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COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 2 Dec 1999

Vol. 1 No. 14

1998 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Vote 19 - Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Vote 20 - Garda Síochána.

Vote 21 - Prisons.

Vote 22 - Courts.

Vote 23 - Land Registry and Registry of Deeds.

Mr. T. Dalton (Secretary General, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform) called and examined.

Witnesses should be made aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and should be appraised as follows. Members/witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence, the right to produce or send documents to the committee, the right to appear before a committee either in person or through a representative, the right to make a written and oral submission, the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents and the right to cross-examine witnesses.

For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the committee. Persons being invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any person identified in the course of proceedings who is not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant parts of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice. Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Dalton and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Dalton

I thank the Chairman. I am accompanied by Ms Sylda Langford, who is the Assistant Secretary dealing with equality issues, Mr. Ken Bruton, who is the Department's finance officer - he replaced Mr. Mick Madden who accompanied me here for several years - Mr. Seán Aylward, who is the new Director General of the Prison Service and is familiar with all prisons issues, and Mr. Jimmy Martin, who is a principal officer on the Garda side of the Department.

Will the officials from the Department of Finance introduce themselves?

Mr. Jim O’Farrell

I work on the public expenditure side and I am accompanied by Ms Emer Hogan who works on the human resources side.

Paragraphs 15 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

15. Irish Council of People with Disabilities

The Irish Council of People with Disabilities (the Council) is an independent State funded body established in January 1997 and funded through the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The Council was established on an interim basis primarily to support local disability networks and to oversee the establishment of a permanent Council. Funding of the interim Council for 1997 and 1998 amounted to £398,000 and £876,000, respectively. The interim Constitution which governed the affairs of the interim Council expired on 31 December 1998 without the interim Council having completed its work on the introduction of a permanent Constitution and elected Council, due to be in place on 1 January 1999.

In line with the Constitution of the interim Council the accounts were subject to audit by a private firm of auditors. The accounts for 1997 and 1998 had not been certified by the auditors by 31 August 1999.

During 1998, the Department became concerned with apparent serious deficiencies in the Council's financial management and its credibility. The documentary evidence available to the Department suggested failure on the part of the Council to follow proper accounting procedures and a very unsatisfactory approach to expenditure control, including:

The high level of expenditure incurred by individual Board members and the apparently inordinate amount of travel by some Board members.

The high costs incurred in the engagement of legal services to no apparent advantage.

The very high level of settlement reached on the termination of employment of a former chief executive officer.

The failure on the part of the Council to recover from the relevant international organisations the travelling and subsistence expenses which it advanced to its delegates for attendance at meetings of these organisations.

Advances made to bodies although they were in significant credit at the time and had not submitted expenditure plans.

Decisions on the allocation of significant funds which appeared to have been made in an informal manner and, on occasions, by individual Board members.

The Department advised the Council of its concerns in June and July 1998 pointing out that, at local level, there was little evidence that the Council had been involved with the local disability networks other than handing out money and computers. There had been suggestions that the networks were suffering from lack of leadership, motivation, direction and training by the Council. The Department concluded that the credibility and reputation of the Council had been seriously damaged and directed the Council to take remedial action. This included the appointment, in consultation with the Department, of a full time Chief Executive Officer with an appropriate level of authority and an agreed job description, the installation of proper financial controls precluding expenditure without the proper authority, the establishment of sub-committees to liaise with the Department on the Council's operations and the provision of proposals and a time frame for the establishment of a permanent Council.

In September 1998, following receipt of information from a senior official of the interim Council about particular payments, the Accounting Officer instructed the Department's Internal Audit Unit to carry out an immediate audit investigation of the interim Council's financial affairs under the following terms of reference:

To examine the financial records of the organisation with a view to establishing the credibility of the internal controls and procedures which give assurance that all expenditure is in accordance with good accounting practice and To examine the payment of salaries and expenses to the Council's Administrator and the agreements, conditions of employment and resolutions of the Board to support these payments.

The draft report prepared by the Department's Internal Audit Unit, was critical of the manner in which the interim Council managed its financial affairs. The report was furnished in late November 1998 and circulated on a confidential basis to those people to whom reference was made and to members of the Management Board of the interim Council. They were asked to furnish any comments they might have to the Department by early December 1998. All responses received were forwarded to the Internal Audit Unit for consideration and some of these caused minor revisions to be made to the report. However, before the report could be released, legal action seeking a Judicial Review was initiated by the former Chairman of the interim Council who had resigned in June 1998. Consequently, the final report, while complete, was never issued and its contents are known only to its authors.

In response to my request for sight of the audit report, the Accounting Officer informed me that legal advice furnished by the Chief State Solicitor's Office states that it cannot be formally released to me until the legal proceedings are finalised. However, the Accounting Officer assures me that there is reason to believe that the matter can be resolved between the parties and that the audit report will be released to me then.

He also advised me that there is prima facia evidence to suggest that there was some misappropriation of public funds, but that this would be clarified by the audit report. In the meantime revised financial control arrangements were put in place in October 1998, immediately on receipt of a preliminary oral report from the head of the Internal Audit Unit and have operated without interruption to date.

The Accounting Officer also stated that, in January 1999, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, on the recommendation of independent consultants, appointed a seven person Steering Group for a nine month period to oversee the establishment of a permanent Irish Council of People with Disabilities. While the Steering Group is progressing well in its work it now appears that it will be seeking an extension of time to complete its tasks. This is because of unexpected difficulties which it encountered in the course of its work and the time required by the consultative process in which it is engaged with the membership of the Council in the course of preparing a new Constitution for the Council.

Mr. Purcell

Paragraph 15 summarises issues concerning the financial affairs of the Irish Council for People with Disabilities since it was established in early 1997 on an interim basis as a forerunner to the formation of a permanent council. It would be an understatement to say that things did not go very smoothly with the interim council. In fact, it appeared to be fraught with internal wrangling which made it difficult to achieve the objectives that were set out for it. Among other things, the atmosphere and environment were not conducive to the operation of a proper financial control regime.

Some of the repercussions are bullet pointed in the paragraph. These, together with further information received in September 1998, prompted the Department's Accounting Officer to send in his internal audit unit to carry out an investigation into the financial affairs of the council. Revised financial procedures were put in place in October 1998 following a preliminary oral report by the head of internal audit and they have been operated since. However, the final written internal audit report is not available for inspection because of a legal action taken by the former chairman of the interim council. As I understand it, that is still the case.

That said, the Accounting Officer has informed me that there is prima facie evidence to suggest that there was some misappropriation of public funds. Taking 1997 and 1998 together, the State has provided more than £1.25 million to the council. It looks as if one can say at the very minimum that there must be a doubt as to whether that money was spent with due regard to propriety and value for money.

Mr. Dalton, do you wish to make an opening statement?

Mr. Dalton

Yes. By way of background, there are various factors which contribute to the sense of isolation of people with disabilities and disadvantage. That was the fundamental thought behind the idea of creating a council which would be an empowering instrument. An establishment group was set up whose function was to advise on the formation of a council. That group reported and the council was formally launched in March 1997. It has about 5,500 to 6,000 members around the country and 30 networks, one each in 24 counties, two in Cork and two in Dublin.

As the Comptroller and Auditor General said, difficulties arose very quickly. The end result of these difficulties, and I will mention what they were, was that the Minister in January of this year set up a seven person steering committee to take the work forward and to create a proper constitution. Before I go into the detail of the difficulties which arose, there are several legal and other proceedings so I have to be careful of what I say because, as the Comptroller said, these have not been resolved, although I am glad some of them are nearing resolution.

As the Comptroller said, we have paid out quite an amount of money to the council - about £1.25 million in 1997-98 and £600,000 so far this year. Things began to go wrong very early on. The first chief executive was appointed in July 1997. Within weeks he ran into difficulties with the council's chairperson and eventually resigned in April 1998. In April 1998 we wrote to the chairperson of the council looking for audited accounts for 1997. The chairperson said he could not provide the accounts because of staff shortages but, of course, we had to press it and eventually we got them in May 1998. In the meantime, a new chief executive designate was appointed on 11 May. He has since departed because of difficulties - I will come to that later. He submitted the draft accounts at the end of May for the nine months up to 31 December 1997. He also sent us material about an invoice for £12,000 paid to the council's solicitor in respect of work on the former chief executive's severance package, and this too gave rise to difficulties which I will mention.

There was regular contact between the Department from the beginning when we realised there were difficulties, and during June, July and August in particular. I cannot go into all of it because some of the issues that were the subject of correspondence are the subject of proceedings, but I think the committee deserves and needs a fairly good account of what was going on. The head of the internal audit unit came to me in October. As I said, I sent in the internal audit unit because of my concern that things were out of hand or that money could possibly have been misappropriated. The head of the internal audit unit came back to me in October and briefed me orally on what he had found. It was a source of concern. I decided that no more money should be paid immediately once I was told they should receive no more public funds unless they were specifically approved in each instance by the Department's finance officer, as distinct from simply depending on requests from the council. That position has remained since. Our finance officer who preceded Ken has since resigned but I asked him to stay on and maintain control of the council's finances. His signature is now required on everything that is paid out to ensure that everything is in order and is being properly expended. I believe that the finances are now operating on a satisfactory basis.

There are a number of proceedings in progress. First, there is a High Court action involving the chief executive who was dismissed in October 1998. Second, there is a case before the Employment Appeals Tribunal taken by a former administrator of the council concerning her pay. There were substantial concerns about the arrangements in relation to her pay. Third, there are judicial review proceedings against the Department by a former chairman of the council concerning a draft report. This is the report which we are unable to hand over at the moment because of the proceedings. He has difficulties with that report. I am glad this issue is coming around. He has seen a revised draft of the report and I believe this issue will be resolved.

There is also legal correspondence from a group calling itself the Irish Council for People with Disabilities Limited objecting to the use by the existing group of the title Irish Council for People with Disabilities. There is substantial legal entanglement in all of this. I believe that the steps I took at the time were necessary and that they had the effect of protecting public funds from that point onwards. When the committee receives the report, which it will when these proceedings are resolved, I certainly expect to have to answer further questions because, I believe, without going into detail or saying who was responsible for what, there are serious questions that need to be answered about payments made, lack of control in the way things were done and so on.

It is necessary to say that we are dealing with the first attempt to set up a council like this. Many of the people involved - 99.9% of them - are very genuine and did nothing wrong. As I understand it, it was a first attempt at creating a council which would give this level of empowerment to people with disabilities. I suppose it was not terribly surprising, given the nature of the organisation concerned, that there would be difficulties. I mention this merely in fairness to the very large number of people who were involved and the very large number of disabled people who look to this council, and will continue to look to it, to assert their rights. I do not mention this as an excuse for unsatisfactory financial procedures. We have control now but I am acknowledging that there are questions which I expect to be answering again to this committee.

This is Mr. Seán Aylward's first appearance before the committee as Director General of the Irish Prisons Service and I wish him well. Mr. Dalton, the accounts for 1997 and 1998 had not been certified by the auditors by 31 August 1999. What is the position now?

Mr. Dalton

The audited accounts for 1997 were received on 4 September 1998.

And 1998 is not yet complete?

Mr. Dalton

We have not received the 1998 accounts yet.

I will ask the Comptroller to come in on that point.

Mr. Purcell

To avoid confusion, there is a set of draft accounts for 1997 that have been audited, though the formal audited report accounts have not been adopted formally, as required by law. There is no formal audit certificate of those accounts so, technically, they are not audited. However, an audit has been carried out on the 1997 accounts by a firm of commercial auditors.

The report refers to the high level of expenditure incurred by individual board members and travel by some board members.

Mr. Dalton

I am a little restricted in the detail of the report because it is the subject of proceedings.

That is okay.

Mr. Dalton

However, the report shows that some individuals claimed excessively.

I appreciate that we have to do without the usual questions because of likely prosecutions. However, I agree with Mr. Dalton it is disappointing that this happened, having spent so long trying to establish a facility for people with disabilities. There are about 5,500 to 6,000 receiving a service. What is their position at present? Are they getting the service? We anticipated a fairly rapid expansion of the numbers. Is that happening? Is there any expansion? Will the current events affect the provision of services to those in that organisation?

Mr. Dalton

Services are being provided. We did not cut off the supply of resources but regulated the way in which they were being handed out so that services are being provided around the country. There is a much better handle on the whole thing, particularly since the steering group took over. It would be nonsensical to pretend that confidence in the system has not been shaken. It has been shaken but, as I understand it, services are being provided to the various networks around the country.

A number of organisations have been started. The Centre for Independent Living is one of them and Mr. Dalton named the group that is protesting at the use of the original title. Is it envisaged that all these will be under one umbrella? Where do you see them progressing? Will there be splinter groups?

Mr. Dalton

Our idea was that there would be a single umbrella group, that the council would act as an umbrella group for all the groups. That is the thinking at present. However, the steering group is working on this issue and it will report in March. The basic idea is that there will be an umbrella organisation.

You say the report will be available in March. Do you anticipate that everything will be resolved speedily or will it drag on because of the legal implications?

Mr. Dalton

I do not think so. The latest information I have on the legal implications is that those matters will be resolved in the short-term. However, one never knows with legal proceedings. It is my understanding that they will be resolved and, in particular, that the report, which will be of considerable interest to the committee, will become available very quickly.

You outlined a number of difficulties when the council was set up. How did it go so wrong so quickly?

Mr. Dalton

It was a combination of personality clashes and inexperience. Inexperience was probably a big factor in that the people involved might not have understood, in the same way you or I would, the need for tight control of public money. It boiled down to that. In addition, there were various personality clashes. There was another situation with regard to internal administration. I do not wish to be too specific about it because it is one of the matters we are dealing with. Aspects of the internal administration were surprising by normal standards in terms of lack of control. That is the best way to put it. All this information will be in the report.

The basic idea was empowerment. That was the philosophy behind it and it is an understandable one. However, an unfortunate side effect of that was a refusal to accept advice. There was no inclination on the part of some of the people centrally involved to accept the advice of people like ourselves. There was a difficulty in trying to get across the idea that this was not a fetish about money on our part but that they were real requirements. That message was either not well understood or well received and it took a while to get it across. It was only when I eventually decided there was no more money that the messsage was brought home.

Were these people professionals who should have known better?

