We are now in public session to deal with the 1998 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Vote 35 - Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation. I welcome the Secretary General of the Department, Ms Margaret Hayes, and I ask her to introduce her accompanying officials.
1998 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.
Vote 35 - Tourism, Sport and Recreation.
Ms M. Hayes (Secretary General, Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation) called and examined.
Ms Hayes
I am accompanied by Mr. Con Considine and Mr. Gerald Banville from our finance unit and Mr. Ray Henry from our drugs section. The Department of Finance is represented by Mr. Tony Gallagher and Mr. Eugene Barry.
I welcome you all to the Committee. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce this Vote.
Mr. Purcell
There are no matters arising in my report in relation to this Vote. The Vote is well reflected in the title, Tourism, Sport and Recreation. Expenditure under the Vote is directed primarily at the promotion of tourism and sports related activities. From the tourism point of view, one third of the Vote goes to Bord Fáilte in one way or another, while sports related activities received £23 million. Almost 100 % of the sports related expenditure was funded from the national lottery. The balance expended on the Vote was £3.7 million for administration expenses and a further £26 million was spent under a number of other services under Subheads D1, D2, D3 and D4. They are the local development urban initiative, the programme for peace and reconciliation and the drugs initiative, which the Committee has referred to on other occasions.
I remind witnesses of the provisions of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, particularly section 10. Do you, Ms Hayes, wish to make a brief opening statement?
Ms Hayes
As the Comptroller and Auditor General said, there is nothing to report on the Vote for 1998 which was a busy year for the Department. We were established in July 1997 and there was a settling in period over the initial six months - 1998 marked the first full and busy operation of the new Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation.
As regards the allocation of £23 million under the national lottery, what is the assessment procedure in the Department and is there a system in place to allocate the money between the different counties?
Ms Hayes
The basic assessment is on the basis of individual applications. The closing date for assessment of the 1998 round of applications was 11 February 1998. As far as we were concerned, that date marked the end of the old sports capital programme because up to then the scheme had run on an open basis. Applications, some of which went back to 1993 and 1994, were left open and each year applications which were not approved in the previous year would roll into the next year and there were continual assessments. Applications going back a number of years were assessed again in February 1998.
The criteria, which were set out in the old scheme, included looking at the merits of the application, the level of local community funding available, the need for the particular facility in the area and the case made for the facility. In 1998 the 1,400 applications still outstanding on 11 February were fully assessed in accordance with the criteria I listed and the sports unit carried out its assessment. It gave a rating in respect of each of the 1,400 applications. Following the examination and assessment of all the applications, grants totalling £5.95 million were allocated in April 1998 to 246 of the 1,400 projects. As regards the counties chosen, the population spread is taken into account. However, the ultimate decision on whether a project is grant aided depends on the case made on the application.
Population is only a factor.
Ms Hayes
It is not the sole factor. It depends on the merits of the case made on the application form.
Is the rating system for assessing applications available to applicants, who are not successful, to see how their project was rated?
Ms Hayes
It is. At the closure of the old scheme in 1998 we carried out a complete review of the sports capital programme. We discussed it the last time I was before the Committee. New guidelines were issued and new simplified and more direct procedures were set out. The new programme was advertised in December 1998, assessments were made earlier this year and decisions were announced in mid-year. Each applicant, whether they were successful or not, was invited to contact the sports unit which would give them details of their assessment and their ratings.
Is a list produced - for example, from one to 1,200 - which allows unsuccessful applicants to discover the ranking they attained?
Ms Hayes
No, they do not produce a list - one to 1,400, or as it would have been under the latest allocations, one to 1,900 - but what they do is give the ratings and explanation as to where the application may have fallen down and what were the weaknesses in the application. Approval letters went out as well as letters indicating that people were not successful. Each unsuccessful applicant was given an outline of why their application failed on this occasion and they were also invited to contact the sports unit for any further details regarding the assessment of their application form. We will continue with that process from now on.
Did any county receive allocations under the national lottery which appeared excessive when compared to its per capita population?
Ms Hayes
There has never been an even allocation which you can relate directly and say, for example, "Cork accounts for 15 per cent of the population, therefore, they have got 15 per cent of the allocation". It would never work out like that nor did it this time because it ultimately depends on the number of applicants that come in from the county, the merits of the application and the level of facilities already in place in each of the counties. So there are other factors that come into play. There would not be any automatic link and there is not an automatic allocation for each county and then applicants for the county compete for that.
I am more familiar with my county than with any other and its allocation, perhaps with the exception of a small cost of living increase, has not changed during the past five years. I know a huge number of allocations have emanated from my county and I am sure the same is true of every county
Ms Hayes
Nineteen hundred.
Yes. That would make me believe that, given the number of applications per county, allocations per county would be quite close to the per capita population.
Ms Hayes
If I give you the new criteria which applied under this year's round and which will apply this year, I will give you an idea of the kind of factors under which each application is considered and you will see how the unevenness may emerge.
The criteria focus on the extent to which the project, in terms of growth targets, will increase the levels of active participation in sport and recreational sport or result in improved standards of sporting performance and how such increases can be measured; the extent to which the project, in terms of growth targets, will serve to increase participation in disadvantaged areas - so there is an in-built priority under the scheme for disadvantaged areas; the technical merits of the project - whether the project complies with standard technical specifications from the relevant governing body and statutory authorities; the financial viability of the project - in addition to lottery funding whether the club or organisation has sufficient funds or firm commitments for funding to complete the project within a realistic timeframe; the level of local funding available; how realistic the projections of income from the project are; the extent to which the applicant will be able to maintain the project after completion - this is critical because this is a capital scheme and if you build the facility and there is no utilisation plan and it just stands there under-utilised well then the scheme has failed; the level of social, economic disadvantage in the area; the current and planned levels of sport or recreational sport facilities in the area; the need to achieve an equitable geographic spread of funds, having regard to the range of existing facilities in each county - this is just one criterion but there is a tendency to focus in on it; and the extent to which applicants have consulted with other clubs, community groups, schools and local authorities in developing their proposals. There are a few more on the list but I think they are all pretty clear.
Would it be possible to circulate copies of the list to Members?
Ms Hayes
I think what we can do is that we are just printing the year 2000 guidelines and application forms which we hope to put on our new website to give applicants speedier access to the form and we circulate——
Do they gain additional marks if they apply by e-mail?
Ms Hayes
We hope that this is the beginning of a process that may ultimately lead to easier and swifter assessment because the priority now is that we have the system in place to issue decisions earlier and more quickly in order to give the promoting groups a chance to start their projects in the year in which they receive their allocation.
I accept Ms Hayes comments in respect of the criteria. I am again surprised, however, because I live in what is regarded as a very disadvantaged county but that fact was not reflected in terms of an increase in the allocation received by the county. Ms Hayes made reference to the hundreds of applications received in recent years. Were those applicants informed in writing that if they did not spend the money within 12 months that the grant would no longer be forthcoming?
Ms Hayes
That was not the case in the past, but it is a condition of the new scheme that if you have not made progress on your project within 12 months of the allocation we will review the situation to see what are the prospects of its being completed within a reasonable timeframe. If we did not do that, the allocation would be made and we could not consider decomitting it and looking, perhaps, at another project which could proceed more quickly. However, it does not rule out the possibility or the probability that if you decommit the money because progress is not being made that they may come back under another round with the same project when they are in a better position to complete it.
Is money which was allocated five years ago still tied up in projects?
Ms Hayes
No, we unlocked that. The scheme is now operating at optimum efficiency in terms of processing. As you know, there has been an significant injection of additional moneys into the scheme which allowed us to practically double the number of projects that were approved this year.
This year's allocation was made in two phases.
Ms Hayes
It was, yes.
Will the same system be used next year?
Ms Hayes
There were two different categories of projects. The bulk of them went out to the normal local sports projects but since there were a number of applications in respect of pretty large developments we decided we would have to treat them separately because of the amount of moneys sought. We also decided to consult with the governing bodies because they would have to operate at a level higher than local projects and they would require operation either at county or regional level and, therefore, the governing bodies' plans for locations of games or use as training facilities were an important factor in deciding whether they were viable or not. That was the explanation for the second tranche.
Under C.4, Accounts - grants for provision of major sports facilities - there is an estimate of £3 million and an outturn of £2.3 million. What was the reason for that?
Ms Hayes
Once the allocations are made, the grants approved and the applicants notified, the speed at which the draw-down takes place is determined by the speed at which the projects get up and running and expenditure is actually incurred. The projects have taken some time to get up and running so what you have there is the fact that at the beginning of the year we thought, on the basis of the commitments already in place under the scheme, we would spend approximately £3 million. As it turned out we only received applications for draw-down to the level of the amount to which the Deputy referred under C.4. The commitments are still in place and we are confident that the projects will proceed. It really depends on the promoters and at ground level people run into problems they do not anticipate such as planning permission, difficulty in getting contractors, site acquisition - all these issue arise.
When you get the new guidelines, you may notice that we are trying to anticipate that now by asking people to look at their planning requirements before they apply in respect of a project in order to give us an idea of where they stand in relation to obtaining contractor capability, etc. The revamp of the scheme has been designed to speed up the process of development.
With which projects is that section concerned?
Ms Hayes
There is a commitment of about £10 million under the scheme, there is a long list of projects. There were commitments totalling £11.372 million at the end of 1998.
How many projects did that involve?
Ms Hayes
I do not have an exact figure but I would suspect a few hundred.
Under C.6 - grants for the provision and renovation of swimming pools - the estimate was £3 million but only £2.5 million was spent, which is extraordinary. Last year we were informed that £50 million was required to upgrade swimming pools throughout the country. What is the reason for that money not being spent? During the year the Minister announced £35 million funding for swimming pools. How will that operate and over what timescale?
Ms Hayes
That scheme transferred to us from the Department of the Environment and Local Government. We are basically talking about local authority swimming pools. Again, the commitments far exceed the amounts paid out in 1998. It reflects the progress on design - how long it takes to design a swimming pool, to get contracting capability and to get the project completed.
In the case of the additional allocation, under the scheme up to now the main emphasis had been on the development of new swimming pools. As the Deputy is probably aware, the major drive towards development of local authority swimming pools dates back to the 1970s and, in a number of cases, no major refurbishment had taken place since then. As soon as responsibility was transferred to us, we commissioned a review of the condition of the local authority stock by ILAM, the Institute for Leisure and Amenity Management, who were advisers to the Department on this. They said that 30 pools throughout the country were badly in need of refurbishment.
