects such as decentralised offices and so on.

However, prisons are enormously complex buildings - they are a whole world enclosed within a wall. All the functions within the project are so complex that it was decided from a time and money point of view not to go that direction. The approach taken was that the project should be client led which meant that it would be made to measure. The aspects of design built, or construction "buildability", was left to the contractors to bid on. As a result all the projects have come in considerably below budget targets.

I am pleased to hear that, especially in the present climate. Is Mr. Meade happy that there has been an improvement?

Mr. Meade

I would like to put this in context. There is a major political requirement on the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to provide urgent and adequate prison spaces. At the time the Department did not have the technical expertise available to the Office of Public Works. The Department did a good job within these constraints. However, the concern of the Comptroller and Auditor General's office is that one can always throw money at a problem and get work done urgently, but if there is not good planning with proper budgets and benchmarks, one might end up with add-ons being requested, plans not being thought out adequately and inadequate budgets. One always learns from experience but one must respect both the political and public demand which existed in the early 1990s and the need for an adequate response to these demands that more spaces be made available.

The report mentioned two instances. The first is the Curragh project which was carried out urgently. All concerned deserve great praise for putting such a good prison in place. The original cost gestimate for this project was £1.75 million. The tender price came in at £4.8 million and the eventual contract agreed, following much haggling, came in at £3.3 million. It was obvious that the brief was not detailed enough in the beginning. Eventually a good job was done. There was no quantity surveyor appointed to that job. A quantity surveyor should have been appointed to such a major job in order to keep some control on costs.

The Accounting Officer mentioned the worldwide problem of add-ons. In the case of the Portlaoise project, the original contract was for £2.4 million. Soon after the contract began, the governor decided that serveries be put in place. Perhaps I am being unfair, but I believe that should have been obvious from the beginning and should have been part of the overall tender. On the other hand, the prices for the serveries were obtained on the basis of the work costings done on the original tender. Therefore, one could argue that the final price would not have been different. However, this meant that the overall plan for the job was not effective enough. We then gave the Accounting Officer formal and informal indications as to how matters could be improved. While audit, by its nature, raises matters of a particular nature, it also tries - and I hope succeeds - to indicate to Departments how matters can be improved. While one recognises that an audit might want pristine conditions, a Department must operate within its capabilities. The Department has taken on board many of our recommendations.

On the Office of Public Works and the project management plan, that was a response to the major problems that arose during the 1980s when projects went way off the wall and there were horrendous cost overruns, such as in the case of the Kildare Street building. There were also major overruns in the case of Portlaoise Prison with doors that were not needed being bought and so on. The project management plan was an adequate response to these major cost overruns. It was also a response to ensure that the guidelines laid down by the Department of Finance in 1982 and later in 1992 were put in place. The plan worked well but there have been instances which have been discussed here on occasions.

The Ship Street building in Dublin Castle turned out to be a beautiful job, but it went from £8 million to £10 million. There were problems with the overall planning and execution of Collins Barracks.

Improvements have taken place and projects are coming in within budget; this is welcome. We are dealing with a possible £30 million to £50 million, and capital projects, in the public or private sectors or within one's own home, can run away with themselves if they are not properly planned, managed, controlled and supervised. If nothing else came out of the discussions on the last day and the matters we raised with our technical experts and the Department of Justice Equality and Law Reform, and the responses which have been made over the years to these major cost overruns, action is now being taken. In the area of capital projects worldwide, there are dangers. We need speak only of the famous Chunnel and how that went off the rails. We are dealing with a considerable amount of money and margins are tight. Projects must be properly planned and controlled.

In summary, progress has been made but it is an area of audit at which we look every year. We look at projects which have been concluded, are in the course of execution and which are nearing completion. We are also considering - we will have planning meetings within the next few weeks - doing an overview of the overall operation as things have gone wrong with individual projects. This does not apply solely to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform but also to the Office of Public Works, the health boards and the Department of Education and Science. We are considering doing an overview but it will not be a small job. It will take a long time because we are dealing with complex matters. Building a hospital is completely different to building a prison which is completely different to renovating this room.

Some principles are the same. Are you going to do a book called "How not to do it".

Mr. Meade

No, because auditors do not have the expertise on various technical matters. We would rather call it "How to do it".

There are groups of experts, management consultants, who specialise precisely in that area and offer their services with the potential reduction of up to 25 per cent in the overall cost without cutting corners.

We already discussed this in some detail some time ago. Has the Department of Finance anything to say? Are there new guidelines on capital project management? Are there new procedures?