Mr. Dalton

Some were. I am a little cautious about this, given the nature of the organisation. It was a first, perhaps even a world first. Its achievements have been recognised and it was the basis on which the President received the F. D. Roosevelt award in the United States. The achievements have been recognised as a first and a very important experiment in dealing with the disabled. There is the unfortunate side effect that the controls are not ideal. I have no doubt that, given the type of people and the enthusiasms involved, this will become a model organisation when we get over the current difficulties.

It was begun with a philosophy of independence and empowerment and then we tried to suggest that controls were necessary. The suggestion was that perhaps our behaviour was discriminatory whereas we were trying to say "this is not on; you must have some controls". It will all become much clearer when the audit report becomes available.

Page one mentions the failure of the council to recover from the relevant international organisations travelling and subsistence expenses which it had advanced to its members. Will you comment on that?

Mr. Dalton

There was an entitlement to recover this money. That is one example of the many inadequacies in the financial and control systems. Things such as this, which would be pursued in an organisation that had been in existence for some time, were not pursued.

Pay increases appear to occur in a rather unusual fashion, without the type of controls one would normally expect. Pay increases of significant dimensions took place. That is the subject of issues before the Employment Appeals Tribunal. The suggestion being made is that because we sought to bring that control to heel, it was somehow discriminatory. This issue is before the Employment Appeals Tribunal. There was a substantial misunderstanding on the part of some who were in critical positions of the realities of public accounts, indeed any accounts. I believe things are under control now. There are questions to be answered about the past and I am confident that the disabled, when we get this right - the target date is March or April for the finalisation of reports - will have a good council as a result.

Is it envisaged that anybody will be held responsible for this now or in the future?

Mr. Dalton

That may well be the case. I do not wish to speculate but issues will arise about the bona fides of some. I cannot predict what will happen or whether there would be a basis for suggesting fraudulent behaviour. We will have to wait for that.

What success has the Department had in ensuring that the 3% employment quota for persons with disability is achieved?

Mr. Dalton

It has not fully been achieved. The figure over the entire public sector is 1.7%, which is well short of the target of 3%. I can give the Deputy the statistical information. It was contained in a recent reply to a parliamentary question. The percentage employed in the broader public sector is 1.7% which represents only 3,050 persons out of a total of 178,000.

There is a monitoring committee chaired by the Department which consists of representatives of each Department and the social partners. This committee has noted that a small number of bodies have increased the number of people with disabilities they employ and they have reached and exceeded the quota. It is trying to find out what the problem is in other cases, why they have not reached the quota and whether there are certain types of duty, for example, security duties, that by nature are not suited to people with certain disabilities. It could be that there is an insufficient number of people with disabilities who achieve third level education where that is a requirement for the job. The committee is investigating the various factors that affect it. The bottom line, however, is that we have not achieved the 3%.

You said 1.7% has been achieved in the public sector. What has been the achievement in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have a figure, but it is under 3%.

Is it under 1.7%?

Mr. Dalton

It is above that. It is between the two. I will send the exact figure to the committee.

I note from your reply that the target date for implementation of the Employment Equality Act, 1998, is 1 September 1999. The Act prohibits discrimination in relation to employment on nine grounds: gender, marital status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, disability, race and membership of the travelling community. Have we ever had a member of the travelling community in the Garda Síochána?

Mr. Dalton

I do not know, Chairman, but I doubt it very much.

Have we ever had an application from a member of the travelling community for admission to the Garda Síochána?

Mr. Dalton

I will have to check these matters, but I doubt it. I would be surprised if we had because I am not so sure that the travelling community, generally, would see it as a vocation in life.

If we are ever to integrate the travelling community into our society in terms of housing and education, as is the aim of local authorities, should we not be doing something positive to encourage that, given that we are obliged not to discriminate against them, according to your letter of 22 June to the Chairman? Should we not be doing something positive to encourage people like that and make it known that there would be no discrimination against them in applying for membership? It might solve a lot of problems if some members of the travelling community were in the Garda Síochána.

Mr. Dalton

I accept that, Chairman. The same issues will arise concerning minority communities, such as refugees, in other jurisdictions, as have arisen in the United Kingdom. Some £300,000 has been provided in the Department's Estimates for 1999 to promote greater communication between the travelling and settled communities. That is a good start. Not only would many members of the travelling community not see membership of the Garda Síochána as a vocation, but also they might tend to be hostile to gardaí as a group.

It is to cure that problem that I raised the question.

Mr. Dalton

Absolutely, and I agree with the Deputy, but communication, on which we are spending £300,000, seems to be a reasonable way to begin. I completely accept the Deputy's point and I think he is correct. Incidentally, I now have a figure for the number of disabled employees in the Department, which is 2.4%. We are short of the target; we are about halfway between 1.7% and 3%.

Is the communications programme being presented to community schools? Where is the £300,000 on the communications programme being spent?

Mr. Dalton

It is being spent on a number of distinct programmes, including market research, lobbying, media relations, advertising promotions, appropriate training and ongoing community activities involving the settled and traveller communities. That is not a terribly precise response. What the Deputy wants to know is whether we are doing something in schools, but I do not have that information. I will get back to the Deputy about that.

It would be important to include that sentence from your letter which states "In the employments where this programme includes the Employment Equality Act, 1988", to show who it does not discriminate against, so that people will be aware that no such discrimination is permitted against them on any of those grounds, subject to all other qualifications.

Mr. Dalton

Okay.

Are we just dealing with Vote 19 now?

Paragraph 15 only.

Paragraph 15 of Vote 19?

Yes. We have not proceeded to the Vote yet.

On the question of disability, Mr. Dalton may have inadvertently given the wrong information. The figures were provided in reply to a parliamentary question I tabled. Mr. Dalton mentioned a figure of 1.7%, but 2.7% is the average figure provided. As he said, the figure is 2.4% of a staff of 3,355. However, the figure I was given is different.

Mr. Dalton

I was talking about the public service, not the Civil Service.

Mr. Dalton's Department comes under the Civil Service.

Mr. Dalton

Yes.

In the Civil Service the figure is 2.7%. It is worth noting that Mr. Dalton's figure is quite high when one considers that there are 3,355 people employed there. In that context, the Chief State Solicitor's office has a mere 0.5% of disabled employees out of a total of 220. They have only managed to employ one or two disabled people. We should laud the efforts of the Central Statistics Office which has a 5.4% rate. We should keep an eye on this issue because people are dodging it and are not making the effort. They are coming up with a kind of rhetoric about third level education, but it reflects a lack of effort rather than anything else.

Mr. Dalton

One of the problems in the Department is that the staff in the Prisons Service count as civil servants. There are about 3,000 of them, but the opportunities for employing disabled people as prison officers are limited.

I am lauding your efforts and the fact that the percentage of disabled employees in such a large total is that high, considering the fiscal restrictions involved.

Mr. Dalton

Thank you very much, Chairman.

I note that the target to employ 3% of disabled workers in the public service is the subject of a commitment in paragraph 5.2.1 of Partnership 2000. Does that mean that it has to be achieved in the lifetime of Partnership 2000?

Mr. Dalton

That is a political call, Chairman, but I expect that is the political expectation, yes.

Public moneys are involved there and you brought in outside auditors, Mr. Dalton. Why are they not audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Mr. Dalton

In the case of the National Disability Authority, I do not know the answer. I think it is because it is a voluntary organisation.

Mr. Purcell

I do not know. In some of these cases I would have audit responsibility. In this case, perhaps because of the way in which it was established, but I do not know the reason, I am not the appointed auditor. I expect, however, that because it gets more than 50% of its moneys from the State it would be subject to inspection by me. An inspection is something less than an audit. It would give me the right to ensure that the moneys are being used for the purposes for which they were granted and also were in line with conditions imposed by the relevant Department. I do not have full audit rights, however, and I just do not know why.

Mr. Dalton

We would have no difficulty if the Comptroller and Auditor General were involved.

We should make a recommendation that the matter be referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I have a question concerning an item on page 106 under the heading "Violence against women". There seems to be a big difference between the estimated provision and the outturn. May we have some information on that?

You have moved away from paragraph 15.

I am sorry.

Chairman

We will return to that paragraph when we get the audited accounts. Paragraph 16 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

Witness Security Programme

I have been informed that the Witness Security Programme is under the control and administration of the Garda Commissioner and his senior officers and the funds are allocated to a separate subhead of the Garda Síochána Vote to ensure accountability in reporting of expenditure of these moneys. There is continuous review and assessment of the cases dealt with under the programme.

A public bank account has been set up for the disbursement of funds under this programme and the Commissioner is the sole signatory on this account.

The account is operated by the Commissioner requesting funds from the Accounting Officer of the Department. The funds are drawn by way of an imprest from the Garda Síochána Vote, and in this respect funds are requested, total expenditure reported and audit trails maintained in a similar fashion to drawdowns from the Secret Service Vote. Appropriate arrangements are also in place, to ensure that funds are transferred into the account only as required and that large balances are not lying idle in the account.

My audit of this expenditure is therefore limited to the procedure that applies to the Secret Service Vote and I accordingly rely on certificates signed by the Accounting Officer and the Garda Commissioner to the effect that the money was properly drawn by way of an imprest from the Garda Síochána Vote (£60,000 in 1998) and that the expenditure from that imprest (£41,608) was properly expended and was solely for the purpose of the Witness Security Programme.

Mr. Purcell

Paragraph 16 refers to the special accountability arrangements which have been put in place to cover expenditure under the witness security programme introduced in 1997. Although £7,700 was issued from the relevant subhead in 1997, no payments were made and the money remained on hand at the end of the year. In 1998, £60,000 was issued from the subhead and payments totalling £41,000 or so were made, leaving a balance at the end of 1998 of about £26,000. The amounts involved are immaterial in the context of the Vote expenditure and in the circumstances I do not have a problem with not having audit access. It seems reasonable that arrangements similar to those which apply to the Secret Service Vote should apply here also. The paragraph is purely for information and relates to new expenditure. It is not subject to audit but, given the amount involved and the circumstances in which these payments are made, it seems very reasonable.

Has the witness security programme been a success to date? I note that the imprest was for £60,000 of which two thirds or £41,000 was drawn down. I do not know whether a secrecy element applies to this matter, but can Mr. Dalton tell us how many cases or persons have been involved in the programme to date?

Mr. Dalton

Not only is the witness security programme a success, but, unfortunately, it is an absolute necessity in a modern society. I would like to mention the arrangements that apply to the programme. There is a committee which sits under the commissioner, consisting of some senior gardaí, who are not the investigating gardaí, together with a representative of the DPP. They consider the case of these individuals. They are usually people who give important evidence in the case of organised crime, although not necessarily organised crime, because we do not have paramilitary situations of this type at the moment. In the case of organised crime, they would consider whether the evidence is vital and if it is, the level of risk. In some cases, the assessment is that the risk is terminal and, in those circumstances, they make special arrangements to guard people within the country. In time, it will extend to change of identity and change of location to other parts of the world. That is what is involved in the security programme.

I would prefer not to say how many are involved but it is a small number. As far as I know, most are still in the jurisdiction. This programme will become a little more expensive as we relocate people. A fairly thorough audit is done of the witness before he goes on the programme. He is obliged to disclose everything about his financial circumstances and so on so that they can see how much is really needed. Sometimes it can be significant in that one is effectively isolating somebody somewhere else with a new identity. It is very successful and, sadly, very necessary.

It is vital it is handled properly. For example, the commissioner talks to me about this but I do not ask him where he is sending someone because I am better off not knowing. I am sure he would tell me if I wanted to know. It has to operate on the basis of trust. I know the individuals involved but I do not want to know there they are going. I would depend on the committee to say we need a certain amount of money to deal with X or Y. It is not an individual decision; the committee decides.

This will become a little more expensive with the passage of time because some people who will appear before the courts have the necessary connections to take a witness out and a family, if necessary. I do not believe there is any other way to operate it other than the way it is being done at the moment. It is like the Secret Service Vote in that we can look at it again. If it becomes extremely expensive, I will begin to wonder. I might start to give evidence myself.

In the context of this committee, from where would the request come and who would sanction it? Would ministerial sanction be required for the amount or would the Department sanction it? Is it an open-ended request?

Mr. Dalton

The way it works is that the commissioner would write to me, tell me it is for the witness security programme and I would sanction it. Obviously, if he suddenly asked me for £10 million, for example, we would have a longer conversation. The amount of money in question is understandable in the circumstances. It is as well to keep it tight and with the committee which deals with it. It is satisfactory at the moment, but we can always revisit it.

We will note that paragraph and move on to paragraph 17.

Paragraphs 17, 18 and 19 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General read:

17. Capital Projects

Capital projects at prisons are carried out on occasions on behalf of the Department of Justice Equality and Law Reform by the Office of Public Works (OPW). Each year I review a sample of capital projects so as to satisfy myself that contracting authorities adhere to public procedures for managing capital projects. In this regard, the sample includes projects which have just commenced, are ongoing, or have been completed. The final payments on a completed contract may not arise for some period after the project has been completed. However, if in the course of my review I note that there are matters which may have ongoing implications for the way projects are managed, I may deem it necessary to include a reference to them in my report, even though the project had been completed some years previously. Two such projects are outlined in the following paragraphs.

18. Castlerea Prison Perimeter Wall

The original cost estimate of the Perimeter Wall project at Castlerea prison prepared during the design stage in February 1994 was £3.57m while a second cost estimate prepared in April 1994 was £2.5m. Tenders were to be sought from 9 contractors short-listed from 46 firms who had declared their interest in the project. The Government did not agree to this restrictive tender approach and decided that an open tender competition be held.

Following receipt of 36 tenders the lowest one in the sum of £1.18m was accepted in May 1994. The successful tenderer had been declared as unsuitable when the original short listing assessment was carried out.

The completed contract price came to £1.2m and the project was completed in 1995.

In response to my inquiry as to why the cost estimates were so significantly higher than the contract price, the Accounting Officer of Office of Public Works stated that the estimates were guided by the cost of the Wheatfield Prison Wall, which although similar, was constructed differently but which was the only like project undertaken by the Office of Public Works in the modern era. The disparity between the estimate and the lowest bid reflects the keenness of the tender competition, and in particular the pricing approach adopted by the lowest bidder who, to quote the quantity surveyor's tender report has adopted a keen price and risk taking method.