We made the case to the Department of Finance and our Minister secured the agreement of the Minister for Finance to put extra money into this programme, specifically for the purpose of refurbishing the existing bank of pools and also providing us with additional money to continue the programme of swimming pool expansion and the development of new pools. However, the emphasis of the additional money is primarily on the refurbishment of existing pools.
Within what timescale will that work be done?
Ms Hayes
We are trying to achieve it over three years. That is ambitious because the work on swimming pools, particularly in the design area, takes a long time. There is a slow lead in. However, the pools that have been prioritised have already been identified, the local authorities have been alerted and they have been told to immediately begin the design and planning stage. We hope that projects will be in a position to start drawing down from the additional money sometime next year.
With regard to the list of local authority pools, were they put in any order?
Ms Hayes
No. They were based on an individual assessment by the experts we brought in to advise us.
Are they all of equal importance in terms of the urgency to have them done? Will they all commence at the one time?
Ms Hayes
It will depend on how quickly the local authorities come to us. I would not be surprised if some were in worse condition than others. However, it depends on the ability of the local authority to get their redevelopment plans in place.
Under D.3, the Programme for Peace and Reconciliation, there was an estimate of £6.4 million and an outturn of £4.7 million. Why was that?
Ms Hayes
The element of this programme for which our Department is responsible deals with community development projects in the Border areas. It is administered by ADM Limited, which is also the administering agency for the local and urban rural development programme. The main issue here is the issue that has arisen in relation to the larger programme. As it is a new concept, getting local communities to work together, to agree projects and to begin the process of drawing down funding is taking some time. However, commitments must be made under this programme and projects approved before the end of this year. ADM Limited says all the money it has been allocated for this purpose will be committed by the end of the year. It will have suitable projects and the money will be drawn down before the close of the programme. There has been a slow but steady pace in getting the programme off the ground because it is a novel concept.
There is no fear of those funds being lost?
Ms Hayes
No.
They will be committed. With regard to the drugs initiative, the estimate was £5 million and the outturn was £3.8 million. We received a detailed report on what is happening under that initiative. Can you explain why the outturn is so low relative to the estimate?
Ms Hayes
We went into depth on this issue at the last two hearings. Rather than cover that territory again, it really comes down to the fact that this was a novel approach which tried to get community involvement in a structured way to address a problem in 13 blackspots. Given the nature of the blackspots, there were few structures in place. There was little community leadership. We were dealing with communities who had been embattled for a number of years, demoralised and so forth. The important thing was to get them engaged and involved in identifying the gaps in the service in their areas, what they believed were the priorities which needed to be addressed. Then there had to be agreement on how they should be addressed and the facilities they required had to be put into place. That has taken some time.
The initiative first began to draw down money in late 1997; 1998 represents the second year and the first full year of operation. The original provision was for £10 million for an annualised programme. Expenditure has only now cumulatively passed that original target. In addition to the difficulties in getting structures in place on the ground and getting the community involved, there have been certain problems with larger projects involving capital investment. These are listed in the note we circulated. A small number of projects have run into planning difficulties and have problems acquiring the necessary premises. However, that is a small number.
Of the overall number of 214, more than 190 of the projects are fully operational. Their evaluation has now begun. A panel of evaluators and a co-ordinator have been appointed. The team that is overseeing the spend under the drugs initiative and the work of the local drugs task forces expect their evaluation will be completed by the end of April next year. That will mark the final step of the initiative and then we will look at where we go from there with it and how many projects are suitable for mainstreaming into the service delivery arrangements for the area.
How would you assess the success or otherwise of the various programmes? The notes refer to a shortage of qualified personnel to deliver proposed programmes. How do you see them operating if there are not enough qualified people to run them?
Ms Hayes
The mid-term evaluation of the initiative was positive. The independent evaluator found that in the 13 areas a great deal of progress had been made in general awareness of the need for community involvement in addressing this problem and in the willingness of communities to come forward. That was in addition to the projects that had been put in place. The general feeling is that the initiative is working and that the important gain has been the process as opposed to the projects. The projects have been the focal points but the process that went into delivering the projects and what communities gained from that process is seen as the major gain. Although the spend does not look great, the process underlining it and getting that spend moving has been the major contribution of the initiative to the communities.
How are the local communities responding? Are they supportive or are they still against many of the centres?
Ms Hayes
The majority have been most responsive. As I indicated in the note, initially one could say there was a degree of scepticism in all areas but the work of the communities, particularly of the drugs task forces and the team in the Department supporting them, has played a major part in turning opinion around. At this stage, one could say there has been an acceptance that communities must have a role in addressing this problem in their areas and that they can play an important role. There will always be pockets of scepticism, reluctance and fear but they are very much in the minority.
My last question relates to inquiries. It is unfortunate that an inquiry was required. Do you foresee anything similar, for example, in relation to drugs in sport perhaps, within the next 12 months?
Ms Hayes
As of now we do not foresee, and are not planning for, an inquiry. We are not aware of any area that requires an urgent inquiry. In the case of drugs in sport, the Minister this weekend will open a major conference on behalf of the Sports Council at which the council will formally announce the launch of the drugs testing programme. That will start immediately after the launch at the weekend. Testing will begin and results will begin to emerge. At this point, I could not anticipate the level of positive or negative results from that testing programme. If the level is alarmingly high, we will have cause concern, but we have no reason to believe that is the case at this point.
Is the Department satisfied it is acting to the fullest extent on recommendations from past inquiries to ensure nothing like this arises again?
Ms Hayes
Our most significant inquiry has been the Murphy inquiry into the case of child abuse in swimming. I think the Department has taken every step it could possibly take to ensure the implementation of the Murphy recommendations, practically all of which have now been implemented and the bulk of which were directed at the former IASA which has now been reconstituted as the new body, Swim Ireland. His recommendations, with very few exceptions, have been fully taken on board by the new body and, at the same time, the work the Department commissioned on the guidelines on ethics in children's sport has been completed under the aegis of the Sports Council under the chairmanship of Dr. Breda McLeavey. I understand revised guidelines are being completed and they have taken on board the new guidelines which have come from the Department of Health and Children on health board management. The new revamped guidelines take account of the wider issue and the wider lesson we took from the Murphy inquiry. While we felt the lessons and his recommendations were targeted particularly at the swimming, we took the opportunity to alert NGBs of this danger and to revamp our guidelines for NGBs on how they might be better able to put in safeguards and protections for children who participate in sport.
Does the Department expect to attract any major sporting events to the country in the next 12 months or beyond?
Ms Hayes
We have attracted the 2005 Ryder Cup and work is well under way for planning for that event so that we get the maximum benefit in terms of tourism. Marketing began last year at all the major PGA events and we will build on that and it will reach a crescendo around 2004-05. That will probably be our major sporting event. As will be appreciated, when a major sporting event like that is brought in, a long lead-in time is necessary to get the maximum benefit. One needs to invest resources to get the best from it and I think we are doing that.
We also have a successful bid for the Special Olympics. A sum of £5 million has been allocated towards the sponsorship of that event and we are waiting for the organising committee to indicate from where the remainder of the resources will come and how it is progressing on generating income from other sponsorship sources, in addition to the Government's £5 million.
What kind of allocation do we have to make in preparation for the Ryder Cup? Has any money been set aside?
Ms Hayes
In securing the bid, Government, through Bord Fáilte and a number of commercial sponsors, agreed a sponsorship package of £7.5 million to go to the PGA, our element being targeted particularly at the marketing opportunities the PGA would give us at all its leading championships, and obviously the opportunities the commercial sponsors were being given for product placement and so on. Our contribution is £3.9 million which we are paying at something under £500,000 each year and those payments will continue up to 2005. That is the contribution that has secured the Ryder Cup.
I congratulate the Department on having no matters coming to the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
In the accounts under A1 - salaries and wages, the provisional estimate is about £300,000 greater than the outturn. What caused that?
Ms Hayes
The outturn is £300,000. When we submitted the original provision for 1998 payroll costs, - A1 covers salaries, wages and allowances payable in respect of employees working in the Department - we estimated the cost at around £3 million. However, vacancies arising during the year and the difficulty experienced in filling them, and other issues, managed to bring down the outturn to that. It is a saving, and the A1 provision in 1998 included a carryover of £200,000 savings from 1998 on our operational budget.
Did the failure to fill some of the vacancies have any effect on the working of the Department?
Ms Hayes
No, I do not think so. We managed to keep all programmes running, in the case of some divisions, under severe pressure, but all targets were met. This is a problem that happens from time to time, particularly with a relatively young Department where people get the opportunity to transfer to their own counties or homes. That creates vacancies and we have to wait on panels to be formed by the Civil Service Commission.
You hire only Dubliners.
Ms Hayes
We take them as they come from the Civil Service Commission.
Is a person who takes up a position with the Department required to stay a certain length of time?
Ms Hayes
No, there is no obligation to stay with us.
Are transfers freely available?
Ms Hayes
They are not freely available, but we try to accommodate people, in so far as we can, to take up opportunities if they are offered to them.
Is there not a stipulation in accepting a job that, because of training and other matters, the person must remain for a fixed period of time in the Department?
Ms Hayes
No.
On C5, the £7 million grant to the GAA for Croke Park, is this being drawn down on a phased basis and is this according to the way the work is done?
Ms Hayes
It is on the basis of submissions of architecturally certified expenditure on the project. The £7 million was part of a £20 million grant, which was payable in three instalments over three years - £7 million, £7 million and £6 million - for the completion of, I think, phase two of the development of Croke Park.
Is the 1998 figure the first payment?
Ms Hayes
It is, and we made the second payment this year and the £6 million is due next year.
Have all the various allocations in 1998 under Vote 35 been drawn down?
Ms Hayes
That is in respect of the sports grants?
Yes.
Ms Hayes
No, the allocation list represents the new grant approvals made in 1998. A significant portion of those allocations would not have been drawn down by the end of 1998 because work would still be under way on the projects or may not even have started.
I notice that Moycullen sports ground and Oughterard GAA club in my county received £8,000 and £5,000 respectively. I know from my involvement that those were approved before 1998. How could they be approved again in 1998?
Ms Hayes
Does the list to which the Deputy refers relate to grant allocations or grant payments?
Grant allocations. Is it grant payments?
Ms Hayes
If it is the list of grant payments, and the Deputy referred to Moycullen——
It is on page 287.
Ms Hayes
That is a grant payment.
They were allocated previously but paid in——
Ms Hayes
Payments were made on completion of the projects. They are grant payments.
