I welcome Mr. Luke Murtagh, chief executive officer, County Tipperary (North Riding) Vocational Education Committee. Will you, please, introduce your officials?
County Tipperary (North Riding) Vocational Education Committee: Financial Statements 1994 and 1995.
Mr. L. Murtagh (Chief Executive Officer, County Tipperary (North Riding) Vocational Education Committee) called and examined.
Mr. Murtagh
I am accompanied by Ms Antoinette Coffey, adult education organiser; Ms Margaret Brophey, senior staff officer, and Mr. Antóin Mac Cionnaith, chairman, County Tipperary (North Riding) Vocational Education Committee.
I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce the report.
Mr. Purcell
The 1994 and 1995 annual accounts of the VEC are before the committee. In regard to the 1994 accounts I prepared a report which draws attention to the absence of the transactions of two wholly owned companies and four controlled funds. In recent years the VEC sector has been notable for its capacity for developing services to meet the diverse needs of those who do not follow the traditional route to third level institutions or directly to employment. There have been a number of laudable innovations. Post-leaving certificate courses and adult literacy initiatives come immediately to mind but there have been others.
The legislative framework for vocational education committees dates back to 1930 and it is often difficult to meet the new challenges within the legal restrictions imposed. To a large extent, the subject matter of my report has to be read in that context. Here you had a situation where the VEC had recourse to finding new sources of finance for capital purposes to support the development of adult literacy and VTOS services in the case of the one of the companies and to provide services in information and communications technology and community education in the case of the second company. There is also the matter of the four funds which were outside the scope of the VEC accounts, three of which have since been incorporated. The fourth is no longer within the remit of the VEC. That aspect of the problem has, therefore, been addressed.
There are a few general points that I would like to make. I do not want to be pedantic but since March 1992 the establishment by any State body of subsidiaries is subject to the approval of the relevant Minister and the Minister for Finance. While it can be argued that the two companies set up by the VEC are not, strictly speaking, subsidiaries, the legal basis for a VEC in setting up a limited liability company might be open to question. The operations of the two companies are interlinked with the activities of the VEC and this has governance implications which have to be addressed. Moreover, one of the companies was used as a means of borrowing in a situation where the Department was not willing to give the go-ahead to the VEC to purchase property. As it happened, this turned out to be a good move on the part of the VEC from a purely commercial point of view given the steep rise in property prices but the dangers of going outside the established public sector norms for funding capital expenditure must be borne in mind. The other side must be looked at. If things go wrong, the Exchequer usually ends up footing the bill.
All these complications, together with the heavy involvement of the VEC in the establishment of the new Tipperary Rural and Business Development Institute in the interim, have caused some problems for me in clearing the accounts for audit certification. There has been substantial correspondence between my office and the VEC and the Department in order to obtain greater clarity about some of these arrangements. The clarification of responsibilities and associated accountabilities are important elements in devising a satisfactory governance framework for the operations of the VEC and its related activities. There is, therefore, a more general problem that would not be specific to County Tipperary (North Riding) Vocational Education Committee. The Committee may wish to consider its wider implications for the VEC sector generally and the role of the Department in interacting with that situation.
That is a valid point to which we will return. Mr. Murtagh, where are the reports for 1996, 1997 and 1998?
Mr. Murtagh
They are still being considered by the Comptroller and Auditor General. They are, as he said, the subject of correspondence.
On the general point made by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. McNamara, is the question of the need to update the legislation being considered by the Department?
Mr. McNamara
Yes. The situation is that the 1930 Act is being amended and updated. It is with the parliamentary draftsman. The financial and accounting arrangements are among the issues being dealt with. I do not have any more specific information however in relation to what is in the draft.
I presume you will seek the views of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the auditing and financial aspects.
Mr. McNamara
I am not directly involved with the legislation but I have noted your comments and will bring them back to the Department.
In the particular circumstances and given the Comptroller and Auditor General's comments, it would be prudent, wise and sensible to seek his views on what changes may be necessary.
I welcome Mr. Murtagh. Will you outline the background to the setting up of these companies? Were you aware at the time that you had to seek the approval of the Department before setting up subsidiaries and taking out a loan?