As to why a restricted tendering procedure was considered by the Office of Public Works to be appropriate in this case, the Accounting Officer stated that the tendering procedure to be used depends on the particular circumstances pertaining to the project. In this instance the size of the project and the nature of the work (i.e. on a security installation) restrictive tendering was appropriate. The Department of Justice Equality and Law Reform concurred with this view.

In the light of experience of this project, I inquired whether criteria for using restricted tendering have been revised to ensure that optimum value for money is achieved in the awarding of contracts. The Accounting Officer informed me that the Office of Public Works holds the view that the use of restricted tendering does not inhibit the achievement of optimum value for money. In addition, the existing criteria for using restricted tendering in the prisons context are not solely concerned with economic considerations (although they naturally form a large part) but also deal with issues particular to the security aspects of such projects.

19. Castlerea Prison Project

A design and build contract is one where the building client contracts with a developer/contractor to purchase a building complete in every respect and suitable for the intended purpose, at a fixed price. So as to ensure that design and build contracts are successful from an economic and cost control perspective it is vital that the outline design and specifications for such projects are clearly defined before tenders are sought so as to ensure that changes and/or additional works do not arise once the contract is awarded. However, during audit I noted that the Castlerea Prison design and build project which was contracted to cost £12.7m was completed at a cost of £14.34m.

In March 1994, the Government decided to provide accommodation for 150 male prisoners in Castlerea. The project involved the conversion of the existing hospital building to use as a prison and the construction of some new buildings. It was also agreed that the design and build method of procurement should be used for this project.

During 1994, the Office of Public Works (OPW), acting as contracting agent for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Department), invited 19 contractors to apply for inclusion in the pre-qualifying process. Fourteen positive responses were received and, following assessment by Office of Public Works, were ranked in order of merit. In March 1995, tender documents were issued by Office of Public Works to 7 firms as:

-4 had been ranked as highly suitable

-1 had previous involvement in prison work

-1 had previous experience of design and build developments and was located in the area

-1, though ranked 13th in the order of merit, had a design team on board who had experience of prison work in the UK and was classed as a wild card.

Following discussion with the Construction Industry Federation, Office of Public Works reduced the list of invitees from 7 to 4 but no tenders were received as, in June 1995, the Government decided to defer the project. In March 1996, the Department requested Office of Public Works to revise the project to effect cost savings, to reduce the prison accommodation from 150 to 120 and to construct a less elaborate prison within the budget of £12-13m.

Tender documents were re-issued in November 1996 to the 4 firms previously selected by Office of Public Works and four tenders were received, ranging from £11m (by the firm previously ranked 13th out of 14) to £23.5m. The tender documents issued to the firms included a design brief indicating the extent of the work to be carried out and the costs to be covered in the tender proposal.

Following review by Office of Public Works, the lowest tender was increased to £12.7m to adjust for an error of £200,000, the inclusion of VAT at £1.38m and the provision of a bond at a cost of £75,000. It was also agreed that payment of £250,000 to the local authority for a sewerage connection would be paid by the Department, even though the tender documents issued to the four firms required its inclusion.

It was further proposed by the tenderer, prior to the execution of the contract in January 1997, to substitute precast concrete for concrete block work (as proposed by Office of Public Works) in the construction of cell walls as this would provide an additional 12 cells. The proposal was accepted, at an extra cost of £247,500, the work to be carried out under a separate contract.

The project was completed in 1998 and the full cost came to £14.34m comprising

£m

12.70

Design and Build contract

0.22

Sewerage Connection

0.25

Extra spaces as a result of change in cell block construction

1.17

Additional costs after work commenced.

In reply to my inquiry as to whether the assessment of contractors was satisfactory given that the contractor who was eventually successful was ranked 13th out of 14 in the order of merit, before being included in the short list of 4 who were invited to tender, the Accounting Officer informed me that:

The Office of Public Works have informed him that it is considered that the assessment procedure was satisfactory, given the factors applying at the time. The assessment was based on information and data supplied, on request, by the candidates and which was current and valid at the time the evaluation was carried out. The criteria employed were also considered directly appropriate to this particular project, given the procurement method proposed.

The placing achieved by the successful contractor following the assessment process did not necessarily reflect adversely on either that particular contractor or the assessment method used. The assessment did not, for example, conclude that this contractor, (or indeed any of the other candidate contractors), was incapable of carrying out the work, but merely said that, on an objective analysis based on the requirements of the project, the information supplied by candidates, the accepted criteria employed to evaluate that data and the Office of Public Works's own knowledge of the firm in question, this was the appropriate rating.

It should be noted that the successful contractor for the project had already tendered and completed successfully the construction of the prison wall at Castlerea, at a very competitive price. (see paragraph 18).

As a design and build contract should include all costs to provide a suitable prison building, I inquired as to why the proposed sewerage connection estimated at £250,000 and the additional spaces costing £247,500 were not included in the tender proposals received from the successful applicant. In this regard I noted that the contractor expressly excluded any local authority charges from his tender bid price contrary to the tender document requirement.

The Accounting Officer informed me that:

The sewerage scheme as originally designed and tendered for envisaged that there would not be a need for onsite sewerage treatment. The preferred option in dealing with this matter was to connect directly to the public system and this was the solution pursued by Office of Public Works. The existing public system did not have the capacity to deal with the volume of effluent from the proposed Prison so this option was not feasible. However, following discussions with the local authority and the Department of the Environment and Local Government, the Department and Office of Public Works became aware that there was a proposal, by Roscommon County Council, to construct a new public town sewerage scheme for Castlerea and in that context, it was logical that provision should be made to allow the County Council to connect the Prison directly into this new scheme and thus obviate the need for any arrangements to be made within the contract to deal with this item. An agreement was reached between the County Council and the Department that the cost, to the Department, of this connection and associated works would be £250,000. This would have had the dual benefit of removing a significant element of work from the project and also ensuring that there would not be a need to provide for a continuing expense in future years in maintaining sewerage plant on site. The County Council had no difficulty with this proposal and consented to allow the direct connection to be put in place.

As the project progressed through the construction phase however, it became apparent that, contrary to previous indications the new public scheme proposed for Castlerea was not, in fact, likely to be provided in the timescale previously indicated. The Department of the Environment and Local Government confirmed this to the Department as the contract for the Prison was nearing completion. In this context, the Department was obliged to make separate arrangements for the treatment of sewage. An onsite solution was eventually adopted, since neither of the public options was then feasible. The Department following a separate tender competition entered into a separate contract with a different contractor to install a suitable modern sewerage treatment plant exclusively for the prison at a cost of £220,227.

The proposal to provide additional spaces was not made by the contractor in his tender because his price was based strictly on the tender documentation supplied. The proposal was made separately, later, on his own initiative and was specifically approved by the Inter-Departmental Committee (Departments of Justice, Finance and Office of Public Works) overseeing the Accelerated Prison Programme on the basis that it represented good value for money and should therefore be availed of.

In reply to my inquiry as to why £1.17m additional costs arose following the award of the design and build contract the Accounting Officer stated that these arose in order to deal with new requirements arising since the original design and matters which could not have been foreseen at the outset but which were necessary for the proper completion of the works. These included:

£768,000 for the inclusion of Palmreaders and Audio Visual Units on doors and gates, the provision of fibre optic cabling between blocks, variations to doors and additional fencing. As the project developed, the Department became aware of the use of Palmreaders and Audio-Visual Units to gates and doors in prisons in Northern Ireland and the UK, where they proved to be very effective and cost-cutting. The installation of these devices in Castlerea has achieved staff savings in the region of 20 staff posts at a saving of £380,000 per annum. This will result in substantial savings over the coming years. The variation on the doors, the fibre optic cabling, additional fencing and other works were items which were identified during the construction period and were necessary for the proper completion of the works and the smooth running of the prison.

£181,000 for sundry work including £78,500 for a water softening system. The water softening system was recommended by the technical engineers to prevent the build up of limescale on all the hot water equipment, which would have caused difficulties to the smooth operation of a working prison. The other principal items of expenditure were the provision of service ducts between Block B and the south west gatelock and the provision of firehose reels and enclosures. These were essential items which were required for the prison.

£114,000 to construct a surface water drain. (Though the tender documents issued to the four firms required the inclusion of such a drainage system in the tender price, I noted that the contractor specifically excluded provision for this in his successful tender proposal). Towards the end of the contract, it became apparent that a scheme of works would be required to rectify a problem which was then becoming apparent in relation to the system of surface water drainage. Historically, since the former hospital had been constructed, the surface and foul water systems had fed into one unified sewerage treatment plant. The system then in place was designed to cope with this. However, when the new prison sewerage system was constructed, it became apparent that this method of mixing foul and surface water would not be possible, since the more modern system proposed required that the two feeds could not be mixed. For this reason, it was necessary to put a project in place to separate the two and provide a separate outfall for the surface water, since it would, if it continued to drain into the sewerage system, interfere with the efficient operation of the sewerage system. The scheme of works to give effect to this proposal was put out to tender and was awarded, after competition, to the on site contractor.

£55,000 for securing and making good the west wing. During the course of the contract, the contractor used the former hospital west wing as his base of operations/site office. This meant that he did not have to set up temporary site office accommodation and thus avoided incurring costs (which would ultimately have had to be borne by the Department under the contract). Since the building had up to recently been occupied, a minimum of work was necessary to bring it up to an acceptable standard. No specific prison related use had been established for the building by the time the contract had been completed and the contractor vacated the site. In the interim, until a final decision was made on the long-term use to which the premises would be put, it was decided that, in order to prevent the building from falling into disrepair, a scheme of works should be put in place which would weatherproof the premises and establish a stable environment so that the building fabric would not deteriorate. This was especially relevant given the onset of winter when, unprotected, the building might have been vulnerable to frost and rain damage in particular. The contractor on site was awarded the contract for the works required after a competitive tender process and the necessary protection was duly applied to the building so that it could remain in relatively good condition pending a decision as to its future.

£48,000 for a water main which was a requirement made by Roscommon County Council. The works included the extension and diversion of the water main with appropriate connections and junctions, as well as a 100mm spare duct in one of the trenches for future use.

The Accounting Officer also stated that consideration should be given to the fact that this was the Department's first experience of a design and build project. Because of the experience gained through this project, he has ensured that on current design and build projects under way there is a greater involvement of the Department's technical staff at all stages of the project. This leads to more cost effective and smooth running of the contract.

Mr. Purcell

With your permission, I will take paragraphs 17, 18 and 19 together because they centre around the theme of Castlerea prison. Paragraph 17 gives a brief outline of the way we approached the audit of capital projects in prisons and, in that sense, it is an introduction to paragraphs 18 and 19 which consider different aspects of the capital works undertaken at Castlerea prison.

Paragraph 18 goes back to 1994-5 when the security wall around the old hospital was built as a precursor to the adaptation of the hospital to serve as a prison. The Office of Public Works, which acted as agents for the Department, estimated that the cost of constructing the wall would be within the range £2.5 million to £3.5 million. It also went for a restricted tender competition but the Government did not agree to this approach and instructed that an open competition should be held. As it happened, this turned out to be what might be called an inspired decision because the wall was built for only £1.2 million by the successful tenderer, who had been excluded from the earlier restricted list on the basis that he was unsuitable.

For me this seemed to call into question the estimating methods used by the Office of Public Works, the appropriateness of the restricted tender procedure to this type of contract and the quality of the evaluation of contractors' capabilities by the Office of Public Works. Although the Prison Vote ultimately bore the cost of this project, it would appear that the primary accountability for these matters rests with the Accounting Officer of the Office of Public Works with whom I corresponded. The Committee may wish to take the matter up with him when he comes before it in the next few weeks, although the Accounting Officer of the Department is here today and it was ultimately under the Votes for which he is charged that these occurred. Management of the wall project, as I understand it, was almost exclusively in the hands of the Office of Public Works.

Paragraph 19 draws attention to the contract for the conversion of the existing hospital building for use as a prison and the construction of some new buildings. The works were completed in 1998. In this case, a different approach to the traditional way of placing a contract on the basis of detailed plans, specifications and drawings, for example, was adopted. It involved using a design and build contract under which the contractor undertook to provide a building complete in every respect and suitable for its intended purpose for an agreed price in line with an outlying design brief and specification.

The perceived benefits of a pure design and build approach include innovation in design and transfer a full responsibility for delivering a suitable product to the contractor. The procedure adopted by the Office of Public Works on the Department's behalf was a type of halfway house approach, which threw up its own problems. For example, there were problems with the local authority about sewage disposal from the prison which lead to the installation of a sewage treatment plant, exclusively for the prison and within the prison complex. This, in turn, resulted in the need to spend a further £114,000 on the construction of a surface water drain.

The desirability of installing palm readers and audio visual units on doors and gates was only recognised during the course of construction, although these had been in use in prisons in Britain and Northern Ireland and had proved very effective in cost cutting. It is not unreasonable to suggest the applicability of this type of modern security technology should have been known to the Department at the outset. On the other hand, it is a case of better late than never and on that basis, the Department could be commended.

The Accounting Officer points out that consideration should be given to the fact that this was the Department's first experience of a design and build project and because of the experience gained in this case, he has ensured that there is greater involvement by the Department's technical staff at all stages of current design and build projects which he says is leading to more cost effective and smooth running of the underlying contracts.

I agree with the Comptroller and Auditor General that we should take up this issue and the question of capital projects with the Accounting Officer of the Office of Public Works. A formula must be designed which will enable us to do things more efficiently. On the prison, I understand the changes brought about by new technology, such as palm readers and the audio visual units used on doors and gates. The installation of these would save 20 staff positions at a saving of £380,000 per annum. With changes in technology, I can understand that. However, the idea of having difficulties providing a sewerage system and not seeing this at the outset seems crazy. It seems to be a totally inept approach by the technical staff to the whole project. If one was only building a house, one would be aware of the physical requirements immediately. Chairman, obviously the Secretary General will be more concerned with the revenue aspect and the staffing, etc., but I think the Committee must take up this issue with the Office of Public Works. It sounds ludicrous that a prison was designed with an inadequate sewerage system.