I would not like anyone to claim credit for it in error. Ms Hayes states that one third of the grant goes to Bord Fáilte. What does that go towards?
Ms Hayes
I think about one third of the provision for the entire Vote goes to Bord Fáilte for expenditure on tourism marketing and promotion and for distribution in respect of capital developments. The vast bulk of it goes on marketing and promotional activity.
Are we getting value for money for the vast amount of money that is being allocated to Bord Fáilte for marketing etc.?
Ms Hayes
Because incoming tourism to Ireland has been growing at about twice the European average for the last ten years, and continues to grow at a rate significantly ahead of any of our major competitors, this crude indicator confirms we are getting value for money for the investment we are putting into marketing and promotion.
Okay, but everybody might not agree.
That is for certain.
Everybody might not agree that the number of tourists coming to Ireland is as a result of marketing and promotion. When we go abroad on Oireachtas or local authority business we often find that Ireland is very under-marketed. What is the figure spent on marketing in 1998?
The Secretary General was going to make a point before answering that question.
Ms Hayes
The most effective marketing is often not visible on the streets in our key markets. Quite an amount of marketing activity is done on a low key basis through tour operators making sure brochures are in travel agents' offices and so on. Unless one actually went in and made a travel inquiry one would not be aware of the level and intensity of Bord Fáilte's efforts to get Ireland located at the key point where the holiday decision is made. Consumer advertising is driven by the OTMI campaign.
What is that?
Ms Hayes
The overseas tourism marketing initiative. This is the cross-Border body involving the industry North and South, the two tourist boards and a considerable amount of money from the European Regional Development Fund. It is provided for under B4. They do a lot of consumer advertising through print and television media and so on.
What about Deputy McCormack's question on marketing?
Ms Hayes
On direct marketing, in terms of print and visual presentation and so on, of Bord Fáilte's overall B1, about £17 million goes directly into marketing. That is supplemented by a total spend in 1998 of around £6 million to £7 million - £6 by OTMI on consumer advertising. Then there was the special tourism marketing initiative which involved a number of once-off projects tied around particular events which came to about £2.8 million. There is about £22 million in 1998 with Bord Fáilte having an overhead for its establishment and offices and so on.
Fair enough. Ms Hayes claims it is not easy to establish or to quantify the effects of marketing, but from personal experience, people like us are very under-utilised when we go abroad. I have addressed groups of people in American and elsewhere at breakfasts and dinners and when one asks them how many have been to Ireland or received any marketing promotion about Ireland the response is very little. There should be more liaison between Bord Fáilte and local authority members, Members of the Oireachtas or anyone going abroad who could promote their our own areas - bringing it down to that level. The budget for that is £17 million.
To go back to the facts here, 1998 was the first full year of the new programme. Is it the case that, at the end of the year, all unsuccessful applications are no longer live, and when a new year comes in or when one is dealing with a new year, there has to be new applications?
Ms Hayes
Yes.
Is this not very difficult? Does it not impose another strain? All the bodies are voluntary and amateur with the exception of Croke Park and such places. All the bodies mentioned in these pages are purely voluntary and amateur. If they went to the bother of drawing up applications in 1998 and they were unsuccessful, they have to do the same thing all over again for 1999 or 2000, if they are still unsuccessful.
Ms Hayes
A better way to look at this would be that each year the failed applicants have a chance to reflect on why they failed and to reconsider their projects, revamp them and come back with better applications which would improve and enhance their chances of getting a grant under the next round. Each round is treated separately and it gives every applicant going into the new round the same chance - they all come off the blocks together. If one is a failed applicant for a previous round and one has received guidance on where one might have failed, one actually comes in with an advantage over new people who are coming into the round. The failed applicant has the benefit of having gone through the process before and has seen the obstacles.
Ms Hayes mentioned the factors which are considered, such as increased activity, participation in disadvantaged areas, viability and the level of income that could possibly be generated. All of us dealing at the practical level know there are other factors, including lobbying, cases being presented and so on. It must be very disheartening for an ordinary amateur club seeking £5,000 to complement the £60,000 it has spent on developing a pitch and dressing rooms where there was nothing before, to be told it must go to the expense and bother of preparing its application again. Most of those clubs will revamp the existing application, or the professional people presenting it for them will do so. Could we not have a system whereby they would only have to indicate that they are still interested in next year's grant and give any additional information concerning a factor which might have changed or improved their chances in the meantime?
Ms Hayes
Our concern is to run each round on the basis that every applicant is seen to have started on exactly the same conditions, entered the scheme at exactly the same time and treated in exactly the same way. The easiest way to do that is to run the round, give one's decisions, then look again at the modifications one wants to make to the scheme, advertise it the following year and again invite applications. Applicants who participated in the previous round have the opportunity to speak to the sports unit and go through their unsuccessful applications to see which factors brought them down in the previous assessment and go back and reflect. The new arrangement is better, fairer and gives more support and feedback, and a better chance to each applicant.
Ms Hayes has stated that, ultimately, the allocation of a grant depends on the professionalism of the application.
Ms Hayes
And the merits - not so much the professionalism.
The merits of presenting the application. Professional help will be required by all the small clubs some of which only get £1,000 or £532. In one case in County Leitrim the figure was £250. Having to complete an application seems an awful penalty on such bodies which would not be long spending the potential grant on preparing an application.
Ms Hayes
The grant payment might well be the final payment in respect of a much larger grant, the balance of which may have been paid in previous years. Therefore, it might be misleading to read the figure for 1998 as the total grant.
All right.
Ms Hayes
But on the question of professional presentation, the application form has been simplified quite considerably to take account of the particular factors and needs of smaller groups and local community groups. The application form is now quite simple. The professional input now relates solely to absolute essentials for any project, namely, to prove access to a site and that there is no doubt about the legal entitlements to use the site for the purpose for which grant aid is being provided, to prove that there is a properly designed building which meets the safety requirements, that account has been taken of the need to get planning permission and that arrangements are in place in that regard. These are the minimal statutory requirements which must be met irrespective of our capital programme and the availability of grants. I do not think any group, no matter how small, would need a professional to fill out the current application form, while the professional data we seek would be necessary for any capital development.
Are all unsuccessful applicants at the end of each year notified that it is essential for them to submit a new application if they wish to be considered for the scheme the following year, and are they given the reasons for the failure of their first application? Is a new application form sent to them with this notification?
Ms Hayes
Each applicant is informed at the end of the round as to whether they have been successful. Those who are unsuccessful are informed of the reasons why this is so. In addition, they are issued with an invitation to contact the sports unit and the person who carried out the assessment who will give them any further details on the reason for failure. That arrangement is in place and it worked in 1998 and this year. We do not automatically issue a new application form with the notification of success or failure. We announce the round each year and the closing date and we provide special print runs of forms which include the closing date for the current round. Last June, for example, when people were informed of how they had done under the 1999 round it would not have been possible to enclose a form for the round in 2000. This month we were still working on the guidelines for that form.
Are they clearly notified that to be considered the following year it will be necessary to lodge a new application? Many people contact us as public representatives asking us to check what happened particular applications for sports grants. On checking we find that no current application has been lodged. When we say this to the groups they say they submitted an application, perhaps two years ago. They are not clearly of the opinion that a new application must be submitted each year and it might be as well to notify them of this.
Ms Hayes
I think they are informed, but I will check. Also, there will be a major launch of the year 2000 round, which will hopefully be at the end of this month or in early December as we like to give people a few months to fill out their application forms and consider the types of projects. There will be much publicity around the launch. We hope to have the form on our website with the guidelines. Therefore, we will give wide notification across the community that the scheme is open and the procedures to be followed for those who wish to apply for consideration under the scheme.
With all due respect to a new launch, PR, etc. there will be a big meeting and everybody will be talking the night that Oranmore Karate Club, for example, gets notification that it has not been grant aided this year. If on that night they are notified that it is necessary for the club to submit a new application for the following year, and that the sports unit can be contacted for the reasons the application this year was unsuccessful, the club will straight away get down to the business of applying the following year. I suggest that when a club is being notified of its failure to get a grant it should be informed that it must submit a new application to be considered for a grant the following year.
Ms Hayes
As far as I recollect they have been so told, but I will confirm this.
How many staff has the unit?
Ms Hayes
In 1998 there were 123.5 staff on the payroll at the end of the year.
How many staff deal with assessments in regards to grants and investigations?
Ms Hayes
In the sports unit?
In the sports unit.
Ms Hayes
About ten.
And the unit deals with 1,400 applications?
Ms Hayes
Yes.
I congratulate Ms Hayes and her department because I find the failed applicants get a run down on why and they were unsuccessful which gives them an opportunity when they are applying anew - they know what to do. I think this is a great idea and I compliment the unit on it.
Ms Hayes
I thank the Deputy very much. That was a staff initiative and they put an awful amount of time and effort into detailing assessments.
I speak with regard to Tralee and north Kerry when I say those who carried out assessments were most helpful to the people concerned who received advice. This was a major help to clubs when new applications were being submitted.
Ms Hayes
Again, I thank the Deputy and will pass his compliments on to the team.
I wish to return to tourism services and grant-in-aid for tourism development work. What does grant-in-aid actually mean? The figure for tourism development works is £1.348 million. What works are covered by this figure?
Ms Hayes
It is essentially for capital development on projects owned by the regional tourism authorities. That money would have been spent primarily on upgrading the regional tourism information offices.
Are these offices then vested in the Department?
Ms Hayes
No, they are owned by the regional tourism authorities.
What hold has the Department over the regional tourism authorities?
Ms Hayes
The regional tourism authorities are subsidiaries of Bord Fáilte and report to Bord Fáilte. That is the reporting relationship. We have no direct reporting relationship. We consult with the regional tourism authorities because of the value of their local knowledge.
Has the Department any hold over the properties held by the regional tourism authorities?
Ms Hayes
No. The Department has no vesting proportion in this regard.
Is that not unusual seeing as the Department is providing them with substantial amounts of grant aid?
Ms Hayes
They are providing matching funding from their own resources.
I accept that, but for example Cork-Kerry Tourism has substantial property in Cork.
Ms Hayes
Our main concern is that the facility grant aid continues to be used for the purpose for which it is provided. The central objective of the scheme is to have in place a network of tourism information offices which are attractive and of good quality.
Are there eight regions?
Ms Hayes
I think there are seven.
There are seven now, but there were eight.
Ms Hayes
The mid west region was subsumed into Shannon Development.