Mr. Murtagh
In the case of the company in Nenagh, Teach an Léinn, Ionad Forbartha Oideachais Teoranta agus Gnó, that arose, as the Comptroller and Auditor General said, in the context of making provision for VTOS and adult literacy in particular. At the time in 1991 we were initiating VTOS and adult literacy programmes, which were located within the VEC head office. This was not feasible or practical. I sought to rent accommodation in Nenagh and approached a number of auctioneers on the matter. I was having difficulty in finding a premises to rent. Oneof the auctioneers indicated that a building was available in the town and was for sale. The committee was of the view that this would be a good solution to the problem.
I made contact with the Department of Education on the matter. I had an initial meeting with it at which it indicated that there was no capital money available for development in that area. That is still the case as far as I know. I subsequently wrote to the Department of Education on the matter looking for specific approval but I did not get a response. I then went ahead and purchased the property. I established limited companies. I was not conscious of the fact that there was a need at that time to get the approval of the Department to establish limited companies.
You say you did not get a response from the Department. How long did you wait? When did you actually write to the Department? Given that you actually had a meeting with them and they were aware of your difficulties, were there no telephone conversations? Could you not have picked up the telephone before you went ahead and took the decision to purchase the property?
Mr. Murtagh
Yes, I could have picked up the telephone. There is no point saying I could not have done so, yes I could. As I said, I had a meeting with the Department and they made it very clear that there was no capital money available. I then wrote to the Department. I was under pressure from the person who was selling the property to make a decision there and then. I felt that the strategy of securing a mortgage and funding the mortgage out of renting the property was a reasonable and fair way to proceed. What I was trying to do was to provide for the students who had a definite need in a proper way. I think the facilities under which they were operating were not satisfactory. It was important as the Government at that time and since has put a significant emphasis on making provision for people who need a second chance in the education system. I felt it was very important that we should make proper provision for them.
Not alone did we develop the premises for that reason, we also included in the premises an art gallery and facilities where the premises would be used by business people and others in the community so that the provision was a broadly based provision and that the students involved would not be ghettoised. They would be just the same as anyone else walking into the building getting their education. It has worked out very well and very successfully.
I do not doubt, first of all, your goodwill in relation to wanting to provide places for people on VTOS programmes.
Mr. Murtagh
Thank you.
Nor do I question, maybe, the commercial decision itself. However, from the committee's point of view, what we are concerned about are the procedures. Did you know the correct procedure and why was it not followed in this case? As the Chairman and the C & AG have already highlighted, if it is broken in one case, and we are lucky it works out well, and if that continues to be the case in other areas it just might work out unfavourably for the Department. I am just trying to find out whether a sufficient effort was made to get the approval of the Department in this case before going ahead and doing what was probably a very good thing for people who need it.
Mr. Murtagh
Reflecting on the comments made by the Comptroller and Auditor General, it is and has been a fairly grey and vague area. One of the outcomes of this process is that the issues are being clarified for me and, ultimately, will be clarified for everybody else within the overall system. I suppose in hindsight I could have made a better effort. I regret that we are now in the situation we are in in terms of procedure and I am happy that the outcome has been positive from the point of view of the students and from a commercial point of view.
May I ask the Department, Mr. McNamara, if this type of thing has arisen in other vocational education committees? Is Mr. Murtagh's assumption or lack of knowledge about the procedure in this area reasonable or has this happened around the country with many others?
Mr. McNamara
I will ask my colleague, Mr. Kelly, to answer that.
Mr. Kelly
It is fair to say that, at the time in question, in the lead up to 1994 and when the C & AG took over the audits of the vocational education committees, there were weaknesses in practices in certain vocational education committees. Arising from the audits which took place, greater clarity and transparency of the practice on the ground became available to the Department. The Department, in collaboration with the VEC sector, through the IVA and with the C & AG, is seeking to improve the reporting and accounting standards and, within that, to revise the accounts in such a way that all the programmes and activities undertaken by vocational education committees would be reflected in the accounts of vocational education committees.
Has a similar situation arisen elsewhere?
Mr. Kelly
I cannot answer that definitively. To my knowledge I am not aware of subsidiary companies being created in this way. However, I might add that we would be aware that, in certain instances, there might have been cost centres within the VEC or in vocational education committees where the balances on their accounts would not have been reflected in the accounting statement for that VEC for the particular year. The steps being taken to revise the accounts and to update the accounting standards within the VEC sector would be in order to ensure that all activities of vocational education committees are reflected in those accounts.
May I ask Mr. Murtagh why the VEC could not have bought the property in its own right? Why was there a need to set up the company in the first place?