Mr. O’Farrell

Not to my knowledge on the contracting side. In the evaluation of all capital projects, guidelines were issued. I do not believe monitoring applies at the contract stage or ensuring the delivery of value for money at the end of the project. Perhaps Mr. Wall from the Office of Public Works will comment on that.

On the overall principle of construction, the project management plan in our approach to all projects is that we start by working to certain cost norms which have been developed over the years. We develop an estimate based on that and do an all in estimate. The difficulty was that some years ago people did construction cost estimates. There is a bigger picture involving project cost estimate. One must include all the other factors, such as projected inflation. The nature of contracts is such that one of the first clauses in a contract is the price variation clause. If it is not signalled in advance that such a thing exists, people will end up asking why it cost 3 per cent more at the end of a project. Our cost estimates have been hugely improved and are much more accurate because we do an overall project estimate and not only construction costs. We have been more successful in that regard.

The other thing which helps us considerably is that traditionally we obtained a brief from a Department asking us to provide a schedule of accommodation. Perhaps we have not been in on the thinking behind such a schedule of accommodation. Sometimes that does not matter too much if what is proposed in a building is not a complex matter but if it is, it could result in buildings which would be looser fit and, therefore, more expensive. In terms of construction costs, if one makes a building 5 per cent or 10 per cent too large, the functions will operate but the cost will go up by that proportionate amount.

We were involved in the prisons programme because it was an accelerated one. We were not presented with a brief like a schedule of accommodation. We were in on the thinking behind it. We attended all the meetings of the various interest groups within the prisons - the psychiatrists, the prison officers, the education officers and so on. Interested parties always present wish lists and it is up to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to filter out the difference between what was wished for and what was sensible. We knew the thinking behind it and, as a result, in terms of the design, the construction cost per prison place has improved greatly. The buildings are leaner from a design point of view. It is at the design stage that these problems are solved rather than during the construction stage when people will say that is not what they meant and will look for something different. One wants to sort that out at the initial stage because that is the sensible stage at which to start. The accelerated prisons programme has been a success in that regard because we have had, and continue to have, that consultation with the Department.

We seem to be reporting progress on these issues. I am grateful that is the case and would like to thank the Secretary General for taking on board the issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the committee.

Having said that, there is one area about which I have to be cross. The Department's record in replying to parliamentary questions is the worst. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform breaks the parliamentary deadline more often then any other Department. It is the most consistent offender in terms of late submission of parliamentary replies. It is generally close to 6 p.m. before replies are received. There was an occasion recently when they were not received until 8 p.m. The deadline set by the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas for receipt of written replies is 3 p.m. Replies to parliamentary questions should be made available to Members who table a question immediately on the conclusion of Question Time.

Mr. Dalton

It is not satisfactory. By way of a plea of mitigation, we are probably the most questioned Department and get a huge number of questions for which there may be good reasons. It is also a Department in which many questions may be generated by things which literally happen within the hour. I am not advancing this as an excuse. While oral questions come in on time, the major problem with the written questions is that we frequently depend on information from the gardaí, the prisons and so on and, inevitably, when it must go through a few hands, there is a delay.

I started an investigation into this issue in the Department. Whether coincidental or not, the investigation has not shown very much so far because the questions came in on time during the period of investigation. We are conscious of this matter and even yesterday there were further delays of which I am aware. We are trying to improve. We have to improve on it because there are set timescales. We will do our best.

The Department must meet these deadlines. The main weapon of parliamentary accountability is the parliamentary question. One of the fundamental rights of Members is that they get replies on time. The committee has taken this up with every Department because this habit was widespread. The situation has improved across the board. The Department is still the latest in replying and it is the only one not sending its replies electronically.

Mr. Dalton

We are going to address that shortly also. I do not have a date for it but we will do that. I regret this, Chairman, and I fully accept your point, that it is a vital requirement and it is a right of democratically elected people to have their information on time. We will do our absolute best with it. I hope to be able to report progress to the committee soon.

Many of the tribunals were set up because of the failure of parliamentary accountability through parliamentary questions, etc. That is why we are so concerned about it. I accept your promise. I will give you a nine out of ten rating. There have been big improvements and the committee is grateful for that.

The committee notes Votes 19 to 23, inclusive, and Vote 33 - Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. As there are no questions on the Civil Service Commission, the committee also notes Vote 16 - Civil Service Commission. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee went into private session at 12.12 p.m. and adjourned at 12.13 p.m.

Barr
Roinn