I am glad to see that new technology will lead to more efficient staffing. In light of the recent announcement of the transfer from Portlaoise of special category prisoners to Castlerea, how does the Secretary General see that changing the staffing requirements in general, both at Castlerea and Portlaoise? Will it free up many staff at Portlaoise Prison? How will it blend in with the envisaged staffing at Castlerea?

Mr. Dalton

This must be seen in the context of the developments which are taking place in the North. In fact, today is a very significant day in that regard. Part of the thinking is that under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement a certain category of prisoner, namely, members of the Provisional IRA, are due for release in May 2000, assuming the various conditions in the Agreement are fulfilled - but that is the general thought. Many of the prisoners concerned are actually out on various courses at present. This is done on a fortnight in, fortnight out basis. The Department does not see at this time the need to maintain this particular group of prisoners in the kind of high security arrangements which prevail at Portlaoise. In fact, it does not make a lot of sense to have people, who are in a fortnight, out a fortnight, surrounded by extreme security when they are in prison.

That is not to say that we can reduce the security at Portlaoise immediately because unfortunately there are prisoners in the prison who do not subscribe to the Good Friday Agreement and who are still on a war footing. In addition, some of the major organised crime figures in the State who are in prison are actually in that same block. Therefore, it may not impact.

I expect there will be impacts on staffing at Portlaoise arising out of a study which we may come to mention later, but this particular change - incidentally it has yet to be formally signed off by the Minister; what is going on at present is an assessment of that issue but I expect it will be signed off by the Minister shortly - will not have an impact immediately on the staffing at Castlerea Prison. In the longer term, there will be an impact on the staffing at Portlaoise Prison but that will depend on the number and disposition of anti-Good Friday Agreement paramilitary style prisoners who may be there and also on the number of organised crime figures at Portlaoise Prison.

The wall turned out to be a very good deal in the end. What needs to be borne in mind about this, as regards the particular building contractor, is that the only ground on which this firm came under the heading of unsuitable at the beginning was that it did not have a track record in this country but it was very anxious to get one because it is one of the major building contractors in the UK. Naturally the firm knew it was building a wall and that something in the form of a prison was going on inside it. Therefore, it made a lot of sense from the firm's point of view to be highly competitive in building this wall. It was virtually impossible to compete with the firm because it is a major contractor.

The Department was extremely impressed with the firm. I am just concerned in case we leave the impression that the firm was unsuitable. We were extremely impressed with this group. They built the wall on time and at a price which we never expected, and they went on and did the prison by and large to contract also. I think the only major thing the firm changed is that it proposed to use pre-cast instead of block work. That gave us a good bargain also because the firm managed to give us 12 extra cells in that process at a price which is well below the market rate.

As far as I know, the same contractors have since got another major contract in the midlands, which is the biggest individual project the Department has undertaken since Wheatfield Prison. It is a huge complex. Again the firm is performing very well there and doing things to schedule. Overall, that experience the Department had with design and build was a good one.

As regards the sewerage system, this was a saga, if that is not an inappropriate term to use. The Department began believing that the prison could be connected to the local Castlerea system. The Castlerea system proved to be inadequate. We were then told that Roscommon County Council was putting in a system which would be adequate. Unfortunately we were ready to go before they were so we had to put a system into the prison itself or we could not put prisoners in there. That is how we ended up paying about £220,000. We would have preferred if we had connected it to a mains because we would not have the problem of maintaining a plant, etc., on site but we did not have a choice. Incidentally, it was done by a separate contractor. It was not done by the contractor who built the prison. It is not a satisfactory situation but it was the only thing we could do in order to get prisoners in there.

The one quote from the Comptroller and Auditor General's comments which jumps out is that the quantity surveyor involved stated that the builder adopted a keen price and a risk taking method. I would like to see a little more of that and this is why the Committee needs to talk to the Office of Public Works. We are bound up in - I will not say bureaucracy because that is not fair - old fashioned methods of doing works. As there is huge money involved, we need to be a little innovative.

The Office of Public Works will be back before the Committee on the 21 December.

Would you be available on that day, Mr. Dalton?

Mr. Dalton

Yes.

I have one other question. Castlerea Prison was built for 150 prisoners, was it not?

Mr. Dalton

Yes, 150.

Is the new formula - the change - a short-term measure, as Mr. Dalton outlined, or will it affect the long-term? Will we return to the target of 150?

Mr. Dalton

It is a place with capacity for many more if ever we need it. There is a whole block which was part of the old hospital which is not being used now. We are having a look at it at present because without a great deal of cost it may well be possible to make that suitable for a certain type of prisoner, for example, sex offenders, who are less difficult to manage than other prisoners, or other prisoners - maybe older prisoners. The Department is thinking about it. We have not made any decisions yet because there is a great deal of prison building going on at present.

I would ask that a more flexible approach be taken to the minding of prisoners. Mr. Dalton just made mention of a couple of groups. I know that when the first prisoner escapes we will all be up in arms saying that the Department should have done better, but there is a need to get away from the strict regime in many cases, where people are no threat whatsoever and obviously an assessment is done. I hope that approach will be adopted at Castlerea Prison.

Mr. Dalton

Yes. Talking about prisoners who are no threat whatsoever, possibly the planned creation of a parole board would have an impact there in time in that prisoners who may not now get concessions because of the nature of their offences may get concessions in the future. I just do not know. Apart from Portlaoise Prison and possibly Mountjoy Prison, where there are some fairly serious offenders also, the tendency is to try to keep the security appropriate to the actual need of the place.

Does the Secretary General agree that the failure to identify the impact of modern technology and technological practices at an early planning stage was a little careless?

Mr. Dalton

It was not that the Department was not aware of it; it was that we were not satisfied that it was foolproof. In fact, it is a developing technology. It was only as the project was going on that we became satisfied that it was actually foolproof. It is the same with all technologies in the prison. One must be careful because the people one would like to keep with you are very adept when it comes to dealing with modern technology. The Department is quite satisfied that this actually works and it will be a feature in other prisons.

I want to return to the subject of Castlerea Prison. Mr. Dalton is obviously anxious to answer questions about Castlerea Prison wall. It would be an understatement to say that I am completely unsatisfied with the tendering processes adopted. I am astonished by what occurred. Who took the decision to put in place a restrictive tendering process where only nine out of the 46 contracting firms that applied were allowed to tender? The best contract price offered by those nine firms was £3.57 million but when the work was offered on an unrestricted basis the wall was built for £1.2 million. If the original process had proceeded, the successful company would have made an additional profit of approximately £1.4 million for building the perimeter wall. Who took the decision to establish a restrictive tendering process in the first instance?

Mr. Dalton

That would be the Office of Public Works. The only requirement we have is that there would be a reputable contractor who would be reliable from a security point of view. These are not excessively difficult hurdles to overcome. From that point onwards, the Office of Public Works would make the decision about the restrictive contract, etc.

We will deal with the Office of Public Works's involvement when its officials appear before us. However, from the point of view of dealing with Vote 21, it is nothing short of a scandal that the State would have lost at least £2.3 million if the restrictive tendering process had been allowed to proceed. Was the contract for building the wall at a cost of £1.2 million completed?

Mr. Dalton

It was completed and on time. Without saying what influence it had on it, Members should bear in mind that the firms involved are huge contractors by international standards who wanted to get a foot in the door in Ireland. They knew a prison was to be built following the construction of the wall and, therefore, they were keen to win the contract to a point where, possibly, other contractors were not. If they were building a wall and nothing else, I do not know if we would have come in at £1.7 million. However, I cannot answer the Deputy's question completely. Obviously, it is difficult to argue with the point he is making.

When they contracted to build the wall, they had no idea they would be successful in winning the second contract.

Mr. Dalton

That is true, but they would know that we would be fairly impressed.

The final outcome does not matter. I am anxious to discover how anyone could suggest putting in place a restrictive tendering process for building a wall around a prison in order to exclude those who offered to build it for £2.5 million less than any of the original nine selected firms. The building of the wall could have proceeded, irrespective of security and other implications. Mr. Dalton has acknowledged that the contract was successfully completed for £1.2 million. I will have a number of serious questions to put to the officials of the Office of Public Works when they appear before the committee because there would have been a scandalous waste of State funds if the original tendering process had proceeded. Someone should be answerable for that.

I suggest that we leave our consideration of these paragraphs until the officials of the Office of Public Works appear before us.

That is fine. However, I also want to investigate the position in respect of the contract for the building of the main prison. The original contract price for this was £12.7 million and the completed cost was £14.3 million. The difference between the two can be explained by taking added costs, changes, etc., into consideration. However, two different tendering processes were used. Following the completion of the original tendering process, with discussions between contractors, etc., people became aware of the contract prices that were offered. In those circumstances, it is fair or just that the same contractors were allowed to participate in the second tendering process. Who was responsible for putting in place such a process?

Mr. Dalton

The Office of Public Works acts as our agent in respect of the preparation and formation of contracts, etc., and we rely on its guidance. I fully understand the concerns expressed by the Deputy and I accept that it is the role of the Public Accounts Committee to query value for money issues, etc. However, I also see merit in the suggestion made by the Chairman in respect of finalising discussions on this matter when officials of the Office of Public Works, who are central to it, appear before the committee.

I look forward to that. However, who was responsible for appointing the Office of Public Works to serve as the Department's agent? From the evidence we have seen, it appears that its officials did not use their expertise very well. Why do these people continue to serve as the Department's agents?

Mr. Dalton

The Office of Public Works is the State's agent in respect of all major works. We have done it both ways actually. For contracts below a certain level, the Department has issued contracts directly and we have also run into trouble in that regard. However, for large contracts of this kind it is the practice to rely on the Office of Public Works - I would say this practice applies in all Departments. Its officials are the only experts we have in this area.

I suggest that we give serious consideration to ending that practice because, from the evidence we saw today, I am not happy with the Office of Public Works's input. As the Chairman suggested, we will put questions on this matter to its officials. Besides asking the Office of Public Works to put in place a tendering process, what other means could the Department have used to have the perimeter wall built around the prison? If a tendering process had to be used, why would there be a need to obtain an estimate for the cost of the works from the Office of Public Works before that process was put in train?

Mr. Dalton

Because there is no one in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform who would know whether a builder's estimate was sound or unsound. There is one architect in the Department but there is no possible way he could handle something as complex as a business——

No, that is not my question. A tendering process, regardless of whether is it carried out by the Office of Public Works, the Department or some other agency, must be competitive. Why would there be a need to obtain an estimate of the cost in advance of such a competitive process when it would be necessary to have a professional assess the tenders received to ensure that they were correct?

Mr. Dalton

In the first instance, the Government must know how much money will be involved. That is essential.

Yes, but as a result of this process the Government had no clue about how much money was involved because the lowest original tender estimated the cost at £3.57 million. We have now discovered that this was not the real cost.

Mr. Dalton

That is true, but if we did not follow this procedure I would have no basis at all for approaching the Minister. If I decided tomorrow morning that I wanted to build a prison and I approached the Minister——

It was a prison wall at this stage.

Mr. Dalton

——to inform him of my intentions and he asked me how much it would cost, I would have to look at him blankly. All I could do in the circumstances is ask somebody with some knowledge - by the way the Office of Public Works is the only organisation in the State with experience of building prisons or prison walls——

Its officials did not display such experience in this case.

Mr. Dalton

I will have to let the officials of the Office of Public Works defend themselves on that. However, they are the only people we would think of approaching because I know of no one else who has this kind of experience.

In seeking to proceed with a building project I would have to say to the Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Finance "This wall, according to the best expertise, will cost about——

£3.57 million.

Mr. Dalton

There is no other way of doing it. Perhaps this example is not a good one but, by and large, we have found that the figures supplied by the Office of Public Works are usually in the right ballpark. No one in my Department, including me, would have a clue about the cost of a prison wall. As I recall, what happened in this case was that the cost was guessed on the basis of what it had cost to build the wall around Wheatfield Prison - approximately £8 million. I do not know exactly how it was done but it looks like the cost for the Castlerea wall was extrapolated from the figure which applied at Wheatfield. It was a totally different experience.

When are the officials of the Office of Public Works due to appear before the committee?

On 21 December.

We will give them a Christmas present.

I take it, therefore, that we will continue our consideration on these paragraphs on that date. We will now proceed to paragraph 20 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General which reads:

20. Compensation

In June 1998, the High Court at a sitting in Ennis awarded £796,654 plus costs, against the State in special and general damages on foot of a personal injuries case brought by a former prison officer following an accident at work in 1995. At the opening of the trial, the plaintiff made an offer to settle on £300,000, plus costs. However, despite the repeated advice of its Senior Counsel to accept this offer, the Department refused to concede liability and, on the advice of the Attorney General, responded with its own offer of less than £200,000. The offer was rejected by the plaintiff and the Department conceded liability on the third day of the trial. Following the High Court award the Department and the Attorney General considered an appeal to the Supreme Court but following negotiations between the plaintiff and the Attorney General a settlement of £550,000, plus plaintiff's costs of £150,182 was agreed in July 1998. As the State costs came to £37,790 the overall cost of this case was £737,972.

The following matters were noted during audit review of the case:

The Senior Counsel for the State had advised on every occasion that he was consulted before and during the trial that, on the basis of the evidence available to him, the court was very likely to find in favour of the plaintiff, damages were likely to be substantial and settlement on the best terms should be considered.

There were no defence witnesses in court who could contradict the plaintiff's statements on the circumstances of the accident, nor was there any evidence to contradict the charge of negligence on the part of the State. The defence evidence which was available tended to support the plaintiff's case.

There was no medical evidence available to the defence which could challenge the plaintiff's evidence in relation to injuries suffered as a result of the accident, or which could challenge his claim for damages. The medical expert retained on behalf of the defence was not present in court. The defence rehabilitation expert, who was present, advised that he could not contradict the plaintiff's claim that he would never be employed again in any capacity.

Counsel's initial damages estimate of £150,000 was revised to £300,000 days before trial, but was qualified by his statement that he still did not have any proper information on the plaintiff's loss of income to date, what he would be earning if still employed, or the capital value of his loss of earnings into the future. He reiterated his advice that the State was likely to lose the case and warned that the Department's termination of the plaintiff's employment some nine months previously on grounds of permanent ill health, of which he had just been informed, would have a disastrous effect on damages, particularly his claim for loss of earnings into the future.