Mr. Murtagh
Because we had to finance the capital cost of the property and there was no possibility of getting direct capital from the Department. The methodology we used was to operate the building as a business and, through the business, to generate activity to fund the repayment of the capital cost. We did not do this in a flippant way but in a very careful and staged way and we developed the property over three stages. At the end of each stage, before we proceeded to take out the next mortgage and develop it further, we reviewed what had happened. We looked at our capacity to earn enough income and then we looked at our capacity for the next stage to earn income.
I would like to make a comment in relation to why this may not have happened in other vocational education committees or why it was particular to North Tipperary. I think County Tipperary (North Riding) VEC has a very strong reputation in the area of curriculum development and innovation generally. I suppose when you get involved in innovation you come up against these sorts of difficulties and problems. I would welcome the situation where future matters in terms of reporting and so on are clarified. I would be very happy with that.
When you say "we decided" were these matters put to the committee?
Mr. McKenna
At the time that this was being developed I happened to be chairperson of the adult education committee of County Tipperary (North Riding) VEC and we saw the very great need at that time for, as the chief executive officer outlined earlier, for some space because we were innovative and we were developing all these particular projects. At all times the chief executive officer came to my committee detailing exactly what was being proposed and we saw it as an absolutely excellent idea. Our whole concern at all times was to ensure that people who were in need of adult and further education, VTOS and all those schemes, would be able to get those particular facilities and that they would be provided. At this particular time we saw that as the only opportunity we had to ensure this and we saw the proposal as an absolutely excellent proposal. In actual fact, I happened to be a director of the initial one at that particular time. At all times my committee was aware of exactly what was going on and it was discussed at length.
And minuted?
Mr. McKenna
And minuted every time.
Is it in the minutes?
Mr. McKenna
Yes.
That is what I wanted to find out. I want to come back to that in a second but were any guarantees given? What would have happened if this business had collapsed or gone wrong? Was there a guarantee given by the VEC? Was there a potential liability?
Mr. Murtagh
If the business went wallop then the property would be sold. The property was in the centre of Nenagh and was a valuable property as such. If the business went wallop then the property would be sold and the proceeds would be used to write off the debts.
If it ended up in a negative situation in which you did not have enough proceeds to right off the debts, would it then have been the liability of the VEC?
Mr. Murtagh
If we had arrived in that situation, it would have been sold but we were very careful all along, in terms of the borrowings and in terms of the activities that were going on, to ensure that if we reached that doomsday situation, then that there would be enough money to meet the liabilities. It is a property in the centre of town and it is quite valuable.
Mr. McKenna stated that this was in the minutes at all times. Is that correct?
Mr. Murtagh
Yes.
The Department gets these minutes on a regular basis. Did the Department read the minutes?
Mr. McNamara
Yes. The minutes would normally be read.
Was the Department, therefore, aware through the minutes?
Mr. McNamara
I cannot answer that. I would need to have that checked again.
We have experienced this before with other vocational education committees where things are recorded in the minutes, the minutes are sent to the Department, the VEC assumes the Department is aware and, in the absence of any action by the Department, the VEC presumes it is all right. What happened the last time in the case of County Longford VEC is that the Department pleaded that it received the minutes but it did not read them. Is this a case of déjà vu?
Mr. McNamara
I would need to have the minutes checked again. Generally, the Department would read the minutes but I would not be able to say that it occurs on absolutely all occasions. It would be incorrect of me to say that to you.
Mr. O’Loughlin
If I may add to that, Chairman, I deal with the adult education section with that aspect of vocational education committees' work. Mr. McNamara deals with general financing and general procedures of vocational education committees. In the file in front of me there is a minute of February 1994 which would indicate that the minutes were indeed read. It was noted in the Department what the VEC was doing and there is no indication minuted of any intention to do anything about it at that stage. The next thing on the file then is the correspondence from the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Therefore, the Department was aware and did nothing about it.
Mr. O’Loughlin
Yes. I was not there in 1994, but I know the case quite well and I would imagine that the Department's reasoning, while it is not documented, would have been that its primary responsibility would have been to provide adult education, that then, as now, capital grants were not available for adult education and that the points made by Mr. Murtagh were accepted by the Department, that this was the only means by which people in Tipperary North Riding who were in need of adult education could be enabled to get it.
Is it true that the Department was not formally asked for sanction to establish this company and it should have been?
Mr. O’Loughlin
Yes. We got in-house legal advice on it, which was, that there is no provision in the Vocational Education Acts which specifically allows vocational education committees to set up limited liability companies.
When did the Department get that advice?