The figure under section 2 of the tourism traffic legislation is £32 million. Ms Hayes explained that between £17 million and £22 million is spent on marketing. There are many voluntary bodies throughout the country. Some 32 organisations promote tourism in County Kerry. These organisations are not grant-aided, though they may receive a little assistance through Kerry-Cork tourism. Would it be advantageous if local authorities became involved in the promotion of tourism in their respective counties?
Ms Hayes
Local authorities contribute to the Regional Tourism Authorities and are represented on the boards of the RTAs. Our main policy concern for the role of local authorities in the development of tourism at local level is that they should prioritise the provision of the necessary infrastructure to support product expansion through improved water supply and sewage treatment facilities where necessary. Of great importance is the key critical issue of road access into the regions. While priority has been given to the primary roads system, we are constantly urging the regions and local authorities to look at non-primary roads which are critical to tourism business in smaller towns in the regions. Signposting and back-up for tidy towns committees are issues which must also be looked at. The environment, which is the bedrock of tourism, must be given priority.
Where regional authorities overlap, as happens in Kerry where north Kerry comes under the remit of SFADCo and south Kerry comes under the remit of Cork-Kerry Tourism, would it be a positive step if local authorities had responsibility for the tourism industry in their respective counties? The reason I say this is that it appears Bord Fáilte will achieve the growth rate of 8% this year. Major changes in the tourism industry will take place in the coming years. Regional authorities have done a good job in the past. However, given the reorganisation of local government, would it be a positive step for local authorities to become involved in the promotion of tourism?
Ms Hayes
At the moment Bord Fáilte is carrying out a review of the RTAs. We are awaiting the outcome of that review and the proposals for the future of the RTAs. From our perspective, we believe the RTAs have done a good job. The concept of regions in Irish tourism has worked well. This fits in well with the product base and with the notion of clustering and so on. However, it will be a policy decision as to whether structures should be radically changed and functions reallocated in the manner proposed by the Deputy. As of now, we feel the structure is working well and is making a major contribution to the overall improved performance in the tourism industry in the past ten years.
I accept that, but I am thinking about the future. I accept also that it will be a policy decision but I believe it is now opportune for local authorities to become involved in the tourism industry.
In relation to B6 - SFADCo - its budget was under-spent by approximately £100,000. The estimate for SFADCo was £1,054,000 and the outturn was £904,000. This means that approximately £100,000 was returned.
The 1998 outturn figure does not include £78,000 from Vote 4 for remunerations and pensions on top of the £904,000.
That is approximately £22,000.
Ms Hayes
Yes, that is the shortfall. The savings were identified earlier in the year. These were used to fund a supplementary estimate. The committee will recall that in the end of 1998 there was a supplementary estimate funded to a large extent from savings in our Vote. The small saving was retained within the Vote and was given as an extra allocation to Bord Fáilte towards marketing and promotion.
Does the £78,000 relate to staff pensions and so on?
Ms Hayes
Yes, and to pay increases during the course of the year.
On subhead B.4 - Special Tourism Marketing Initiatives - is the figure of £3.3 million a special allocation?
Ms Hayes
This is a special additional allocation for marketing purposes. It is spent mainly on special events. The main beneficiaries under the 1998 initiative were the Ryder Cup which received £488,000 and the Millennium Festivals Committee. This is a special committee established in 1998, which also runs this year, to oversee Ireland's millennium celebrations and the organisational arrangements for this. Bord Fáilte is marketing a number of special events. It received an additional £1.597,000 under that subhead. There was a special tourism marketing initiative directed at the regions. That drew down £265,500. This is where the expenditure went.
On National Sports Organisation Grants, the figure for the Irish Basketball Association amounts to £192,304. When compared to some of the other organisations, this figure seems low. Can that figure be increased given that great work is being done in the new stadium in Tallaght?
Ms Hayes
The NGBs are funded on an application system. In this case the applications are not considered by the sports unit. Prior to the establishment of the statutory sports council, the ad hoc sports council acted as an advisory group to the Minister. It looked at all the applications from the NGBs and considered their needs under a number of headings such as administration, organisational development, international commitments, particularly where they are involved in sending teams to major international events. Each year, on the basis of the needs of the NGB as presented to them, they allocate the money. I am not familiar with the basketball case. It may be that the association had international commitments in 1998.
In basketball?
Ms Hayes
Yes.
I understand it made an excellent application. When compared to the sum of £371,251 for the Irish Amateur Rowing Union, there is no comparison with the type of work each does. The Irish Basketball Association is working in a disadvantaged area.
Like Deputy Cooper-Flynn, I congratulate Ms Hayes on the success of her Department which is doing tremendous work. The method of assessment for sports grants should be highlighted. There will be new applicants before the end of this month and there will probably be more than 1,400 applicants between now and early January. The Department received a good report from the Comptroller and Auditor General.
I join Deputy Foley in a number of his comments. I am surprised at the questioning of the change in the mechanism for funding projects. As chairman of a community council, I have had experience of the last system and the present one. In the past money was locked in when it was not drawn down. Various people who applied and were granted finance were not able to co-fund projects. The plans remained but the money was locked in. The level of information supplied by personnel is unreal compared to what happened in the past. I have personal experience of preparing and furnishing applications. There has been a radical change for the better in the system. I would not like to change anything which might mean taking a backward step. There has been a radical change for the better and I would not like it to be changed again.
Deputy Foley referred to the overlap of promotional services. SFADCo comes up under four or five headings. CERT, BFE, ADM and SFADCo received £2.4 million in EU funding. All of the others are national bodies. Is there an anomaly that SFADCo gets this as a locally based unit? It also receives money from other sources. It receives a tourism development grant-in-aid of £78,000. Is there an overlap in its work? Does it compete with Bord Fáilte? Is all of the money spent in that region or does it market abroad? Why would it receive preferential treatment to the other regions?
Ms Hayes
The policy decision to establish a dedicated regional development agency and the decision to transfer the tourism development function to the agency in 1987 were Government decisions.
I will not argue with anyone. If anyone attacks the tourist board in Cork, I will keep my mouth shut. It will be hard enough to change the system.
Ms Hayes
We are conscious of the potential for overlap in the mid west region in the activities of Shannon Development and Bord Fáilte. We are satisfied, however, that there is no overlap. The bulk of the money given to Shannon Development, and its primary role, is for tourism development in the mid west region. It sometimes participates in Bord Fáilte promotions on behalf of the industry in the region in the same way as the regional tourism authorities participate in their respective regions. That is the main marketing role it plays. The bulk of the money goes to the development of facilities in the mid west and the development of the industry's capability there. Bord Fáilte does not grant aid that activity because of the arrangement in the mid west.
There are three national airports - Cork, Shannon and Dublin. Aer Rianta supplies a marketing budget but it appears that Shannon has £2 million of a head start. Did that money come from the Department?
Ms Hayes
No, it does not receive any direct grant for marketing from my Department.
So it is picking it up elsewhere.
Ms Hayes
Through Aer Rianta.
This is a policy decision but I would like to hear the witness's views - is it an anachronism that 40 years after its establishment, it is out of kilter with the way the rest of the country is being promoted?
Ms Hayes
There is an exceptional arrangement for the mid west. It is dovetailed efficiently, however, with the arrangements for the rest of the State. I am satisfied that Bord Fáilte and the RTOs are doing an equally good job in the other regions.
A Bord Fáilte official accompanied me to the States and complained about two offices being close together on the same street. One was a SFADCo office and the other belonged to Bord Fáilte. That was in 1984.
Ms. Hayes
The role of the Shannon Development offices overseas is essentially to market the facilities in the region for which it is responsible. It looks after a large number of heritage properties, including the banquet product and other visitor attractions. That is the primary focus of its overseas marketing.
In all cases, including the allocation of grants, Ms Hayes has been able to justify the rationale. I still, however, feel that it is out of kilter.
My primary interest is the drugs initiative and the work being done in it. One of the understatements of the year was Ms Hayes's response to the indication by Deputy Cooper-Flynn of the underspend - she pointed out that there is a lack of enthusiasm on the part of some residents and businesses for the establishment of drug treatment services in their areas which is likely to contribute to delays. That certainly competes for the understatement of the year but it highlights the difficulties faced by the Department.
It is essential in the context of funding that an assessment of the potential savings against the expenditure is carried out. What Department would be responsible for that?
Ms Hayes
This was an issue which arose at the meeting in April - costs incurred as a result of the drug problem. The Department of Finance responded to the committee and we made a comment. The difficulty is in trying to link the costs of the drugs issue. I indicated in April that we have initiated a review of the national strategy for dealing with the drugs issue. An advisory group made up of research experts has been set up. It has been given precise terms of reference to look at the gaps in research and the potential sources of data, to advise us on the best way to access that data, the best mechanisms to get the most precise data and to make recommendations. That work is under way. I have no doubt that group will look at costs and expenditure in relation to the management of the drug problem and the wider issues it raises.
It will not be an easy job. This issue is being grappled with internationally. There is a European co-ordinating group trying to identify the criteria which should be used when approaching this problem so the results of national research can be compared. International comparison of research is very important.
I accept how difficult it will be but it is essential that some assessment is carried out, particularly in the context of people complaining about the expenditure. I called for the same thing for the community employment schemes. We have not ever evaluated the benefits, we have only counted the money paid out. It would strengthen the Minister's hand when looking for finance if he could point out the savings. He would then be able to say that £1 million could be spent in one area or £10 million addressing the problem. The evaluation should be carried out.
I would like to see emphasis on preventative measures. I was concerned when the initial 13 units were up. To me it was an abuse of the positions held by certain people. At the time I was chairman of the health boards and chairman of the drug and alcohol prevention group. The criteria set for that was abuse of heroin. It made it almost impossible to measure because people would not come forward. In future the Department should consider the preventative aspect - we should not wait until there are 1,000 cases. Huge steps have been taken and I compliment you. Things have been done in a practical way without too much officialdom. The people involved have not ever been able to deal with bureaucracy so it is essential that we have an open door for them.
Ms Hayes
Already the lessons coming out of the drugs task force have begun to be applied nationwide. Each health board has set up a regional co-ordinating committee based on the same kind of membership as we have used in the local drug task forces which have involved the Garda, the probation service and key health board personnel. These are to identify and monitor the use of drugs such as ecstasy and cannabis as well as heroin and to put in place preventative and awareness measures to alert people to the risks that may lie ahead. That kind of work has begun and we will try to drive it forward. The main driver is the Department of Health and Children.
It is good to hear that. Thank you.
What are the four or five major products that Bord Fáilte markets?