The plaintiff's claim for special damages was based on an actuarial report on loss of income, which, together with the evidence of the plaintiff's actuary, was accepted by the court as providing the basis for the special damages award of £496,654. An actuarial report was provided for the State just before trial but, according to the Senior Counsel, it did not differ in any significant way from that of the plaintiff. The defence actuary was not present in court. The Senior Counsel advised that he did not have and was not given any instruction, information, material or witnesses which would have enabled him to present any challenge in court to the plaintiff's claim.

The Senior Counsel concluded that the true extent of the plaintiff's condition was not appreciated by the Department and the Attorney General's Office.

As it appeared that the failure to prepare adequately for the case, to assess its full implications and to disregard its Senior Counsel's repeated advice to settle the case when the opportunity to do so was available resulted in significant additional costs for the State, I sought the views of the Accounting Officers of the Department and of the Attorney General's Office.

The Accounting Officer of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform informed me that:

Though the Senior Counsel had advised at an early stage that a Court was very likely to find in favour of the plaintiff, this was not accepted by the Department as there were areas of concern in relation to some aspects of the case, principally regarding the circumstances of the accident.

The attendance by and reports of expert witness were a matter for the Office of the Chief State Solicitor (CSSO).

On Thursday 18 June 1998 the Attorney General requested the Chief State Solicitor to obtain a settlement figure from Counsel and to see about settling the case. On Monday 22 June 1998 the Department was advised by the CSSO that Counsel said that plaintiff's Counsel was looking for £500,000 but might settle for £300,000. The CSSO also said that the Attorney General was not in favour of settling for £300,000. In the absence of the agreement of the Attorney General it was not open to the Department to agree a settlement.

The State's Senior Counsel contacted the Department directly on Tuesday 23 June 1998, the first day of the trial. He said that due to the plaintiff's condition he would get well in excess of £300,000, possibly £400,000 and that there might be contributory negligence of 25%, but he was not sure. Counsel said that the State would definitely fail on liability. With the agreement of the Attorney General's Office an offer to settle up to £200,000 was made on Wednesday 24 June 1998. The Attorney General advised, via the CSSO, later that day to concede liability (in order to prevent an escalation of legal costs), thus leaving it to the Court to assess damages. At all stages the advice of the CSSO and the Attorney General's Office was followed.

It should be noted that the award of the Court was considerably in excess of the highest estimate from the State's Counsel. In addition, the Counsel's views on the question of an appeal were not accepted by the Attorney General. By following the advice of the Attorney General a reduction of £246,654 was achieved on the High Court award of £796,654, whereas the Counsel's advice was that a reduction of less than £150,000 was likely.

The Accounting Officer of the Office of the Attorney General stated that:

The information about the termination of the plaintiff's employment on medical grounds and the actuarial and medical reports on the case were only received by his office just before the case commenced. The rehabilitation evidence and the Prison Governor's report on the plaintiff and the veracity of his claim only became available on the day of the hearing. The last minute provision of information and the lack of communication from the local State Solicitor on how the case was faring meant that those in a position to sanction a settlement were not up to date with the dramatic escalation in the value put on the case.

Liability is kept as an issue in a case for tactical reasons. It is the recollection of the Attorney General's Office that it advised the Department via the CSSO on the day before the trial (22 June 1998) that liability should be conceded. The advice was given at the same time that an offer of £180,000 was suggested.

The time available to settle the case for a sum of £300,000 was brief. The late delivery of information and the lack of communication meant that the Department had only a short time to obtain sanction. This also meant that those responsible for sanctioning a settlement were not aware of the impact the plaintiff's evidence was having in Court. There was no appreciation of why the settlement figure could move so dramatically from £200,000 to £450,000 in the same day.

The two areas of difficulty - the late delivery of information by the Department and the failure of the local State Solicitor to communicate information - were discussed at a meeting held in the wake of this case which was attended by representatives from the Office of the Attorney General and the CSSO. Proposals were discussed as to how procedures in these two areas could be improved. However, the proposal to establish a claims agency has since been developed. The deficiencies identified by this case will need to be tackled by the new Agency. In particular the Agency will need someone with the authority to sanction settlement available at pre-trial consultations and during the hearing of the case to give a speedy response to any settlement proposal.

He also stated that:

Neither the defendants nor the plaintiff in this case appreciated how great an award the judge was prepared to make.

The award was based on the favourable impact which the plaintiff made on the Court in giving evidence. The impact of a witness in a case is unpredictable and can only be taken into account as the case progresses. In general there is nothing to suggest that a settlement is always more favourable to a defendant than a judge's evaluation in a case.

The medical expert retained on behalf of the State was not present in court and Senior Counsel did not (as in the opinion of the Office of the Attorney General he should have done) seek instructions as to whether to proceed or to seek an adjournment of the case. The view of the Senior Counsel on the medical evidence is not shared by the Attorney General's Office.

Senior Counsel's advice on the offer which should be made was couched in very vague terms which were difficult to act on. Nor was it clear from his advice what new information or evidence had changed so as to alter Counsel's original advice which set a figure of £150,000 as the full value of the case. The difficulty could have been remedied by having someone on the ground at pre-trial consultations who would be aware of all the last minute detail emerging. This is the function of the local State Solicitor. Because of the Department's failure to have someone present in Ennis court and the failure of the local State Solicitor to make contact with officials in Dublin it may be understandable why these officials did not understand why the figures were changing so rapidly.

It is the opinion of the Office of the Attorney General that the amount in fact awarded by the Judge was excessive. This is borne out by the fact the case was settled for much less before the Supreme Court appeal.

Mr. Purcell

This is the last of the paragraphs and it draws attention to the financial consequences of the mismanagement of a compensation case. The case involved a personal injuries claim brought by a former prison officer following an accident at work in 1995. As far as I could see, there was a lack of co-ordination among those involved in defending the case - the Department, the Attorney General's office, the Chief State Solicitor's office, the local State Solicitor and the senior counsel, who was engaged. This seemed to result in the late provision of information vital to the State's case, a failure to ensure that defence expert witnesses in the medical and actuarial fields would be in court, a failure to appreciate how the case was proceeding and, most importantly, I think it led to not giving the go ahead to agree a recommended settlement figure which turned out to be £250,000 less than that ultimately agreed.

I hope that this case represents a glitch and is not symptomatic of the general conduct of the State's agents in the defence of personal injuries claims against it. The Committee will note from the paragraph that the Accounting Officer from the Attorney General's office informed me that the difficulties which arose were discussed at a meeting held in the wake of this case and proposals were discussed as to how certain procedures could be improved. However, any such improvements will have to be considered in the context of the proposed new State claims agency which it is intended will be handling this type of case in future.

I am glad to hear the anger in the Comptroller and Auditor General's voice about this. It is a classic exercise in inefficiency. It would be hard to highlight a better example of how not to do things. Everything from the termination of the person's employment a few months prior to the case to ensure that he could plead total lack of earnings for the future was investigated. It is difficult to understand how no defence witnesses were called or how senior counsel's advice was ignored. There is a saying in west Cork "Buy a dog and bark yourself", which is what appears to have happened in this case. A senior counsel was hired and his advice was then ignored.

The legal fees were £188,000 where an award of £550,000 was made and this is an another area which should be tackled at this stage. It is litany of inefficiencies. What steps have been taken, aside from the meeting referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, to ensure that there will be no repeat of this? Is there evidence of this happening elsewhere?

Mr. Dalton

This case deserves a bit of time because not only were a number of people at fault but the counsel was way out as well. He was talking about £300,000, possibly £400,000 with 25% contributory negligence. It turned out he was way out as well. Everybody was way out on this one. It is a case by the way in which I fully accept what the Comptroller and Auditor-General and the Deputy says about the lack of co-ordination. It is in my mind the type of case which argues for a specialised agency. I do believe it is an isolated case, incidentally, and I will come back to that.

We had concerns about this case right from the beginning. Maybe if I mention what they were it will explain where we were coming from. First of all, the circumstances under which he received his injuries and the resulting claim that there were psychological damages created a genuine doubt in our minds about the quality of the claim and, incidentally, we have disagreed with counsel in cases and have been right. While we disagreed with counsel it is very unusual not to accept the advice of the Attorney General. It does not matter what counsel says so much. We still ask the Attorney General if that is okay. We did this in this case and he said "no", that counsel's advice was not okay. He did not advise us to follow it.

Going back to the quality of claim, the quality and substance of this claim have subsequently been established and confirmed by the courts but we were not to know that at the time and in most court cases you are faced with a situation where the knowledge you have at the time can be very much at variance with the knowledge that you acquire with the benefit of hindsight. The plaintiff claimed that he slipped on a floor that was wet and broken up and he also said that he hit his head off a slop hopper and that when he got to his feet, he slipped again and hit his head off a radiator. We had an engineer on the job and he found it difficult to understand how the plaintiff could have hit his head against a slop hopper given that it was partly obscured by a partition, though the engineer acknowledged that it was a possibility. He also raised a query about how the plaintiff could have fallen both forward to hit the slop hopper and backward to hit the radiator. Apparently, when you slip on a floor you tend to fall backwards. This is the advice we got so there was a doubt there.

A fellow prison officer who was on duty an hour before the incident stated he did not see any foreign objects on the floor. Other officers in the same area made no report of seeing anything on the floor either. We understood from the prison authorities that part of the plaintiff's own duties was to ensure the floor was clean and dry. Given that that was his duty to keep the floor dry there was a substantial reason to believe that there would be a high level of contributory negligence in the fact that he fell. The floor then was not broken up, as had been claimed, but it would be slippery if wet. There was some suggestion that there was a leaking pipe in the area but there was no report of that.

A neurosurgeon who examined the plaintiff noted a marked discrepancy between his symptoms and any objective physical findings of abnormality. All in all at the beginning of this case we had a very substantial query about this claim and we would have a substantial query about any claims that would come before us. It turned out as this went on that there was much more to it than met the eye at the time.

As regards our contingent liability, according to our records we were not advised prior to the hearing to concede liability and we understand that it is part of standard legal tactics not to concede - you go full-blooded into a case as if you were going to take it all the way through. I know there is a discrepancy here. On Thursday 18 June, five days before the trial, the Attorney General asked the Chief State Solicitor to obtain a settlement figure from the other side. On Monday we were advised by the Chief State Solicitor that counsel had indicated that the other side were looking for £500,000 but that they might settle for £300,000. The Chief State Solicitor went on to tell us then that the Attorney General would not agree with this. He was talking in terms of £200,000. We would not settle beyond £200,000 in circumstances where the Attorney General was telling us that was the sort of figure we should settle for. Neither counsel, the Attorney General nor I suspect the plaintiff's own lawyers thought that we were at anything like the £800,000 figure that was eventually awarded by the court. In fact, the Attorney General has expressed the view that this was a completely excessive figure.

Anyway it was into the trial when we conceded liability. We did not do this beforehand because we were advised not to. The Attorney General at the time says that his recollection is that he said that we should have conceded liability, I think, on a day or two before the trial. Our records do not show that and I am unable, Chairman, to resolve that one. In the end, the plaintiff got £800,000 which was negotiated back to £550,000 and the whole case came to nearly £800,000 when costs were in it. It is a matter for the Chief State Solicitor's office, not the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to ensure that our witness is in court, who is there and what experts are there. It is a matter for them also and counsel to advise what proofs are necessary and so on.

However, I do have to acknowledge, and I do not want to pretend, that the Department did not do well either because the fact is that we got a minute from the Chief State Solicitor's office on 15 January with enclosures, which included counsel's opinion, advice and proofs and professional engineer's report. That was not acted upon until 29 May. I accept that that was unacceptable because that meant that the prison governor and the other people contacted by the Chief State Solicitor had very little time in which to get things organised between that and the trial date in June. They had some time but not enough.

Just one other point on the officer retiring on health grounds, we notified the Chief State Solicitor's office on that on 12 June but they knew it already from telephone conversations as far as we are concerned. In fact the solicitor for the plaintiff told them on 19 May that he had retired. We had no choice but to retire him because this man was sicker than I or any one else dealing with this knew. He genuinely suffered as a result of this and I do not want to blame this man in any way. He was injured in the prison and we are liable.

The newly appointed Director General of Prison Services, Seán Aylward, who is beside me, has initiated a full review of all the cases in the prisons and in the Department on hand at present. The IT division has been asked to devise a case management tracking system as a matter of priority. We are doing likewise in the other areas of the Department where there are substantial claims, for example the Garda. I will report back fully on what exactly we have done to ensure the likes of this never happens again.

I am pretty satisfied there is no other case like it. However, one never knows when there is liability in a situation like this. In this case, psychological damage was claimed as one of the consequences of the fall against the radiator. This is extremely difficult territory to plumb. We did not get it right - we thought it was a lot less. There have been cases in which we disagreed with counsel and we were right. There have been cases in which we disagreed with counsel and we were wrong. In this case we had no advice that was anywhere near the ballpark of the final outcome. We were at fault in holding correspondence that came from the Chief State Solicitor's office from January to May. That was unacceptable and I accept that.

Could I have a note on the suggested changes and the proposed outcome? The responsibility has already been laid elsewhere. As regards the evidence of the fellow prison officer, why were there no witnesses for the defence?

Mr. Dalton

I cannot answer that. It is for the State Solicitor to call witnesses. At the same time, I acknowledge he had precious little time to do anything because everything was heaped on him quickly. I would prefer the State Solicitor's office and possibly the AG's office to answer questions relating to them. I do not want to appear to be blaming them when we were at substantial fault for sitting on correspondence for a few months.

Having some personal knowledge of how courts work, I am not surprised at anything that happens in court. However, I am puzzled why the Department refused to concede liability at the beginning of the case and then conceded liability on the third day of the trial.

Mr. Dalton

It became apparent to counsel in the meantime that this man would certainly win on liability. The Attorney General, having considered that, decided we should concede liability.

There was no change because the advice of the senior counsel to accept liability at the beginning and settle was the same as that of the third day.

Mr. Dalton

That is not the advice we got from the AG.

So the AG changed his mind between the pre-settlement offer and the third day of the trial.

Mr. Dalton

Yes. The personal recollection of the then Attorney General - I do not know who it was, it was 1998 - is that he did say, I think two days before the trial, that we should concede liability, when they began to talk about a settlement. That is not in accordance with the records we have. Our advice on liability is recorded as coming on the second day of the trial. As I said, Chairman, I am unable to resolve that difference.