Mr. O’Loughlin
In 1996.
Was any action taken as a result of that?
Mr. O’Loughlin
Not directly, no, apart from the general correspondence which we had with the VEC as a result of the Comptroller and Auditor General's inquiries.
Therefore, the Department is guilty of omission at least. It had legal advice that the VEC was acting ultra vires.
Mr. O’Loughlin
It was probably acting ultra vires, yes. As I said, it is not empowered to set up a company. It is not prohibited either but from the general tenor of the Act it would probably be acting ultra vires in doing this, and we did do that, yes. I should add that this was a long time after the company had been set up.
I would share the sentiments expressed by Deputy Cooper-Flynn, if I read her correctly, that this committee would be slow to jump on innovation and people showing imagination and creativity to meet a need, but at the same time this committee must make sure that there are proper safeguards and procedures without them being excessively bureaucratic. That is the concern of this committee.
Since the vocational education committees have come under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General and, therefore, this committee, things have been checked which were not checked previously and have come to light which had not come to light previously. However, it is a little disconcerting that five years later there are still problems coming to light. Admittedly this problem is one from the past.
On the planned legislation, will the Department look at the powers of delegation, financial controls, audit, etc.?
Department Official
Yes.
Like other members of the committee, I would encourage innovation when it comes to replacing rental liabilities with permanent premises because it is always better value in the long run. However, like the other members, I am a little concerned about the procedure. I am aware of the proposed changes to protect both the Department of Education and Science and the vocational education committees or other similar such bodies. Was an annual rent payable on the premises involved and is it still payable?
Mr. Murtagh
Yes.
Has the rent increased in line with market changes in the meantime?
Mr. Murtagh
The rents were increased in 1997 but have not been increased since.
If it is a wholly owned company, surely the quicker the rents are increased in order to realise the liquidation of the debt or the mortgage, the better.
Mr. Murtagh
There are a couple of points to be made. The VEC must have regard to the budget which is allocated to the VTOS and the adult literacy programme, and I think everybody would agree that there should be a generous approach to rents for VTOS and adult literacy.
In the case of the other activities which are going on in the centre, one must have regard to the market rent in the town. There is a fair amount of rented accommodation available in Nenagh now. Part of the income of Teach an Léinn relates to the provision of coursesand programmes, and of course the chargesfor those courses and programmes have increased.
The rent was increased for about three years - up until 1997 - and it has not increased since then.
Mr. Murtagh
It has not increased since 1997.
Would I be correct in stating that it would be regarded commercially as questionable that anybody in the business would freeze the rent at 1997 prices?
Mr. Murtagh
I think so, yes. We have in the past couple of months looked at reviewing the rents for Teach an Léinn but we have not made a decision on it. Naturally, we must have regard to the market rates in the town.
I would assume the commercial rents would have increased in any event since 1997.
Mr. Murtagh
Possibly, but there is a fair amount of rented accommodation available in Nenagh at present.
Have rents decreased in Nenagh?
Mr. Murtagh
No, they have not.
Given that an increase in rent was necessary for the previous three years on the basis of competing factors, I would conclude that an increase in rent would be due in the subsequent three years.
Mr. Murtagh
For the purposes of clarification, what I said was that the rent was increased once since the operation started, that is, in 1997, and it has not been increased since. I indicated to the Deputy that we are now reviewing the rents.
Does the VEC pay rent for part of the premises to the company?
Mr. Murtagh
Yes, and other interests pay rents also.
To the company?
Mr. Murtagh
Yes.
Other outside bodies?
Mr. Murtagh
Yes.
The point I come back to again is that the company has a mortgage, which is underwritten to some extent by the VEC. The quicker that is discharged, the revenue——
Mr. Murtagh
I agree totally.
What about the other bodies to whom the premises are rented? Have they had an increase in rent since 1997?
Mr. Murtagh
Not since 1997, but we are reviewing the rents currently.
I would be a bit uneasy about that. The system for reviewing the rents is not adequate and needs to be looked at again.
Mr. McKenna
In response to Deputy Durkan, one must recognise that we are in the business of providing an educational facility. We are an educational body and we are concerned to ensure the premises will pay its way. We are not trying to make a huge profit at all costs. Our basic aim is to provide an educational facility. All the occupiers of the facility are people who are involved in education. I do not think it is fair to compare this with a commercial body such as a manufacturing industry or a service industry. We cater for a substantial group of people who are getting a very important opportunity to get involved in a number of educational facilities.