Ms Hayes
The major product is the touring product based on the scenery itself. The second would be certain city and centre products such as Dublin. There is then a range of specialist products. At the moment one of the stars in that range is the golf product. The angling product is probably not as strong as it was in the past.
Is that game angling or coarse angling?
Ms Hayes
At this point coarse angling is a stronger product than game angling although game angling brings in a higher premium business with a higher spend. Coarse angling is more attractive to the UK and Dutch markets and more proximate markets with high repeat business.
What other specialist products are there?
Ms Hayes
The walking product, which is growing in popularity and probably has wider appeal. The difficulty is that we have put a great deal of money into trails and the development of long-distance walking routes. In the next phase under the national development plan we will push for the development of six-hour to eight-hour walks in a loop system where people can start and end at the same point. This is an attractive product on the continent and would be particularly suitable to rural centres in Ireland where people could base themselves in a small town and have an opportunity for three or four days good walking of different ranges.
Are there any other products?
Ms Hayes
There are the equestrian and cultural products. More people are putting together cultural packages built around either a particular festival such as the Wexford Festival or the Dublin Theatre Festival or visiting gardens or particular museums or galleries.
Would they be specialist products?
Ms Hayes
They are. The wider touring product is the biggest product and the reason most people come to Ireland. The general tourist would dip in and out of a number of those, particularly the cultural product.
Does the Depatment have a breakdown on the marketing expenditure and the personnel associated with selling each of these products?
Ms Hayes
That information would be directly relevant to Bord Fáilte. I am sure Bord Fáilte would be able to indicate how many people they have committed to each product and the budgets they have available.
Does Ms Hayes feel it is essential to know what Bord Fáilte's spend is, the number of people engaged in marketing each product and the return therefrom, as an essential part of knowing value for money?
Ms Hayes
Bord Fáilte carry out annual surveys which they produce showing the degree to which people avail of the product on offer. They monitor the use of the product.
How many people came to play golf in Ireland as a result of the Bord Fáilte marketing programme?
Ms Hayes
The golf product literally started from zero base about 12 years ago. There is no doubt this is primarily due to the efforts of Bord Fáilte in getting the product itself right, through putting money into the investment side to get the kind of golf courses and the facilities attached to them which are needed when one sells the product abroad. Bord Fáilte took the initiative in that area.
Do we know the numbers that are coming in and where they are going? Do we know what we are getting for our spend?
Ms Hayes
Bord Fáilte produces "Tourism Facts '98", which someone has just passed to me. This contains a category, "What activity did you engage in that was the primary activity that brought you to Ireland?" Under that is listed: 20,000 came for cruising and 139,000 came for language study.
This is established when tourists have arrived.
Ms Hayes
The question refers to the primary reason they came.
One hundred and thirty nine thousand came for language study?
Ms Hayes
Yes. They had decided before they came that they wanted to study language and Ireland was the country they wanted to study in.
What I am anxious to establish is this. We spend x amount in trying to attract a particular type of tourist. Specialist tourism products have been described. Do we know what return we are getting in terms of bodies in beds or people on golf courses for that spend?
Ms Hayes
I was just about to read out numbers.
Was that survey done after they have arrived?
Ms Hayes
It was but that is actual business.
We cannot be sure that they are here as a direct result of the marketing programme by Bord Fáilte. I do not wish to say anything unfair about Bord Fáilte but it has been increasing its percentage take in tourism numbers every year so that tourists should be far in excess of the population of the country judging by the percentage increases every year since I began to have an association with Bord Fáilte. This makes me wonder are we just acting on a very unscientific and unsound basis of assessment. I want to know exactly what we are getting by way of return. If a hotelier spends so much on improvements he will know if he has bedrooms empty or if his restaurant is empty and he will know exactly what came as a result of his market on the basis of his survey. That is not information which I can easily obtain from Bord Fáilte. Has the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation satisfied itself as to the return on this spend, given that the Department grant-aids Bord Fáilte?
Ms Hayes
There was a major study done in '94 by A.D. Little on the role of Bord Fáilte, its effectiveness and where it should target its activities. As a result there was a reorganisation which further concentrated the activities and focus of Bord Fáilte on promotion and marketing. The expert opinion of A.D. Little, who are a major international company and have carried out similar studies in a number of countries, was that this was where Bord Fáilte could make its maximum contribution to tourism development in the light of the growth and improvement in the standard of the product and the maturity of the industry which could now be relied on to take on more control and awareness of the need for quality and standards which, for many years had been the main emphasis of Bord Fáilte. The emphasis which A.D. Little recommended for Bord Fáilte was promotion and marketing. Bord Fáilte has got strong support from the industry and the submission made by ITIC and the IHF, in the context of the National Development Plan, was for additional funds, primarily for marketing and training. They were the two areas they mentioned.
You should know for your own reasons. How much are we spending on touring promotions and equestrian events? Which markets are producing the best results? Do we have more Italian, German, French or British visitors? How many Japanese come here to play golf? How much are we spending in the Japanese market, which has been mentioned frequently during the years? What relationship do we have with the airlines?
Ms Hayes
The United Kingdom continues to be our most important market. North America is probably our fastest growing market in recent years. The continental European market would probably come between the North American and United Kingdom markets but has not been growing at the same rate in recent years.
Would it be possible to get a breakdown of each of the countries in which we are marketing, the personnel involved, the total spend and the return under the various product heads as a direct result of targeting by Bord Fáilte?
Ms Hayes
Most of that information is probably contained in its annual report. If the Deputy lists the precise questions I will ask Bord Fáilte——
I am doing that now. If you think there are others that should be added,please feel free to do so.
Ms Hayes
As part of our ongoing programme of expenditure review we will be looking at Bord Fáilte and its expenditure patterns in the next 12 months. We may address the issues addressed by the Deputy.
The information would be important because we would then know if we were spending too much or too little and getting value for money. We must also take account of what the private sector is putting in and where in conjunction with Bord Fáilte, and the extent to which technology is being used. What moneys are now available for projects as a result of the review of European Regional Development Fund funding?
Ms Hayes
Practically all the European Regional Development Fund money available has been committed. It has to be committed before 31 December this year——
Before 31 December.
Ms Hayes
Yes.
What criteria are used in making such a commitment? What is——
Ms Hayes
What is a binding commitment?
More particularly, what does an applicant have to do? What are the minimum obligations which have to be met before an application can be considered for approval?
Ms Hayes
I do not have details of the schemes operated by Shannon Development and Bord Fáilte under which European Regional Development Fund grants are made available for capital projects in respect of which there are detailed criteria. The conditions applying to such grants are listed in the operational programme. I can supply the Deputy with a copy.
Do they need planning permission?
Ms Hayes
Yes.
Is it an essential prerequisite?
Ms Hayes
It is not a prerequisite for grant approval but it is for grant payment.
It is not a prerequisite for grant approval.
Ms Hayes
No, but no payment will be made until planning permission has been given.
I heard something different. In the case of Lough Key Forest Park in respect of which Bord Fáilte was very helpful, Coillte only applied for planning permission last Friday. It is my information that it is the only regional project proposed and will receive £3.25 million. Coillte has made an oral presentation to the external committee responsible for grant aid. It seems there is one set of rules or criteria for semi-State agencies and another for community organisations and private individuals in seeking to promote their interests when the most minute detail has to be submitted and included on file before approval is given. Are you saying that a major project involving total expenditure of £4.5 million can be approved without planning permission?
Ms Hayes
I am not familiar with the project to which the Deputy referred.
It accounts for a large chunk of the available moneys under review.
Ms Hayes
I can seek clarification from the independent management board to which the Deputy referred, but it is my understanding that grant approval may be given contingent on the granting of planning permission without which construction could not begin.
Why does that not apply to other applicants?
Ms Hayes
I am not aware of the reason but I can check it out——
It is European Regional Development Fund funds that are being spent and it seems that different sets of rules are being applied. This is unfair.
Ms Hayes
I will seek clarification from the management board.
I am amazed that Coillte has waited until now to make an application. The sign only went up last Friday. At 3 p.m. I met the planning officer who was anxious to know if it was where it should be and it was not, but it was there by 5 p.m., at the eleventh hour. It is in the interests of other organisations that there should be a level playing pitch. The position on the funding and supporting of sport has been outlined. Does Bord Fáilte fund and support major musical events?
Ms Hayes
From time to time it has provided promotional grants and support for particular events from its own budget. It may also have supported applications to the European Regional Development Fund marketing board. I do not have a list of the projects which have been approved but I am aware that in exceptional circumstances where there is a major potential tourism benefit to be garnered either from the coverage of or the clientele attracted by the event, it will consider making once-off grants available.
Do you know offhand what events it has supported?
Ms Hayes
No, I do not have a list.
Is account taken of the necessity to check whether drugs are used, not just by members of the public but by members of participating groups or music presenters?
Ms Hayes
I am not aware of any such checks.
It is important at a time when we are fighting an almost impossible battle against drugs that the playing pitch be levelled in funding public events. Participating groups should be the subject of examination and inspection in the same way as sporting organisations and participants. Do you agree?
Ms Hayes
That is an unusual proposal which I have not heard before. The use of drugs in sport enhances performance——
It might enhance it on stage also.
Ms Hayes
The purpose of the anti-doping testing programme is to ensure fair and open competition between equals in sport.
The purpose is also to reduce the acceptance of drug usage in sport and elsewhere. In funding particular promotions and presentations or particular organisations, we should ensure anti-drugs methods are used. Do you agree?
Ms Hayes
I agree that there should be the same level of vigilance, scrutiny and surveillance and that the same controls should apply to visitors on the use or supply of drugs.
Should that be made a criteria of funding?
Ms Hayes
It does not have to be a criterion, as far as I am aware. If one is a visitor to this country, one is subject to the laws of the land.
Yes, but we need to be sure that sport is not taken in isolation, and that it will not be the case in respect of other major events that the general public may be examined, inspected and checked, while performing artists may not.
Ms Hayes
I am not aware of any prohibition on the law being applied to performing artists.
There is no prohibition, but there is a presumption that there is not active engagement in that regard as there is in sport.
Ms Hayes
I am satisfied that Bord Fáilte or any State agency would not encourage that presumption or the enforcement of that presumption.
Would you agree that it is essential to say it, that it is not encouraged, that the law should apply in the same way as it does to sport?
Ms Hayes
Well——
You have agreed with me that it is novel and that you have not heard it before. We are hearing it for the first time. Would you not agree then, in such circumstances, that the application of the law should include performing artists as well?