Is there an explanation for the fact that the plaintiff's costs were £150,000 and the State costs were £38,000? We appear to have expended only a quarter of what the plaintiff spent on costs. Is there any relevance between those two figures?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have those details. I would have to ask the Attorney General's office what the constituent elements of the plaintiff's costs were. I am sure he had to bring expertise to establish, for example, psychological damage which is unusual and difficult to establish. I do not know what the component parts of his costs were.

I am trying to establish whether we were lax in not having corresponding professional opinion. Obviously, if his costs were £150,000 and ours were £38,000 he must have had a different team of witnesses.

Mr. Dalton

I am unable to answer that. We would have to get the information from the State Solicitor's office. If the Deputy wishes, I can get correspondence from the State Solicitor's office and the AG's office and write to him.

We will now move on to the Votes, which we will take together.

I wish to ask about the disparity between the Department's crime figures and those of the CSO.

Please name the Vote you are discussing.

My questions are general and apply to all of them. A barometer of these figures is house burglaries which tend to be reported for insurance purposes. What was the figure for reported house burglaries in the surveys? What is the reason for the disparity under other headings?

Deputy J. Mitchell resumed in the Chair.

Mr. Dalton

We welcome these figures as they are the first of their kind. Up to now we have only had the instance of reported crime to the Garda. It is clear that some people are not reporting certain crimes and our suspicion is that they are of less serious import. They do not affect the information given out regularly about changes in crime trends because the same experience would have been the case in the past. In other words, if there was under-reporting now there was under-reporting in the past. Surveys conducted abroad demonstrate that. Something that emerges from the survey is that the proximity between the household survey and the Garda figures is much closer than corresponding figures would have been abroad. In other words, in the UK and other jurisdictions, the disparity between police figures and the household survey would be much wider. While there is a gap, it is nothing like what is being experienced elsewhere.

The fundamental explanation for the differences is that there is a proportion of crime which people do not report. There were some positive findings in this. For example, it is surprising that 92% of people feel safe in their homes. The elderly are at least risk of being victims of crime and 65% of police do a very good job. We would not have known this previously. This is the first time we have had figures such as this. The CSO warned the results should be treated with extreme caution. This is the first time it has issued such figures and it is aware they must be considered carefully. A level of under-reporting is suggested but this does not affect the information available on crime trends.

Coincidentally, I recently read a newspaper article published in 1982 which was quite cynical and stated that Friday was official armed robbery day. What is the situation regarding armed robberies?

Mr. Dalton

Armed robberies have increased in the past year but the figures are well down from what they were in 1994. My understanding is that a few gangs have returned to this business, but the Garda is working on them. Those figures will be reversed again. From 1993 to 1998, it decreased by about 70%, but it has increased this year by 26%. That is still well down, but we are concerned about it.

How effective is the presence of gardaí on the beat? Do people feel safer?

Mr. Dalton

It is very effective in terms of public reassurance. That is the area in which it is most important. When PULSE, which is the subject of other concerns at present, comes into being, the garda on the beat will be extremely effective because he will have instant communication with computers and will know what is what in a way he does not at present.

I am very involved with community councils. The community garda has been a most innovative measure and is highly valued by the public. Is it much valued by the force? Is there a career structure for community gardaí which will keep them in community garda work rather than their having to leave to go elsewhere because of promotion?

Mr. Dalton

There is a structure. I know of some people who were community gardaí, who were highly regarded and who progressed through the ranks. It is a highly valued part of policing. The only way of achieving effective policing in some of the more difficult areas is by the community involvement approach as distinct from the more traditional one which sees the Garda pass by in a car and not being in contact with the community. The community garda is a highly valued part of policing and will continue.

Regarding the career structure, I remember having to argue for the rank of sergeant for community gardaí because no such rank was available to them in the mid-1980s. Can they progress to the ranks of inspector or chief inspector? Is anyone responsible for community gardaí?

Mr. Dalton

The community garda network has its own structure. That is not to say that, if a person is a community garda, he or she will automatically become a community sergeant. I have experienced situations where people were so good at a specific rank, that the Commissioner was told that this was their niche. I would have to obtain some statistics on how people have moved through the ranks. If someone is very good at something in the Garda, whether it be in drugs or community policing, the tendency would be to try to keep them in the area in which their skills are best applied. I can obtain figures for the Deputy.

I would be grateful if Mr. Dalton could do that because it is an area into whose difficulties many inroads could be made. We previously examined the situation of gardaí attending at courts. Is there any improvement there? Has civilian participation improved? Have the target figures been achieved?

Mr. Dalton

There is progress. For example, a number of civilians have been recruited for a duty many would see as appropriate to civilianisation, namely, driving. I was present when we previously discussed a specific number of posts - 194 - which were slow to be civilianised. I will deal with them as an example of what is happening.

Some 130 clerical officers were sanctioned for the Garda in a crime package in 1997; 125 have now been filled. Thirty civilian drivers were sanctioned and 30 have been selected. The first group will start work next week. Posts for call takers for answering telephone calls have proved very slow to fill because the Civil Service Commission has had a problem recruiting people. We are now holding an internal competition for the ten posts. We await responses from the staff associations. There is a problem recruiting civilians generally at present. The situation is such that, when the cost of civilians as against uniformed gardaí is weighed up, the balance has changed. The posts of researchers have been filled as has the post of Irish language teacher. We are beginning to civilianise.

It is an issue in the Garda strategic management initiative. Some work has been done inside that group which involves significant civilianisation within the Garda Síochána. The report is still an internal document but it would see significant developments in that direction. It is tied up with an industrial relations issue which has seen some progress this week in the sense that issues have been sent for another ballot. I hope there will be a positive outcome to that next Friday week.

Can Mr. Dalton give a ballpark figure for the dividends he sees accruing from what has been achieved and what is still to come in the peace talks? What difficulties does he see in terms of staffing numbers to deal with the arrival on non-EU nationals? Does his staff have a significant involvement in that area?

Mr. Dalton

The peace dividend is of enormous proportions generally. Looking at it from a law and order perspective, the cost of the conflict ran into billions over the years. We are now able to examine the possibility of a significant re ordering of police priorities. We still have a problem in that there are people who do not subscribe to the peace, who have to be watched carefully, especially at present, and who are being kept under close surveillance. Unfortunately, while that situation persists, the full dividends of peace cannot be immediately reaped in terms of policing. However, there is a difference. The situation is very different now from when the Provisional IRA's campaign was in full swing. The country was then dealing with an organisation which had enormous capacity for conflict. I expect the dividend to come slowly but it does exist in terms of policing.

The arrival of non-nationals is imposing substantial pressure not only in terms of law and order but also on the system generally. What is involved is the potential arrival of thousands of people into a situation of a housing shortage. That is an issue. In terms of control at borders, there are limits to what can be done, although it is something to which the Garda devotes attention. We have a common travel area with the UK which means people can move freely to and from the United Kingdom. This means people can come across the Border and in through the ports. The opportunities for significant control at that point are still limited because of the common travel area arrangement.

Apart from that, a system cannot be operated which involves questioning people by reference to their ethnic origin or colour. It is not sustainable because many people come here lawfully, are welcome here and some have been born here. One cannot stop a train from Belfast because there are people of a different ethnic origin on board. They may be genuine refugees seeking refugee status here. It is a difficult problem. Already more gardaÍ are being devoted to it, so it is using resources. The priority issue has been mentioned. We have had to increase staffing in the Department to address the processing of cases, with 140 staff sanctioned since this Minister took office. The Department of Finance has just sanctioned a further 120 staff. It is becoming quite a large operation. The idea is not to leave people waiting forever for their applications to be assessed. This mirrors the experience in other jurisdictions, where one has no choice but to put large numbers of people into the operation.

My final question relates to income and the cost of bank security transfers. I understand they now pay approximately 50% of the cost. Considering the huge profits involved, are they footing the bill? Another source of finance is speeding fines. Is there a huge increase in income to the Garda from the clampdown and on the spot fines?

Mr. Dalton

There is. I will get the figures, but there is a significant increase because of the on the spot fines system, with various categories. Regarding the banks, we have had a look at the cost of escorts for banks and post offices and I provided an account of that last year. I do not have it to hand, but the amounts we charge are well short of the cost. The same issue always arises in these situations. The concern is that if one puts up the charges, they might not pay them. On top of that, we are deemed to be carrying a liability. The State is carrying a liability by effectively assuring the safety of these cash movements. We would prefer if the banks and other institutions saw it as their responsibility to protect their money, as there are significant amounts of money in the system. I expect we would have to revisit these figures.

I would like to separate the post office, which I see as a social service, from the banks, which are commercial activities.

Mr. Dalton

The post office escorts cost more than the banks.

That is a social service for us all. Are we making much profit on the fines?

Mr. Dalton

Can I come back on that? I know there is a figure somewhere on that.

On Vote 19, the supplementary is almost as great as the original. For example, on three expenses the supplementary was £689,000, compared to £697,000 in the original. What is the total supplementary budget for the year 1998? That may be easier than asking them individually.

Mr. Dalton

The trouble is I have too many documents.

Chairman

Perhaps the Comptroller can help.

Mr. Purcell

If it is just on Vote 19, the supplementary was £2.57 million.

Mr. Purcell

For 1998.

Is there any special reason that £2.75 million would be required in a Supplementary Estimate in 1998?

Mr. Dalton

Maybe the best thing to do would be to go through them all one by one.

I do not want to do that.

Mr. Dalton

The supplementary is the sum of the division supplementaries. For example, on salaries the figure is £567,000. We did not offer an explanation because it was less than the 20%. I do not know offhand, but it may relate to pay increases.

The major one is legal aid.

Mr. Dalton

The reason for the legal aid one is that there was a significant increase in fees under the legal aid scheme in the year in question. The reason for that, in turn, was that the Director of Public Prosecutions was having difficulty attracting barristers on the prosecution side. The fees had not been increased for several years and eventually, between the DPP and the Department of Finance, there was agreement, following a lot of negotiation, to increase the fees on the prosecution side. In Paddy Cooney's time as Minister for Justice, there was an agreement under which the defence side was paid on the same basis as the prosecution side and the deal done on the prosecution side carried through to legal aid on the other side, which added a few million pounds to the bill.

There must be some discrepancy in the figure of £2.7 million given by the Comptroller and Auditor General, as obviously the supplementaries, when added up, come to considerably more. The legal aid figure alone is £5 million.

Mr. Purcell

That is a net figure, because some of the supplementaries reduced money that was originally provided in the Estimate.

I note from the correspondence to the Committee that complaints against gardaí from 1990 have increased from 746 to 1,400 in 1998 and presumably will be greater in 1999. That is a 100 % increase in complaints against gardaí. What is the cause of that?

Mr. Dalton

I do not know, and I have asked the Garda Commissioner that question myself. It could be that people have greater grounds for complaint, that they are more aware of the reason to complain. I do not know. It is a trend, though obviously not a welcome one.

Is there any way we can establish why the number of complaints would double?

Mr. Dalton

I can get a report from the Commissioner on it and from the Garda Complaints Board. Perhaps a breakdown of the type of complaint would be helpful. Obviously there is an issue here that needs to be answered.

In relation to asylum seekers, this states that significant new resources are being allocated. Are 120 new people going?

Mr. Dalton

Yes.

What will be the total staff complement then in the Department dealing with asylum seekers?

Mr. Dalton

It will be of the order of 260.

At what stage will that number be arrived at?

Mr. Dalton

We expect to recruit the extra 120 as quickly as the Civil Service Commission can produce them. They are being given priority attention in the State Solicitor's Office because of the numbers arriving. While the number that arrived in January this year was approximately 250, the number arriving now is more than 1,000 a month, which means a real problem is building up again, with more than 6,000 in arrears.

I want to go through that in more detail. The problem of the Civil Service Commission attracting people because of other opportunities in the economy and the attractiveness of State work in general was alluded to at this Committee. Do you foresee any problems in recruiting the extra 120 people?

Mr. Dalton

I understand panels exist in the Civil Service Commission. We will be getting top priority on this because of the nature of the issue and the cost implications of not dealing with the situation more efficiently. The cost at the moment of the inflow of immigrants is in the region of £80 million per year. If we do not address the situation and get it more streamlined, that cost could easily become £160 million. Therefore, there is an imperative to get people in quickly.

As regards the Deputy's question, the last I heard of it two days ago was that the Civil Service Commission has created some panels. We have asked it to prioritise the recruitment of these people. The last time we went for retired people - a lot of people who had left the public service. We may be obliged to go that route again but I do not know at this stage. That is not the intention right now but, depending on how we get on with the recruitment, we may be obliged to take on people on a contract basis, depending on the attitude of the unions.

What will be the job specifications?

Mr. Dalton

A large number of them will be sitting down, spending time talking to incoming people. An interview takes about three hours with interpreters and so on. We schedule about 2,500 to 3,000 interviews a year but we need to do better than that.

Chairman

You would want to if they are coming at a rate of 1,000 per month.

Mr. Dalton

That is right. That was the last scheduling we did and it will have to be speeded up considerably. One also gets a lot of no shows - about one third who do not——

So what of the job specification? The interview——

Mr. Dalton

I do not have a job specification with me but, basically, it is the capacity to interview sympathetically and to take the training provided by the UNHCR. We provide training courses on reception, interviewing and so on. There is a wide range of training. Whatever is necessary to meet people, to hear their story, to sensibly summarise it and to make a recommendation. That is what the job entails.

So it will be someone with a sympathetic approach who is experienced——

Mr. Dalton

Trained.

Well trained. I want to deal with the timescale. Mr. Dalton said as soon as possible but have any of the 120 people been identified as people to whom the job will be offered?

Mr. Dalton

Absolutely not. The sanction for the posts came from the Department of Finance last Friday, I think - I am subject to correction on that. It is new. We went to the Civil Service Commission within the last few days to ask it to get on with it.

Has the Civil Service Commission given a timescale within which it believes it will be able to recruit the 120 people?

Mr. Dalton

I have not been dealing with this myself in the last two days. However, there was a meeting with the Civil Service Commission and the Department of Finance. I do not know whether any of the people with me were at that meeting.

Ms E. Hogan (Assistant Principal, Department of Finance) called and examined.