We must take cognisance of the market we are looking after in terms of who our clients are. It must be borne in mind that we are in the business of providing educational facilities to a variety of people who see the potential and the facilities we are offering as being very attractive in terms of the education being received by a variety of different bodies. It is unfair to look at this in a totally commercial sense. We are happy to provide educational facilities which cover our costs and expenses. We do not seek to double the rents because of the commercial market which exists. That is not what we are about; we are about providing a facility which will pay its way in terms of the repayment of the mortgage and other overheads. I think we are doing a very good job in this regard.
I accept that and I accept you are not in the business of commercial venturing. However, the Comptroller and Auditor General is a little uneasy about it and he devoted considerable time to this. He said that in this particular situation it worked out right. He was implying that if it did not work out right, we could have a different situation. If you had negative equity, there could be a different situation. Hence my question. Given that there was not statutory provision for a departure into the commercial area and that it took the decision to set up a wholly owned company - it was not a limited liability or anything like that; the VEC is ultimately the underwriter for it - having set it up, it moved into the commercial area. It is essential, therefore, that commercial factors prevail in that particular operation because if they do not, the liability on the VEC could be very considerable.
I presume the premises when fitted out complied with fire and other regulations?
Mr. Murtagh
Yes.
In every respect?
Mr. Murtagh
Yes.
And fire certificates etc. were sought and got?
Mr. Murtagh
We employed architects and went through the proper processes.
The current condition of the premises has stood up to——
Mr. Murtagh
It is top class. The people of Nenagh are proud of the building. It is the original market house in the town and it was an eyesore.
I am aware of it. I have a photograph of it.
Mr. McKenna
It is important——
How many students are accommodated under the VEC's various programmes of education on an annual basis?
Mr. Murtagh
Currently we are talking about approximately 1,400 adults on average. The overall average enrolment in the VEC from 1994 for full-time students is approximately 2,500 on average.
When do you expect the property to be a freehold again?
Mr. Murtagh
It is expected it will be totally a freehold in 2011. Part of the mortgage is due in 2007, the second part in 2009, the third element in 2010 and the final part in 2011.
Was it a 20 year mortgage?
Mr. Murtagh
It was a 15 year mortgage.
(Mr. Murtagh circulated three photographs showing the premises in question before, during and after construction)
I note that the "no parking" regulations are not being observed.
It is in a tourism brochure.
The point made by the Comptroller and Auditor General is that there is a departure into a commercial area, and once in that area, commercial rules and regulations must apply in order to protect the sponsor, to so speak, which in this case is the VEC. There is nothing wrong with the end product, but the modus operandi in proceeding in that direction could cause problems, not just for the committee but for the VEC itself.
The Comptroller states that for a number of years the committee sought the recognition of the Department for the Newport Outdoor Education Centre which is recognised by the Department to receive funding etc. Recognition was never given and the VEC was informed of that position on a number of occasions. Therefore, you were venturing into an area which could have a great deal of uisce faoi thalamh. He also states that the committee received a verbal promise of funding for the Newport Outdoor Education Centre from the Tipperary Enterprise LEADER Group provided a limited company was established and community involvement was evident. The company, Ionad Forbartha Tuatha agus Gnó Slí Féilim Teoranta was formed but funding was not received.
Mr. Murtagh
That is from LEADER.
No funding was received?
Mr. Murtagh
Not from LEADER.
Why?
A familiar old story.
Mr. Murtagh
As you will be aware, there were serious problems with the initial LEADER programme in Tipperary.
They promised three thousand——
You said a verbal promise.
Mr. Murtagh
Correct.
Verbal promises are very dangerous in this kind of business.
Mr. Murtagh
I accept that.
Recognition must be had for the fact that there was no written promise.
Mr. Murtagh
I accept that.
I draw attention to the penultimate paragraph of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report which states that notwithstanding the above considerations, the Department is of the view that the actions taken in these instances do not accord with the appropriate principles of public finance, in particular with the proper segregation of current and capital expenditures, etc.
While applauding and lauding the proposal and what the committee set out to do, I would be concerned to achieve a freehold situation as quickly as possible and to ensure that an ongoing liability does not fall on the committee.