Ms Hayes
I am making a distinction in the case of sport where the anti-doping initiative has been taken for very precise reasons which apply in a sporting context. It is about fair competition with people operating on the same level. They are competing on a one to one basis and the purpose of the programme is to make sure that, when people line up side by side, they are all operating on the same clean and non drug assisted basis. However, in the case to which the Deputy refers, I do not see why any visitor, whatever the purpose of his or her visitor, should be treated differently from any other member of the public, and any prohibitions that apply to the general public should apply to them. I do not think agencies, including Bord Fáilte, would encourage the enforcement of any other presumption.
I am glad to hear you say that, Ms Hayes. I am glad to hear it said, even if it is for the first time, that people performing in whatever area, sport, music, or whatever, should not be drug assisted and should not be supported like that in any way.
In relation to disabled persons, what support, grant aid or funding is given through Bord Fáilte to organisations representing the disabled who participate in sport?
Ms Hayes
Bord Fáilte has no function——
I am referring to the Sports Council. Is there any funding for disabled persons?
Ms Hayes
The governing bodies of the various sports for the disabled are grant-assisted under the national governing bodies grants scheme. There are a number of national governing bodies that have a particular remit in relation to the Sports Council, and they are funded under the same scheme as all other governing bodies of sport. In addition, the Sports Council has had a special task force looking at sport provision for people with disability and the wider issue of access for that purpose. I understand it is finalising the report, having circulated a draft to relevant State agencies to get their views and their recommendations, so they will have completed a report and they intend following through on that. That would cover the wider area of facilities, access and support for people who are disabled who wish to participate in sport. Whatever follows from that will be in addition to the ongoing grants that are given to the governing bodies.
Most of Ireland, the undiscovered Ireland, is between the railway lines and the motorways and the new by-passes, but even as a native with relative experience I know that one can get lost quite frequently. One of the minimal requirements for avoiding such a mishap is to have sign-posting, and this is still dire. Because Ireland is an island, tourists have to endure certain discomforts to get here. If they get lost when they arrive here it is far short of satisfactory. We cannot tell them how to get where they are going, even when they could be near to it. What is being done about that by local authorities and the Department of the Environment and Local Government? What is Bord Fáilte doing about it?
Ms Hayes
Considerable funding from our own vote has gone towards providing sign-posting, particularly to tourist attractions and key tourist areas. We have constantly impressed on the Department the need to encourage local authorities to upgrade their sign-posting. One can see this new priority reflected in sign-posting on new roads. Wherever a new road is built much attention is being given to sign-posting. There are early warnings on motorways, slip-ways and so on.
Once you get off it, you are lost.
Ms Hayes
I agree. Even though there has been significant and noticeable improvement in recent years, it is still not enough.
Was there any input from the Department into the national development plan announced during the week? Was there anything specific in relation to sign-posting? I am talking about information signs which is different to special tourism indicators.
Ms Hayes
I cannot recall whether there is a specific reference to sign-posting in the national development plan. However, our Department has already flagged to both the Department of Finance and the Department of the Environment and Local Government what we feel is the kind of priority that should be afforded to investment in non primary roads, linking key tourist centres off the main trail and also that priority should be given to sign-posting. We have asked that that be reflected in the two new proposed regional plans. We have been trying to articulate that in particular measures. At the end of the day, it depends on the local authorities and even whether, if additional funding is provided, they are willing to draw it down.
The need for some sort of comprehensive national plan has come up year in and year out. I got lost recently trying to get on to the M50 recently from Ballymount industrial estate. There is no indication how to get on to it. It is appalling. It is mainly a matter for the Department of the Environment and Local Government.
Ms Hayes
The Department is aware of it.
We have heard that before.
It is an intrinsic part of tourism. Apart from inviting people here, it would be good if they knew where they were going after they arrived because their enjoyment cannot be contributed to by getting lost just because of a lack of sign-posting.
Ms Hayes
I agree with the Deputy that there is much more work to be done in this area.
Has the Department of Finance any views on that matter about which they have heard over the years?
Mr. Barry
In regard to the divisions and expenditure under the national development plan, I can bring it to the attention of the Department that it should be a matter of priority.
We need a detailed plan. In France, every little byway in rural areas and at every junction there is an indication of what is in each direction. We do not have it on our main roads in many places.
It might be important, Ms Hayes, that your Department should spearhead it——
Ms Hayes
We will certainly earmark money.
——and cause others to respond more particularly, because your Department is not entirely responsible.
Ms Hayes
The committee would agree that Bord Fáilte and the regional tourism authorities have used their allocation well. The brown signs are very common right across the country.
As we both agree, however, it is far short of the minimum requirements.
Ms Hayes
In regard to direction signs.
Thank you, Ms Hayes for your forthrightness and your effectiveness in your replies.
In the course of a question, Deputy McCormack referred to Bord Fáilte funding as a grant, and in your reply you referred to Bord Fáilte funding as a provision. From that I interpret that community groups get grants and Bord Fáilte gets a provision. Is there a different criterion?
Ms Hayes
No. If I recall correctly, Deputy McCormack referred to the Comptroller and Auditor's comment that one third of the money in the vote went to Bord Fáilte as a grant. I think he misunderstood the Comptroller and Auditor General that a third of the grant went to Bord Fáilte. I was simply explaining that what the Comptroller and Auditor General was saying was that a third of the overall provision for the Department went, by way of grant-in-aid, to Bord Fáilte. That is the distinction.
What are the main complaints by tourists?
Ms Hayes
There continues to be the old bug of untidiness, litter on the streets, and signposting features prominently. They are the two major complaints.
Litter is the main one. I asked that question because it drives me absolutely spare. In the last Dáil, in the Committee on Finance and General Affairs, of which I was Chair, we brought in a Litter Act which has had no impact whatever because of the complete non-performance by local authorities. Given the state of the place, is consideration being given to taking this issue away from local authorities to privatise the cleaning of our cities? At least if a private contractor is paid to do the job and does not do it, he can be sacked whereas we cannot sack city managers. Is anything being done about this? I am sick of the filth and dirt of this country. It is sickening for residents as well as tourists. Many tourists have said that the dirt of the place is shocking. What are we doing about it?
Ms Hayes
Under the mid-term review of the tourism operational programme one of the issues highlighted by the consultants, which they picked up in the visitor review, was concern about litter and the constant commentary about public litter. They recommended a tourism environment initiative because there are other issues relating to the management of the environment and the importance we attach to sustainable development and taking environmental issues on board even in tourism development. Arising from that, a few special projects have been funded and developed but I do not have the details. Principles are being tested in a number of pilot areas to get local involvement in managing the local litter problem. It is mainly tourism interests and businesses which are more conscious of this problem and get more external feedback than others in a town or centre. If we can get them to work with the local authorities with a view to enhancing the litter service and getting a better return from it, we may learn some lessons which will be of use to local authorities in improving implementation of the Litter Act.
I have heard all this before and it is very frustrating. Year in year out representatives appear before the committee from the Department of the Environment and Local Government and from your Department, and not only is nothing happening but the position is getting worse. We have had the Litter Act and we have waste management proposals from each local authority. What always strikes me about shopping centres such as Liffey Valley, Blanchardstown, The Square in Tallaght and the Omni Centre in Santry is that, once inside the wall or gate, they are spotlessly clean even though there are crowds of people there. Clearly it is a management failing. City and county managers are not up to the job, they are not fit for the job and they are not doing it. We will have to do something about it. What avenues are open to your Department? Primarily it is the responsibility of the Department of the Environment and Local Government. What consultation is taking place and what can we expect?
Ms Hayes
We are using that initiative and the lever of additional funding for special experimental work to see whether the provision for litter management can be worked more efficiently. We have bilateral contacts with the Department of the Environment and Local Government. All I can say is that we would support any measure that would deliver an improved litter management system.
: By nature I am not in favour of privatisation, but I have seen how effective privatisation of clamping has been in Dublin. The same will have to be done about cleaning the streets. I would divide the city into, maybe, ten contract areas and if the contractor does not perform he can go. The problem is we have managers who are permanent but are not performing. There is no accountability. For some reason there is also a huge absentee rate from the cleansing departments. The bin collection service by the same department is excellent. It is reliable, consistent, courteous, on time week in week out no matter what the weather and it takes all kinds of rubbish. That same department is not performing in regard to cleaning the streets and that service should be taken from it. That is the only answer.
It seems rather late in the day - I am not criticising the Department as it is doing its best - to talk about pilot initiatives, experiments and so on, but has anybody looked at the whole issue of fines? As a Department have you ever recommended that the fines be increased? It is bizarre that almost every newsagent's shop that is not in a shopping centre is a major source of litter in any village, town or city, including Dublin. It appears those businesses which are generating litter waste are not fined. In those circumstances it is bizarre from a tourism point of view that we can bring people into the country - it is a great tribute to the Department that visitors are coming here.
From the point of view of litter, this is a very dirty country. I am not aware of the level of fines. I would have thought your Department would be to the forefront in trying to increase the penalties imposed on those who create litter. The only sanction those who consistently cause litter understand is a heavy fine. While pilot initiatives and projects are welcome, a heavy fine, as in the case of clamping, is the only effective sanction in this scenario and is the one we will have to consider.
Ms Hayes
It is not just a matter of enforcing the Act. There is a public tolerance of litter in this country which is unbelievable.
That tolerance seems to stop once people go into private estates.
Ms Hayes
Or go inside their own garden gate.
Shopping centres are spotlessly clean because they are managed properly.
Ms Hayes
There is not the same appreciation——
The same crowds of people use those.
Ms Hayes
They do not associate it with the public pavement. There are fine gardens with not a scrap of litter inside the gates, yet outside the gates the shores are littered and litter is strewn all over the place, but nobody seems to be responsible for that. It is tolerated. There has to be public demand and public consciousness of the need to keep streets clean. That is not the case here but it is evident in other continental countries.
It is certainly the case. I hear repeatedly in conservation references to the dirt of the place and why something is not done about it. There is a demand. There would be public support for draconian action to reduce the problem at least. What are the other complaints?
Ms Hayes
Signposting.
We have discussed that already. What about cost?
Ms Hayes
Although we can detect a little more sensitivity towards cost, Ireland is still perceived as a relatively good value for money holiday location overall, but there are certain elements of cost that people are becoming more conscious of such as accommodation, restaurants and so on.
Eating out.
Ms Hayes
Yes, the services tourists would normally avail of.