I met with officials from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to discuss the gradings of the 120 people and how they might be sourced. We agreed that the quickest way to source them was through interdepartmental panels which exist in the Civil Service Commission. The next day the Department discussed with the Civil Service Commission the speed at which it might be able to secure these people. I am not aware of the outcome of those discussions but there are a number of panels in existence for the various grades. The 120 people will be broken down between various grades so they will not all be taken from the one panel. We are optimistic that the vast majority will be secured sooner rather than later.

Would that be within one month, three months or six months?

A number of them would be secured within one month and then two months, three months going on. However, they are getting priority.

Will the grading be clerical officer, executive officer or administrative officer?

From 36 clerical officers to 12 assistant principals - reducing as it goes up the scale.

Mr. Dalton, what are the latest hard figures for the numbers which came and registered last week?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have a figure for last week but it is running at about 200 to 300 per week. Up to 31 October there were 5,497 applications.

That was the information given by the Minister in the Dáil.

Mr. Dalton

The figure for the whole of last year was 4,626. The previous year it was 3,883 so there is a steady rise.

Is there any figure for November?

Mr. Dalton

The last figure we have is for October which was 1,051.

Are there any figures for weeks in November?

Mr. Dalton

There may be but I do not have them. I can get them for the Deputy. It is an escalating figure.

I wanted to see whether that was the case. As a result of the announcements earlier this week, has there been any rattle or shake in the numbers?

Mr. Dalton

No. The numbers increased significantly when, we believe, criminal elements put out a false account of the right to work issue. The right to work as dealt with by the Government meant that everyone who was in the country prior to the 29th——

Sorry. How did the criminal elements put out the right to work? How was that done?

Mr. Dalton

Certainly we believe that the people coming here as a result of that announcement of the right to work believed that the right to work applied to everybody applying for refugees status.

And Mr. Dalton believes that criminal elements put that out. Where did they put it out?

Mr. Dalton

Through the Internet. We are on the Internet now as the place to come to.

If criminal elements put it out on the Internal could they not be identified or located?

Mr. Dalton

I do not think so. It is known all over Europe that this is an organised business run by very powerful people. Our European colleagues tell us that trafficking in human beings is now as profitable as trafficking in drugs. The system is that they find a victim population who are very often in deprived and very poor circumstances but not, necessarily, in a refugee situation - not fleeing torture. They then extract whatever resources they have in return for free passage across boundaries. That is how it works. People come in the backs of trucks or whatever. When they get here there are probably family members at home and the squeeze is put on them to collect some of the welfare of whatever they collect in the streets. It is an organised racket.

The only way to deal with it is to have a quick turnaround system to demonstrate to people that this system does not work. It has hit the whole of Europe and the rest of Europe has had to introduce unpalatable measures which seem to have been necessary. One of the measures being considered at present in the UK is direct provision. I do not think anyone really wants to see a system like that applied to people who are in bad circumstances but there seems to be no other realistic way of trying to address the problem. As I said earlier, it is not humanitarian in any sense to invite people into a situation where there is a severe housing crisis. We have a few thousand places around the country as a result of advertising but the kind of places that have been offered are places that we know for certain will not be available to us in the summer because they are hotels, holiday homes and so on. They will be withdrawn in the summer so what do we do then with the unfortunate people who have no accommodation?

There is a serious problem. It is being presented as a race problem but it is a real, practical problem - what does one do with several thousand people who arrive here and for whom one cannot provide accommodation?

There are options. One can do as was done in other jurisdictions and build ghettos, but nobody wants that. Dublin is saturated now and we are not getting accommodation offers from anybody. The Army barracks option is there and all of these things have to be looked at. That is better than nothing for someone who is fleeing persecution but there is an unpalatable side to all of that also which makes it a difficult problem with which to deal.

We are not going to be able to deal with it all here. I want to refer to the two black people who came in at Dún Laoghaire with wedding invitations and were not allowed to attend a wedding in Carlow even though they were accompanied by white people. A reply was delivered on the Adjournment Debate in the Dáil which attempted to justify the actions of the official at Dún Laoghaire. It is a matter of concern to me and a number of others that the incident actually occurred and that the people were unable to attend the wedding. Does Mr. Dalton see that as an isolated incident which would not normally occur or how does he view it?

Mr. Dalton

I must confess that I did not see the speech; it is not something which came my way. However, the incident obviously points to the extreme difficulties involved in dealing with this situation. We were severely criticised when the Romanian choir was admitted into the country. The problem about exercising border controls is that inevitably one will occasionally pick up wrong cases. We had a case of a man who was stopped on his way from Belfast for similar reasons - it was believed that he was a refugee, although it turned out that he had been born in Belfast. I spoke about the extreme difficulties involved in having policemen or immigration officers overseeing this issue; they will certainly stop the wrong people from time to time. I am not familiar with the circumstances of this case but I am quite certain that is what happened. I would not attempt to defend every decision. We are going to get it wrong again and again if we impose controls. I am sorry this incident occurred.

We are all sorry it occurred. On Vote 19, item a3, Mr. Dalton stated earlier that differences of 20% or more were explained but this Vote does not seem to have an explanation included in the notes. The differential is almost 100%. What caused that?

Mr. Dalton

I will go through the detail. On entertainment, the grant was £35,000 but the expenditure was £65,000.

I am referring to incidental expenses.

Mr. Dalton

Yes.

Is there a particularly significant item?

Mr. Dalton

We had a Supplementary Estimate.

Yes, there was a Supplementary Estimate which was practically equivalent to the original one.

Mr. Dalton

I do not know what the precise arguments for the Supplementary Estimate were but I can outline the component elements of the expenses.

I am more concerned about the reason for the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Dalton

The big expenses seem to relate to uniforms, advertising and publications and miscellaneous items. The initial allocation was £221,000 and the total expenditure was £689,000, which is fully explained in the Supplementary Estimate.

What happened there? Was there a new uniform design or a significant number of new uniforms? Are these new uniforms still in the press?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have that detail but I can obtain it.

Chairman

The Estimate was more than doubled. How did the Department get it so wrong? Officials are here to account for their Departments' expenditure and should have answers to these questions. Does Mr. Dalton know why the figure was doubled?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have the information to hand.

Chairman

That is very bad form when the Secretary General is here today to answer for these accounts. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the Department's accounts is appalling. There is a multitude of notes here, all of them shocking, and Mr. Dalton cannot answer a question which he should be prepared to answer.

Mr. Dalton

I dealt with the other three items, specifically referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General, in the Chairm an's absence. If I have not done so satisfactorily, I will deal with them again now. I acknowledge that I am unable to answer Deputy Ardagh's question on the Supplementary Estimate. I can send someone to find out the information.

The next item relates to the Criminal Assets Bureau. The original Estimate was almost £4 million and the out-turn was something in the region of £2 million. That is a huge differential. Have members of the bureau stopped working or do they only work for six months of the year?

Mr. Dalton

As I understand it, this can be explained by the fact that the bureau has not expanded as quickly as was originally intended. We provided for more staff than were actually recruited.

Obviously, when the original Estimate was drawn up, certain objectives and targets were outlined for the bureau. What were those objectives and how did the reduction in the Estimate affect their attainment?

Mr. Dalton

Our original understanding was that the bureau wanted to reach a certain staffing level. As it progressed, it was decided by members, for their own reasons, that the bureau should not expand so quickly. The bureau has been extremely successful in its activities. We are not aware that they are pressing us for additional staff at this time. We over-provided for that. I understand that the bureau will spend its allocated amount next year. I can outline the bureau's achievements if that is of any assistance.

Yes, I would be very interested to hear what it has achieved this year and whether improvements have been made vis-à-vis last year.

Mr. Dalton

My information relates to the period October 1996 to 31 December 1998. The bureau can make three different types of order - an interim order whereby a person's property can be frozen or where a person is prevented from acting on the property for 21 days; an interlocutory order which holds the property for seven years; and a disposal order. To date, the value of the interim orders was £6 million and 20 interlocutory orders had a total value of £4.5 million. The bureau demanded £19 million in tax and interest from people suspected of involvement in crime and it has stopped almost £1 million in social welfare payments.

Is Mr. Dalton aware whether any big fish have been caught to date?

Mr. Dalton

Yes. I do not have individual figures but I know some big fish were caught. Some people, whose names were published in the newspapers in the context of their being almost beyond control, have now had their assets frozen. Some live outside this jurisdiction and are inclined to stay outside of it. The bureau is working successfully. Some people, whose names are well known, have been hit for quite substantial sums.

I would like Mr. Dalton to ask the Secretary General to pass on our congratulations to the new Garda Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Fachtna Murphy, who set up and ran this department.

He must be from Cork.

I am not just saying it just because he is a Corkman but in recognition of the work he has done. Congratulations should be passed on.

Chairman

I must rule that out or order. If the Deputy was criticising Mr. Murphy I would not allow it so I cannot allow praise either.

In relation to item N, Childcare, there is an increase of £200,000. I am delighted to see that was the cost of the Shanty education project in the Cherry Orchard area of Dublin.

Chairman

Is the Shanty education project not based in Tallaght?

Chairman

There is another project in Cherry Orchard.

What is that provision spent on?

Mr. Dalton

It provides funding for capital grants to the senior level personnel in 25 flagship community based child care projects.

Are there any specifics on where the money went or on what it was spent?

Mr. Dalton

Apart from the Shanty projects, the money is spent throughout the country.

In relation to violence against women, there was a provision of £101,000 but the outturn was £35,000. For an subject which is so important, £35,000 is not much. Is there another Department with responsibility in this matter?

Mr. Dalton

The £101,000 was for an advertising campaign. That was replaced by a public relations exercise which required less funding. Funding for a pilot project for perpetrators of domestic violence was deferred until this year.

Those figures should not be taken as the total expenditure on violence against women. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform only has a co-ordinating role and a number of other Departments are involved. The Garda Síochána is also substantially involved.

Vote 20 deals with the Garda Síochána. Looking at the item related to salaries, travel and incidental expenses, there were very significant increases over the original Estimate. Salaries were 18% higher than the original Estimate of £352 million. The outturn was £410 million. The original figure for travel and subsistence was £14 million and the outturn is £16 million plus an accrual which bumps the figure up to almost £18 million. Is that due to the increase in numbers in the Garda Síochána or were the salaries paid significantly increased?

Mr. Dalton

It was due to the cost of the first phase of the Garda Síochána pay deal under the PCW which was backdated to 1996 and would have involved a significant element of backdated overtime payments.

On average, what percentage of the normal salary did the gardaí get as a result of that pay deal in 1998?

Mr. Dalton

I will get that figure for the Committee.

What was the percentage increase in Garda pay in 1999? Was it similar to the rate of increases in 1998?

Mr. Dalton

I can give figures for basic pay and for average pay for the gardaí in 1998 and 1999. I have figures for the average earnings of a member of the Garda Síochána on 1 January 1997, 1 July 1998 and November 1999. This would take account of the period previous to the first 9% the force was granted, the period post that and the recent adjudication award.

Chairman

Do these figures include pay and overtime and allowances?

Mr. Dalton

Yes. The average on 1 January 1997 was £26,924, on 1 July 1998 it was £28,639 and the figure for post-Partnership 2000 is £32,641.

Is that the figure for 1 November 1999?

Mr. Dalton

It is the figure for the period following Partnership 2000. I also have figures which deal with maximum earnings, if such figures are of interest. The five top earners were a member of the Garda Special Branch who earned £68,034——

I presume that is a driver.

Mr. Dalton

No, he is a Special Branch detective. A garda based at Dublin Airport earned £65,000; a garda from Pearse Street who is based at the National Museum earned £65,000 while another garda at Dublin Airport received almost £63,000.

Could we hear more about the garda on the National Museum in Kildare Street?

Mr. Dalton

I should not have mentioned that because it identifies an individual.

That is all right, I will drop it.

Mr. Dalton

I will not identify not him but he is in a static post. Another garda in the Special Branch was paid £61,000. Those are the top five earners. I have the same figures for prison officers if they are of use.

Chairman

Yes, we would like to hear those figures.

Mr. Dalton

These figures are for slightly different dates. In the period before the special pay increase in 1996 for prison officers, with overtime and allowances added in, the salary was £28,601. It is now £38,116.

Chairman

That is the average?

Mr. Dalton

Yes, including overtime and allowances. The top five earners are all prison officers based in Mountjoy - one is a trades officer, the top earner received £75,500; the next received £73,700, the next £72,500, the trades officer earned almost £72,000 and one prison officer earned £69,000.

What is the average in Mountjoy Prison?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have an average for Mountjoy but it would be high. I can get that figure for the committee.

Chairman

What is the basic pay for a garda and for a prison officer?

Mr. Dalton

The current average rate of basic pay for a prison officer is £19,489. The average basic pay for a garda is £22,689.

Thank you, Mr. Dalton.

Chairman

We will not finish on this testimony today because I am very disappointed with this report, Secretary General. I am alarmed at some of the notes from the Comptroller and Auditor General and I am very concerned that any papers are being withheld from the Comptroller and Auditor General, even on legal advice. This committee cannot accept that situation. I ask you to consider that. In the past there have been celebrated cases of attempts to withhold papers from the Comptroller and Auditor General on security grounds and that was dealt with at the time. If necessary, the committee will get legal advice as to the appropriateness of that.

Before I sum up on the issues, we had recently a report from the Central Statistics Office on crime which is greatly at variance with the Garda crime statistics. Would you like to comment on the serious divergence between those two sets of figures?

Mr. Dalton

The divergence is not serious by international comparisons. In fact the Garda figures are much closer to the independent survey than would be the case in other jurisdictions. The CSO survey suggests that there is a certain level of under-reporting of crime, that people are not reporting minor crimes. This is a common international experience and is not as pronounced here as elsewhere. It does not impact at all on the overall crime figures because what is true now would have been true five years ago. There is no reason to believe that under-reporting is different from what it was then. The CSO warns us to treat and interpret their figures with extreme caution. In one case people report a crime to the Garda and it is put on record. In the other people make it known in the household survey that they have been the victims of crime. This is the first time we have had a report of CSO figures on crime. We will need two or three of them before we make an assessment of what is really happening.

Chairman

That is a valid point. How is the training of the RUC trainees who are going to Kosovo proceeding in Templemore?

Mr. Dalton

Very well. They have finished their training and have gone off.