The last paragraph in the Comptroller and Auditor General's note states that the issues arising from the audit query are being addressed in the context of new controls systems, procedures and reporting formats which are currently being developed by the Department for the VEC sector. The committee would like the Department of Education and Science to come forward within three months with those proposals. What exactly are the new formats, procedures and control systems proposed for the entire VEC sector? We have now established that the Department was aware, at least through the minutes, and decided not to do anything about it, so it is a bit rich for it now to be in correspondence with the VEC when the C & AG raises it, when it did not take the initiative. The Department deserves to be given a slap on the wrist for that. I must also slap you on the wrist. Luckily, things went right.
I am also concerned that we do not have your up to date reports. I will, therefore, adjourn consideration of matters for three months.
Mr. Purcell
We also had a difficulty in completing the auditing for reasons of scheduling. It has got into our cycle for the audits of much larger organisations. With your permission, Chairman, we will do our utmost within six months to have all the reports up to date given that we would have the co-operation of the VEC.
We will specifically schedule Tipperary VEC for six months time in the hope that all accounts are up to date. We will return to it in October. Mr. Murtagh, for how many schools are you responsible?
Mr. Murtagh
Six schools and approximately 2,500 students.
What is the total staff of the schools?
Mr. Murtagh
The total staff is 168.
That includes teaching and other staff?
Mr. Murtagh
Yes, teaching staff, plus 18 clerical and administration and seven caretakers; almost 200.
Go through the figures again.
Mr. Murtagh
There are 168 teachers, 18 clerical and administration and just over seven caretakers.
How many staff does the VEC have?
Mr. Murtagh
The administration staff is currently 18. That is head office and the schools.
Do you have any internal audit procedure or function in the VEC?
Mr. Murtagh
We do not have a formal internal audit procedure.
You do not have an internal auditor?
Mr. Murtagh
No. There is no provision for internal auditing, although within the past year the Department of Education and Science has established a procedure in relation to the European Social Fund audit whereby a number of internal auditors have been appointed on a regional basis, so that should help the situation.
When we come back to this in three months time we can talk about internal audit provisions for vocational education committees, given that many vocational education committees choose to have their own. Explain how you keep a check on spending in the different schools. How do you control and check that the money is not being wasted or misspent or that there cannot be fraud or inefficiency?
Mr. Murtagh
We have a procedure in terms of budgeting and managing the accounts. Each school is allocated a budget on an annual basis and the expenditure is monitored against that budget. The invoices are submitted by each of the schools and the centres to the VEC office and they are checked and monitored by the VEC staff, both in terms of the appropriateness of the expenditure and in terms of how it fits within the overall budgetary situation.
Are they checked against budget ever four weeks, three months, every month?
Mr. Murtagh
Currently we operate on a monthly basis. At meetings of principals each month we consider the financial returns for the previous month and look at trends and so on.
So if there are any deviations from budget you will spot them.
Mr. Murtagh
Yes.
Is there scope for taking corrective action, or what happens if there is deviation?
Mr. Murtagh
The procedure we are using now, where it is done on a monthly basis, means that if there are problems they are detected early in the year and it is possible to take corrective action. Doing it on monthly basis gives the control. We believe it is very important to involve the principals, that is, the managers of each centre, in the finances and make sure they fully understand what is going on and that they take responsibility. That is what is happening.
In respect of each school a budget is prepared and allocations are made for each subhead across each monthly period.
Mr. Murtagh
Yes. We also report to the Department of Education and Science on a monthly basis.
On each school?
Mr. Murtagh
On the overall scheme.
Okay. Tell me about the finance division. Who is in charge of the financial side?
Mr. Murtagh
Mrs. Brophy.
What is her position?
Mr. Murtagh
She is a senior staff officer.
How many staff are there in that area?
Mr. Murtagh
Four.
Very good. I will adjourn this examination for six months until next October. It will go on the agenda automatically for the meeting following six months from now. I hope everything is up to date by then. Meanwhile we will ask the Department of Education and Science to come forward within three months - next July - with details of the new financial procedures they are concerned with for the VEC sector generally.
We said earlier that because of problems in the Department of the Taoiseach we would not have that meeting. We have to elect a vice-chairman and I propose that we meet briefly in private session for that purpose next week at a date to be agreed. The next public session will be on Thursday, 27 April, when we will be dealing with the Carlow Institute of Technology, the Dundalk Institute of Technology, the Letterkenny Institute of Technology and the Tallaght Institute of Technology. The meeting will commence at 10 a.m.
Mr. Murtagh
I thank you, Chairman, the C & AG and his staff, the Department of Education and Science and my staff.
Thank you. The meeting is now adjourned.
The witnesses withdrew.
The Committee adjourned at 11.38 a.m.