From my own observation, eating out for a family of four costs more than a good Charvet shirt. It is expensive. I also observe that standards of hygiene and service are falling because there is such demand. Is there concern about standards?
Ms Hayes
On a positive side, there has been a growth in budget accommodation in response to this problem. The industry is coming back at the three star level in particular and offering good quality physical accommodation with minimal service at a good price. This is especially the case in city locations where many hotels have come onstream and there is a great deal of competition. People are responding and there is more competition in the restaurant sector. The difficulty is knowing where the best value can be found.
On the question of value for money, let us consider domestic tourism. Many people say it is cheaper to go to Spain, Tunisia, Morocco or Greece than to holiday at home. Would you agree with that observation? What are we doing to encourage more people to holiday in Ireland?
Ms Hayes
Over the past two and a half years Bord Fáilte and especially the regional tourism authorities and local industry have put a great deal of effort into generating domestic business. Domestic business has grown as outward-bound business grows, which is an inevitable factor of economic success. More people can afford to travel abroad and there are more new sights to see abroad than there are at home. Domestic business is growing and it is an important part of the tourism business, especially in the shoulder and the off-peak period. That is where most of the marketing effort has been directed, and one is selling at discount at that point.
What about the tourism product for domestic holidays? I do not know of any fun parks here where families can visit. There are many such parks in France, Belgium and other countries. Are there any plans to encourage the development of safe fun parks for family holidays?
Ms Hayes
In recent years there have been a number of developments which would come into that category. Three Waterworld type projects have come onstream in the past five or six years.
None of them is near Dublin.
Ms Hayes
No, they are not near Dublin but then the tendency in regard to domestic holidays is to travel out of the cities. That is a key factor in the location of those integrated indoor projects. They are located in more rural towns.
Where can parents who have a week off bring their children in Dublin?
Ms Hayes
The zoo is a very popular choice.
One cannot go there every day.
Ms Hayes
No. Many of our cultural institutions are very popular with families such as the National Gallery and the National Museum. Collins Barracks is a new product onstream. There are a number of cultural institutions to visit. There is a lot for families to do in Dublin.
I am not sure that is true. There is much to do for certain types of families with certain interests. There is certainly very little of a recreational nature and more should be done about that. I want to turn to the question of sport. The 50 metre swimming pool saga has gone on for years.
Ms Hayes
It is almost at an end.
I heard there is a proposal to build one in the University of Limerick. How many years has this been going on, and we still do not have a 50 metre swimming pool?
Ms Hayes
We hope to have a 50 metre pool with water and swimmers in it by the end of next year.
Has work begun on it?
Ms Hayes
All the preparatory work on site has been done and we are finalising the contractual arrangements relating to the grant. I think the completion date will be October or November next year, if all goes to plan.
On the whole question of sporting infrastructure, do you agree we are seriously deficient in major sporting facilities?
Ms Hayes
In recent years a great deal of money and development has gone into the provision of sports facilities throughout the country. A total of £35 million will go towards the local swimming pool provision and we will also have the 50 metre pool.
I know but if we take, for instance, the millennium park in Cardiff, Hampden Park in Glasgow, Ibrox Park, Celtic Park——
Ms Hayes
We have Croke Park.
Croke Park is for Gaelic games only, which is a pity. We are still wrestling with the question of whether we should have a national stadium. There has been no statement of support from the Department on Eircom Park. Incredibly, some in the media have been saying we do not need these facilities when, compared to any other country in eastern or western Europe, we are seriously deficient in this respect. What about the national stadium and Eircom Park?
Ms Hayes
In the case of the national stadium, the Government established a steering committee which commissioned a feasibility study. I gather the study is completed, the committee is finalising consideration of the study's finding and it hopes to go to Government at an early date. Eircom Park, as you know, is a major development promoted by the FAI, which has sought planning permission. The FAI is confident it has its funding package in place in the event that it gets planning permission.
Does the funding package include Government support?
Ms Hayes
It has not formally sought——
It has publicly sought funding. I have heard it on radio and read about it in the newspapers.
Ms Hayes
Not in relation to the stadium. I understand its interest is in State support for a training facility to be attached to Eircom Park. That is my understanding of the FAI's interest in State involvement.
Some people criticised it but Croke Park rightly got £20 million. That was a good support. Is it not reasonable to expect that a similar proportion of the cost of Eircom Park would be forthcoming from the Exchequer?
Ms Hayes
That would be a matter for Government. As far as I am aware, the FAI's main concern with Government participation is in the training facility and the centre for excellence it proposes to attach to Eircom Park.
Given that the Eircom stadium will be located, thankfully, in my constituency——
In its present position.
What?
By the time it is built the boundaries might take it out of your constituency.
I hope not. If I survive the next election the boundaries might be helpful again. How long has the issue of the national stadium been going on? I admire the FAI in that it financed this proposal and it does not need to lean on the Exchequer. Why are we still discussing the national stadium? We still do not know if it is feasible or its proposed size. Is there any indication that a national stadium can pay its way because similar arguments were made as to whether a 50 metre pool would be commercially successful? Will a 50 metre pool be viable in the long run without State assistance?
Ms Hayes
It has an operating subsidy for 20 years which would indicate that viability is contingent on subsidisation.
Is it the same case for the national stadium? After all, we are a small country——
Ms Hayes
As I mentioned, a team of independent consultants have been brought in by the steering committee to do a feasibility study. Feasibility will cover just the capital cost. In terms of the ongoing cost of running the facility, I have not seen the findings nor have I seen the consideration of the steering group, which I gather will go to Government at an early date. They are the issues that have been addressed in that study.
Is it fair to conclude that if a 50 metre pool needs a 20 year subsidy it is likely that an 80,000 seat stadium will require a public subsidy of a similar kind?
Ms Hayes
The subsidy in the case of the 50 metre pool is about £90,000 per annum. If a subsidy is required in the case of a larger facility I suspect it will be of a much higher scale.
Is Ms Hayes talking about a multiple of four or five?
Ms Hayes
I would not speculate at this point, given that consultants have already given their expert opinion on the matter.
The proposed national stadium will have an athletics track as well as a football pitch.
Ms Hayes
I gather that is one of the options this is being considered and will be taken into account.
It would be ridiculous not to have one. We have Croke Park and Eircom Park and if there is to be a third stadium - there should be one - it should have an athletics facility.
The trend internationally is not to provide a running track in a stadium but to lay one on its lower decks, so to speak, when a major event is hosted.
Ms Hayes
The option of bringing in a track for a particular event is being examined in the case of Wembley.
A portable track.
Ms Hayes
It has implications for the seating capacity and so on.
Yes, and for the size and intimacy of the crowd. Is the Department opposed to the FAI proceeding with Eircom Park?
Ms Hayes
The Department has not expressed a view one way or the other. That is an issue for the sporting body. If it is satisfied it can build, fund and operate a park, I do not think the Department should not have a view on that one way or the other.
Why not? My view is that the proposed 45,000 seater stadium is too small. It is a pity it will not have the capacity to seat another 15,000 people. I am sure that would be many people's general observation of the proposed stadium. It is a pity Department officials do not say that while they think this proposal is good, the stadium should be a little bigger and the Department would help them to provide a really worthwhile facility comparable to, say, Hampton Park or the Millennium Park in Wales. Why should we be planning to build smaller facilities than those in place in neighbouring countries?
Ms Hayes
The Department did not give a view one way or the other on the GAA proposal for Croke Park. Such a matter is one for the sporting bodies. They know their sports, the level of projected attendances and when they analyse the operational and capital costs and they decide what they can afford. Such a matter is one for the governing bodies.
I do not agree with that. I hope these facilities will also be available for other purposes. It is great that the GAA and the FAI are taking the initiative to provide facilities, but surely it is in the national interest to ensure the facilities that are built will be multi-purpose and of great value to the community as a whole.
Ms Hayes
The Chairman must acknowledge that if the governing body of a sport decides to take this step, its primary interest is in its own sport. When engaged in planning, its primary focus is its own sport. We cannot take that away from a governing body.
No, we would not take that away from it. I am sure there is a role for consultation and partnership. From listening to the people on the ground, many people think the only thing wrong with Eircom Park is that it is being planned on too small a scale, at least 10,000 seats to small. There would be a wide welcome for an initiative to build a slightly bigger stadium than the one proposed. Is there a plan or an inventory in the Department of sporting infrastructure to which we should aspire and how to get it?
Ms Hayes
We do not have one at present, but we are beginning to collate data on what facilities are available around the country and to draw up an inventory.
I visited Slovakia a few weeks ago. It has a per capita income of half or less than half of ours and some eastern European countries have a per capita income of one quarter or one fifth of ours, but those countries have better sporting facilities and generally attain better sporting results than we do. We have a national plan and the resources to implement it, but we do not have a vision for sport adequate to what is needed. I am glad the Department is drawing up an inventory of needs and preparing a plan to achieve those needs. That is beginning to happen.
Ms Hayes
We are beginning to prepare the framework for an inventory and a plan to keep it up to date, which is important. If inventories are not maintained and kept up to date, they quickly become redundant.
What about North-South sporting arrangements? If the agreement comes into operation, and I hope it will, is there a role for encouraging more North-South co-operation?
Ms Hayes
Yes, definitely. There is a good deal of co-operation at present. We have a few joint projects with schools and clubs in the Border regions, in the Foyle area, in Sligo, Monaghan, Tyrone and Fermanagh. The Sports Council and its counterpart in Northern Ireland have met on an increasingly regular basis. I mentioned the code of ethics for children in sport. I gather that will be adopted as an all-Ireland set of guidelines. That sets the first precedent for the management of sport where people have come together and agreed a cross-Border approach to a critical area. On that basis, I think we will see more co-operation.
Ideally, should the drawing up of an inventory of sporting infrastructure and sporting needs not be a 32 county project? In terms of sporting infrastructure, should we not consider Ireland as a whole to try to ensure we have a modern and competitive sporting infrastructure throughout the island?
Ms Hayes
I agree. I think that will be raised in discussions. I suspect the people in Northern Ireland may be more advanced in this area than we are, but we have begun the work.
More advanced in what respect?
Ms Hayes
In relation to inventories and so on because of the role local authorities have played in sport, in particular the development of sporting facilities in the North. They have had a greater involvement in sports development whereas we have worked closely with the governing bodies, community groups and so on and we have applied a different approach to the development of facilities.
Are there comparative studies?
Ms Hayes
No, there are not. This is not something that has been considered from a cross-Border dimension.
Surely it is an area that could be the subject of a study. Some of the universities could examine sporting facilities in the North compared to the South.