Chairman

Exactly what did they train in and for how long?

Mr. Dalton

The emphasis was on human rights training. The Garda have built up a substantial reputation internationally for participation in missions of this kind. The RUC were participating for the first time. They turned to the Garda and this was a welcome development. We saw this as a sort of pre-sample of Patten and the future. The training was arranged between the Garda Commissioner and the RUC. They came to us and were trained. It all went very well.

Chairman

How long were they in Templemore?

Mr. Dalton

The UN course is fairly short. It lasts about two weeks. There is an emphasis on the practical side and there is a human rights element.

Chairman

Do you see this as a precursor of further co-operation between the two forces?

Mr. Dalton

I would think so.

Chairman

Do you foresee gardaí going to the North for training?

Mr. Dalton

Yes, we would. The Garda training college is seen as one of the leading institutions of its kind in Europe. There is always traffic into the college from all over Europe but we would certainly foresee movement in the other direction as well. There is much to be learned from the RUC as well as from the Garda.

Chairman

Is there scope for more than just training co-operation? Do you foresee, in practice, RUC trainees on the streets in Dublin or vice versa in Belfast?

Mr. Dalton

That is a little bit in the future, Chairman. A lot would depend on the state of the political mood and the public attitude. Powers would have to be adjusted because an RUC officer would not have any police powers in this jurisdiction, for example. Legal adjustments would be required. There will have to be substantial co-operation, quite apart from the areas in which there has been co-operation all along. Because of the Border there will be co-operation on drugs, the illegal movement of people and in many other areas.

Chairman

What happens to fines paid in court?

Mr. Dalton

They go to the central Exchequer.

Chairman

Do we have a figure for the total amount of fines paid into the Exchequer last year and the percentage of the total fines imposed that figure represents? I know the Comptroller and Auditor General is doing a more detailed study of the payment of fines. I would like to get an illustration.

While you are looking for the figures I will go back to something that has already been said at the committee. There are legal disputes going on in the Irish Council of People with Disabilities.

Mr. Dalton

There are, Chairman. I mentioned earlier that I expect to be in a position to supply the internal audit report quickly because I think that matter has been resolved. I accept it is a report the committee needs to see and I believe the committee will ask me questions about it when they see it.

Chairman

It sounds like a shambles but I will say no more about it for the moment.

On prisons, I see you are the director general of the Prison Service. What is the basis of the report of prison officers being paid overtime in empty prisons?

May I answer that question? When a new prison is commissioned we bring people in to put in locks. This is done separately by the prison service so that no contractor or anyone outside the prison system knows what lock is on what door.

Chairman

This is done for security reasons.

It is done for good security reasons. When contactors are finishing, a job searching goes on throughout the prison and contractors are accompanied in and out of areas that have been secured and cleared. We have particular difficulties, which it may not be appropriate to go into here, with snagging and with major problems which arose in the work of sub-contractors in Clover Hill Prison. These necessitated bringing in officers from the prison next door on overtime to carry out work such as searching and accompanying tradesmen who should have been finished their work at that stage. The bulk of the officers who are assigned to Clover Hill and who are coming into the prison in stages are coming from probation and training in Mountjoy Prison because the new prison is taking over the role of Mountjoy Prison. These officers were not ready to take on the task. There were overtime costs but they were generated for a good reason. This is a non-recurring cost especially associated with the setting up of a new prison where hundreds of young officers have been recruited to take over the custodial role in the prison. I am happy to report that we have started to put prisonersinto that prison. This is how prisons are commissioned around the world. The numbers are built up gradually so that security is not imperilled by some sudden development. We are well on the way in the prison and the costs are not recurring.

Chairman

Are all the snags overcome now?

One snag is still in the process of being fixed. The proprietary floor covering that was applied initially turned out to be completely defective. At the supplier's own cost it is being reinstated throughout the prison. I saw it before and after and the difference is dramatic. It takes time to lay the covering properly and we are taking nothing on trust. You see the cases being reviewed by the committee today about people slipping on floors and we did not accept the sub-standard covering which was slippy. We could not put prisoners and prison officers working on it. It was not acceptable.

Chairman

At what point was it checked? Was it all left to be checked after it was laid or was no check done?

It was checked as it was laid but an interesting phenomenon kicked in. I am not a technical expert but I can tell you that the impact of dust from other work going on in the prison caused a chemical reaction in this which took a certain time to evolve. In other words, when it was laid it looked perfect, it felt perfect and it was perfect, but as dust came from other workings on it and blew in and out of the prison, some chemical reaction occurred. It was faulty material but this was not apparent at the time the prison was handed over. It became apparent later and the contractors were recalled to deal with it.

Chairman

Had this material never been used anywhere else in any other prison, hospital or public area?

I am not qualified to say that because I was not involved in the commissioning of the prison. I took over in July. I understand it was a reputable contractor, a very large contractor who subcontracted this work. I can only say that I saw with my own eyes what was there and it was hugely unsatisfactory, but it is being put right now.

Chairman

How many prison places are there in Clover Hill, which is in the same complex as Wheatfield Prison?

It is larger. There are 400 places.

Chairman

How places are there in Wheatfield Prison?

Mr. Dalton

Three hundred and sixty.

It was built for 320 but we are holding an extra 40. We have doubled up some of the cells in Wheatfield.

Chairman

Mr. Dalton, you wished to give a statistic.

Mr. Dalton

As I said earlier, Chairman, the trouble with having too many figures is finding them. Fines go in two directions. Some come into the Department in appropriations-in-aid and others go directly to the Exchequer. We estimated the sum for fines would be £1.052 million and it came in at £1.858 million.

Chairman

The estimated figure for fines was £1.052 million and you got——

Mr. Dalton

We got £1.858 million.

Chairman

Do they run into the Department?

Mr. Dalton

Yes, as an appropriation-in-aid. The Road Act penalties were estimated at £5 million and they came in at almost £6.142 million.

Chairman

Do they also come into the Department?

Mr. Dalton

No, they go into the Exchequer.

Chairman

Straight to the Exchequer?

Mr. Dalton

Yes.

Chairman

Are there any statistics on the amount of fines imposed by the courts and therefore the percentages which have been collected?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have that but I can get that for you, Chairman. I will get it to you before the next time.

Chairman

I would be grateful if you would do so. Regarding prisons, will the gross overcrowding in Mountjoy Prison be relieved now that Clover Hill Prison is open?

It will, based on current committal trends but one always has to say there could be dramatic developments. We work with what the courts send us, what pulls up in the van from the courts, but the plan is to switch all the remands that currently go to Mountjoy Prison to Clover Hill Prison.

Chairman

So Clover Hill will be the remand prison?

It will be the major remand prison for the State. For their local catchment areas, Cork Prison, Limerick Prison and Castlereagh Prison serve as remand centres for their regions but they would be much smaller operations.

Chairman

I visited Mountjoy Prison when I was the Minister and people talked then about overcrowding. By any standards it was overcrowded, but I heard the Governor of Mountjoy Prison on the radio recently saying numbers that I could not believe regarding the number of people in the jail. It is holding more than twice the number for which it was designed. Is that the case?

When people talk about this, they need to bear in mind that we created some additional accommodation there since the Chairman was the Minister. For instance, we created a medical unit there that holds about 60 people. We also refurbished the B base there and created more accommodation, but it is still a grossly overcrowded prison.

Chairman

How many places are there now? On the campus in Mountjoy, there is the men's prison, the women's prison, the training unit and St. Patrick's juvenile centre. What is the total number of places in each and how many prisoners are there now?

I cannot give the Chairman the figures immediately, but I will try to get them before the end of the meeting. However, I would say that there would be about 1,000 people in custody in that complex between the training unit, St. Patrick's, the women's prison and Mountjoy Prison itself. Mountjoy Prison itself can hold - I am not saying appropriately hold - about 700 of those.

Chairman

How many cells are there?

I will give the Chairman the exact number of cells but it is misleading because we have double cells, treble cells and large holding areas.

Chairman

I know there are double cells and that is my next question. How many double, treble and single cells are there and how many people are in them?

Mr. Dalton

We do not have all that information, Chairman, but we will get it for you. Many of the cells in Mountjoy Prison were designed as single cells but they are carrying double. Mountjoy Prison is grossly overcrowded and we would not pretend otherwise.

Chairman

Yes, and there are social, health and other costs, perhaps even of life, deriving at least in part from that overcrowding.

Mr. Dalton

The only good thing, Chairman, is that it is on the way to being resolved at last because the extra places that have come on stream in Clover Hill Prison and Castlereagh Prison and will come on stream in the new prison in the Curragh in the midlands. Between those, the plan is to effectively gut Mountjoy Prison and put in sanitation. There is a plan over a few years to get it back to about 400 or 500 people. That is what it is designed for.

Chairman

I know, but when are we likely to get there? When will we stop reading about the appalling conditions for prisoners in Mountjoy Prison?

Mr. Dalton

I think it will begin to happen before we appear here with next year's accounts. I am not saying before we finish with this year's accounts, but next year's accounts.

Chairman

There is progress any way. Have you managed to get any figures?

I do not have them with me, but I should have them in approximately 15 minutes.

Chairman

We will have to resume the discussion on this subject and perhaps you could have some type of statistical picture including the costs involved for the next time it is discussed in a month or two. What is the position regarding prison officers' absentee rates, etc? Has there been any improvement?

Mr. Dalton

It has improved. We have taken action against them. It is still high, about 17.5 days on average per annum. It is still above general Civil Service levels but we have brought it down by means of a fairly tight policy of warning people and so on. A total of 86 people were denied special leave with pay last year, four people were dismissed and six more are on the road in that direction. The number of sick days probably is not a meaningful thing because the number of prison officers change, but it has improved. One of the problems with discipline is that the overtime payments are so good that being denied sick leave with pay is not necessarily fatal to the household budget.

We are trying to deal with it by means of discipline and we have been intensifying that in recent years. It is not just all stick; there is a lot of carrot as well in that nowadays if one is missing from Mountjoy Prison for a day or two, somebody tries to find out why one is missing. We have welfare systems and so on there to help people who have alcohol problems, etc.

Chairman

I am conscious of the fact that a prison officer's job is very tense. I remember when I was the Minister and somebody retired. He had gone through a life sentence because of the pressure. He was inside all his life. One of the points that concern me is that there are no outlets. Have any promotional outlets from the Prison Service been created for prison officers?

Mr. Dalton

The Chairman asked me this before and the answer is no. They stand the same chance as everybody else. They are able to retire earlier than others.

Chairman

Is it the same as the gardaí?

Mr. Dalton

It is the same as the gardaí, yes.

Chairman

Thirty years service.

Mr. Dalton

Yes, and 50 years of age. I agree with the Chairman. The people who serve the longest time in jail are prison officers. It is a difficult job.

Chairman

It is a job which is tense every day.

Mr. Dalton

It is, yes.

Mr. Purcell

In case there was any misunderstanding about the status of my request for sight of that audit report, I do not refer to that in my report as a criticism. I can understand the difficulty the Accounting Officer might have if he has received legal advice to that extent. It was not central to what was being reported. He indicated to me there was prima facie evidence in that report to suggest there was some misappropriation of public funds. I did not push him on that at all. Perhaps he might like to clarify if it can be formally released to me. It may have been the case that if I had pushed him or requested for an private, informal look at it - which happens from time to time in matters of security and so on - the file would have been provided to me. It was not a criticism.

Chairman

I accept that. However, it is a criticism from me because this Committee cannot accept that any files pertinent to the public finances can be excluded from its consideration. There have been celebrated cases in the past where that principle was accepted in every case. Files cannot be withheld on that basis. If they are sensitive, they will be treated sensitively. That is my own view.

Mr. Dalton

I have no difficulty with that. I find it difficult to imagine that I will be told I cannot show the report to you or the Comptroller. This is a public forum - that is the difference.

Chairman

These matters can be handled appropriately. I am concerned about the Comptroller and Auditor General's reports on the Department this year. You are one of the ablest - and I say that without flattery - of the accounting officers who regularly appear before us, which is why I am all the more concerned about this. We will resume on this.

We will look at the prisons problems with the Office of Public Works Vote on 21 December. Perhaps we will look at those statistics again. Will we be able to deal with this rest of this on that day? Will the council on disabilities issue be resolved by then?

Mr. Dalton

I doubt it. I was about to make a humble suggestion in that regard. Justice is probably one of the few areas with five separate Votes. An enormous volume of statistical information is buried in these tomes in front of me. It is very hard to remember it all. I know you cannot anticipate all the questions, but it would be very helpful to me if the Comptroller and Auditor General could indicate in advance if large amounts of statistical information will be required because I could then provide all the statistics. It is almost impossible to anticipate every question. However, there are millions of statistics in these five fairly large Votes. It would be helpful if I had some advance idea of what would be required.

Chairman

Do you think we do not understand that? Yours is only one of the Departments we have to look at. We have a nose for figures.

Mr. Dalton

I know, but I do not like coming to the Committee without information that might seem obvious to those standing back from it.

Chairman

In regard to the question asked by Deputy Ardagh on the variation, there is an explanation for variations later on but not for the one in A.3. Perhaps we could get an explanation for the substantial difference in A.3.

Mr. Dalton

I have here a selection of the contributory costs which led to the requirement for the supplementary. The National Crime Forum required a supplementary of £0.25 million. There were also advertising costs of £100,000, a project management fee - I do not know which project - of £25,000, legal costs of £46,000 and printing costs for the Department's annual report and general requests came to £30,000. We can give a more detailed breakdown of that.

Chairman

That is fine. Is this your last year accounting for the Courts Vote?

Mr. Dalton

Yes, thank God.

Chairman

Are you satisfied you are handing over to Mr. Fitzpatrick a fully efficient, effective courts service?

Mr. Dalton

I am satisfied I am handing over to a fully efficient and effective Mr. Fitzpatrick. I hope we will be parting company with Seán Aylward as well.

Chairman

You will be glad to divest yourself of all that. We are going to resume on 21 December on the prisons Vote. We will deal with the other issues, which I hope will be resolved, on Thursday, 3 February. We will meet again next Thursday, when we will deal with the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on year 2000 compliance and the problems we will have on 31 December and 1 January.

The Committee adjourned at 12.55 p.m. until Thursday, 9 December 1999.
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