In terms of sports centres, the British Government would not want to have to deal with another problem for 20 years.
There is that aspect to it, but the local authorities are involved. Is the drug problem getting better or worse? The Department has a prime role in tackling the drug abuse problem. Is consumption of addictive drugs increasing or decreasing?
Ms Hayes
I will refer the Chairman to Ray Henry, who was our representative on the national drugs strategy team and who generally deals with this issue. He will be able to the give the Chairman the best insight into the up-to-date position on that issue.
We will never reach a stage where we will have a drug free society. We can, however, put responses in place to respond to the problem and in recent years we have put a number of responses in place. For example, the number of treatment clinics in the Eastern Health Board area has increased from 23 to 46. We are putting in place prevention programmes, but they may not have been put in place early enough. The problem was allowed to outstrip the response during the 1980s and early 1990s and now we are playing catch up. While much has been done, it may be perceived that nothing has been done to address the problem. The position of people who are engaged in drug abuse will become chaotic over the next few years, so the number of drug misusers may not appear to decrease. Overall, the response to the problem is improving.
What new initiatives are planned to ensure a speedy response? Are there still waiting lists in different places for drug abusers seeking treatment?
The Eastern Health Board is primarily responsible for providing treatment. This has been acknowledged by the Dublin citywide crisis campaign. In their latest policy document they refer to the fact that the treatment services have expanded rapidly and continue to do so. The priority now is to deal with the people who are in treatment and to provide follow up services and so forth. We circulated to the committee examples of 60 projects which the local drugs task forces are putting in. The task forces have been asked to update their plans and to place particular emphasis on the follow up and support service. We have not reached the stage where people can access treatment on demand but we are moving towards that.
Has the Secretary General ever visited any of these projects or walked the city streets to look at this problem? She is Secretary General of the Department responsible for leading this fight.
Ms Hayes
No, I have not visited any of the individual projects. However, I have walked the streets and I am familiar with Merchant's Quay. I have not gone formally as the Secretary General of the Department but I am aware of the projects and their locations. I have seen them.
I congratulate the Department and my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Flood, on the new initiative under which local politicians can be on the drugs forces. When did that happen?
The Cabinet committee agreed to that about three months ago. The task forces have now invited them.
That is a positive move. The problem for the health board in establishing these clinics and drug treatment centres was public misunderstanding and lack of consultation. Are the health boards fully up to speed in terms of consulting with the local people before they set up a treatment centre? This came up at a previous meeting with the Secretary General. Are you happy that it adopts a proper and thorough approach to setting up the treatment infrastructure?
I think so. Our priority is to ensure that the concerns of local residents and communities are met while at the same time looking after the drug users. I agree that the addition of the local elected representatives to the task forces facilitates this process immensely. We are happy that the situation is improving.
Is it now mandatory for the drugs task forces to have local political representatives on them or is it discretionary?
Mandatory is a strong word. The task forces are asked to invite the local elected representatives.
That is a positive move and I congratulate you on it. You said the figures will not be seen to plunge initially. What timeframe do you envisage for the expansion of services? The late Jack Lynch got cornered for staking himself to a figure on unemployment, but can you give an indicative forecast of when you envisage a result kicking in, in terms of a reduction?
There are two questions there. First, as regards the expansion of services to provide treatment on demand, I hope within the next couple of years, perhaps even earlier, we might begin to see a satisfactory situation. As regards overall drug use, most people agree that the heroin problem is closely associated with socio-economic disadvantage so that will be a more long-term problem. It goes outside the remit of just the drugs initiative. Obviously, it will require a number of other initiatives. I do not think we can ever aspire to a drug free society; no society has reached that status.
My next question is prompted by curiosity. I have seen a number of cases of young people whose consumption of drugs such as ecstasy brought to the surface mental illnesses that previously were dormant. Is anybody in the Department or in the medical field tracking this? It will be a huge phenomenon in the future given the widespread use of ecstasy by people in their 20s. We are beginning to see people admitted to hospitals for psychiatric disorders of one type or other which have surfaced as a result of using these extreme drugs. I hear from doctors that this phenomenon definitely exists and I am interested to know if the Department is tracking it. Is there some way of developing a reporting system with the hospitals? When there is an admission and the patient is assessed by the doctor or psychiatrist, if the condition is brought about by drugs or the use of drugs over a prolonged or short period, that should be recorded and tracked. It would give us information for prevention programmes, targeting and so forth.
Ms Hayes
Earlier I informed the committee that we had established a research advisory group. This is one of the areas it will examine - where data can be caught, the type of mechanisms that can be used to access it, the aggregation and manipulation that can be done on data to give a clearer picture of what is happening and to identify possible future trends. That group has begun its work. In-patient records and what they can contribute to the database is one of the things it will examine. In addition, health boards have now set up regional co-ordinating or strategy groups based on the principles of the local drugs task force in terms of representation. They will monitor developments in relation to drugs, particularly drugs other than heroin, for example, ecstasy, cannabis and so forth.
It is very important that this aspect is tracked. Young people are reckless; I was a reckless youth myself in many ways but we will not go into that——
Nothing has changed, Deputy.
Being reckless, they do not realise that psychiatric illnesses can be brought to the surface which would otherwise be dormant and with which they could have a perfectly normal life. This type of thing is not well known among younger people and if it were made clear or if there were research to demonstrate that it happens, it would have a huge impact on drug prevention.
I will refer back briefly to the Eircom stadium. I presume the Department would not rule out giving assistance in the order of £20 million if the FAI comes up with a good proposal for the training centre that will be attached to the stadium.
Ms Hayes
The Minister indicated he would look at any proposal that comes forward.
There is a certain amount of jealousy that they started their stadium, and that is understandable in a sense. However, that will not influence the decision-making process against the FAI. Is that the case?
Ms Hayes
Every application across the sports capital area is considered on its merits.
You cannot quantify the level of subsidy that would be needed for a national stadium but it must be higher than for the 50 metre pool.
Ms Hayes
Absolutely, if it is necessary. I anticipate that it would be much higher than for the 50 metre pool.
How long will it take for the feasibility study on the national stadium to be completed?
Ms Hayes
I understand that the independent experts have reported their findings to the steering group. The steering group is concluding its consideration of those findings and it will report to Government at an early date.
Does that mean the next month or two?
Ms Hayes
As far as I can be sure, it will be an early date.
Intriguing publicity has surrounded the proposal for a national stadium. I do not believe it is viable; it might have to be sited in Croke Park but that depends on the GAA changing its attitudes. There is an offer of £50 million assistance from J. P. McManus. What is your understanding of that? Are there strings attached? What is the basis of the offer? It seems to be one of the main selling points for building a national stadium, this wonderful philanthropic gesture from the high roller of gambling on the turf. What is its status?
Ms Hayes
I have no details of the proposed donation from Mr. McManus. However, I expect the details have been given to the steering committee and it is one of the aspects that could be incorporated in the feasibility study. Obviously, it will be an important element in the feasibility of the project.
At this stage, Ms Hayes does not know the status of the offers.
Ms Hayes
No, I have no details.
Is it a case of take the money and build the stadium or——
Ms Hayes
Apart from the figures——
——does Ms Hayes know if there are any conditions attached?
Ms Hayes
I literally do not know anything other than the figure of £50 million and the name associated with it.
On the North-South matter, I apologise for going back over ground covered by the Chairman——
In my opinion the national stadium is one of those things that one just goes ahead and does. We need these facilities and it is ridiculous that we are spending so much time talking about them. Croke Park and Eircom Park are basic items which other cities of a commensurate size already have. Perhaps we should go ahead and do it, Ms Hayes, and not worry about legal penalties.
Ms Hayes
We have delivered the 50 metre pool and Croke Park is flying. We have done much in the past two and a half years.
Regarding North-South sporting links - I am aware I am straying into policy issues - from the point of view of savings and development, does the Department have a policy of encouraging amalgamation of sporting bodies? Many years ago the former Taoiseach, Mr. Haughey, and the Government at the time had the enlightened policy of trying to encourage trade union amalgamation and the result is the monster called SIPTU. Is there an active policy of encouraging and giving financial inducements to bodies which might potentially merge and enhance our performance on the world stage? I do not want to over concentrate on soccer, but the FAI appears to be a spectacular case for a large financial inducement to facilitate a North-South merger. If that occurred, it might not be necessary to hang around listening to radios.
Ms Hayes
A significant number of sports operate and are managed on an all-Ireland basis. The recent movements in the athletics area means that the many years of two bodies running the sport in the South seems to have come to an end. The proposed new body will have an all-Ireland dimension, which is a recent development. The Minister has gone on record on a number of occasions encouraging bodies to consider this option, but ultimately these bodies are independent. They come to their own conclusions on these issues. There is nothing but support and encouragement from the Department and the Sports Council for it. I am sure any support they can give towards such developments would be forthcoming.
There is no planned programme of financial inducements to facilitate amalgamations.
I hope that area will be addressed by the North-South bodies.
Yes, but perhaps our views on it could be recorded internally.
Perhaps the Department could also consider what will be the sports anthem of these bodies. The song, "Ireland's Call" at Lansdowne Road does not impress me.
Ms Hayes
The Chairman does not like it?
You could say that.
"A Soldier's Song" or "A Nation Once Again".
Ms Hayes
That will take as much discussion as any merger.
That is all for now, but I would like a report on litter although I know it and the question of signposting are issues for the Department of the Environment and Local Government. That Department is due to appear before the committee but the date is not yet listed.
Ms Hayes
We will get the Chairman an update on them.
Perhaps the Department could write to the committee by February and tell us what is happening about litter and what new dramatic initiatives will take place to deal with it and signposting.
I do not require an answer now but another matter is the EMCDDA European effort to harmonise the cost of the drug problem——
Ms Hayes
No, research on cost.
When is that due to report? Will the Secretary General give me a note on that at a later date?
Ms Hayes
We can get the Deputy a note.
Perhaps the note could cover when it is hoped they will be able to arrive at a figure or a methodology.
We will note the Vote and the accounts. I thank the Secretary General and her officials. I would be grateful if the words expressed by members of the committee on the sports section were communicated. It is important that words of commendation are passed on because, by the nature of things, usually words of criticism are heard. I would be grateful if the Secretary General would do that.
The witnesses withdrew.
The next meeting of the committee is at 10 a.m. on Thursday, 25 November, when we will consider Vote 33, Department of Health and Children, Appropriation Accounts 1999.
The Committee adjourned at 12.46 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 25 November 1999.